Ever notice how economic theory is a lot like religion?

Yeah, they all have their brilliant founders and pretty theories about what should happen. Once implemented, one way or another, they often turn to shit. But, oh no, don't ever blame the results of the economic or religious system on its very structure. Fallout is due to a perversion of ideas, decay, and the failings of mankind. Adam Smith no more wanted monopolies than Jesus Christ wanted the Crusades! Its the humans that are stupid...who cannot reach enlightenment. But if you just believe it, it will come true!

I see people scrambling here to apologize for our current system, and call it everything but capitalism. But isn't it capitalism that enabled this system--call it corporatism--to form by allowing disparity to grow, and subsequently, the consolidation of political and economic power? Isn't it capitalism that emphasized rewarding capital over labor, such that after many generations, the owners of capital amassed so much that they could directly influence policies regulating their activities? But no matter how many times capitalism leads to failure, the Believers will cling to the notion that in its pure form it can do no wrong; a form, mind you, that its very structure undermines. They counter the failure by claiming its not truly capitalism! Oh yes, and it was perverted Catholicism that caused the inquisition....not pure Christianity!

Its as if no one wants to look at empirical facts. They cede rational thought to theories or beliefs that sound beautiful and make their hearts go aflutter. And by disowning or relabeling anything that just happens to turn out bad, they will never have to actually debate their belief. Instead, they get to test it all over again!

Here is what I see. I see a bunch of elite & powerful people tossing out pretty ideas about economic and religion to control and exploit people. In each field they have made believers who will not face facts. These believers follow blindly, exacerbating the problem. The very practice of belief turns them into better workers for the system, and better exploiters of others (or themselves). And at the end of the day, it all goes to make those rich people richer. The longer the people continue to believe, the more they will be taken advantage of and the richer those at the top will get.

Sometimes it seems that humans love to believe more than they hate being taken advantage of; and these beliefs...oh, they will do anything to avoid parting with them.

Sorry...just some random thoughts

God's work at his Federal hearings. NEW YORK (The Borowitz Report) - Goldman Sachs' Chief Executive Lloyd Blankfein's comment that bankers are doing "God's work" came under fire today from one of the longest-standing allies of the firm, Satan, the Prince of Darkness.

Atrocities are usually soon to follow.

If it's corporatism, then it's Fascism. Ask Mussolini - he should know!

Because no matter how often it fails, no matter how many people it kills, Capitalism is touted as THE ONLY ANSWER...the one true religion, you might say.

The funny thing is, one should not be considered an Atheist for pointing out that people are worshiping pieces of paper...but the world is a funny place.

When American people wake up from the propaganda, we can start actually learning about many options and variations of economic systems and tools and instrument and start envisioning new ways of building our community and live our lives peacefully. That is how many South American countries recovered from militaristic dictatorship and started to re-build their democracy. Many American people are indoctrinated only one version of economic system as "the only way to do things". There are many ways of doing things and we are smart enough to create a new society.

"Fallout is due to a perversion of ideas, decay, and the failings of mankind."

Even if a system fails to work due to the failings of mankind that would mean the system itself is a failure. If a system fails to work with mankind then what good is it? We're not implementing a system for a flock of geese.

And thats a challenge. The believers of capitalism claim its success is due to its ability to thrive and feed on human greed; such greed that seems to absorb and destroy the system. But how about a system that abates such greed by satisfying everyone's basic needs, yet not irrationally rewarding greed? Developing such a system, around creatures as volatile as humans, is no easy feat whatsoever. Implementing it when the most powerful of the greedy people are in charge is even more difficult.

Ultimately, I think a mixed economy comprised of socialized services and private employee-owned enterprise is the way to go. Though, I seriously doubt the owners of private industry would give such an experiment a shot in hell, being they would eventually have to give up the ownership that makes them perpetually richer.

consider alternatives. In Europe and in Asia, various economic models including Marx and Engels along with Keynesian economic systems are equally taught in middle schools and high schools. They are more knowledgeable about various theories at least than most people in the US. There are more options in their heads, not like a blind faith in a religion.

And if now is not a good time for debate and education, it never will be!

It's been kind of shocking to me, coming from a strong scientific background, to learn how deeply flawed the theories behind many of our modern-day economic policies are. Unfortunately, economics is so heavily politicized at the moment that a reality-based approach seems unachievable.

I'm becoming more of a nihilist by the day. We can't fix the broken system because we can't get past the spin and distortion relentlessly promulgated by a class of greedy parasites who have infiltrated our media and our government. If we let it burn, the ones who get hurt won't be the ones who deserve to get hurt, but there's always the chance the proletariat will finally revolt.

Fat chance. Now we have I-Pads. :)


What if the elite finally figure out a way to augment the liberalistic equation that balances exploitation against social order (worker happiness)? What if they can continually perpetuate this system by pacifying the people with worthless plastic garbage that makes them happy being on the low end of the totem pole?

Credit alone has vastly changed the satisfaction level of workers; they can now have a nice "standard of living", but be a single paycheck away from the street and have no chance in hell at upward social mobility. Credit has enabled numerous people to work to their deaths in a complacent state that is far removed from revolt.

Sometimes I do not necessarily have confidence that things will significantly change. If everyone is so happy, in the majority, is that so bad? Or is the injustice and exploitation that casts some of those indebted workers occasionally on the street worth fighting against? I think that liberalism would state that it is a fight, for the individual, against exploitation, that we must fight.

http://www.amazon.com/Worldly-Philosophers-Lives-Economic-Thinkers/dp/068486214X

Very interesting and accessible without a ton of equations.

It is used as economy 101 in many colleges. Read it... easier than any other economic books you can find. It is published by Seven Stories (www.sevenstories.com)

http://www.mindfuleconomics.com/

Mindful Economics
How the U.S. Economy Works, Why it Matters, and How it Could Be Different

Table of Contents

Introduction

Chapter 1 Economic Systems
Institutions
Basic Economic Processes: Production, Distribution and Consumption
Capitalism
Socialism and Pluralism
Conclusion

Chapter 2 The Cash Nexus: Households, Corporations and the Market System
The Market System
Households
Businesses
The Corporation
The History of the Corporation is the History of Capitalism
Conclusion

Chapter 3 Conflict in the Cash Nexus: Labor Unions and Business Associations
The Myth of Laissez Faire
Monopolies, Trusts and Business Associations
Popular Opposition
Business Associations
Labor Unions
Conclusion

Chapter 4 Government and the Ascent of Capitalism
Government and the Construction of the Capitalist System
Government as a Forum for Democracy
Government and Public Services
Government Fiscal Policy
Conclusion
Chapter 5 The U.S. Financial System Part I: Money and Banks
Financial System's Sources and Uses of Money
The Financial Economy and the Real Economy
Money
Coins and Paper Currency
The Tortured History of American Money
American Depository Institutions
The Federal Reserve System, "The Fed"
Conclusion: Money and Democracy

Chapter 6 The U.S. Financial System Part II: Wall Street, Stocks and Bonds
Corporate Capitalization and Investment Banks
Stocks
Stock Classifications and Indexes
Stock Valuation
Stock Markets and Stock Trades
Institutional Investors
Bonds
Government and Corporate Bonds
Conclusion: Wall Street and Capitalism

Chapter 7 America's Umbilical Cord: The International Economy
The Internationalization of Economic Activity
Global Economic Institutions
American Trade Deficits and Debt
Conclusion

Chapter 8 The U.S. Capitalist Machine
Key Economic Indicators
Business Cycles
Post World War II Business Cycles
Conclusion: The Capitalist Machine and the Well-Being of the Population

Chapter 9 The Growth Imperative: Prosperity or Poverty
Consumerism: Nurture not Nature
Throughput and Limits
The Growth Imperative and the Depletion of Non-Renewable Resources
The Growth Imperative and Global Warming
The Growth Imperative and a Plutonium Economy
The Growth Imperative and the Overuse of Renewable Resources
The Fallacy of the Technological Fix
Conclusion: Prosperity or Poverty of Growth
Chapter 10 Sweet Delight and Endless Night: Polarization in America
Measuring Economic Inequality
Causes of Income Inequality
Monopsony Capitalism
Political Inequality
Information Inequality in Commercial Media
Conclusion

Chapter 11 Financial Market Instability
Speculation and the Pattern of Financial Market Instability
Early Signs in Biblical Times
Tulip Mania of 17th Century Holland
South Sea and Mississippi Bubbles
Speculation and Industrial Capitalism
The Crash of 1929
Booms and Busts at the Turn of the Third Millennium
Conclusion

Chapter 12 The Mindful Economy, Part I: Redrawing the Institutional Map
Mindfulness
Values-Based Core Principles of a Mindful Economy
Institutional Embeddedness
Conclusion

Chapter 13 The Mindful Economy, Part II: Mindful Ownership and Mindful Finance
From Globalization to Localization
Non-Capitalist Cooperatives
Principles for Cooperative Governance
Starting a Cooperative
Small Business and Public Enterprise
The Mindful Economy and Community-Based Money and Finance
Conclusion

Chapter 14 The Mindful Economy, Part III: Mindful Economics and Sustainable Practices
Environmental Sustainability
The "Three Es" of Sustainable Development
Sustainable Practices
Win-Win-Win Fallacies
Conclusion

Conclusion

Like in Relgion the ideas are great on paper till human nature interferes.

Politicians don't listen to economists or economic theory. If people became more aware of economic theory they would be able to understand how the powerful screw them over. The only reason they get away with it is because the masses have almost no understanding of economic theory, the Federal Reserve, and econometrics. The vast majority of people simply don't have the capacity make informed decisions about policy.

Do you even know about economic theory? Where did you get your degree in economics?

The direction of the nation's economy than the entire federal government. He is an economist, not a politician.

And I never went out of my way to learn about it in one. Early exposure in high school led to an aversion to it at a young age, while learning about nothing more than vague concepts and graphs without context; to me it was like retarded mathematics. Of course I would not seek more of that later on in college.

It isn't until I was involved in the workforce that I became interested in the organization of labor and capital, and the politics that determine them. It wasn't until later that I understood how much philosophy is actually involved in economics, and how the field is also about addressing the human condition. I jumped into the field independently, with bias, learning much from biased sources.

Regardless, I know enough not to religiously believe in any general theory as some panacea. I know enough to see failure when it comes about, and to recognize the pain that comes with it.

I think its sad that people are not exposed at an earlier age to economics and philosophy (and their overlap); in the US, you learn only about American politics and briefly about American economics. Perhaps it would lead to a much more well-rounded workforce, though, that would not be in the interest of the controlling parties.

Economics requires that hypothesis be supported with qualitative data. Theory isn't divined and adhered to religiously. I suggest moving into economic journals and more scholarly sources.

Americans need more exposure to economics so they can come to informed conclusions about policy. This would make it apparent that concentrated wealth is manipulating the system.

I think a large part of the problem is that people believe in economic theory rather than subject the ideas to the scientific process. If the actual data proves them wrong, they alter their perception of the data or completely ignore it in order to continue clinging to their belief. That is very much like religion.

For example, if capitalism fails to allocate resources efficiently and improve the aggregate standard of living of a society, people will simply claim the current system isn't actually capitalism. No...it must rather be "corporate fascism" or some other vague term to separate the actual results from the system in place. They will claim such wild things like the system is being ran by Pharisees perverting their sacred teachings.

Some economic theory is simply untestable and merely philosophical too. For example, why is capital superior to labor? Why does risk deserve more reward than work? If you justify this by explaining that prioritizing these concepts amount to more economic growth (and also more disparity), you must first accept the premise that more growth paired with disparity is always "better" (but by what criteria). The very cornerstone of many economic theory rests on unproven premises about rights of man, rights of the state, promotion of individuals (or the commons), etc. Before the math even enters into the equation to design a system, one must first accept a series of "beliefs".

Hicks didn't ride into town on a donkey with IS-LM carved into a tablet. Economic theory is rooted in rigorous analysis of relevant variables.

As far as your example is concerned:
Simplifications such as capitalism, socialism, and communism are generalities. Each countries system is unique. It is a tie dye, you can't call it one color.

Economics doesn't make value judgments. It explains how fiscal and monetary variables react to changes. It isn't going to tell you what is "right" or "wrong".

The unproven premise is that people will act rationally.

We don't always understand everything we need to get something we want, so we develop a plan, and sometimes it works and sometimes it needs a tweak or two. But, sometimes we don't even understand how the plan works, we just follow the directions and hope our faith is well founded.

When analyzing the economy I doubt we have to pay any attention at all to beliefs.

Our civilization is a kind of bacteria feeding on fossil fuels. Our population explosion is just a temporary thing. After that we're just a marker in the fossil record; a mass extinction event.

An automobile or an iPad is much less sophisticated and much less interesting than an ordinary cockroach. The society that attributes any great importance to such temporary and impermanent "consumer goods" has little depth.

Our civilization will collapse and there won't be any reason to attribute the collapse to anything but resource depletion and climate change. What we believed won't matter. Our economic theories were stupid, the biology inevitable. We ate everything like a mindless swarm of locusts and then we died. The End.

:)

It is so many different things to different people at different times.

It seems to be working just fine. That's the problem.

People have mood swings, so does their economy.

Forget about Marxist mumble jumble, the USSR also failed.

Or, does someone want to pitch me some baloney about Saint Ronnie taking them out?

:rofl:

Its a bipolar economic system, and the highs are so good that it eventually always refuses to take its medicine. When each bust period arrives, a lot of people feel a lot of pain. So I ask, are those highs really worth it over the long run?


"Forget about Marxist mumble jumble, the USSR also failed."

I wasn't really around to thoroughly study if Marxism was truly implemented with good faith (or merely used at times to exploit the people) in the USSR. What I will suggest though is that perhaps any one pure system really isn't the only way to go for every people through every period. Taking a little here and a little there might not be the worst idea in the world. Certain state enterprises have been very successful in the world, as well as certain private enterprises. In many cases, both flavors have failed to meet the needs of the people acting alone. Mixed economies often compensate for the failings of the other (and the US is, in a small way, a mixed economy with major capitalistic emphasis).

Now you're talking. It seems to me that most real world economies are actually hybrids.

My sole point is that the capitalist component of a hybrid economy goes through booms and busts. Trying to fight it with almighty Adderall dollars only seems to make it much worse. Sometimes people just need a break from go, go, go, spend, spend, spend.

At any rate to answer your original question, yes, economics is a religion.

:rofl:

:rofl: