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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:00 PM
Original message
Hello, DUers! Time for the Friday Afternoon Challenge Question!
IMG]

What was it that made an object such as this so avidly sought after in the 16th century? Details, please.

Extra credit: what is this object’s specific meaning?

Please, folks, no reverse googling...this is for the enjoyment of our DU art lovers!
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secondwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Is this metal or wood, and how large is it?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. I don't know but not huge
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blogslut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
2. A guess
It was sought after because in the 16th century, it was an antique?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. At the time, it was anything but an antique...
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Er, that was a hint folks...
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
3. Does it have anything to do with the shroud? It looks like the face on the shroud.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. You mean the Shroud of Turin?
No.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. It is George Harrison's first mock up for the My Sweet Lord 45 cover...
No seriously, its Pewter and it is Jesus in his college years...
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MzNov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. I give up

it's over my head. And apparently over this guy's head as well.

I don't think it's Jesus, but I don't know anything about religion. Looking forward to the answer tho.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. Anything to do with Knights Templar? n/t
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. No.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
11. Something to do with The Reformation? n/t
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. No.
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. Something to do with dispensations?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. No.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. Protection against a plague?
Throwing darts again :D
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. It could be...
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
18. I'm stumped. Looks like a talisman of some kind. nt
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. It was but not the big reason it was sought after...
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
19. Here is a hint.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Ahah!
Panini! That gave it away!

You put this thing on a piece of bread and then into a panini press to get an image of Jesus on your toast!!!

I know that's it.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I KNEW somebody would pick up on that!
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 04:40 PM by CTyankee
I am perplexed that the word is used in the place this photo was taken but I am guessing that it was used in the religious sense. Gotta go back to my Italian dictionary here...
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. dupe, delete
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 04:39 PM by CTyankee
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Focus on which woman is being depicted here and you have part of the answer.
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asjr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Is it a door knocker?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. No, but it kinda looks like one...
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I'm stumped. Besides, I like it as a "branding iron for the Lord"
:D
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. In a sense it was. It had to do with what the woman in the statue did for Christ.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. A bearded woman?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. No, it is Jesus.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
27. I don't have a clue
so I'll follow the thread for answers
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Another clue
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 04:57 PM by CTyankee


Here is another of this type of object.

This object represents a "way" that some people today take, for historical and for religious purposes...
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. Cookie cutter?
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. "Way" as in pilgrimage? n/t
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #34
50. Yes.
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #50
57. As in "stations of the cross?" n/t
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
54. Something to do with Calvinism/Puritanism?
Just guessing
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
35. A pendant indicating membership in a church/monastery? nt
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. You are VERY close!
But what did you have to do to get the object? And why was it so popular?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Aid in the Crusades? I'm no history genius, I might be WAY off! nt
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 05:25 PM by blondeatlast
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Brother Buzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
36. A get out of jail medallion?
As soon as a coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. You are right in your descrption that it is a kind of medallion.
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Brother Buzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. reformation? martyr?
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Crystal Clarity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
37. St. Patrick's image and his wish to drive the snakes out-of Ireland?
LOL!

Ok another wildly crazy guess... again... :eyes: But the round outer part and Christlike/St appearance urged me to throw this out there...
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
40. OK. The woman is St. Veronica...
and she is holding a cloth that supposedly wiped the brow of Jesus as he was led to Golgotha (none of this is mentioned in the Gospels). Jesus' sweat left his image on the cloth (which is kept above the statue in St. Peter's). She then used it to cure people.

So I guess that the amulet is some sort of magic cure from the 16th century.

Close enough?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. You have the saint and the place. I don't know if it was considered a "cure."
But it had to do with the place.

BTW, how did you know who/where the statue was?
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. I found it here:
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 05:19 PM by El Supremo
http://saintpetersbasilica.org/Statues/StVeronica/StVeronica.htm

BTW, this is the spot where Pope Julius II laid the first stone of St. Peter's on April 18, 1506.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. How did you know to go to that site?
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El Supremo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. I figured that it was Italian Rennaisance...
and guessed that it was St. Peter's Basilica then I looked for statues of women at that site.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. I think this statue is already in the Baroque era as the sculptor (whose
name I forget) was a contemporary of Bernini. Bernini supposedly asked the sculptor where the wind came from to blow Veronica so heavily and the sculptor said it was from the flaws in the ceiling that Bernini designed that let all the wind in...kinda bitchy wasn't it?
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
41. Printing press impression?
At least, I think the statue and woman you're referring to is Veronica and her veil. She wiped away the blood and sweat on Jesus' face during the carrying of the cross. According to legend, Christ's face was burned into the cloth.

So, the item is about transferring Christ's image, maybe.

After 1500, the printing press was roaring to go.

So maybe it was for printing Christ's image with the new presses?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. No, not anything to do with a printing press.
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Allegience pendant?
The only major 16th century religious development I can think of is the Protestant Reformation. Something people wore to profess loyalty to the Church?

The image reminds me of a Loyola related painting I saw once. I know the Jesuits were late 16th century. Maybe something to do with their order.

I'm stumped. ^^
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. No, it was definitely NOT having to do with the Reformation.
Protestantism rebelled against religious images...
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. I was thinking counter-reformation related
It's an interesting piece, though.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Oh, yes, now I see what you meant. It might be a form of counter reformation
stuff...
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IcyPeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
44. Oh I just got it...
the first one is Jesus with a steering wheel

and the second one is

all roads lead to heaven.

It's advertisements for a driving school.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. The second one is the more "famous" one.
A lot of people know about what the second one represents (if not that particular object itself)...
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #44
61. used to emboss communion eucharists
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
51. Can we Google now?
By this time in the thread I figure the Google is ok. Also, what is "reverse Googling?"

I think I might have an idea, but it was after I googled St. Veronica
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Oh sure. I just didn't want the techies who self confess that they don't anything about art
to hijack a thread that art folks like...
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. OK, then I have two guesses
One has to do with the possible destruction of the Veil during the sacking of Rome, and perhaps these medals were representative of the image on the veil

Or

Something about the veil being used as a protection against drought, since the veil wiped the sweat from Jesus' face, it supposedly has power to overcome droughts.


???
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. It is not that.
Another big hint by Lucas van Leyden:
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Well those are pilgrims and they have that image on their hats
So it must be the icon of a particular type of pilgrim?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Brava Duer! 90% is done!
Does anybody want to venture a guess why such "icons" (actually they were pins) were SO popular (religion is secondary)?
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Prism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Pilgrims to the veil seeking cures?
That's all I got ^^
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #67
72. When I saw your OP today, the first thing that popped into my mind was
The Pilgrimage by Paolo Coelho, but it's been years since I read that.

But I remember that had a "passport" of some sort that was stamped at each ... stop? station? not sure what they're called.

Perhaps this was the token collected at one of the stops?
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #72
87. Evidently, these badges were stamped out and sold to people going on the pilgrimage.
So they were considered "collectors items." They were also a low class "status symbal."

They were individualized to each pilgrimage. The one in my OP was the pilgrimage to the veil of ST. Veronica in Rome. There were others...including the Compestelo in Spain...and people do that trail today...
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
63. The scallop has to do with the Way Of Saint James
A pilgrimage route

But I don't know the Christ head on the cross...
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. We are getting close to the answer here!
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 05:40 PM by CTyankee
I KNEW the scallop shell would give it away...but who knows about Veronica?
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Santiago? n/t
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. Second one, yes.
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
70. It's a VERNICLE
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Yep. Why was it so popular to have one?
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. to prove they had made the pilgrimage
Edited on Fri Jun-11-10 06:04 PM by musette_sf
(in the days before iPhones and Twitpix)
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. This was discussed in an article entitled "Art, class and wealth" by Rembrandt Duits
in a book called "Viewing Renaissance Art." He talks about these badges as the first instance of mass production of items for a form of "conspicuous consumption." It showed that the person wearing the badge had travelled to far and exotic places. The objects were coveted because they bestowed "prestige" on their owners. Actually, these things were stamped out prodigiously. They were disdained for a long time as not being worthy of "art." But of course it was a kind of decorative art and has rich historical meaning...
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Ugh. That just so bastardizes it
Might as well have been a toast branding iron

Good one, as usual! :thumbsup:
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. Ok so it was the 16tg century version of flavor flav's clock? Religious bling?
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. "my Dad went to Santiago
and all I got was this crummy vernicle"
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. wow, I knew reading Chaucer would come in handy
someday...
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Duer 157099 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. LOL
that'd be funny to photoshop that onto the shirt of a pilgrim in one of those old paintings...
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. Ha, that's about the size of it! If Dad would give it up!
Evidently, these people wore them as their own badges of honor and fame. They probably weren't about to give them up!
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #79
89. Actually, the Vernicle was only applied to a pilgrimage to Rome to see
the veil of St. Veronica. The pilgrimage to Santiago de Compestelo was a differnt one...
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MyNameGoesHere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
76. This was an supposed image of Christ before the
shroud of Turin. Allegedly when Veronica wiped the alleged Christ's face of mud, sweat and blood. This started some cult Devotion to the Face
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
82. Ok..that was fun.
The guesses were good, some funny, and I like the way you gave the hints.
Even tho I had no idea what the art stuff was about, I liked the historical aspect of the answer.
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
83. I have one just like it I bought in a head shop.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. I love it! Art lives!
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
84. darn
I had to go to the grocery store and missed it.

But I'm not sure I would have known this one...some good guesses

I'll look for the Friday challenge again. :)
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. This was tough. These badges are not considered great art so they have
been neglected in museums. I think the ones I showed were in British museums. Not so much here in the U.S.

Too bad. They were cheaply produced and stamped out and heralded "mass consumption" but nonetheless they had an art historical significance, so that alone would be, to me, interesting....
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. They wouldn't mean much to us, but they'd be treasured (just
as some of my not-so-original, but still handmade stuff from my vacation in Malaysia was) for what they represent.

This was fun! Love the backstory.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Funny that mass production of tourist items started way back then!
Nothing is new...
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-11-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #86
92. interesting
I wonder if my Obama medallion is going to stand the test of time...I also have a deluxe 'Obama debating
Hillary'commemorative plate from someplace like Big Lots or TJ Maxx. ($2). I'm sure the value will go up...eventually ;-)

thanx CTyankee
I'll be back...

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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. Next week will be easier I'm betting...
but DU folks are really, really smart and knowledgeable. It's hard to stump this crowd!
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-12-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Äww! Grr! Grrrr!
The path of the pilgrimage to St Juan de Compostela starts not far from my home town.

A friend and I have contemplated going on that pilgrimage, although starting it much farther south (we don't have THAT much vacation time).

Oh, if only there wasn't this blasted time difference! By the time I'm awake all the fun is gone and the riddle has been solved (*feeling sorry for myself*).
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. I usually post the challenges at a little before 5 pm on Friday's so
people who work can get home. If you are in Europe I guess you would have to stay up late for it.

If I post any earlier there doesn't seem to be a lot of people on DU and I realize this kind of post isn't something that is everyone's cup of tea...
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tango-tee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. I understand... still... hrmf.... sniff.
Regardless, I love your Friday challenges, even if I'm too early / too late!

Already looking forward to the next one, dear CTyankee.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. You are a sweetheart! Thanks for the kind words...
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