'Eve teasing' craze takes a terrible toll

"After that, he became more aggressive and bombarded her with crude language, pulling off her scarf and slapping her face."

This boorish behavior by guys certainly happens on urban and suburban streets in the US. I'm pretty sure it was standard in the American South until 30-40 years ago for any African American woman under 30 walking on a street to get treated like this by gangs of white guys. Many teenage girls I knew (including myself) of any race/ethnicity got stalked by guys (always in groups--they don't harass you like that when they're one on one) on a pretty regular basis until their mid-20s.

So, of course, you're bothered and the biggest thing here is trying to assess whether there's a rape threat, 'cuz even here you're held responsible in the public mind, if not legally, if you're in certain public places alone and have the audacity to show any skin or be between the ages of 15-25.

For these girls, though, they interpret the harassment as an insult to their family and as if one type of rape has already occurred. The physical rape hasn't, but if it does, it seems they're taught it'll somehow be their fault, or at least their responsibility, for dishonoring their family. And their family's already being dishonored because these guys are harassing them and no bystanders (as the girl reported) are doing anything about it.

It seems to me these girls are feeling one of the worst kinds of internalized patriarchy and despising themselves for being the victim and living in terror that they cannot control the probability that they will be victimized (and held responsible for it) again. Their only socially acceptable recourse, the only way they feel they have to control the situation--to save their family honor (and prevent an honor killing? don't know if it happens there) is to kill themselves.

I hadn't connected that aspect of the culture to the suicides. I think you are right.

Africa, look at how domestic abuse and other violence is rising against women in the U.S.

I used to wonder all the time as a child why the world hated women so much. I came to the conclusion that the world hates women for bringing babies into the world. I think when the world is severely overpopulated as it is right now, the hatred against women increases exponentially.

I truly believe I will see in my lifetime, a global war break out between men and women. Maybe not organized with armies that wear uniforms, but I believe men will all unite to try to make women extinct, and we women will do our best to fight back. My guess is that once the female population is reduced to, say, 1 percent of its current levels, the woman-hating will lessen also and those few survivors might be treated decently.

I don't disagree that we could very easily be headed that way. The first division of our species is sex. Not race, not nationality, not religion, or any number of ways we divide ourselves. What's the first question asked when someone has a baby? "Is it a girl or a boy?"

Years ago I read "The Lefthand of Darkness" by Ursula LeGuin & it got me to thinking about this issue & why our species has so much hatred of the other sex? And yes, why is it that the hatred seems to be mostly men hating women? I came to a couple of conclusions. 1) Anger that men can never know for certain who the father of a child is. 2) Anger that, in regards to perpetuating the species, they need us more than we need them. At least, that is the case currently. A well stocked sperm bank & women would have little need for men, in terms of preservation of the species. But until science creates a viable womb to nurture & carry a baby to full term, they need us more than we need them. But if that artificial womb does happen, then look out, I think you may be right - it will be an all out war against women.

Have you read "The Handmaid's Tale" or "The Gate to Woman's Country"? "The Handmaid's Tale" is terribly depressing & disturbing, & it seems our culture is headed in that direction. "The Gate" is a much more upbeat story of how the sexes evolve their relationships to survive as a species. Both are sci-fi, but worth reading if you have an interest in this issue.

I just Googled artificial womb: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_uterus

snip...

Potential for controversy

Although the technology does not currently exist to raise an embryo from conception to full development outside of a human body, the possibility of such technology raises questions with respect to cloning and abortion. The elimination of the need for a living uterus would make cloning easier to carry out and yet harder for legal authorities to track. At the same time, the capacity to raise an unwanted fetus apart from the mother would allow the option of fetus adoption, but might raise concerns with respect to children born with no connection to a parent. Some pro-life groups argue that this would allow a father to have a choice in whether to carry a pregnancy to term.

with utter control for a lot of years. helpless, control, power, love. yet, a girl baby has a whole different dynamic going on.

:puke:

did a search on it.

nope....

cant read

In Sweden, the Men Can Have It All

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8538696

What I see is a backlash against women gaining rights. But I don't think there's more violence against women than there used to be, just that it is being reported more.

reported amongst friends. and it isnt something we women chat about. generally hold it close to vest

Just a few decades ago, women were almost universally blamed and stigmatized for their own rapes, and it's still that way in many cases. But it is getting somewhat better over time, it seems.

or 1 in 3 rapes on college campus. or 30 - 70% not reported, or paying for your own rape exam?

i dont see great strides in so many decades.

All I said is that more rapes and assaults are reported now than before. It's nowhere near adequate. I don't think "great strides" would be an appropriate description either.

i have heard that so much whenever talking about rape. inevitably, it is a male that says that.

i appreciate what you are saying

but when fbi says, 30-70% (clueless how many rapes) are not reported, it feels kinda dismissive of issue of rape and violence to women. like we can breath a sigh of relief, see.... not as bad as we thought.

i dont see it that way

i am not believing it either.

but thanks... not posting to argue.

I was responding to LiberalLoner's claim that "domestic abuse and other violence is rising against women in the U.S."

It was a mathematical point, not a moral one.

If I mention that I was a rape victim, the room goes silent.
People are still very uncomfortable about it, and they tend to stay away from you as if it were 'catching.'

Jacob Zuma only got off because of his connections and demagoguery.

It's about hierarchy and dominance. It has little to do with gender other than (putting on my heat shield) women are physiologically, neurologically, genetically, etc. more socially adaptive. And being so, are prone to supplicating or avoidance behavior rather than aggressive resistance.

When there is uncertainty, when things are changing rapidly, men (and other creatures with hierarchical social structures) tend to feel the impulse to establish "rules" "hierarchy". Why do you think a group of 9 year old boys will endlessly argue a point of law in a sandlot baseball game, rather than play. It's how they are wired.

What we fail to do, as a culture, is to direct that in positive ways. Instead we try to squash their innate impulses, which makes for frustrated, neurotic children.

This is exactly why feminism in America could suffer a real set back if our economic and/or environmental situation worsens.

aggressing against easy targets, like women.

Women tend to express anger and fear inwardly, by aggressing against the self.

I tend to agree with TalkingDog's comment downthread, but I hadn't ever thought of this before, misogyny being connected to population. Hmm, I have seen reports that pregnant women are at highest risk of victimization.

on a personal level, I do know the problem of overpopulation stresses me out QUITE a lot, and I guess I should admit to feeling angry at those who add to it. I never thought of other people feeling that way though, and never thought of acting out. Though, as TalkingDog pointed out, increased uncertainty (i.e. stress, chaos) is linked to aggression against weaker beings -- and the many consequences of overpopulation are certainly stressful.

"I truly believe I will see in my lifetime, a global war break out between men and women."

Yeah, maybe in a bad sci-fi movie. :eyes:

Eve - according to the Bible, the mother of human kind and "teasing" - a harmless way of getting under someone's skin.

Would anyone do this to their mother? I think not (or hope not anyway).

Harmless? Riiiight... There is no "teasing" here. This is sexual harrassment/battery. The creep in the article stalked her, took her scarf and slapped her. He drove her to hurt herself and therefore has a responsibility in her death.

In the US, 17.7 men and 4.5 women per 100,000 people commit suicide. The suicide rate is 11.1 per 100,000

In 1998 India, 12.2 men and 9.1 women per 100,000 people commit suicide. The suicide rate was 10.6 per 100,000

14 in a population of 1.2 billion is statistically small. 120,000 Indians will commit suicide this year.

So no biggie that 14 young women have taken their lives as a direct result of being harassed.

Thanks.

:sarcasm:

I don't doubt that harassment is an even bigger problem in India than it is in the US.

http://nitawriter.wordpress.com/2007/05/14/why-indians-commit-suicide/

don't you know that if you provide statistics rebutting a narrow ideological viewpoint, that makes you a bad human being?

Heaven forfend one provide a broader perspective on the complex dynamics of cultural or sociological activities.

feel as if there has been a war on against us by men.

I fail to share your world view. So, you in no way speak for all of "us".

You have a right to your feelings. They are perfectly valid. But feelings are not reality. Feelings are a filter which alters the perception of reality.

Memories are not reality. Memories are mutable. So how we respond to memories is mutable. If you are responding negatively to negative memories, that is unfortunate. But your memories can be changed. And your response to your memories can also be changed. Those are facts borne out by studies and experience.

How you feel about your life and your past is your choice. I choose to live in peace with the other 50% of the population. (excepting, of course, those that wish me harm...removing negative reactions to memories, in no way removes common sense caution)

I would like to make myself believe I was never raped when I was six years old. I would like to think there was something besides hate on my brother's face as he hurt me.

I would like to have better memories than that. How do I change those memories? How do I make them go away?

:hug:

Let's take something neutral, like stubbing your toe very badly.

When you do it, it hurts like a MF. You might even cry. That physical pain may last days (or only minutes). But unless you did something careless, so that you connect an emotion like embarrassment to the twinge you feel in your toe, there is no emotional content to the pain.

When you remember it weeks later, you don't feel anguish, guilt, fear etc. If you have connected embarrassment and the memory of the pain together, you may feel that flush of embarrassment when someone asks you later about your toe. But usually even that has passed after a few weeks. Time and reassessment of the memory of the incident have cast it in an entirely different light. It is literally encoded in your brain in a different way. You can't even access the feeling of the pain or embarrassment no matter how hard you may try. The memory of the incident is still there. But it is a series of facts without emotional content.

There are techniques that allow traumatized people war veterans, rape victims, PTSD sufferers, to remove the supercharged emotional content from their memories. Not for an hour or a day, but permanently. They gain the same type of distance from the emotional pain that you would have from your stubbed toe. You haven't forgotten that you stubbed your toe. You even remember that it hurt. You may be more cautious about walking around that corner in the future (or in my case past that firewood...broken toe) But the physical pain is no longer present and the emotional pain is equally distant.

Why then, aren't we all walking around free from our "demons"? Well, like anything it requires will and it requires work. You've got to hate the anguish of the memory and the person you are because of it, worse than you hate and fear being a different person. Some people don't know who they would be without all those negative things (scripts/boundaries/safeguards) because they've been "that" for so long. No forgiveness is required. (I'm not a big believer in forgiveness myself) No requirement that you "understand" why he hurt you. You never even have to think about him again if you don't want to. Some people are as addicted to who they are in anguish as others are addicted to cigarettes.

As for me: #1 I'm lazy. I don't have the energy to invest in being in pain. #2 I'm selfish. I'd rather use that energy on things I want to do or feel. #3 I truly believe in the concept of giving away your power. If you dwell on it and relive it, it may as well be happening. Because it feels that way. You have a choice. You are they only one who can make it. You are the only one who gets to make it. You can choose to respond differently.

I'll send you a couple of links in a PM. You don't have to look at them, you don't have to believe what they are offering (free BTW, no strings) you don't have to believe that it will work for you. But I've seen the teaching tapes for these techniques. I watched a Vietnam Vet who had been in a VA hospital since he returned for suicidal depression go from abject weeping to calm measured understanding of the incident that landed him there in less than half an hour. (what do the commercials say? Results may vary)

Unfortunately for me it didn't work quite that quickly, but as I said: will and work. You gotta want it. Good luck. It will be nice to know the new you.

Broad statistics are irrelevant to the topic and the post was a lame attempt to minimize the plight of these young women. A valid comparison would need to look specifically at suicides among women in the same age range and perhaps compare the rate among those who have been sexually assaulted to those who have not.

Simply posting the suicide rate over the entire population does not give us "a broader perspective on the complex dynamics of cultural or sociological activities." In fact, it gives us no perspective at all, it just trivializes the conversation toward inconsequential data. Real concerns and real pain reduced to a supposedly insignificant statistic.

that posters assumed the entirety of the reason behind the suicides was sexual harassment. That may not be how many posters in this thread feel, but re-reading them does not dissuade me from that view.

If that is indeed the viewpoint: These young women committed suicide solely because they were sexually harassed. Then THAT is an oversimplification that does little to fully address the problems, both overt and covert, leading to these suicides.

I agree, a direct comparison to another country or culture would be helpful. But it does not invalidate the idea that the numbers do not fall outside a statistical norm.

http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html (which unfortunately does not parse the data to the point of providing a cause)

U.S. Suicide Statistics (1990-2001)

Suicide Rates

Breakdown by Age Groups

(Rates Per 100,000)

Age 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001

5-14 0.8 0.7 0.9 0.9 0.9 0.9 0.8 0.8 0.8 0.6 0.8 0.7
15-24 13.2 13.1 13.0 13.5 13.8 13.3 12.0 11.4 11.1 10.3 10.4 9.9
25-34 15.2 15.2 14.5 15.1 15.4 15.4 14.5 14.3 13.8 13.5 12.8 12.8
35-44 15.3 14.7 15.1 15.1 15.3 15.2 15.5 15.3 15.4 14.4 14.6 14.7
45-54 14.8 15.5 14.7 14.5 14.4 14.6 14.9 14.7 14.8 14.2 14.6 15.2
55-64 16.0 15.4 14.8 14.6 13.4 13.3 13.7 13.5 13.1 12.4 12.3 13.1
65-74 17.9 16.9 16.5 16.3 15.3 15.8 15.0 14.4 14.1 13.6 12.6 13.3
75-84 24.9 23.5 22.8 22.3 21.3 20.7 20.0 19.3 19.7 18.3 17.7 17.4
85+ 22.2 24.0 21.9 22.8 23.0 21.6 20.2 20.8 21.0 19.2 19.4 17.5
65+ 20.5 19.7 19.1 19.0 18.1 18.1 17.3 16.8 16.9 15.9 15.3 15.3
Total 12.4 12.2 12.0 12.1 12.0 11.9 11.6 11.4 11.3 10.7 10.7 10.8


And this study examines sexual abuse -from harassment to rape and other physical abuse and their relationship to suicide and attempted suicide. I could not find a definitive percentage of the teen suicide rate citing sexual abuse as a cause.
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/193/2/134#SEC2
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content-nw/full/193/2/134/FIG1

Similar data is found in this PDF: http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/global_campaign/en/chap7.pdf

They provide an interesting correlation between religion and tendency toward suicide:

Religion has long been regarded as an important factor in suicidal behaviour. Research has shown that an approximate ranking of countries, by
religious affiliation, in descending order of suicide rates,is as follows:

. Countries where religious practices are prohibited or strongly discouraged (as was the case in the former communist countries of Eastern Europe and in the former Soviet Union).

. Countries where Buddhism,Hinduism or other Asian religions predominate.

. CountrieswheremanypeopleareProtestant.

. Countries that are predominantly Roman Catholic.

. Countries that are largely Muslim.

So in examination of the DATA, we find that there are other underlying causes CONTRIBUTING to these young women's suicides.

In trying to suggest that if one chooses to examine data to get a better overall picture of the possible causes of their suicides, one gives up sympathy or empathy for these young women's plights, you do many good people a grave disservice. It is not an either/or question. It is about finding the causes and helping to mediate them so these unfortunate incidents no longer occur.