About the girl rescued while sailing around the world (sorry!)

How does being a great sailor stop people from boarding ur ship and raping you?

Thats all i hear from people on TV and her parents... 'shes a great sailor and her boat was sound!'..


wtf does that have to do with interacting with others?

p.s.

sorry for talking about such a subject on DU, just needed to vent.


maybe im crazy and over protective, but my 16 year old isnt traveling around the world by themselves. I know that much.


p.s.s.

Im glad some of DUers live in a world where robbery, murder, and rape dont exsist on boats.
we know for A FACT that there are people who assault boats with weapons.
so if you feel like replying 'rape in the ocean wtf?!' , dont bother.

Although there's always hitchhiking around the world, or joining the army. Plenty of thrills.

But this kind of thing, for sure. Although the girl didn't choose to be born into privilege... I wonder, really, if her "spirit" was such that she would've found her way into this kind of thing regardless, or whether it was because of it. Nature vs. nurture. I have no idea.

Her father is a boat mechanic. She has 6 siblings. She worked incredibly hard for years to raise the funds needed for this trip.

Nonetheless she was presented opportunities that are not available to every girl growing up. My father was a plumber, so in many respects so was I, and if my father ran race cars, it would've been different, too. :shrug:

Still, I wonder, were her family not boaters, would she have sought out adventure in another venue? No way to ever know, I guess.

survive wish to climb mountains and all that other exciting stuff?

There are programs all over to help inspire intercity kids on the brink to aspire to adventurous and courageous things. Have you ever experienced an Outward Bound or Teen Challenge program?

Other organizations bring some of the neediest LA kids out to Catalina Island all the time to challenge and inspire them. Hopefully some of these kids will set high goals, even though others are telling them they can't do it - too young, too inexperienced. Perhaps one will be President some day.

Abby's family is by no stretch of the imagination wealthy or privileged. Her father is a boat mechanic and deliverer. Her mother homeshools seven children.

They had bake sales and t-shirt sales to raise money. Many good, talented and experienced people donated time, training, equipment and expertise to the effort.

The mischaracterizations and assumptions about these people are pretty astounding.

huge dreams. One wanted to be an artist. Some did want to climb mountains, etc.

I've heard this term used to describe the phenomenon where people try to bring down those who try to climb too high, accomplish more than they "should"

buy used clothes , mostly walk and anything else where they don't have to spend money. so they can spend most of what they make climbing mountains and other "exciting stuff".

to me it's not the money.

I just philosophically don't agree with thrill seekers.

She could have died. I am glad she did not, but she could have.

and don't go on about how teens can die doing ordinary things - some risks have to be taken in order to live any kind of life, but this risk does not have to be. It's just irresponsible. She could have missed out on the rest of her entire life.

who just suddenly decided to get out there. what it takes to be able to even start is so much that many kids, even wealthy ones would not do it.

it would be while doing the thing I love most.

Parents selling out their kid for fame and fortune.

his circumnavigation last year? Most people never heard of them before now despite Zac's having set a record. Know why? Because the family is not really seeking fame nor fortune.

Of course they're in it for fame and fortune. #1 kid didn't break that record they want to break, so they sent #2 out in a racing yacht at the wrong time of year to try to break the record that'd bring fame and fortune. What a bunch of irresponsible people those two parents are. The peak US sailing organisation refused to sponsor her because they considered what her parents were sending her to do was far too dangerous and it'd be irresponsible to sponsor her and encourage ever-younger kids to be sent out to break records. The guy who built her boat even said she wasn't mentally or physically equipped to carry out the attempt), and Ian Kiernan said she shouldn't have done it. People risked their lives saving this girl - they're the heroes and the people who should be applauded, not that girl and her selfish and arrogant family. How dare they be begging for donations to 'save' her boat when they haven't even offered to pay even a fraction of what the Australian govt spent on the search and rescue back because they claim they can't afford it! But all that irresponsibility and the risk to other people's lives is all forgotten by some people in the rush to turn examples of irresponsible parenting into some sort of aspirational warm and fuzzy moment. Someone close to these people need to bring them into reality and let them know that their behaviour is appalling and selfish...

I am butt poor and risk life and limb often, surfing, skating, sailing.
Why the hate?

When the story does not turn out so well, I find it upsetting that they died for nothing (or so it seems to me) and don't get much comfort out of "she died doing what she loved."

Having lost people to things like motorcycle accidents. Everyone is so sad and upset. The person got to die doing what they loved, but leave that carnage in their wake.

I would rather die doing something I love than live a little longer (but still die) having done nothing.

I mean say she didn't make this attempt, maybe in 2 years she dies in a car accident because a drunk driver jumps the center line.

Still just as dead.

stingy but they are bored with what money has afforded them and need dangerous thrills to make them feel alive.
Otherwise, they would sit in there mansions, eat specialty foods and watch movies in there $100,000 media rooms all day.
They would never need to go out because they are catered to. When adoration is desired they give something away.

These are the 2% that are controlling our world. 98% of us just use what their money produces and suffer from the effects
of the waste produced by that product. Maybe that is the way it has always been throughout human history and the 98% of us
should just bend over and take it up the rear end.

There are any number of life threatening thrills that don't cost a huge amount of money to get into.

You can buy a decent used sportbike for under a couple of thousand dollars and have cheap transportation that will send your adrenaline off the scale if you choose to ride it in an aggressive manner.

If you are really cheap and mechanically talented you can do it for well under a thousand..

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/mcy/1775969176.html

even that can be thrilling when rode properly :hi:

and from what I read her father pushed her to do it.

Most rape tends to be a crime of opportunity. Not much oppertunity on the open seas.

The girl was in more danger from mother nature than fellow humans.

youre telling me someone with weapons and the intent to rob people wouldnt attack it ?

is that not a crime of opportunity?

Piracy doesn't occur randomly, it happens in very specific locations for very specific reasons.

It occurs in areas where due to geography the massive (already slow) cargo ships are forced to slow down even more as they pass through natural bottleneck. This is what pirates would call a target rich environment.

So you have this massive slow moving boat, near the cost, in lawless area, with unarmed crew, worth hundreds of millions of dollars, moving in a straight line, backed up by the financial assets of the largest companies (tens or hundreds of billions of dollars).

Compare that to a small, very fast, highly manuverable boat, with a possibly armed crew, worth negligible amount of money, and backed up by an unknown entity.

If you were a pirate risking your life on a boarding operation which would YOU pick?

Even with all the odds stacked against giant cargo ships less than 1 in 1000 are attacked by pirates each year.

Generally those sailing around the world stay out of piracy infested waters because they can. They are going around the world to set a personal goal not maximize profits.

http://www.savethechandlers.com/

Pirates are operating farther afield, with faster boats.

Their case is unique because the pirates didn't simply throw them overboard and resell the boat.

is an insanely large place- hell, even locating one of our fleets when they are maintaining radio silence is an extremely hard thing to do.

The ocean is insanely large, and you'd have to be within a couple miles of the boat to even see it. Abby was sailing well outside shipping lanes, to minimize risk of collision with ships. So, if pirates were to intercept her, they would have to decide that going 2000 miles away (and return, towing the boat) was actually worth it; they would have to know her exact position , course, and speed so they could intercept her; and still get lucky as hell to find her. Piracy is a crime of opportunity, like a mugging. Muggers don't hang out in the desert hoping someone will pass by, they'll hang out in an urban center where there's plenty of potential victims and places to hide afterward. Pirates are going to hang out near shipping lanes, where there's a target rich environment, and close enough to their base that they can get to safe (for them) waters as soon as possible after the act.

don't know where you got the idea that sailboats are fast...few displacement hulls are.

Sailboats can't outrun pirates.

A larger boat is faster, so is a lighter boat for a given length. Jessica Watson averaged about 6 knots for her voyage in a 34' boat (26' waterline length) - which is about 140 miles a day. Abby's boat is 40', also with a 40' waterline length. It is also very light for it's size, and has water ballast for stability which can be pumped out when not needed. It is quite capable of averaging 8 knots... that Abby was barely averaging 5 indicates she was having problems handling the boat and sailing it to it's potential.

Particularly one with limited experience, and every 16 year old sailor qualifies as "limited experience". I suspect there are only a few sailors who have the experience to singlehandedly sail an Open 40 to its potential for any length of time. Wild Eyes is a VERY radical sailing design. The design philosophy of an open 40 is that you outrun storms, but as Ms Sunderland has found, that's not always possible.



Only in an optimum situation can max speeds be obtained. Too little wind, and there's not enough power to drive the boat. Too much wind and the pounding from waves forces you to slow down.

By virtue of the time of year Abby departed, she didn't encounter many optimum situations.

I've been sailing for far more years than Ms Sunderland has been alive, and I wouldn't attempt what she did in an Open 40. Peterson 44? Westsail? Valiant 40? Maybe. But I'd choose a better time of year.

It is not a boat which "sails itself and looks after the crew" so to speak. An Open 40 must be actively sailed, the sailor must constantly look after the boat - of course this is quite physically demanding, and raises serious questions about the judgement of Abby's parents in sending her out in such a boat (in which she had no experience).
However, only the smallest slug of a boat is going to average only 100 miles a day. A long distance sailor is going to either follow the trade wind route west about in the lower latitudes, or an east about route via the higher latitudes. Either is predominantly down wind, with a favorable current of about 1 knot. Jessica Watson was able to average about 140 miles per day, her boat was a mid 1960s design of moderate displacement and sail area, and a fairly short waterline - not a boat designed for optimum downwind speed, but a seaworthy boat none the less, and not physically demanding to sail. Abby's boat was designed for downwind speed - long waterline, light displacement, large sail area, and water ballast... easily capable of 20 knots of speed if actively sailed, but still capable of 8 knots downwind under reduced sail being steered by autopilot. That she was averaging far less either indicates she wasn't capable of sailing the boat, or her "expert yacht builder" father equipped and prepared the boat poorly.

And interesting debate would be what if their situations were reversed? My thought is Abby very likely would have been successful if she were sailing Jessica's boat and had Jessica's "team" preparing her and the boat, and selecting the weather window. OTOH, Jessica probably would have had the same difficulties handling Abby's boat that Abby did, and would have also been greatly hindered by the poor preparation and decision making (weather window) that caused Abby to fail.

Absolutely correct. I don't think Abby did anything wrong in the middle of the Indian ocean. All the mistakes happened far prior. It is fortunate that she survived them.

Tania Aebi's Varuna (Contessa 26) was a good choice for a solo circumnavigation, but as her book recounts, she was poorly prepared at her departure too because of her youth and inexperience.

She could have called it quits in Cape Town. But, does a 16 yo have the wisdom and maturity to tell parents and sponsors "it's to dangerous to sail this leg at this time"? Probably not. Even if she DID have the good judgement to decide not to sail then, I doubt she could have resisted the pressure from others to continue. That is why I think having teens make record-setting attempts is a bad idea.

and weighed 16 tons. This is really apples to oranges.

An extremely heavy 40' boat weighs about 20,000 lbs. (like an S&S 40' yawl I sailed to the Bahamas when I was 13yo-many years ago), a fairly light one 10-12,000 lbs. ultra light would be under 10,000 lbs. (like a 40' Nelson-Marek I sailed to Bermuda and back 15 years ago). Taking a guess, I'd say Abby's boat weighs about 8-9000 lbs without stores and water ballast.

planing hull boat and wonder if she got dismasted because of being simply overpowered and had too much sail up.

People we have talked to on her team think she might have pitch poled.

A fast enough speed must be maintained in order for the rudder to respond. Too slow, and the boat just wallows, waiting for a cross sea to knock it down. As I mentioned in an earlier post, an Open class boat (any light displacement boat, really) must be actively sailed - sheets adjusted constantly, sails reefed then unreefed an hour later, hours steering by hand... its a physically demanding boat to sail, you don't cleat the sheets, turn on the auto pilot, and sit below and ride the storm out. The boat must be sailed constantly.

Just watching that video scares the hell out of me for Abby being in that same ocean, on a smaller boat, all alone. It's amazing she didn't die.

That boat was 50% larger than Abby's (but a similar design), and there were 5 experienced guys aboard. Weather conditions would be similar to what Abby was facing in the southern Indian Ocean in the winter.

But unlike commercial crews who are profitable to ransom, small boat sailors usually disappear. Only the ship is ever found - for sale in some distant port.

Ms. Watson completed her around the world nonstop sail with no troubles.
I never did set out with such a grand plan but I did walk the Coast of California, border to border, when I was 13. My parents helped me pack...
My own daughter will hopefully aspire to such great adventures.
And I will support her.

:rofl:

than rape.

Some are then murdered by their rapists - do you blame their parents for that, too?

what a silly analogy.

yikes.

the point is, women face the threat of rape doing even the most mundane of things

This young woman was following her dream. Good for her. Good for her parents.

... on the off chance a teenage girl will sail by? That's utterly preposterous. Abby was way outside shipping lanes, and thousands of miles from any pirates. There are plenty of reasons to be validly critical of the family for, the possibility of rape isn't one of them.

No rapists don't hang out there, but whoever does - well, who does? Just other record breaking thrill seekers?

an American teenage girl happens by. Who knows what kind of people hang out at the South pole?

People don't just hang out on the ocean, they are out there for reasons, usually fishing and shipping. Both have good and bad areas that help them do their jobs efficiently. Shipping lanes are calculated as the least amount of time/distance from port to port, and usually don't involve going through the "middle" as it were, of the ocean. For many years, shipping lanes stayed close to land.

Still, the timing would just to have been absolutely perfect for Abby to run across another vessel where she was at. Being outside shipping lanes, and most likely not a prime fishing spot means whatever vessel was out there could have been, possibly, a tourist boat, luxury liner, or someone who was lost.

Vessels aren't self sustaining, they require fuel, fresh water, etc. so no one is going to stay out for months or years on end unless its nuclear vessels, and those are military.

how about rape in your bedroom, that happens a lot more than to folks out at sea. Maybe we should keep our kiddies in a vault?

until when? think about it...

from doing many things in life. I agree that no woman should take undue risks in reference to sexual assault, but rape is not even close to being the biggest risk here.

A young woman going on a date is at much higher risk of rape than this young woman was.

This reminds me of Simone de Beauvoir's "The Second Sex". Women are often held back to protect them even when the risk is small.

there's a type of sailor whose greatest dream is to singlehand it around the world. And many realize that dream-- I've met one or two, and they are not like the rest of us.

Fear of rape, piracy, robbery...? Sure, it could happen, but it's rare and not the sort of thing to put anyone off. The biggest dangers may not be even of the sea and its storms, but being run over by an errant containership or hitting a dozing whale.

How does being a great sailor prevent people from boarding his ship and taking all his shit and throwing him overboard with the sharks?

Because that's what Somalian pirates apparently do to male sailors.

I think that to keep those weak and vulnerable penis-possessing individuals safe, we should forbid them from sailing alone anywhere too.

Heck, it would appear that having *any* kind of genitalia makes you vulnerable to assholes. So I think we should all just lock ourselves in our houses and refuse to ever engage in any kind of activity ever that would possibly hurt us.

"How does being a great sailor stop people from boarding ur ship and raping you?"

Why the hell do people write like that on message boards? Texting is one thing, but damn, that kind of thing in any other context makes you look stupid. Seriously. :eyes:

But this was telling....
who SAYS stuff like this?
:eyes:

Yeah. That's where I stopped paying attention as well.

it was so out of left field that I chuckled.

:rofl:

hoping some individual comes sailing by.
I am also sure that when she was anywhere near land there were plenty of well-wishers and others following here progress.
The fear level in some people can be disabling.
I'm a sailor and would I have let my daughter do this trip? I honestly do not know. I do know that staying at the wheel, holding a course, for more than two hours in rough sea's can wear you down real quick.
At the end of it all my hat goes off to her. Her courage and stamina simply amazes me.

Do you let her leave the house?

All of the things that could befall this
child on the seas, and you fixate on RAPE?

What color burqua do you let her wear outside?

:crazy:

"what if's" I'd be confined to my bedroom with the covers over my head.

;)

asleep in bed, well after midnight, when a car came crashing through the wall of her bedroom, right where her bed had always been until she rearranged her room that very weekend!

(Needless to say, the driver was drunk.)

are flame retardant :)

She is far more likely to get raped at a party than she is to get raped by someone boarding her ship.

pirates, too.

Plus, the Somali pirates are not idiots. If they had to go this far, they'd choose a target of much higher economic value. Why would they go out of their way for this girl, when they (regularly) get 40 million dollar ransoms for hijacking oil tankers off the Horn of Africa with relative ease?

for anyone alone, especially a 16 year old female.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

"Buggery in Space"

willful, narcissistic, and reckless. (Are we discussing Ayn Rand again?)

People saying that teenage girl shouldn't go to community college because she might get raped and now this girl sailing the world might get raped.

WTF?

I guess girls should just stay locked up at home hiding under a burka because rapists lurk around every corner and even in the middle of the ocean, just waiting for their chance to prey on an independent-minded girl and put her in her rightful place. :crazy:

If someone wants to do it, it's their business. Just don't expect me to wallow in the orgy of tragedy when they die. There's a risk behind these things. In essence, it's why it's hard to do it. Because you might die. To cry about it when it happens and expect me to share your misery is idiotic.

On edit: This isn't a comment on rape but drowning. The rape thing is actually pretty unlikely.

She had a big dream, but she was only 16 years old. When you are that young it doesn't really seem like anything can happen to you. You are intellectually aware of consequences, but I don't think that prepares you to be alone and dealing with a very hard world. Her parents should have made sure that she was older before she went or had others go with her, which may have protected her. I am not trying to demonize them, I think they wanted their child to be able to realize a dream, but I don't think they thought enough about all the things that could have happened to her. Actually I think you are right. Your instinct is to keep your kids as safe as you can for as long as you can.

Some people graduate high school at 17!
Maturity is all relative. I know plenty of people my age (34) who are very immature.
We baby our kids an awful lot today.

arrived here from Russia/Poland at the age of 16 with just her 10 year old sister. No relatives here.

There is a bit of a difference though... my great grandmother Sophie did it for survival, Abby did it for ego.

She does not forgive for age, she does not calm herself because of your nationality. She will take your life in a second no matter who you are or how prepared you think you are, should she be in the mood.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Those parents need to be brought up on charges for reckless endangerment of a minor. They are out of their fucking gourds for what they did.

You post makes absolutely no sense. :wtf:


Crime involves people interacting with each other, in the middle of the ocean, outside of established trade lanes, this doesn't happen. Abby was more likely to be a victim of a mutiny than a victim of rape in the middle of the ocean.

Note, its supposed to be sarcasm.

Mutiny on the Bounty - Abby out there alone:

Abby - We need to sail to shore RIGHT NOW!!!

Abby 2 - No, Dad will be really pissed off if I quit!!

Abby - But we are going to die!!! The waves are 60 freaking feet tall!!!

Abby 2 - I would rather die a thousand deaths on the sea than deal with Dad pissed that I quit sailing the boat he designed and helped build for me. And MOM - man, will she be mad. NO, I will not quit!!!

Abby - Are you disobeying me????

Abby 2 - YES!!!

Abby - You are DONE when we get to shore, oops, I mean IF we get to shore!! How dare you mutiny against me.

Abby 2 - Go suck it, sister!!!

Mutiny on the Bounty, while alone.

"What kind of idiot decided it would be fun to go out sailing today?! LET ME OFF!"

Talking to myself in that way can be a little distressing to the crew.

:crazy:

Injury/illness, falling overboard, and collision are the biggest dangers. Unless she was sailing in areas frequented by pirates or numerous small vessels; rape, kidnapping, etc, are complete non-factors. Abby was no where near those areas. Finding and intercepting a boat in the open ocean is nearly impossible, you would have to have regularly updated information as to the boat's position, course , and speed. Probably the OP was projecting some personal inner fears.

foot the bill for her? And she's planning on doing it again....jeez. We're all supposed to be impressed because she's so young, but all i can think about is all the problems the world faces and this girl gets the money and the idle time to make a name for herself sailing around the world and getting bailed out by taxpayers.

Don't you think that could have happened to anyone?

Smart sailors don't go offshore in high latitudes during the winter. And she was in the Indian Ocean, not the Pacific.

by myself, was forbidden from getting a job, and going to the mall was out of the question. For my protection, I was told. I left home as soon as I could and didn't look back.

If you don't help your children explore life then they're going to be ill-prepared to do it themselves - but that won't stop them from doing it.


(PS I learned from a relative that my mom was a wild one as a teenager. That explains a lot.)

make the strictest parents.

mind your own fucking business.

If you want to mind your own business, I don't understand why you are posting here.

business. Oh, wait, I already said that, didn't I?

yas...

My nephew died in a car wreck at age 16 in St. Louis. I wish he had been on a sailboat instead of driving at night in a city.

Maybe you should have worried about him, rather than what people post on a message board.

was for posting messages. Can you ever forgive me?

Women should curtail their activities, lest they get raped.

A male can be raped just as easily as a female can - and in less troublesome areas for the attacker than the middle of the ocean. If I was sailing around the world, I believe I would be more concerned about a sudden storm or being eaten by something - I don't think rape would factor into my concerns.

I would