My 16 yo son wants to set a record as the youngest starter in the Indy 500.

He's had a standard driver's license for a couple months, and has even driven a go-kart several times. True, he's never even seen an Indy car, and will be placing his and the lives of 32 other drivers, a couple hundred pit crews, track officials and safety crews, and a couple hundred thousand spectators, all at risk... but what the hell - shouldn't everybody get behind his "life dream"? BTW, I've never driven an Indy car myself... but I've watched others do it, so I guess I'm an expert on my son's qualifications and will be overseeing the preparations myself.

:sarcasm:

Still, lots of 16-year-olds have that dream. With a lot of hard work and training, a few even get to do it. Tell your son to start with local racing, and get ready to spend a lot of money on car parts. There's a regular path to what he wants to do. All he has to do is follow it. If he has the talent and drive, he can race.

Oh...you're not talking about your son? Who knew?

After all more 16 year olds die in auto accidents while driving to Walmart than they do at the Indy 500.

So it's extremely safe.

Since he's never driven an Indycar before, he'll be perfectly safe since he'll never get it moving in a forward motion. But, at least he'll get to "start" the race, thereby living the dream.

*snort*

16 yo kid, high performance racing machine, bad weather.... what can go wrong?

I suppose they could push him to the line so he could stall it there and "start" the race.

A 16 should never be told "wait until you're 18" or "yes, your older brother did it at 19, but you're only 16."

Or, why 16? Why not 15? Or 14? Or 12?

Then obviously it means my 14 yo daughter can do it too. Lining up the sponsors already.

In Australia we have a series of provisional licenses (p-plates) and logging time on learner plates before anyone gets a full license. P-Plates are useful for the rest of us, because we know then to expect bonehead plays by those drivers.

Here's how it works:

Pass a test... then

Learner licence?

When you are issued with your learner licence, you will receive a Learner driver log book so that you and your supervising driver(s) can record your driving experience. You will have to log at least 120 hours of supervised driving (which includes a minimum of 20 hours of night driving) before you can attempt the Driving Test. Night driving hours are between sunset and sunrise.

Note: From 19 December 2009, there are changes to the Graduated Licensing Scheme for novice drivers. Learner drivers who complete a one hour structured driving lesson with a fully licensed driving instructor can record three hours driving experience in their Learner Driver Log Book. A maximum of 10 hours of lessons will be accepted and recorded as 30 hours driving experience in the Learner Driver Log Book. These structured lessons must be recorded in the Structured Lesson Record Keeper log book insert in order to be recognised under the new rules.

Provisional (P1) driver licence

After passing the test: P1 drivers must:

* Have P plates (red P on white background) displayed conspicuously at the front and rear exterior of the car when driving. The letter P on the plate must not be hidden. If towing a trailer, a P plate must be on the back of the trailer.
*
Not exceed zero blood alcohol concentration (this means you cannot drink before driving). It is also illegal to drive under the influence of drugs.
* Observe a maximum speed limit of 90 km/h.
* Observe towing restrictions (you are only allowed to tow light trailers of up to 250 kilograms unloaded weight).
* Automatic transmission vehicles – You are restricted to driving an automatic or clutchless manual transmission vehicle if tested in one.
*
Not supervise a learner driver.
*
Not upgrade the licence to a higher class.
*
If aged under 25, you may only carry one passenger under the age of 21 between 11pm and 5am.
*
Only carry the number of passengers that can be properly seated in seats and restrained by approved seat belts or child restraints.
*
Only drive vehicles that have a seat belt fitted to the driver's position and you must wear the seat belt.
*
Not use any functions of a mobile phone including hands-free devices.
*
Not drive certain prohibited vehicles.

Failure to comply with any of the above requirements is an offence and carries heavy penalties, including loss of licence.

A provisional P1 licence will be suspended or refused if the threshold of four demerit points is reached or exceeded. P1 licence holders will have their licence suspended for at least three months for any speeding offence. An additional suspension or refusal period will apply for any excessive speed offence (More than 30km/h above the speed limit).

Provisional (P2) driver licence

Provisional licences have two stages. After completing the minimum required tenure period on your P1 licence you can attempt the Hazard Perception Test (HPT). If successful, you can proceed to the P2 licence.

What is the Hazard Perception Test (HPT)?

The HPT is a touch-screen computer test which measures your ability to recognise and respond to potentially dangerous situations. Research has shown that a lack of these skills is a major factor in crashes, particularly those involving young drivers.

A P2 driver licence is issued for 30 months. You must hold a P2 licence for a minimum period of 24 months before being eligible to progress to a full licence.

If you have committed an offence under section 129 of the Liquor Act 2007 of using false documents to gain access to licensed premises or purchase alcohol you will be required to hold your P2 licence for 30 months, that is, an additional six-month period. This is not required if the additional 6 month period was served on the P1 licence.

Any period that your licence is suspended is not counted.

P2 licence holders must:

* Have P plates (green P on a white background) displayed conspicuously at the front and rear exterior of the car when driving. The letter P on the plate must not be hidden. If towing a trailer, a P plate must be on the back of the trailer.
*
Not exceed zero blood alcohol concentration (this means you cannot drink before driving). It is illegal to drive under the influence of drugs.
* Observe a maximum speed limit of 100 km/h.
* Not supervise a learner driver.
* Only carry the number of passengers that can be properly seated in seats and restrained by approved seat belts or child restraints.
* Only drive vehicles that have a seat belt fitted to the driver's position and you must wear the seat belt.
* Not drive certain prohibited vehicles.

Failure to comply with any of the above requirements is an offence and carries heavy penalties, including loss of licence.

P2 licence holders caught speeding will receive a minimum of four demerit points.

A provisional P2 licence will be suspended or refused if the threshold of seven demerit points is reached or exceeded. A suspension or refusal period will also apply for any excessive speed offence (more than 30km/h above the speed limit).

During the term of a P2 licence you are able to upgrade to a LR, MR and HR class of licence - see 'Heavy vehicles' for more information.

http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/licensing/index.html

In the States, a learners permit is allowed at 15 (must have adult in passenger seat while driving). When 16, allowed to take drivers test for license (no minimum instruction required). Then Dad buys you a new BMW. Lots of kids die in car wrecks... go figure.

They get cut a lot of slack on the roads and in car parks.

Red P (Provisional 1)



Green P (Provisional 2)



P-Plater:

at the age of 17 with essentially the same qualifications?

That might color your decision a bit.

It's kinda hard to murder a pit crew with a boat out in the middle of the ocean.

or any other yachtsmen or fishermen out in the ocean.

I have been roasted beyond all reason on this website for my harshness toward parents I think are far too permissive of their precious little darling brats from hell and just expect "the village" to actually raise their hellions.

All things considered, there's no reason for me to believe Abby's parents were dishonest with themselves about requirements involved in the task or Abby's ability to meet the challenges. IMHO my 16 yr old niece is more likely to kill someone with her temps than Abby is with her boat. (Which is why my niece is still only permitted to practice in empty parking lots).

shoot, she's ready for a record-breaking cross country trip in a racing car... during the winter. Don't worry, nothing can go wrong.

needed to drive a car safely on the edge. That is one of the reasons so few make it to the top 100 drivers in the country, experience and practice only carries a person so far, if they weren't born with either reflexes or concentration, chances are they aren't going farther then the local track. When your driving a car at full speed pushing both the auto's and your limits, the margin of error gets lowered real quick.

but no way am I going to race motorcycles lol. In fact back in the 90's I was so good I decided to jump 2 cars at the same time without a ramp, lol.

But someone sets their 16 year old off to sail solo around the world and they are heroes. Go figure.

The hallmark of many such families seems to be a complete commitment to themselves, with little thought or concern for outsiders. It's as much cult as family. The home schooling. The obsession with glory seeking. The religious belief that God is always looking over them.

Glory hogs are boring. Climbing mountains, sailing around the world - these are trivial activities in the modern world.

I'd rather see a 16 year old who volunteers each week to help less fortunate, not someone whose idea of a worthwhile life is meaningless self glorification.

She's lucky to be alive, and her parents are lucky not to be in jail for child endangerment. In fact, all the adults who acted as her "advisers" should be charged with child endangerment, and CPS should consider whether any remaining children should be temporarily removed from their parents' custody, until their psychological soundness can be assured.

so we can donate to your "buy Hooptiewagon a clue fund"!

She got caught in 25-30 foot seas and had a bad time. She put nobody at risk but herself. The hate here for a young woman pursuing her dream, and putting nobody but herself at risk, is astounding.

Who has she harmed? Why are you so upset?

that even right here on DU people call for the imprisonment of parents who, due to their faith, choose not to treat this illness or that in their kids yet laud the decision by this family to allow their 16 year old brat to take her yacht around the world by herself....silly it is..

et tu?

Why the hate?

But the Minnow would be lost.

even the most experienced sailors are at risk on the open seas. Abby understood the risks. Her parents understood the risks. What the heck is all the hate here for her?

The captain of the French fishing boat was washed overboard while they were picking up Abby. Fortunately, the crew was able to recover him. Had they not, he would have died. I guess HIS life doesn't matter to the Abby apologists.

*snore*

to start and run an Indy or Formula One car. Safer than the streets--all the traffic is going in one direction.

Today, people piss and moan and whine all the time about how modern kids are coddled by their parents, while claiming that when THEY were kids they did all kids of neat stuff and survived. So when some modern kid comes along and tries to do something dangerous, then we have people who piss and moan and whine about the kid and the kid's parents for being too permissive.

:banghead: :rant:

After all, the Indy 500 is just like driving to WallMart.

agencies or organizations that have oversight.

I certainly don't think a bunch of people on DU who have never driven or even ridden in one of these cars are the best to advise you on this.

However it goes, I hope he follows his dreams, pursues adventures and has a wonderful and inspiring life.

:hi:

over 120,000 miles on the track yourself.


http://www.sunyachts.net/main/About%20SYM.html

:sarcasm:

Where I grew up...LOTS!

The Great South Bay of Long Island back in the 70's was a racing boat Haven!

So much so that the Suffolk Co.Police bought these to stop the Crazies



The Sayville/Fire Island Pines Ferries threw a SWEET Wake...Lotsa Airtime!

And a properly equipped ocean going Sailboat is any more dangerous?

Well, judge for yourself....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/29/newsid_4034000/4034603.stm


http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/14/newsid_3886000/3886877.stm


Of course, these were in the summertime, with fully crewed yachts. Abby was sailing by herself, in the winter. b-b-but Jesus was looking after her... what could go wrong?

At Hurricane Island Outward Bound School,Hurricane Island Maine.

Fifteen 16-17 yearolds out in and around the Out Islands in the North Alantic,In one of these...



14 days out in the open ocean with the instructors miles away,no Eperibs only a 21 Ch.Handheld C.B. in case the S++T hit the fan.

Storms,Large Waves,Lobster Pots tangled in the Keel,Rowing our ass off for many hours and miles when the wind crapped out.

These boats weigh 23,000lbs empty,are 30' long have a beam of 8'6" and a draft of 6'7" with the keel down.

ever run one in a 8 Knot current? ya,know kinda like a Canoe in a Fast,wide river? We Did.

Sorry about the 'Tude,but it is up to you as a parent to decide what is best for your kids,you know them better than anyone,but please don't make blanket statements about Someone Else's Kid!

OK

Possibly it's because neither you nor he have the practical experience or the training. Also, in many cases, once presented with the necessary disciplines that need to be maintained, a child's dream turns out to be little more than a child's fantasy.

However, if your child can get the required paperwork and licensing, illustrates and maintains an aptitude for the sport, shows a willingness to sacrifice major those parts of a child's life growing up needed, then I imagine you may have a youngster that shows they will actually work hard and persevere to achieve their dreams.

Otherwise, it's simply not a very clever analogy.

And if he dies in the race, he'll have died doing what he loved and realizing his dream! Isn't that how everyone wants their life to turn out?

:sarcasm:

It's so much better than that boring, unadventuresome four years at college, love life, dating, traveling, falling in love, getting married, having children, family, a career, grandchildren. That's just so hum drum and boring and no life at all.

:sarcasm:

Better to die at 16 being adventurous!

7 Jun 2010

A 12-year-old French-Mexican boy has become the youngest novice bullfighter to perform in Mexico City's main ring. Michel "Michelito" Lagravere successfully killed his first bull, which weighed 405 kilograms, on Sunday.

But the "novillero" lost his footing while facing the second bull and was knocked around the sand by the 385-kilogram animal. "Michelito" was taken from the ring for X-rays. His father said he suffered only bruises and was expected to be released later on Sunday. Michel Lagravere, also a bullfighter, added that he was both fearful and proud watching his son in the ring.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/mexicos-youngest-bullfighter-draws-first-blood-20100607-xpb2.html

And don't you listen to any of those sourpusses who tell you that yr child isn't hurting anyone and that yr being too permissive and interested in the dollar$ at the end of the rainbow! ;)

Teens should be allowed to partake of any adventure. There will always be someone to rescue them, and others to bear the cost.

Why do we treat 16 year olds like children? They are teens.
And to think, 16 year olds used to work on ships all the time.

... but that's OK, they're practically adults.

including adults.

The boat she was sailing is a high-performance "thoroughbred", physically challenging for an experienced adult to handle in normal conditions. Tackling the southern ocean in the winter, even by an adult, in a more conservative boat, is very risky.

Why do we treat 16 year olds like children?

We don't- but responsible recognize that as adolescent's they're not mature adults, and have their own set of developmental issues. And as far as I know- nothing prevents 16 year olds from crewing a private vessel.

Around the world solo non-stop is quite a jump, though. Abby certainly wasn't up to the task.

"In Abby's case she was lucky," said Derrick Fries, a world sailing champion and author of the standard instruction manual "Learn to Sail." "It's only a matter of time until we end up with a tragedy on our hands."

<snip>

Fries said that although he doesn't doubt Sunderland's abilities as a sailor, he believes there's no way she could have gained enough experience in her 16 years to prepare for every possible emergency one faces on such a journey.
"Never would I allow my 16-year-old son to even attempt it," he said. "It's almost a death sentence."



Besides winning several world championships, and authoring a sailing instruction book, he's also a school teacher.
I'm sure he's quite familiar with the maturity and capabilities of teenagers.

Abby's parents have been severely criticised for for letting her sail a yacht across the Indian Ocean in the notorious winter storm season, only a month after she was forced to stop in South Africa for auto-pilot problems.

A similar voyage by Jessica Watson was done in much more favourable seasons.

The man who built Wild Eyes, Queensland boat-builder Jon Sayer, said that Abby was not up to the trip.

"She wasn't physically or mentally strong enough to handle a 40-foot boat in those winter storm conditions."

Round-the-world yachtsman Ian Kiernan also criticised Abby for failing to respect the sea.

"I don't know what she's doing in the southern Indian Ocean in the middle of the winter. We need adventurers but adventurers who do foolhardy things and put their rescuers at risk, it should not be allowed."

However, her parents defended their decision, saying they were a family of "adventurers, not accountants''.

"We don't live inside a box - we do things,'' said Abby's Australian-born father, Laurence.

"Some people are accountants, some people are librarians, our family is full of adventurers. I wouldn't want to try to turn them into librarians.''

Abby's brother Zac, 18, sailed solo around the world last year.

Abby's mother, Marianne, who is heavily pregnant, said that her little girl was aware of the dangers.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/rescued-abby-sunderland-wants-second-go-at-sailing-record/story-e6frfq80-1225878946554?from=igoogle+gadget+compact+news_rss

That's reassuring to know that the parents have got another attempt at breaking the *youngest to do something incredibly dangerous* record about to be born. It would have been heartbreaking to know that their chances were blown when Abby didn't succeed!;)

Neither girl probably had the proper experience, IMO - but Jessica's planning and preparation were much better all around. Plus, I assume she doesn't have a Fundie father pushing her.

Here's a Houston, Texas teenager dead hiking down a "known route" on South Africa's Table mountain.

Should the family have not been doing that?

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jP_oLdag_xZ1qE_XsxlOIDZmFOKg

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7050591.html

CAPE TOWN — A 14-year-old American tourist in South Africa during the World Cup plunged to his death from Table Mountain while hiking with his family, police said on Sunday.

The teenager was hiking down the top tourist attraction with his brother and parents in wet conditions on Saturday when he fatally slipped on a trail known as Skeleton Gorge shortly after 2:00 pm (1200 GMT).

"He slipped and he fell. As a result of the injuries he sustained, he died immediately there," said police spokesman Billy Jones.

Rescuers brought down the body and the family were assisted by the department of tourism and the United States embassy, he added.

The family, who are from Texas, were vacationing in South Africa and intended to watch some World Cup matches, said Jones.

They were hiking down the landmark Cape Town tourist site after catching the mountain's cable car to the top, he said.

The family have not been identified.

Send money! They need your money - not to pay the tens of thousands of dollars spent finding and retrieving their daughter, but to pay for getting the boat back home.

Being self indulgent seems to be a family trait.

for magnitudes of risk.

Case is pretty much closed on that ground alone.

:sarcasm:

Bobby Santos III is a kid phenom in open wheel racing - he started racing full size cars when he was 14 (IIRC). he has moved up from a "Limited supermodified" class, to USAC and NEMA midgets, ISMA supers and the top ride on this year's NASCAR Modified Tour - the #4 Garbarino "Mystic Missle". His 2007 USAC ride

Can, or should your kid try this? pretty likely not! His grandpa was a top driver in Modifieds for a decade, and had a very successful career as a GN chassis specialist after that. His dad had a limited career, but was a top shoe in the divisions he raced in. Racing is like baseball - It can be byzantine enough that generational knowledge is quite valuable, and that GOOD coaching at advanced levels of skills development can be hard to come by.


And I don't beleive his people will push him to the "big show" too early.
If you are trying to make a point about the interpid young sailor, the point may be well taken - what kind of family support did she have? Who fitted out the boat? Who's payin' the bills? In Bobby III's case, his family connections and knowledge have kept him out of bad rides, deathtrap cars and shaky situations.

After all, it's his life's dream. Who are we to decide when he's old enough?

:sarcasm: