Is somebody actually giving Abby Sunderland a hard time

about her age and how it might have caused her boat to founder?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/06/12/teen.sailor/?hpt=T1
(CNN) -- The 16-year-old California girl rescued from her stricken boat in the Indian Ocean says she is "safe and sound" and argues that her age shouldn't be blamed for the problems she encountered while at sea.

Drunk driving is a teenage screwup. Shoplifting is a teenage screwup. A broken mast during a storm in the middle of the Indian Ocean while sailing around the world by yourself is at most, at most, the result of an error of judgement. You wouldn't catch my ass out there on a fucking ocean liner.

I hope nobody is giving that kid a hard time for acomplishing more before she is seventeen than most people will in their entire lives.

Go Abby!

Maybe she's sensitive about her age.

her parents displayed in letting her do this at 16, although the same problems could have occurred had they all waited until she was twice that age and twice that experienced.

I'm quite jealous of any kid who gets that kind of encouragement in life since that's the one thing my parents were shortest of.

But it's not like she was some kid from Muncie Indiana who had never seen the ocean before. I understand her brother did the same thing a while back. It sounds like they are a seafaring family and she was raised around it. Twenty thousand years ago sixteen year old girls were doing some pretty difficult stuff every day and calling it just another day. For that matter, they still are, they just don't make the news.

i.e., the caretaker here. Encouragement was for the younger kids. That's what "Like Water For Chocolate" was about.

the time and energy that was spent in rescuing her. At least she was not in the vicinity of the latest earthquake in the Indian Ocean or was she?

When I first started following Jessica Watson's circumnavigation, I thought of two people...both older, wiser, better trained and so on and so forth.

Mentioned both young women to a retired airline pilot(international routes)who told me that what they did was reckless and foolish. I said why so? After all, after everyone who had gone ahead of Lindburgh had died...many much more experienced, better equipped, multi-engined even in some cases...yet Lindy made the flight anyway. He made it. As a result, I said, you had your career.

At the time of encountering this storm, Abby had about 8,000-10,000 miles of sailing behind her...just on this one cruise. She passed the Horn from west to east in the roaring 40s. This wasn't even a failure on her part--the mast failed. That could happen to anyone.

When dreams are dead among our young, then we as a species will be dead as well.

She and Jessica are to be congratulated, not excoriated.

To advance mankind, not just someone having a fun adventure and trying to break a record just for the sake of breaking a record.

a matter of personal satisfaction is a different matter.

Lindy could have just been the next dead pilot. People still make that flight by the way. Even though it has been done.

The hate for Abby is rather disturbing.

Nobody has expressed anything remotely resembling hatred for this young woman. Rather some people are questioning the wisdom of parents letting their 16-year-old attempt a solo circumnavigation of the globe. I personally don't really care, but those people would seem to have been vindicated somewhat by the fact this girl almost bought it out there.

Read the threads. It seems that she was putting the entire ocean at risk, plus her parents sent her out to get raped, and it was the same as putting a kid with no driving experience into the Indy 500, and she is "a 16 year old brat".

Oh and it was the parental equivalent of denying chemotherapy to a kid with treatable lymphoma.

you are really upset about this young woman's choices

i suppose using your Scale of Moral Judgment, no kids should compete in the Olympics, ride horses, skateboard, go on tour playing music, leave the house...

and as for the "get raped" crap:

as a female, I can assure you that every time a woman goes out the door, she risks rape.

it doesn't only happen on the high seas, but right here in suburban Amurika every. single. day.

if you're implying, as the taliban do, that females' activities should be curtailed because they have vaginas, perhaps Afghanistan is your kind of place.

i hear none of the girls even go to school, they are so aware of the WarrenStupidity Scale of Moral Judgment For Young Women Who Want To Attempt Things.


I bet you have a dozen male heroes who did incredibly adventurous things as teens, but that's okay cuz they're Boyz.


lol lol lol

And she could sail around her home or even far from it all day for all we care.

We're talking about putting society to the cost of rescues for foolhardy ventures.

who have criticized Abby's attempt. He was merely quoting the remarks he has seen on other threads, just to show how negative they were, because the other poster said no one was hating on Abby, but in reality some of the posts have been rather nasty about her. (I have seen two that have referred to her as a "brat.")

I actually think her parents let her take a huge risk in order to cash in on publicity, but maybe I am wrong.

However, I can't let you blame Warren Stupidity for someting he is not doing. He is complaining about the people who have said such things about Abby.

and you were quoting others

so my post is directed at them




mea culpa

:blush:

That's about as ludicrous as it gets.

Fearful people don't accomplish much in any arena. They are not vindicated by the failures of those who try.

a $400,000 car.

How much is this boat and why aren't we hearing the same complaints about overindulgence? Other than that I have no comment as I find the whole thing rather boring. Magellan did it centuries ago without the technology we have today; so I'm not sure why I should actually care about this attempt.

than a LOT of things she could be getting up to...

:shrug:

I don't love the competition aspect. I mean, it would have been a fabulous thing to have done with just one other person (which would have made it safer.

I'm not so sure it would have been safer with two, however.

her and her family shortly after getting on the fishing boat.

It broke my heart. I don't think I will ever understand why people felt the need to do this to her. If they knew her and her family, I would hope they would feel deeply ashamed.

:(

She decided to do this within the public's eye. For Glory. If it was simply for her own personal reason then she could have done it and nobody would have known except her and her family.

... then when her voyage didn't turn out so well she doesn't want the spotlight - imagine that.
Self-absorbed teens and parents should stay out of the kitchen if they're not willing to take the heat.

While I admire Abby's spirit and determination, this kind of voyage requires enough physical strength AND the physical stamina to endure that kind of hardship. A 16 year old has just so much of that. Abby may have had enough "stuff". We'll never know - from all accounts her boat may not have been seaworthy enough to make this trip and they all gambled. So there's that.

But putting all that aside, the next kid to try is going to be younger.

And if/WHEN they founder on that attempt, the expense and resources to fish them out of the ocean as well must be scrutinized.

I absolutely will not criticize Abby or her parents. I participate in a high risk sport where kids are routinely doing crazy things. There's always a gamble. But my sport has (rightfully so imho) limited participation at the highest levels to over-18s. That doesn't mean the kids aren't doing those things under the radar but they aren't doing it in the media glare.

Abby and her parents decided to face the media glare and advertise Abby's attempt. They are then certainly capable of weathering any media storm that follows.

Her parents are irresponsible idiots and they deserve to hear what's being said about them. It's a damn shame the govts of the countries that rescued her can't bill the family for the rescue. The people I think are courageous and deserve respect are those who were involved in the rescue, not some spoilt princess and her parents....

if that young lady is not on Oprah within thirty days, and does not sign a book contract within a week of arriving back in the USA.

Want to take me up on it?

I thought not.

There was no other reason for her to attempt an around-the-world sail at this time than to be a "record breaker".

That's why as a taxpayer of a country that's footing the bill for her rescue, I'm irritated that her irresponsible parents aren't being forced to pay for at least some of the massive cost of the rescue...

And all Abby is concerned about are the negative things people are saying about her on the internet.

a testament to her abilities that she was never thrown off her boat despite the conditions.

I am not sure why you are so hostile towards her. She is a sailor. You are a sailor.

Based on what you have told me about yourself, you have done some very serious sailing. You do have more credibility than most in terms of discussing conditions, the boat, etc.. I think your judgments of the person and the family are completely off the mark, but realize that you don't really have the information one would need to have any expertise on that aspect.

I know that you also realize that sailing, particularly some of the kind that you have done, always involves some calculated risks. And most assuredly you know that no matter how well you prepared, the unexpected should always be expected and things can go badly very quickly. If you have never been in a situation where things went wrong and, in the post-mortem (which we all do ad nauseum) realized where we could have avoided or lessened the probability, then you are one incredibly lucky sailor.

I just find your reaction to this difficult to understand. My experience with sailors is that they will do whatever they have to do to help and support another sailor.

Not suggesting that you don't have room, reason or the right to criticize, it just seems so over the top.

... because it was tying up all their resources towing in boaters who ran out of fuel, went out in conditions too much for them and their boat to handle, and other such idiocy. USCG now will only respond if a life is in imminent danger. Otherwise they send a commercial tower.
The more Abby and her Dad speak up, the more like attention-seeking idiots they sound; and they cast a shadow on the many people whose life dream is to sail around the world, and manage to quietly accomplish that without a media blitzkreig or mid-ocean rescue.

You do realize that almost no one had heard of Abby Sunderland prior to this event. And even less people have ever heard of Zac Sunderland, even though he completed his circumnavigation last year and set a new record.

You know why? Because the family really isn't seeing fame and fortune. Unfortunately, they are getting the attention they did not seek. What? Do you think they are happy that she was dismasted in the middle of the Indian Ocean?

Abby's life dream was and still is to sail around the world without a media blitzkrieg or mid-ocean rescue. She is who you speak about. You are contributing to casting a shadow on these people, IMO.

By the way, Abby is refusing interviews.

That's the whole function of a sponsor/sponsee relationship... somewhat like selling your soul to the devil, once you do it you can't put it back in the bag. The family and sponsors were eager for the attention before she got in trouble. Now that she failed, and her parent's judgment is called in to question, they're trying to turn off the spotlight. Of course, given the idiotic comments to the media they've made lately, that's probably a good move. Maybe the sponsors told them to STFU?

sponsor who has locations only in southern California, was really banking on some major national attention. Ever heard of them? Then there is Krikorian theaters, also only in SoCal. They really had a lot to gain here and are probably holding her by the neck right now. Check out their websites. They are voicing nothing but support for her.

By the way, the videos you posted to show how things should be done featured boats plastered with sponsor ads.

What idiotic statements are you referring to?

Good luck finding an Open Class or Volvo 70 boat that isn't sponsored. AFAIK they all are.

Things that are done "solo" usually are, I don't know why you fail to see that.

who want no publicity whatsoever, as they stand outside and give interviews.

Be real.

I thought I'd heard that he built the boat, and evidently he did something of a "half-mast" job, no?

Abby was on the radio in January and said the boat was purchased.

http://www.abbysunderland.com/abbys-boat.php

Just presumed she'd be using the family brand. Still, going to make a great ad for the folks who did build it. :sarcasm:

IIRC he has a boat maintenance service. Sending his daughter out on a boat he prepared, which ultimately failed, certainly doesn't speak well for his competence.

Designed for ocean racing.

She seems to be a product of a family that encourages their children to try to set meaningless records.

What's admirable is a 16 year old who volunteers each week to help others who are needy. But self indulgent activities such as this are not admirable. They're the mark of the spoiled families.

And to those DUers who think sending a kid out like that is a wonderful and selfless achievement and that anyone who doesn't worship at the altar of trying to set absolutely pointless and dangerouns records at the youngest age possible is heartless and cruel, suck it up. My tax dollars have gone towards her rescue, so I think I'm more than entitled to have my approximately 38 cents in each dollar say on the complete irresponsibility of allowing her to be there in the first place...




AUSTRALIA will pay for its part in the search and rescue of teenage solo sailor Abby Sunderland who encountered extremely rough weather in the Indian Ocean.

Australian Maritime Safety Authority chief executive Mick Kinley said searchers saw and made radio contact with Abby just after 4pm (AEST) on Friday.

"She sounds like she's in good health, as far as we can tell, and she's going to hang in there,'' Mr Kinley said in Canberra.

Australian authorities commissioned a Qantas plane to search for Abby, who is about 3700km off the coast of Western Australia.

Mr Kinley did not say how much the rescue mission would cost, but said there would be no attempt to recover costs.

Abby's emergency beacon went off outside Australia's search and rescue region, in the region of La Reunion and La Reunion asked Australia for assistance.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/australia-to-cover-costs-of-abby-sunderlands-rescue/story-e6frfku0-1225878600356

They're obviously rich. (Daddy bought her a boat to sail around the world). They should compensate everyone involved for their help.

www.savewildeyes.com

I am so totally not impressed with the gall of those people...

On the other hand- I don't have a problem as Aussie taxpayer for footing the bill for rescues. Could be one of our yachts next time out in another nation's waters.

Don't get me wrong. I know we have to foot the bill for these rescues, but I'm so sick and tired of seeing people who aren't equipped to deal with the situations they or their irresponsible parents put themselves into having to be saved at a massive cost. It irks me so much that her parents are begging for money to salvage that boat, and it irks me that people (I don't care what their nationality is, btw) can't be billed when their own irresponsibility puts them in situations where they need rescuing...

Remember the British backpacker who wandered off without the proper gear and spent 12 days and nights in the Blue Mountains? Thought he was dead meat for sure.



That guy had the good form to donate some of the proceeds from his publicity appearances to the folks went after him.

Sort of.

Father of rescued British backpacker Jamie Neale seeks reconciliation after fallout over money

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/father-of-rescued-british-backpacker-jamie-neale-seeks-reconciliation-after-fallout-over-money/story-e6frf7jo-1225787037692

I don't think there's very many who would underwrite a voyage like that. Well, on the bright side, maybe financial difficulties will prevent them from doing this publicity stunt with their other 6 kids.

This is a humanitarian issue, and I don't like the "well, I don't want to have to pay for somebody else's stupidity" attitude because that keeps us from things like universal health care.

"I don't want to pay for skateboarders that fall and break their arms. I don't want to pay for fat people. I don't want to pay for smokers. I don't want to pay for ______________. I just want to pay for non-smoking, non-drinking, average-weight, 18-to-35-year-old male shut-ins that live alone in ranch houses without basements, pets, or pools."

She may grow up to be another rich, arrogant horse's ass sailing expert. I would like to think she will grow up to teach kids the art of seamanship and respect for the ocean. At least at this point she is a much better role model for kids than some spoiled no talent media creature.

she was way more likely to die in a car accident on the drive from her home to the boat...before she even started. I am amazed at her parents and in what they have taught her and given her that they "allowed" her to live life so fully and completely...no matter what her age. She was capable and knew what she was doing...and she is so, so lucky to have such parents.

Tell you what, if anyone's giving her a hard time it'll be the French fishermen for sailing solo into that part of the ocean at the peak of the winter storm season. Seriously.

That's an act of recklessness that rivals those climbers who were killed on Mt. Hood a few December's back. And what's worse is that apparently she not only doesn't accept that fact, but has blogged that it isn't so.

A mark of immaturity if ever there was one.

... but the lives of potential rescuers as well.

I've no animosity towards her or her parents--she had a vision and went for it, and even if it appears some mistakes were made in the execution I admire the effort.

But I'm not buying the claim that this constitutes accomplishing more than most people ever will. Certainly she's accomplished *something* that most people never will, but that's a different issue.

And her family is obviously rich, so I expect more from those who enjoy privilege. I guess I've just seen too much talent wasted in my life by people that never knew they had it.

They can't even afford the overindulgent toy they gave her.

I'm guessing the family isn't exactly eking out a living. By SoCal Yachting circles standard of living though, they might be working class.

I admire this young woman's determination, never mind what fueled it (because that's an interesting story in itself, I suppose).

Abby and her family knew about the risks and dangers of this adventure. They went into this with wide-open eyes.

My conclusion is that I truly don't care one way or the other. She was found, she is now safe. Great for her and her family. If she hadn't been found at all or if there had only been wreckage... I can't say I would have felt deep sorrow.

Reason being that anyone who undertakes this sort of adventure, whether male or female, teenager or adult, knows the risk. And if one is willing to face it, then the "glory" is that person's alone, as well as the "failure".

There are people from other countries who risked their lives to save this girl. Taxpayers from Australia are footing the bill for the rescue, not her or her family. If the failure was hers alone and others weren't dragged into it to clear up the mess, it wouldn't be such a problem...

And I do realize that.

What I meant by "failure", though, is the goal which isn't reached.

What was she doing in the Indian Ocean in the middle of winter, with winter storms??? She and her parents were chasing some stupid, meaningless record. They put her in a "speed-boat," so she could beat the other girl's record. The other girl had a more stable, but slower boat, and she averaged more speed than this Abby girl. Because she was better prepared.

I don't think any underage person should be allowed to do this. Period. Arrest the parents for child endangerment, make them pay for the rescue. Don't make a hero out of a ill-informed, misguided young lady.

Great adventure, my butt. If it were such a great, independent adventure, she shouldn't have called for help. I am glad she did, but she was no independent contractor here.

I say, "step back and let Mr. Darwin work."

A) This puts the rescuers lives at risk.
B) This reduces rescue resources available in case a real emergency arises.
C) Somebody else (not the parents) is footing the bill. Why should Australian taxpayers pay to rescue a self-absorbed fame-seeking American teen from a foolish action?

Ideally, yes it would be nice if we could sit back and allow Darwin's Law remove the Fundies and fools from the gene pool, but realistically that isn't going to happen. Sailors are going to look out for each other, even the idiots, plus Au would be facing a PR nightmare if they didn't rescue a blonde white chick in distress.

It's one of those worthless media-driven distractions to keep us numb and dumb.

I don't care about her age. She wants to be treated like an adult - fine! As I would tell any adult doing something that stupid: You fucked up. Now go home and shuddafuccup.

The only place I've run into information about her the past few days is at DU.

on a robotic sailboat

this trip proves nothing

She had GPS, water-makers, satellite communication, a shore-side weather router telling her where to go, and a team of boat "experts" to help her diagnose and repair problems that cropped up; not to mention sponsors. For me, that pretty much takes the "alone" out of the around the world alone.

A much more remarkable story is that of John Guzzwell. Born in England, he grew up on the Channel isle of Jersey. He and his parents sailed to South Africa and back when he was a young boy in the. A while after returning to Jersey, WW2 broke out, and the Germans invaded Jersey, john and his parents had tried to escape in their boat, but were forced back by bad weather. They were allowed to live in their house for a while, but eventually all the islanders were sent to a concentration camp, where he spent the last 2 1/2 years of the war. During this time, his father taught him navigation. After the war, he apprenticed as a woodworker for a couple years, and emigrated to Canada, finally arriving in BC with only $23 to his name in his early 20s. He got a job as a woodworker, saved his money, and began building a small 20' yawl, which he finished and sailed around the world. He sold the boat (which sailed around the world twice more under different ownership), and wrote a book. He had no sponsor for his trip, no prior book deal, no self-steering or autopilot, navigated by sextant (that's all there was back then), and worked odd jobs when in port to support himself and fund his trip. it's a fascinating book, called "Trekka Round the World" . Perhaps a few of these teens should read it before they undertake such a trip.

edit: added link.
http://www.johnguzzwell.com/Home.html

but cheer lunatic Christian ones who send their kid into a different kind of suicide mission? Weird.

I know they're lunatics and I suspected they might be some fringe group somewhat aligned with Christians, but what are they? Is this one of those family cults, where mom and dad impose their freaky beliefs on the whole family?

(no I dont have the links off hand) I pretty much get the picture that he's a loon. I don't think they necessarily pushed her into it, but I wouldn't doubt if there was an element of "God will save you from that godless ocean" in supporting the thrust of a 16 year old into one of the most dangerous environments on the planet.

The overall picture, however, is of a family that has cloistered itself in a small community (people who live on boats and flush their sewer into the bay), and who think of little besides sailing.

to land.

I live on a boat. I am not cloistered in a small community, but have a vibrant and shifting community, depending on where I am.

And no serious sailor would ever flush their sewerage in a bay. It is irresponsible part-time boaters who do that.... the same ones who only really think about sailing and rarely ever actually do it.

:hi:

:hi:

that had many errors and much misinformation. It appears to have been translated from some other language.

Dad's not a loon at all, but does consider himself Christian and would most likely say that prayer and faith are useful tools when one finds themselves in difficult times.

"born again" after he got really off track and was about to lose his family. They hold deep beliefs, but are not proselytizers or judgmental of people with other beliefs (or no beliefs).

They belong to a small, non-denominational church. No cult, no freaky beliefs. Zac and Abby both describe themselves as Christian, but would describe themselves as other things first (sailors, mainly).

I'm saying you have your opinions and that's all they are.

You're still just a person reporting what she believes to be the truth, and your posts on this subject have proved you're not objective.

We are each free to believe or not believe anyone posting here. We are free to judge the veracity of each poster. I've not found you to be objective or reliable on this subject, so I don't choose to put much weight into the things you claim to know.

Others are free to believe you, if they choose. I think you're too close to it to be rational about the topic, as your attacks on others have demonstrated.

I rarely post, but this is a subject about which I am passionate and defensive. I don't think I have been unreliable, though, in my attempts to correct some of the misinformation and incorrect assumptions about Abby Sunderland and her family.

FWIW, I have recused myself completely from moderating on this topic, realizing that my feelings about it are very strong. I have also tried very hard to restrain myself from attacking, but you apparently disagree. I have gotten upset when I read some of the things being said that I know not to be true, but I don't think I have been irrational.

I have enjoyed the debate.

May you have fair winds and following seas.

I really don't want to reveal much about my relationship with the Sunderlands and the team that has worked with both Zac and Abby, primarily because of my own wish for privacy.

She took an unsuitable boat to dangerous waters at the wrong time of year. If she lacked the ability to make appropriate judgments about the risk herself, then she had no business being a skipper. She lost her boat, and were it not for epirbs, satellite phones and rescuers, she would have lost her life.

She shouldn't have been out there.

The skipper is responsible for his or her boat. Parents are responsible for the actions of their kids.

From the "About the boat" page;

As " BTC Velocity " she sailed in and completed the Around Alone 2002 finishing 2nd
http://www.abbysunderland.com/abbys-boat.php

So much for that idea, eh?

and the boat was sailed by a guy with vastly more experience than Abby. It was too much boat for her to handle, she didn't know what she was doing, and she had no business being at 42deg south latitude in the winter.

I find these threads fascinating. It ranks right up there on my list of "who gives a shit" sort of things. It is interesting that this young person did what she did. It isn't something I would ever consider doing, but I've known people who would or did similar things. More power to her.

As far as all this vitriol aimed at her parents, that is right at the TOP of my "who gives a shit" list.

I'm pro choice. If she wants to do it and her parents are OK with it, so am I. I just don't give a fuck either way.

As far as her being rescued is concerned and whether or not her parents should pay for it, naaah. They should have just let her wallow around the Indian ocean without a mast until her boat sank. Sarcasm smiley not needed.

Who gives a fuck? What possible difference could it make to a bunch of posters on an internet message board supposedly populated by "progressives" who fucking pays for the rescue?

I just don't get all this panty twisting bullshit.

Just because a 500hp turbo Porsche can be driven by an adult, doesn't mean its a suitable car for a teenager.

There are a lot of things minors might want to do, and their parents might be o'key with it, that the society or the law would not allow.
So am not buying the argument that because she wanted to do it, and her parents were o'key with it, then it must be all well and good.

if you were/are of a "certain" age and circumstance.

"There are a lot of things minors might want to do, and their parents might be o'key with it, that the society or the law would not allow."
Yeah, sure. Some of those restrictions are downright stupid and others don't go far enough. This is something I am sure you and I would both agree on any number of various subjects. But this (young people single-hand sailing around the world) doesn't rise to that, in my opinion. It isn't as if she is going to lose control of her sailboat and crash into your car at the mall. I look at it this way; Let them live their lives the way they see fit, as long as it causes me no harm. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, "It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" if this family wants to allow their children to undertake long distance sailing endeavors.

"So am not buying the argument that because she wanted to do it, and her parents were o'key with it, then it must be all well and good."
You don't have to buy the argument, but the fact remains, it IS all well and good, because what she did isn't illegal nor should it be.

would cause me, personally, no harm. Yet it doesn't mean I have to approve or agree with those things.

I wouldn't put a kid behind the wheel of one of them either.

An open 40 is unsuitable for a novice sailor. It is especially unsuitable for a novice sailor singlehanded. It is especially, especially unsuitable for a novice sailor singlehanded in high latitudes winter.

It is a race boat designed with a higher premium on winning races and a lower premium on storm survival.

any more than that 7 year old airplane pilot
...............................

she did what her handlers said

The difference between getting advice from those ashore and being directed by them is huge.

"pure liberals". somehow it doesn't surprise me...

I'll only hate on the parents who left her alone out there.

She, like the other kids publicized in the media for their notoriety, are white, rich and blond(e). It says a lot about the American media when they go gaga after people who only carry WASP characteristics. What's even more is that even despite exposing her family as people who friviously and extravagantly spend their wealth during these horrible economic times, she's lionized ( like Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus) as a media darling. The outrageousness and failure of this feat only shows that even though there are other kids who are slaving away trying to stay in school and keeping their head above water, the media wastes time on these spoiled, little rich kids who have nothing better to do except take Daddy's boat out for a world record. The sad thing is that there are kids in poverty, in broken homes and suffering without proper medical care but the media would rather share in the exploitation of this one young lady.

What does it say to the children of color when the media blatantly doesn't give a damn about them and their concerns?