HUMMER HATERS...just so you know. The cars you really need to hate

are the old large cars that are on the road that people fixing up.

Hummers get better gas mileage than some older and newer cars and at least the Hummer meets today's standards. Hummers get better gas mileage than 2000 Durangos that get from 12 to 16 mph.

I was behind a guy the other day in a late 80's thunderbird that spewed the worst crap we couldn't hardly breath.

So I don't get why people blame hummers for the evil in the world when there are older cars that get the same or worse gas mileage and don't meet today's standards for emissions.

I don't mind if you hate hummers but shouldn't there be some fairness.

Whenever you see an older ford, Chevy, chrysler, mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen, Oldsmobile, Caddy...you ought to be just as pissed as when you see a hummer. But you don't....

Can y'all splain that? Why aren't you equally pissed at all cars and trucks with the same gas mileage and emissions?

I could have heard the report wrong, but if I have, excuse the error.

On edit: Looking through google, I found this:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/22514.shtml

MPG (city)
16

MPG (highway)
20

MPG (combined)
17

Those and the H2's were extreme gas guzzlers. It's only with the H3 that they started getting 20 miles to the gallon.

on the sticker!

Escalades get 13 city/19 highway, accodring to EPA estimates. Although no offical figures for the Hummer exist, I did find this:

"Dealers say Hummers average 8 to 10 mpg, while General Motors, which markets and distributes the latest version of the vehicle, the Hummer H2, puts the figure at 10-13 mpg. By comparison, the Ford Expedition gets 14-19 mpg, and the three-quarter ton Chevy Suburban gets 13-17 mpg."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/07/national/main567097.shtml

They're both over 6,000 pounds, hence exempt from CAFE rules.

color me NOT SHOCKED if it happened under the * administration!

Yeah, I was looking at weight figures, and H2 outweighs the Escalade by around 550 pounds...that has to make a difference in fuel consumption.

If that is true the detuning means that they don't burn all the gas and put more hydro carbons in the air I think. I am not a car junkie so I may have some of this wrong.

by adding cheap lead or by other more expensive means.

Tetraethyl lead was found to prevent predetonation (aka engine knocking) on engines with high compression. Tetraethyl lead also fouls up and destroys catalytic converters, destroying their ability to mitigate pollution.

Today, octane is used for what lead was used for - to prevent knocking in high-compression engines.

As far as old cars belching smoke, that's always, always, always because there's something wrong in the engine. If it's belching black smoke, the engine's running rich, or there isn't enough air coming in through the carbeurator, so you end up with incomplete combustion, and thus black smoke with pure carbon and carbon monoxide instead of carbon dioxide. It could also have a fouled or otherwise non-functional spark plug in one of the cylinders causing that cylinder to not burn fuel properly (in this case, not only will the exhaust belch black smoke, but the engine will run like crap - vastly reduced horsepower, stalls, hesitation.

I do appreciate folks, like my dad, who have older cars, or antique cars like my dad's 60 Buick station wagon and 47 Lincoln. But proper collectors who drive cars like that need to take care of them - perform proper maintenance on the engines so they run cleanly. They're not going to have low-emissions like modern cars, and should only be driven occasionally for fun. And there's no excuse for not maintaining the engine and having it belch black smoke.

and put in new valves and seats that are designed to not need lead. In the aircooled VW world, its a simple task. For other cars, most are already on a rebuilt engine.

Lead was used as a cushioning agent to prevent valves and valve seats from wearing too quickly. Now, valves and valve seats are made out of harder alloys so that's not a problem. Most older engines that haven't already been fitted with these valves should be fitted.

Like you said, when you get behind one of those it's like they're powering their crapmobile with coal or something judging from the pollution pouring out of it.

I think there's a difference between someone not being able to afford a new car for the last 20 years and someone who just dropped a large chunk of change on a gas-guzzling status symbol.

:thumbsup: (1990 ford van, among others)

Yeah, I'm sure the poor sod driving that beat up old car has the same choices as someone who drives a Hummer.

DU should link to www.ClueStore.com :eyes:

Julie

Sometimes I get aggravated if cars and medium-sized trucks coming out of Mexico have a pollution problem. (I'm in south TX)

It's also the utter stupidity of the design. The thing doesn't even fit into a regular car lane. You can't park it anywhere. You can't drive it into a garage. It's main purpose seems to be to intimidate - but really it just make me laugh. Only a dumbass would drive one.

Sometimes old cars are still on the road because the owners can't afford to buy a newer car. But you've got to have the $$$ to buy a Hummer. I feel the same way about Cadilac Escalades. There are absolutely no good reasons for either of those 2 vehicles to exist.

there was a loophole in the tax code that allowed people who owned businesses to buy large vehicles, hummers included(it had to do with the weight of the vehicle), and then write the whole thing off on their taxes.

the tax code that applied to it was intended for farmers replacing equipment, but was worded rather...loosely. i believe that that loophole has now bwwn closed, however.

i don't understand the animosity toward hummers and their drivers either- i know several people who have them, and they are all nice people.

for small alternative vehicles was capped at $4,000.

It was nothing other than a big welfare check for the Big Two.

The few hummer owners I have met were assholes. An impression I formed upon meeting them, before they showed me their "big ones" (before I found out they owned hummers). :puke:

which she inherited from her mother gets 22 mpg in town, 28mpg on the road. It only has 48000 actual miles on it. It passes the emissions tests.

It gets about 12 mpg but I don't think 1,600 miles/year is ever going to be noticed.

How much more energy is consumed and pollution created by manufacturing a new car?

From the strip-mined elements that make up everything from the computer boards to the dashboard to the slave labor that produces the materials and some of the parts.

A lot of poor people drive the older vehicles...Unfortunately, when you make $15,000 a year, and need a vehicle, you can rarely find something gas efficient...Hummers are generally bought by rich yuppies that should DEFINITELY know better, but they just don't care...It's the arrogance more than anything else that makes me hate the things...

And I've NEVER seen a Volkswagon that gets worse mileage than a Hummer...

a huge tax cut was given for certain weight i think ..or size or something i forget..but there was a tax cut so rich yuppies went out and bought them and got the tax cut!

but they wouldn't put their little asses in a desert in Iraq to drive one!!

fly

And was broadly supported by both parties.

i have two repub friends that used those tax cuts!! and a doctor in my condo who bought one and takes up 2 parking spaces!!

fly

this is just one of many examples, and the Dems are as responsible for them as the Repukes.

two of my rethug neighbor women drive them and think they are cool...going to the mall in their hummers!! and driving car pool!!

their hubbies have nice cozy jobs on wall street..they are not first responders...

and at my winter home a plastic surgeon women has one..the biggest one!!

fly

It's a matter of trying to anticipate them, and making adjustments when we encounter them.

"Unintended consequences is one of the reason taxes should not be used for social policy"

False, sweeping generalities like that one should not be allowed in a rational discussion...

The repukes are a HELL of a lot more responsible for that sweeping falsehood than the Dems.

That's just not true. Why on Earth would you post that?

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h108-2

IIRC that particular item was billed as helping small businesses and was not in dispute. Dem support for this provision was discussed in other places previously.

:grr:


It's not just a Hummer, it's a tax break
If you use the big SUV for business, you could deduct nearly $38,000

By BRAD WONG
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

BELLEVUE -- Standing next to his shiny Hummer H2, John Brightbill recounted a perk that a fellow owner noted about driving this immense sport utility vehicle.

"He said some young women wanted to drive around the block with him," said Brightbill, a real estate broker. "That hasn't happened to me yet."
Real estate broker John Brightbill stands beside his Hummer H2. He is considering the tax write-off -- "I've been using it partially for business."

But some people have a more practical reason for laying down $50,000 to $60,000 to buy an H2: a federal tax deduction of nearly $38,000.

"The government is sort of subsidizing people for buying these land yachts," said Henry Pierman, a certified public accountant with Hauser & Associates in Bellevue. "It's one of those odd things that happen. I would say maybe half of the CPAs are aware of this loophole."

In the mid-1980s, he said, Congress tightened rules about how much money can be written off on luxury automobiles used for business -- but excluded vehicles with a gross weight of 6,000 pounds or more, partly an attempt to help farmers afford tractors, large trucks and other heavy equipment.<snip>

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/104601_hummer17.shtml

That's better than half the newer stuff out their. And that bus is a 1 ton rated truck!

I do not begrudge people who keep old cars on the road. However a purchase decision for a new Stupid Useless Vehicle for the purpose of suburban transportation on standard surface roads, is generally a pig-headed decision, and hummers, escalades, etc are on top of the stupid list.

My 1982 Econoline lift van struggles to get 12mpg and spews all kinds of filth into the air. I've tried to take public transport but there are so many obstacles between home and work that I'm exhausted by the time I get to work. I vanpool with other's in wheelchairs.

Someday, when I can afford it, I'll get a better lift van that doesn't pollute so much. I'm far from "poor" but I definately cannot afford a different vehicle just yet.

Even a new full sized van is going to have crappy mileage, though the emissions will be improved. Considering the emissions cost in creating a new vehicle and the expense in outfitting it with a wheelchair lift, you're probably better off driving the current van as long as it will go.

My only problem with them is when I have to crane my neck to see around one when I'm trying to merge into traffic.

As far as gas mileage, I have no more against Hummers than I do against many other cars that use a lot of fuel, including that noxious Thunderbird you mentioned earlier. I'd rather have your Hummer as a lane buddy instead of that T-Bird anytime.

But I salute those who have made the switch to hybrid, biodiesel, propane, CNG, etc. I'm not there yet, but someday...

biodiesel or propane.

Me? I'm far from poor, but I'm not going to drop $30,000 on a car that A.) I can't afford payments on and B.) I think is ugly. I think most of the energy efficient cars aren't all that attractive.

pisses me off big time!!

so the cowards have the guts to drive them here..but don't put their asses on the line in Iraq..what assholes i think the people that drive them are!

they undo me when i drivwe behind them..and most where i am have w 04 stickers on them...the rottwn cowards...

sorry but they are a REAL SORE POINT FOR ME!!

FLY

was used by your local rescue squad

Or a famrer?

Look folks they are symbols, but they are also LIGHT TRUCKS with very valid uses

Granted, mamy who buy them (armie comes to mind), will never, ever take them off road or use them for those two uses I outlined

But they HAVE their uses...

That's WHAT I'd think if my local law enforcement were buying Hummers. Rediculous.

The justification reaches new levels every day, doesn't it? :eyes:

as work vehicle are not driving a Hummer.

You basically have to beg for it, but GM will build you a Suburban with vinyl seats and a rubber mat where the carpet would be in the pretty ones. They're really good crew vehicles--plus it's more ecologically viable to drive eight guys to a jobsite in one Suburban than it is to let all eight drive out in their own pickups.

that bugs the shit out of me!!

and believe me , i have two neighbors who are not first responders..who just think it is cool to drive one..and they got the tax cut to buy it!!

they drive it for car pool..and to the mall!

fly

JANE DOE WIFEY?

wtf?

That's what I see in my city.

The animosity was directed specifically toward WOMEN driving gas guzzlers, as if it's especially offensive for a woman to step out of her assigned gender role and drive a large/powerful/wasteful vehicle.

I've been the target of that. I drive small cars. But the husband drives an F150 (not a decision I had input on). The father-in-law started laughing one day because the husband mentioned at one point that I'd driven it somewhere. "I'd like to see that!" he said, like it would be an amazing thing to see someone drive a truck without using their penis. I don't know - I don't understand the thought process.

If someone has a problem with people using large or inefficient vehicles when they aren't hauling things, that's one thing. But if they are mixing it up with outrage that a WOMAN is doing it, they have a whole other set of issues to deal with that they likely haven't examined. I think the use of the word "wifey" - a deliberately diminutive word that assumes not only the driver's gender, but also their marital status for some reason, underscores that.

couldn't be filled by a useful well-kept used vehicle and I'll eat my monitor. What nonsense. My whole family has farmed. PLEASE. Just to cover the bases here I feel I'd be remiss if I didn't tell you my dad was a volunteer fireman too. I believe that qualifies as a first responder, no? If he was alive, his WWII Republican ass would tell you only some knuckle dragging bore with two fingers worth of forehead would claim a "first responder" NEEDED a hummer.

P.S. What's an armie? How do I get into famring?

Sorry, your last post doesn't pass the laugh test.

Folks who need light trucks should buy light trucks.

Folks who need to rescue folks should buy rescue vehicles.

The stupid hummer was brought out by GM thanks to that fat fuck arnold the groppensteroidenfuhrer to appeal to fat assholes with tiny dicks. They're made out of crap and are overpriced pieces of shit.

From the Sierra Club.....

Bummer


By Reed McManus

What better way to ride out Armageddon than in the new quasi-military, $48,000, 11-mile-per-gallon Hummer H2? But wait–doesn’t that apocalypse loom precisely because wannabe Rambos drive hulks like these, accelerating global warming and increasing our dependence on Mideast oil? No worries: Hummer owners can watch the ice caps melt in style on a 15-inch DVD screen from their tent-and-table camping package with awning and plug-in cooler. And it isn’t just the Hummer: The fuel economy of new vehicles sold in the United States has declined for the past three years. Detroit has the technology to build safe, fuel-efficient cars, but claims that drivers are more interested in high testosterone levels than high mileage.

More information To learn about engines and transmissions that can improve fuel economy, go to www.sierraclub.org/freedompackage.

http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200303/lol3.asp

Passenger Cars
Best
Honda Insight (Manual) : 61/66
Toyota Prius : 60/51
Honda Insight (Automatic) : 57/56
Honda Civic Hybrid (Automatic) : 48/47
Honda Civic Hybrid (Manual) : 46/51
VW New Beetle (Manual) : 38/49
VW New Beetle (Automatic) : 35/42

Worst
Maserati Coupe & Gransport : 12/17
Bentley Continental GT : 11/18
Aston Martin DB9 Volante : 11/17
Aston Martin V12 Vanquish S : 11/17
Bentley Arnage : 10/14
Lamborghini L-147 Murcelago : 9/13

Trucks, Vans, SUVs
Best
Ford Escape HEV 2WD : 36/31
Toyota Rav4 2WD : 24/30
Ford Ranger Pickup 2WD : 24/29
Mazda B2300 2WD (Manual) : 24/29

Worst
Chevrolet Astro : 14/17
Ford E150 Econoline : 14/17
GMC Safari : 14/17
Ford E150 Club Wagon : 13/17
Mercedes-Benz G55 AMG : 12/14
Hummer H2 : 10-13
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup : 9/12
Hummer H1 : 8-10


Final note: Rumors are that the fuel efficiency for the Hummer H3 has increased considerably (for a Hummer), in the range of 16-19. Kelley Blue Book gives in 16 city and 20 highway. Which at least puts it above some of the others in the "Worst" list!

http://www.mainebrook.com/opac/info/kb/Best_Worst_Gas_Mileage.php

but few people commute in vintage cars.

But I support your right to drive it into the ground, as long as you aren't breaking any laws.

As much as I like the idea that few people are able to start a car that has a carberator, fuel injection is a much higher form of life. So, I am seriously thinking of putting something else more practical, and earth-friendly under the hood.

He put a small-block Chevrolet V-8 engine in a 1967 Jaguar XKE.

:mad:

I drive a 1989 VW Jetta GL. I pass California smog checks no problem. And I get better gas mileage than my friend's 2003 Jeep Rubicon.

I drove nearly 300 miles to Redding on about half a tank (full tank is approx 14 gallons) in my VW. Friend's tank is larger and same trip takes about 1.5 tanks.

You know those aint getting shit for mileage. Like the one below:

Once that lift kit is installed the aerodynamics and driveline geometry are adversely affected usually resulting in all kinds of accelerated wear and of additional fuel consumption. A lift kit can shave an easy 5 mpg off the rated mileage.

The consolation is that vehicle is going to have much higher repair expenses over its lifetime than its unadulterated counterpart.

I'm not kidding either. And this is in California!

I'll see some kind of Confederate accoutrement (usually a rear-window decal) on that type of vehicle!

to choose a more environmentally friendly vehicle.

Some old car people also have the option, but some (perhaps even many) do not.

That's the difference.

It's really not that complicated. If you own a Hummer, you had the information and resources to do better for society. In EVERY case.

in the current new car offerings worth throwing down half of next year's paycheck for.

Some old cars with v8 engines last a long time because the engine turns slowly. Those people may not be able to afford anything new or may not qualify for a loan. Some of them are old people on fixed incomes. Therefore, they keep fixing up their old cars.

People who can afford to buy new cars like Hummers also have the option to choose a non gas-guzzler.

A well-tuned older car can be as fuel-efficient as it's late-model counterpart. It's just that the older cars aren't nearly as idiot-proofed as the newer ones. Same goes for emissions. The engine computers compensate for an awful lot of operator ignorance.

My daily driver is a 12-year-old Nissan that's still passes smog and gets an easy 28 mpg. My beater truck is a 87 Aerostar which averages low 20s and the exhaust is as clean as when it was new.

Fact is that over 90% of the excessive emissions are caused by the 10% of poorly maintained vehicles.

It's also grotesquely ostentatious.

Fuel economy is only one reason I hate Hummers.

The symbolism is far worse than the actual effect.

Older cars, with their older systems and lesser maintenence, put out more bad emissions than an equivilent newer car. Older cars are more likely to be burning oil, have clogged catalytic converters, poorly-working sensors, etc.

I think the 10% oldest cars in the country actually produce 50% of the pollution we breath.

I'm fairly lucky. My 18-year-old Oldsmobile full-size sedan gets 24 mpg and runs properly and smoothly. But I have to think that that is the exception, not the rule.

That just doesn't seem to support your figure, does it?

You say older cars with older systems have lesser maintenance and have more emission problems than new cars. Some of them do, some of them don't, what do you base the assertion that this is a consistent factor? If the driver is poor, do you berate them their inability to perform adequate maintenance? If the poor person lives in a small town without public transportation does it serve the public interest for them to choose indigence over limited pollution?

You THINK that "the 10% oldest cars" (what does that mean?) actually produce "50% of the pollution we breath."

What do evidence or study do you base this figure of 50%?
The word is b-r-e-a-t-h-e. I took a breath, I want you to breathe. Do they not care about spelling in school anymore?

I agree that they are as dirty or dirtier than Hummers, BUT at least Hummer drivers COULD have chosen differently and decided not to because they don't care - in fact - THAT'S THEIR WHOLE POINT. Watch their advertising, those things are sold on the point that "You don't have to care about anything, because you drive a Hummer."

live in a place with a decent public transit system. that is to go car free.

if it were available, whether I can afford a car or not.

Cars just aren't "all that".

Cars MAKE many people "poor" and I've seen high school students enslave themselves and handicap their own education for them.

I use either public transportation or my bicycle. since I have stopped driving I seem to have enough money to pay off my debts and will soon have more than enough to spend.

They have no other option.

But no follow up from the original poster. I wonder why that is?

Xultar has a decent rep on this board. There's really no cause to hint about Xultar being a troll. Bejesus - you'd think no one has a life....... :eyes:

People who drive old, crappy cars can't afford anything better. Someone who buys a Hummer could have bought something efficient but paid more to waste more gas instead. He's a douche, QED.

Thats why so many people (me included) dislike them. I drive a smallish car and they scare me. I don't like any of the big SUV's really but the Hummer is the epitome of the big spoiled rich gas guzzler. You can get away with a station wagon or something like that or some of the smaller SUV's for a family. Who really needs something that big? The big price tag for them doesn't help either. IMO, the people who drive Hummers and the other really big SUV's are often the most aggressive and arrogant drivers on the highway, especially in bad/snowy/icy/rainy weather when they seem to think they are invulnerable.

thankfully i don't need a large vehicle.

And it is the smaller of the three.

I remember being in Santa Monica years ago and who happens to pass me but ole Ahnold in his recently purchased military Humvee. Now that sucker was massive.

i think he only drives it on the weekends.

I'm surprised they get away with being street legal (though I think the Gross Vehicle Weight rules were changed to accomodate).

positioned so high, no passenger car stands a chance against them. They are, in short, death mobiles on the highway--regardless of how one may feel about their gas guzzling and "status symbol" nature.

Yes, old cars spew, use gas, and may not be maintained well... While their weight may impact harder against today's cars, they are not likely to mow over them and given the absence of a major height differential, cars equipped with air bags stand a chance. Not so with Hummers.

Do you really own one, Xultar or just being provocative?

From these photos, they appear to explode into plastic flinders on impact.


http://nukecops.com/article214.html


http://blog.cardomain.com/blog/2007/04/just_how_tough_.html

is usually to the other car, the current Hummer v. Schoolbus example not withstanding.

But, it appears that the Feds have been investigating Hummer safety for other reasons (seems the wheels fall off in collisions!) Here's a bit on that:
Hummer Safety Probed by U.S.
Dec 7, 2004 | Sacramento Bee
Federal regulators are investigating the Hummer H2 after receiving three reports of wheels falling off the vehicle, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Monday.
Involved in the investigation are Hummer H2s from the 2003 and 2004 model years. General Motors Corp. said there are about 59,670 of those on the road.

Four drivers reported problems that were attributed to a fracture in the steering knuckle, which allows the wheels to turn. All said they lost control, including one driver whose H2 veered into oncoming traffic and ended up in a ditch on the other side of the road. In three of the cases, a wheel fell off.
http://www.yourlawyer.com/articles/read/8978

NHTS has not apparently formally tested the H2 or H3, at least as far as I can see--probably because there really isn't anything in its class to compare it to.

The last new car my husband or I bought was my 1976 Chevette before we married. Every other car since then was purchased for below $500, tuned by my husband and passed annual emissions test and general inspection. His hobby cars, including his 1946 Chevrolet, also pass the standard emissions test. Right now I 'm driving an '89 Pontiac Sunbird. I'll probably take it off the road this week because it's burning too much oil. You can buy and run an older machine that goes through gasoline like a hummer, but you'd be hard put to find one.

For what it's worth, a 1990 T-Bird was rated at 17-19gpm city, 23-24 gpm highway.

There is probably even a site out there that talks about which cars are most efficient and least polluting, but going and finding it would require people to get off of DU, which would interrupt their complaining about Hummers.

I went on the website for California's Air Quality Management District (these guys are federally funded experts on this sort of thing after all) and found this:

http://www.aqmd.gov/CleanAirChoices/2007models.html

It's a list of which vehicles meet the strict government regulations on emissions. Guess what? Hummer ain't on the list!

And there are quite a few non hybrids that made the list as well. One of the ones I'm looking at is the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer, it isn't on there, but Mitsubishi says that the vehicle meets the strict PZEV-ratings for 2008.

it's the partial.

The Lancer and the Civic Hybrid. The other one is the Dodge Avenger but I'm not sure if it meets those requirements (it's an '08 model so it isn't listed on the site).

oops never mind, anyhow i think they can't make that claim unless it's been tested so i bet it's true.

http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/jsp/lancer/08/index.do?loc=en-us

The main engine is PZEV rated.

5 speed manual---yes?

Doesn't quite get the mileage that a hybrid does, but it gets a pretty respectable 32MPG.

Hummers are for wankers. Period.

nice going. Our troops drive what they are told to drive, mensa. Here's a clarification for the intelegence impaired: civilians who are diribving around in Hummers on city streets here in the US are wankers. good enough?

Do you drive a Hummer or just being ridiculous for sport?

And yes, I do drive a Hummer. My name is Arnold Schwarzenegger. I am the governor of California.

Why did you bitch at us instead of posting those facts? Was it because it would require you to get off DU,which would interupt your complaining about people complaining?

Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury...raise the double standard!

I do not need to find out what car is better than what other car because I do not own a car. I live in an urban area where it would be a liability.

...when they weren't even complaining about Hummers to begin with (my original argument)?

Yet you couldn't be bothered either.

And you have yet to post any facts,making you what you complained about.

but going and finding it would require people to get off of DU, which would interrupt their complaining about Hummers.

The only difference is you're complaining about the people complaining about Hummers.

:freak:

I should have made it absolutely clear and without a doubt that I was complaining about people who complain about things without looking up the facts. For that, I apologize. I really had no right to say "There is probably even a site out there that talks about which cars are most efficient and least polluting, but going and finding it would require people to get off of DU, which would interrupt their complaining about Hummers" and expect people to think after reading that that the people not looking things up were the same ones who were doing the complaining.

Let me know if there are any posts that I can spell out every last detail of in the future.

old car that gets bad gas mileage because they cant afford anything better?????? DO YOU THINK THESE PEOPLE LIKE DRIVING THESE CARS?????? Dont you think, given the choice, that most of them would LOVE to be driving a new 35mpg vehicle??? SO, that is why "I" dont get "PISSED" at these people. THEY HAVE NO FUCKING CHOICE!!!:puke:

I think OP was referring people buying and restoring classic cars as a hobby and why don't the hummer haters ever mention those folks, not poor people who drive old poorly maintained cars. At least that's the way I read it.

Seems the dry climes help preserve some of them... But I know few of these high end collectors who drive them regularly... The majority of old beaters are owned by people who don't have a choice, IMO. THEY are not trying to send a big "F__ck YOU" message to the rest of us, unlike many Hummer owners-- as they plow down the streets, nearly oblivious to the cars on either side of them being forced off the road, yacking on their cell phones.

"I was behind a guy the other day in a late 80's thunderbird that spewed the worst crap we couldn't hardly breath."

I dont read it that way, but it really doesnt matter.
:-)

and they are driven a couple times a year for a few miles only. Really, as much money and time goes into restoring them, they are not driving the cars around on a daily basis to risk getting dented, stalling along the road, etc. The people that restore them are not using them daily. They really just like to look at them and take them out for a short spin once in a while.

There is a world of difference between being forced to drive a clapped-out
polluting heap of shit and choosing to drive a clapped-out polluting heap
of shit.

Trying to pretend that the distinction doesn't exist is somewhat dishonest.

It's got a 2.8L 6-cylinder engine, and passed emissions with flying colors. I bought it for $500 off Craigslist, and I've spent about $2000 fixing it up. It has:

New exhaust (complete, from muffler to exhaust pipe)
New catalytic converter
New carburetor
New ignition switch
New clutch
New rear U-joint
New drive train (for FREE)
New fuel pump
New brakes
New belts

Much cheaper than buying new, and it's very dependable on these steep mountain roads I have to drive every day!

Hummers are nothing but a "look at how much money I have" kind of vehicle for people who have problems with their genital size or their spouse's genital size.

Of course, many other vehicles are the same. Escalade, big 4x4 pickups, Expeditions, etc... all of them are horrendous.

That 2.8l V6 will run forever: it's among the best Ford ever built.

Just be careful on curves: Bronco II's come equipped standard with Flip-O-Matic suspension.

-app

Quite the same way most assholes in Hummers do. These people are making a choice to buy brand new vehicles that are wasteful, and dangerous to other vehicles on the road. All to fulfill some image of status and self-importance. The vehicles, much like the drivers of them are obnoxious. We all have the right to buy and drive any vehicle we want to, but I have the right to ridicule you for that choice...

People here just are bitchin cuz they "THINK" they don't like the people who buy those cars.

All I'm sayin is be fuckin real. Don't blame it on the environment when it is just simple PLAYA-HATIN

All the hummer drivers I've met fit the description.

It is not fair to lump all old cars together. If you are talking about just junkers here, the cars that haven't been maintained properly, that's one thing. But you referred to cars people are "fixing up." There is a difference between old cars and junkers.

I have a Thunderbird from the sixties. I am restoring it. It does not smoke or stink. It does not burn oil, and it has all of the original pollution equipment connected and working properly. The engine was rebuilt last year, and was modified to use unleaded fuel. The air conditioning was also retrofitted to use a more Earth friendly refrigerant. I only drive it in light traffic, and on nice days. It is not used daily, and as such pollutes less and uses less gas annually than most vehicles people own, regardless of what they are.

It is a collectible, and has great sentimental value to me. It is a part of the family.

So please do not lump all "old cars" together. There is a big difference, and many of these old cars being fixed up are worth more money than a new Mercedes, and appreciate every year instead of depreciating.

And for the record, a 1989 Thunderbird averages 27 mpg highway, and has average greenhouse emissions. A 2007 Hummer averages 19-20 mpg highway, and has higher than average greenhouse emissions. So if the Thunderbird you were behind had been taken care of properly by its owner, it would still be a better, more Earth-friendly vehicle than the brand new Hummer.

Any vehicle that has not been properly cared for can be a polluter, regardless of age. The manner in which they are driven also has a huge impact on their fuel economy. And keep in mind, many people driving these old cars have them because they cannot afford to replace them. Often it is their only mode of transportation, and is the difference between being able to make it to work and pay their bills and keep a roof over their head, or living on the street.

I don't condone the use of a vehicle that is a serious polluter, but it can cost several thousand dollars to rebuild an engine, and well over a thousand dollars to replace the engine with one that has already been rebuilt, if you are lucky enough to find someone who can do it that cheaply.

I love my Thunderbird. It is a hobby, a passion, and brings joy to my life. For people who do not appreciate old cars, they often don't understand, but many consider them works of art. I would rather drive my Thunderbird than any other car I can think of, bar none. I would take it over a new Mercedes Convertible, a Ferrari, you name it. Not all old cars are the same, nor are the motivations of the people who drive them, so please don't group them all together.

Getting ready to restore an '88 Firebird (350). I know the ins and outs of the car; and where to buy the chip that leans out the mix correctly. Going to streamline everything and the engine work is starting next week. I'm going to make it as efficient as possible. It is also a sentimental project for me; a memorial car to my ex who passed away.
I also have a 95 Honda that of course still passes emissions as well as getting 37 to the gallon; although in my state it does not have to pass emissions anymore.

Love my older cars; respect the classics that are restored. I am hoping we as a country can have a comversation about how we are going to make room in the new age for these treasures.

my dad restores classic cars as a hobby (he'd like to do it for a living, too). These cars are hardly driven and, as you state, are considered art. My dad shows EVERYONE his old cars. They are his pride and joy and when he takes them out for a drive, it is for a couple of miles and that is all.

I despise Hummers and other over-sized vehicles because of gas mileage and what they represent. Also the kind of people that drive them. The kind of people who think they're so damn special and feel the need to push other cars around on the road. Not only dangerous and reckless, but just plain disrespectful. Who the fuck needs a Hummer or some equally offensive vehicle in the suburbs? It ticks me off that people feel the need to own one to make themselves feel better. I'm pissed that so-called "historic" cars don't have to pass emissions standards. I can understand people not being able to afford a newer car, but it still worries me when I see a car spewing nasty stuff into the atmosphere...


Edited cuz I'm in a pissy mood today...*sigh*

That is because the owners generally maintain them in tip-top condition. Also many restoration vehicles have emissions equipment retrofitted where feasible and many also have late-model engines installed.

Furthermore they aren't driven much, so their exhaust output is negligible.

They are excluded from smog inspections because making them pass the same tests as the new computer-controlled engines is simply not technically possible.

on the road (in relation to "current" vehicles), and those that exist tend to be driven only on the occasional basis. I don't own one, so I'm not coming from a biased view here, but it really is a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of all vehicles on the road.

with Hummers, you have the pollutants, waste, and oil usage associated with the production plus the bad fuel economy. But with an older car, either someone bought it used so there was no new pollution caused by a new vehicle production when they got it, or they've been driving it for a long time so they've also not created need for a new vehicle to be produced. So it's just the bad fuel economy. Although the emissions would almost certainly be much worse.

Hummers aren't really a sore spot for me though. I have a minivan, which doesn't have great mileage either, and I bought it new, so I'm not in a position to judge. Just throwing an argument I've heard out.

It uses less energy to keep an old car on the road than it does to build a new one. All of the new components use energy, in the form of fuel to ship components, energy used to build components, etc.

And by keeping an old car on the road, you are reusing components from other old cars in salvages to keep it running, which is good also friendly to the environment.

Old cars are generally safer, as well.

I know of a fellow driving an old Imperial who was hit head on by a drunk driver in a new SUV. The occupants of the SUV died. The occupants in the Imperial all walked away from the accident. Bruised, but OK. So much for air bags and new fangled safety devices, there is no substitute for a strong steel structure.

It passes the smog every year and gets shitty mileage(not aerodynamic), But it only has 84K on it. When we need a truck we drive it , or inclement weather. It is so beautiful and guys stopand offer to buy it from us. It is what Hummer drivers wish they had

I liked Tom the Dancing Bug's take on Hummer owners:

http://www.msnbc.com/comics/daily.asp?sfile=td060916&vts=92020061855

"Hummer: now everyone will know (TM)"

and a collector car only drives around to car shows on Saturdays.

People with options don't buy beaters. People who buy Hummers have options but don't give a fuck about the impact of their choices.

I haven't actually seen an H3 on the road.

It's just a van made up to look "tough."

Scaled down, and has a better body style, just wish they'd put in a bigger motor. That 5 cylinder won't get much work done around the ranch.

and they really want to make a deal! My god the elk grove automall has a glut of used hummers and big suv's.

?

The "real" hummer is up in the 50K range, though...

He exempted all older cars (older than 10 years IIRC) from emissions standards and testing.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

....my 1995 Volvo still has to be tested. I'm not sure what the cut off is...

Cheers

Oh, the humanity.


:::runs out and hugs car:::

:hi:

Some of the older cars, like yours are easily converted to Diesel--which is easier on the environment. I've seen a few locally (older model Mercedes and VW's). Pretty cool!

;)

:)

and each new Hummer is an opportunity wasted. We could have built a fuel-efficient car (or 2) for each each status-quo preserving Hummer that rolls onto the road.

Talk about a waste.

Hate me, even, if that's your prerogative.

Try to take it from me? I wouldn't advise it.

Yeah, the Hitlermobile got 3 mpg, and it carried Hitler, but I see no reason why that's supposed to let those Hummer-driving chumps off the hook.

I keep an antique car on the road because its a hobby and I enjoy driving it occasionally. I put a lot of time into maintaining my VW Bus, so that I can drive it on short pleasure trips because that is what I want to do with my freedom. Its nice to get away from the computer systems, and nanny systems and get back to a basic vehicle without heat, AC, PS, or ABS. Driving that van feels like freedom as one is truly in touch with the road. My vehicle may look bad, as it is getting patched for rust constantly, but I keep the engine in tune, with new points every 6000 miles. Its fun to keep the old engine running in top shape, and remember how simple electro-mechanical systems were once all it took to drive down a road.

I put less than 500 miles on it a year. How many do you put on yours?


Sure, it doesn't have a converter, but it wasn't required to have one when it was built.
Why should I feel guilty about driving a car that meets the standards of when it was built? I bet your car (which probably won't last that long anyway since they build them like crap now) won't meet the standards 30 years from now either.

Yep, so we should just keep buying and throwing away, buying and throwing away - Thanks for the nice plug for consumerism. YOU are part of the problem!

If your going to hate the Hummer for it's emissions and fuel consumption, then you'll need to add a few more vehicles to your list. In reality i think most of the hate for Hummers come from what people think it represents, and has nothing to do with fuel consumption or emissions. Kind of like " only hippie's drove VW bus's", was that true? No, but that didnt matter. People had already made up their minds.

I'm also a fan of VW's, especially the Bus, it represents a different time in life, a time when things were much more laid back.

Does it have the outboard reduction gears?


You meet the nicest people working on VW's.

and a major symbol of our modern gluttony.

The older antiques are more like living windows into the past. They also instill pride in that you bucked the commercialism of today by keeping your car going, rather than constantly buying and consuming new ones.

As for the reduction gears, no. Mine is a 77. Its almost the perfect ride, except for the early fuel infection, which can be quite exciting to troubleshoot from time to time. 1977 had the bosch AFC fuel injection, with a computer, multi-port injection and mass air flow sensor.

The 71 bug is a bit better, as it just has the carburetor, but its still a work in progress.

I bought it in 91 from the second owner. I put it on blocks in my garage, and started at the rear bumper. By the time I was finished about six months later, I had changed every part of the drivetrain (2180cc with a freeway capable tranny) every brake part, every bushing, shock absorber, tie-rod end, and light bulb. The shifter moved about two inches max between 1st and 2nd gears. The whole thing was tight.

I had it trailered to the paint shop, where every rust spot was fixed, and it was primered and painted with its original seafoam green scheme.

Six weeks later, it was stolen. When I got it back a month later, every removable part was gone, including the dome light switches in the doorjambs, AND the OEM wind-up clock in the dash, which still worked. Wires, glass, everything. I actually cried when I saw it on blocks in the police storage yard.

Someday, I will buy another, and show it the same loving care I showed my first one.

I think that the most beautiful aspect of the whole vehicle was that there wasn't a single maintenance task that couldn't be accomplished by me, and me alone, in my garage. Heck, I aligned the front end with a piece of string, and it would track as straight as an arrow on the highway, no hands.

I had to laugh when I saw VW in the OP...

I always wished I had a split window. But the post-68 is better for the East coast.

My dad used to have a sand buggy, and he could set the points using the cover of a matchbook.

Myself, I used the aluminum thingie that holds an eraser to a #2 pencil to replace burnt fuzes temporarily. I've even heard of people using the tinfoil from a gum wrapper.

Such simplicity... too bad those days are long gone.

I've had this crap before in real life - always from some prick who feels like they are better than me. Its a sore point.

if some fuck thinks he's better than you. It's how you feel about yourself that counts.

The kind of bully (or wannabe)who might drive a hummer.

A certain amount of defensiveness and projection also seems to be evidenced. Where did the poster express an explicit need to feel better about themselves? There's your projection, and your defensiveness. Like a neon sign.

I think the OP is getting appropriately hammered.

How much energy does it consume to make a new engine block anyway? Let alone to construct an entire new car.

who can barely afford a car at all. You have to assume someone driving a pile of junk from the 80's or 70's doesn't have much choice. Someone driving a Hummer made a concise decision to buy the most fuel inefficient vehicle on the market. If our politicians had any balls at all, they'd raise CAFE and not even let this be a choice. NO ONE NEEDS A HUMMER.

I live in Kearney, born and raised but I've lived other places too. The standards are definitely different.

parking lots.


They are obnoxiously large and take up all kinds of space. And, basically, the driver is saying too bad if I follow you too close, this thing will just run right over your car and crush you.

I wouldn't drive a Durango or a Ford either.

"nice Hummer, sorry about your penis" pretty much sums it up.

might have to get that onto a personalized bumpersticker for myself.

Americans have had this fixation with the damn cars since cars become the normal/acceptable form of transportation . america built roads to everywhere and destroyed entire landscapes to do so .

Now days you look around and the streets and main sight is nothing but tin cans on wheels , the model and price makes no difference , to me they are all an abomonation and an eye sore . People with their little tin box looking at what's left of the country through glass . They pepper the landscape and are parked all hours in every street side and driveway and parking lot .

Dealerships all over the country serve as massive lote of what is next to replace the old last years model and none are built to last . Talk about exhaust , what makes anyone think that what comes out of a tailpipe is any safer than what used to billow out , none of this has been time tested it is just measured amounts to limit what was known to be bad . If you add up the numbers of cars and trucks on the roads today they pollute more than what we had 15 years ago and burn more gas , everyone has to have one or two or three and one for every member of the family .

They all look alike , there is no industrial art form left , you can't tell one make from another and who would care to , it's just one of millions of these man made tin smoking boxes with an old idea of the internal combustion engine that pollutes the air and wears off tons of tire dust into our lives .

People seem to think and have been brain washed to believe a car is a symble of status and position when in reality it is nothing but a stamped out pile of assembled parts just waiting for the junk yard .

Man took the wrong path with the auto , it has not made the world a better place it has and will continue to add to destruction , the libido of the ugly .

What a thrill it must be to stand in traffic with a phone book sized payment book at home while the car emmits heat from the reflective metal surface and tailpipe exhaust all brought to you on the deaths of others .

Payments must be over 500-600 a month......that is my mortgage payment, and I don't have any vehicle payments, all my poor torn up vehicles are paid for, still can't afford a hummer or any new car for that matter....I must be doing something wrong.......:(

I gotta agree. I don't understand why people put so much status or enjoyment into car. Cars are nothing to me except a way of getting from point a to point b. I don't enjoy cars. I don't care what they fucking look like. I don't think they are beautiful.

Sufficed it to say, I don't drive a car. Don't own one. Don't need one. Hoping I never do. And if I do, I will look at NOTHING but how it impacts the environment. What it looks like is irrelevant. Its a necessary evil to me.

Hey, not everybody thinks like you. Some people truly love their cars. Why do you think car companies make the most money on the non-bare-bones models? Granted, people who drive gas guzzlers are kinda stupid, but a lot of people really enjoy driving, including me. I don't have a problem with people buying something they'll truly use, which is why Hummers and all the other massive SUV's are B.S. They're not used for their "intended" purpose and THAT is waste. I wouldn't care as much if the truck were used for work purposes - have only seen one Hummer ever pulling a trailer for work. Some people do need a large truck, but most don't.

I love my extremely fast car and I don't give a rats what anyone else thinks of it. I bike or take the train to work every day, and mainly just drive it to toss it around here and there, plus the mileage isn't all that bad anyway, so crucify me.

Now, how many people on this list are aware of how bad for the world Internet itself is. There are millions of old tower PC's and CRT monitors, as well as the new hazardous laptops that eat up precious manufacturing resources. And they're ALL listed as hazardous materials, filled with lead and other contaminants.

I doubt most of the people here have any idea how massive the Google and Yahoo (and other internet) server farms are. Many of these Internet mainstays and providers are so large, requiring so much processing and cooling power, that the grid can't support them. Google is building server farms near rivers so the rivers themselves will provide power and cooling.

So eveyone on this list should feel guilty for even owning a computer. I'm gonna go spank myself for driving and checking out DU.

As others have noted in previous posts.

You have got to figure the impact of the manufacture of your new ride (steel, plastics, paint, rubber, copper, lead, half a ton or so of nickel for a hybrid, etc.) versus whatever extra gas you may or may not be using.

My dad was in the car leasing business back in the Seventies, so I got over the
allure of new cars at an early age. Consumer Reports can tell you what used cars
and trucks are most reliable. Your wallet and the environment will both feel
better if you:

1. Maintain your current ride. It's really not as hard as it may seem to the neophyte
and once you get past the "I've never done this before" feeling, you'll begin to enjoy it (and save money to boot). The difference between the monthly payment for a new car and whatever your maintenance costs goes into YOUR pocket, not the bank or finance companies.

2. Drive that puppy into the ground. The money you will have saved can go toward
your next vehicle (if you need one). You need transport, not ego boost.

BTW, the only large 4x4 owners I know who aren't complete wankers are the ones
who actually need off-road capability

Except a couple of my old cars got great gas mileage... and passed all the smog tests, etc.

When I see a Hummer with a teeny tiny lady and her teeny tiny daughter going to the grocery store for a teeny tiny bag (and I've seen this more than once), I can't help but think a teeny tine car would have done the same job without wasting gas and making less pollution.

Some folks drive old cars because they have to. A person who buys a Hummer has tons more options.

IMHO, the bigger the vehicle, the smaller the brain... and other body parts.

It will eat a prissy-ass Prius for breakfast, and do it in style.

'93 Sedan de Ville. Dark tinted windows, midnight blue, midnight blue leather seats. Got 90K miles and I ain't gettin rid of it any time soon. Inherited it from the old folks. Our yuppie neighbors are horrified, because they all have pickups and SUVs. They think we're poor and trashy.

However, I was talking to a girl who lives in an artists' warehouse, at a party they had, and she thought the fact that we drive old cars was totally cool.

When I was growing up we only drove GM products. Cadillac and Corvette are the best made GM products. Or at least they were then. You can easily get 200K out of a Cadillac.

4900 miles, no more?!

That is a major-league Pimp-My-Ride candidate!!

Dashboard computer, built-in iPod audio system. Crushed-velvet-everywhere.

Ain't gonna eat Priscilla (the Prius), gonna cruise wif' her!

And way too old too. LOL!

Here's a recent pic:

Must be nice to live in a world where everyone can afford whatever car they want and the car that they are driving is one of pure choice, not necessity. Obviously, if this guy's car was spewing fumes, he's a little low on cash right now to get even that car fixed. Have a little compassion and understanding, will ya? (and you're not exactly helping out the image of Hummer owners with your snobbish comments either)

have bad emissions but you like poor people who drive cars with bad emissions.

Did I get that right?

If you have the cash to afford better, you have the responsibility to spend wisely.

cost that much.

nope

a new car or fix their old one without cash? If you can answer that, you should bottle it and sell it.

Um...and I don't hate rich people who drive cars that don't have bad emissions. Where did I say that? Please point that out. I'm waiting...... *toe tapping* ..........

He claims he gets 10 mpg.

the people driving the older cars prolly can't

Among them, the larger hummers, the huge Ford SUV, that giant Cadillac SUV. basically anything with such a huge wheelbase that it's impossible to park in a supermarket parking lot, and so high that it blocks the view for people in normal cars.

There are laws restricting any number of dimensions and aspects of passenger cars. SUVs get around some of them by being classified as "trucks". They should be classified as cars, and there whould be limits imposed on size and weight (as you know, heavier vehicles cause more wear to our roads).

Maybe you want to pick on people who are too broke to afford anything newer than some old clunker. Must be nice if you think buying a new car is just a matter of walking into a dealer and laying your money down. I haven't owned a new car since 1987.


By the way, the T-Bird you were behind is not being properly maintained. In California, it would not pass smog testing - doin't know about other states...

This thread seems to be yet another DU classist swipe at working people who CAN NOT AFFORD new cars, while defending wealthy people who could easily afford a Prius, but buy a hideous, view-blocking Hummer instead. FUCK those people.

:mad: :grr:

Originally things like the Suburban were speciality vehicles, bought for good reasons, same with large 4WD pickups etc. I did not have any problem with them then, or now if they are being used for similar purposes. They were working vehicles for the most part. Today that has changed.

The tax law that started this thread was intended to help small businesses to by working vehicles, not personal tanks. The HUMMER factor was a classic case of the law of unintended consequences, and a good example of why doing social engineering through the tax code is dumb.

Many of those who bought HUMMERS and its clones were doing so since the tax advantages made them effectively cheap. Solve that problem by cleaning up the tax code and the problem would be addressed.

It my other reply is how is is legal or acceptable for any auto manufacturer to build cars or trucks that even from the same company that have bumpers that sit so high that they do not meet a standard height .

With the way people park and the bumper riding over ones hood and the cost to get this repaired is bad enough but in an accident at slow speeds you may very well find your head removed as your small car goes under Mr high rises rear bumper .

All of it from the millions of miles of heat absorbing highways and roads , engine heat and reflective metal heat all we are doing is baking ourselves . So you remove the fuel heating the earth you still leave the rest of this madness to continue with more problems to solve .

I drive a 1973 VW sqaureback that will get 38 mpg on the highway and only drove the 14 miles a day 5 days a week to work and back home , now it sits since I have no job now and I walk to the stores and always tried to find a job close to home when you could find a damn job .

My wife and I always walked to the stores and either carried the bags if few or brought a folding cart if we needed to .

Here in sunny , heat baked southern calif people seem to drive as much as ever and many still stomp on the gas as if doing this will get them the 10 feet ahead as an advantage .

From my perspective, many people driving older vehicles of any sort do so because they can't afford to buy a newer vehicle. I drove my last vehicle for 10 years; I hope to drive this one for at least 10 years, as well. My budget cannot afford a perpetual car payment that is 75% of my mortgage.

Hummer drivers aren't driving them because they can't afford something better.

My perception is that driving a hummer is an ego thing; a power-trip. I live rurally. If I want to go off road, my little toyota 4X4 4 cylinder truck does just fine. Snow, ice, mud, flood...it handles it all without stress.

If I want to haul my horse trailer, or a utility trailer full of hay, or lumber, or whatever I happen to be hauling, I borrow my friend's full size diesel pick-up, which gets the same mpg as my little toyota. Or I borrow my mom's ancient ford pu, which may not be modern but only has 16,000 miles, since it is never driven unless it's hauling a load. 10 trips a year or so, maybe 500 or so miles each year.

If I want to haul a bunch of passengers, we use the little subaru outback, which is 10 years old but still gets 35 mpg and has 4wd for bad winter road conditions.

If I want to go fishing or camping, or haul smaller loads or less than 4 people, my little yota does just fine.

I'm still looking for a domestic transportation job a hummer will do better, and cheaper, than other vehicles, many which run just as clean.

Since you asked. :shrug:

"Parking Karma"

...and this one






The tagline for both ads is Parking Karma, but the Zap website no longer hosts the photos so I had to get them from the photographer's website (http://www.curtismyers.com)...

More on the ZAP (zero air pollution) vehicles:

http://www.zapworld.com/

...that I see on the highways here, and 90 percent of them only have ONE PERSON IN IT! The driver.

That's a major pet peeve of mine.

and i can't see around them. I hate them along with all other huge and obnoxious vehicles.

But that's just me. regardless of whether it is hybrid or not, it is a waste of much more than gas.

It's too fucking big which makes it dangerous to those of us who drive reasonably sized vehicles.

people with old cars might not be able to afford a new one. People with Hummers can afford a car, and they choose to buy the shittiest one available.

can afford a new Hummer (and thus have a lot of choices at my finger tips); or can only afford a "hoopty" (as my old students called junkers) from a friend/relative really cheap car lot (eg cars that often go for under one thousand bucks knowing that repair costs will be a killer on the budget - but can afford the car.)

I work with too many families with extremely strapped budgets to get more irritated with them for driving big old cars, than I do with the spanking new Hummer driver.

eom