Would you be ashamed as an American if we 'lost' in Iraq?

Some republican war pig asshole just said this on nbc. Is he right? Why should we be ashamed? And how would we even know if we'd 'won' or 'lost'?

What a crazy world.

well as Iraqis, just because of "pride".

by going in there in the first place. Not to mention just pure downright shame at having * as our President.

Deeply ashamed.

and I am ashamed of all those who suppport it.

Thank you for such clarity, my response would be the same!:applause:

eom

why should I be ashamed of something I never supported in the first place...

He can't even answer a straight yes or no question.

...

However, I can understand why a republican pig asshole would be ashamed over fucking up our relationships with the entire world for generations to come over oil greed.

We never should have been there is the first place.

there is no shame in quitting criminal behavior. there is much shame and dishonor in continuing to commit crimes to justify the first crime.

we "lost" the minute we invaded.

by wonks and admen to have supported this invasion in the first place. Only a minority of us saw through the propaganda.

Ashamed of losing? Hell no! The Iraqi people are due a win.

This war was lost 3 1/2 years ago when the administration prefer to use it as a hog trough instead o putting Iraqis back to work and giving them hope.

those that supported the war, and those that opposed the war would not be the people that lost. It would be the people that lied to get us in there and then refused to change direction or leave when things went to hell. It's on them.

Kevin Drum wrote this about him today:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_05/011270.php

BEATING AL-QAEDA....Andrew McCarthy, in a furious polemic over at NRO, lashes out at George Bush for his inability to convince the American public that Iraq really is the central front in the war against al-Qaeda. Even Democrats, he says, know it's true in their heart of hearts:

That's because, (1) whether or not they actually believe it, top Democrats keep saying we should be fighting al Qaeda, and (2) al Qaeda, like it or not, is in Iraq — massed, determined and deadly. It is the enduring failure of the administration that it cannot seem to make Americans see these two stark realities.

Iraq: The place where jihadists commit the latest atrocity hard on the last. Iraq: The "capital of the Caliphate," as Osama bin Laden has called it, further describing it as the center of the "third world war ... a war of destiny between infidelity and Islam." Iraq: The site of the battle bin Laden aptly says will end either "in victory and glory or misery and humiliation."

McCarthy goes on in this frothy vein for over a thousand more words, but it's woefully insubstantial stuff. The fact that Osama bin Laden is delighted that the Iraq war has helped his recruiting effort is hardly a persuasive reason for us to stay there and continue to help him out.

In fact, there's a dirty little secret of the Iraq war that neither party is eager to acknowledge publicly: namely that the fastest way to defeat al-Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) is probably for us to leave and let the Iraqis do it themselves. Republicans don't want to acknowledge this for the obvious reason: they want to stay in Iraq and this doesn't help their cause. Democrats, I suspect, also don't want to talk too much about this, but for a different reason: because it tacitly condones the reason the Iraqis can do a better job than us of stamping out AQI. It's not just that Iraqis know their own neighborhoods better than us (though that's part of it), but that when it comes to exterminating AQI Iraqis would almost certainly be far more brutal about it than Americans. That's not really a subject anyone wants to bring up in polite company.

But that doesn't make it any less true. If we leave Iraq, the country is unlikely in the extreme to become an al-Qaeda haven. Partly this is because it's rage at the American presence itself that provides a big part of the fuel for AQI's growth. Our withdrawal would eliminate that source of rage and devastate AQI's ability to continue its recruiting. Partly it's because, as we're seeing in Anbar province right now, even Sunni extremists don't like AQI. Left to their own devices they'll kill off AQI jihadists in order to protect their own tribal turf. And partly it's because once we withdraw, non-Kurdish Iraq will be free to finish its inevitable transition into a Shiite theocracy — a transition that's sadly unavoidable whether we stay or not. Yes, this transition will be bloody, but in the end Iraq will almost certainly be composed of the Kurdish north, which has no use for al-Qaeda; the remaining Sunni sheikhs, who also have no use for al-Qaeda; and the victorious Shiite central government itself, which likewise has no use for murderous Sunni jihadists on its soil. Between the three of them, AQI isn't likely to last a year.

Of all the reasons for staying in Iraq, a desire to finish off AQI is by far the least convincing. It's our presence that largely keeps AQI going, and our withdrawal is the surest way to ensure their demise. It won't happen without a lot of bloodshed, but it will happen.

he was programmed right down to the agressive interrupting of the other guy (also a former soldier,but from an antiwar Vets group) and not letting him get a word out.

Then Chris went after the guy! He didn't let him get away with the programmed talking point responses, called him on everyone!

(shocked)

OMG!

:wtf:

Damn these wingers and there insane talking points!

I'm ashamed for George W. Bush.
I'm ashamed for America.
I'm ashamed that this country has gone down the tubes
with a corporofascist dictatorship answerable to
no one.

Shame is now my middle name.

:shrug:

Our manipulation of foreign governments needs to stop, here and now. Imperialism is a road to nowhere but defeat.

whereupon the promoters/producers/executers of Bush's war --Halliburton, KBR, Exxon Mobil and Blackwater USA -- lay down their explosives and torture devices.
I, personally, can't wait.
Cheers,
Polar Bear

same result without any bloodshed or damage, everything from "flipping" Saddam and rehabilitating him (like we did Qaddafi in Libya) to sending some baaastid in there to shoot him and his two kids and install someone more manageable, like Tariq Aziz (who probably would have resisted only slightly and then gotten enthused at the prospect), in his place.

Then, we could fix up the oil fields, and steal pump like mad, for the greater glory of Iraq of course!

I mean, really, if we were gonna be Machiavellian, evil baaastids, the real shame is that with all the swell brainpower America has, that the pathetic GOP couldn't have found anyone in their ranks to come up with a BETTER plan.

It shows how unbelievably stupid they are. It ain't just their wickedness, it IS the stupidity as well.

n/t

we went in there in the first place and how we allowed this to continue on for over 4 years . There is no winning this so being ashamed there for me does not enter the picture .

while allowing the real enemies to escape at Tora Bora.

The Bush mafia had to have the Pakistanis "guard the border" because US divisions were on standby for Iraq. So Bin Laden got away because the Pakistanis weren't going to guard a damn thing. I am utterly ashamed at how weak Bush has made us appear. But the war profiteers got on top of the oil. That was their goal. The Iraq war was lost the minute it began.

I would be ashamed if our military won Iraq. This surely is not a win for the interests of our country either way you slice it.

The fear of losing among the military worshipers is perhaps the most un-american mindset the founders of this country could of imagined. They have become the short-skirted cheerleaders of Empire. Imagine, a nation that overthrew European conquest and remade itself, has now grown up to be the very Conquistador we were made to despise. We have lost already and the sad thing is many folks are too blind to see that basic fact. What keeps them waffling on this war is some childish fear of losing, as if it were a game. They bet the "city on a hill" in a game of Risk and we are paying the price as we speak.

I've been ashamed thinking that D-Day was my father's 18th birthday. I've been ashamed thinking that we would ever launch a pre-emptive war, particularly on such weak intelligence that they've spent six years trying to foist the blame off on each other.

I've been ashamed everytime I see a picture of an Iraqi citizen dead or maimed or burned or in terror of American soldiers. I'm ashamed that one of my good friends died on United Flight 93 & my government still can't find Osama bin forgotten.

I won't be ashamed if we bring our soldiers home & find a way, however hard it may be, to pursue diplomacy & peace to the ends of our efforts in the Middle East & everywhere else in the world.

I still dream of all of my brothers & sisters with clean air & clean water & safe education & homes & health care...I still dream. I won't be ashamed unless America refuses to be the force that brings that about in the world.

This FUCKING MESS Bush has gotten us into.

Or so it seems.

unless you count the goal of building permanent bases. I would be happy if we were finally withdrawing. One of our candidates was lambasted for this (Gravel?) but I believe he was right when he said Bush intends to continue the Iraq war at least until 2009.

but I don't think it will happen without some "creativity" in the next election.

The very statement diminishes all those who died playing this sick fucking game.

although it started out that way. It's now an OCCUPATION, and it's normal for the invaders to lose an occupation, unless they take definite steps at the beginning to avoid creating security problems and antagonizing the locals. Leaving the ammo dumps unguarded and putting the partisan hack Paul Bremer in charge was NOT the way to go!

We WON the war four years ago, and Bush did his famous "Mission Accomplished" photo op to commemorate the occasion. We LOST the occupation, and you don't get a do-over in that area. Now it's just a question of how badly we want to lose it.

There is no war on terror, there is no war even, even the word occupation glosses over the real horror of it.

I'm ashamed that we are there. I am ashamed that we are murdering Iraqis and making our own children do it. I am ashamed of my country. I am ashamed of Bush. I don't even know what "losing" or "winning" means in regard to our criminal behavior.
Lee

It wasn't my idea.

besides, we already "lost"

We destroyed their armed forces and infrastructure in less than a month. Sounds like a win to me. As for the occupation well eventually we have to lose if losing means going home. All of which means you can spin won/loss all you want. It really is an empty way of understanding the Iraqi situation.

You can "stay" or "leave". So let's "leave".

...we lost everything.

Cheers

I'm sure some people will be spinning the outcome which-ever way they please for decades. For that matter, when do we even know what the "final outcome" is?

Even the troops will be blamed, everyone else will be blamed, even we, the people.

look like we "won." We stomped the regular army flat, captured and/or killed the top Baathists, installed a "democracy" (cough, cough) that is now capable of telling us to leave. Declare "mission accomplished," leave, send aid material for the Iraqis to build their country (put conditions on it if necesarry), and spend the money we save by NOT occupying Iraq in building and protecting our OWN society. Whatever other objectives we might be pursuing there will only lead to frustrastion, loss of lives, and ultimately loss of standing in the world.

the U.S. Congress want the U.S. occupation to end.

The people's elected representatives need to get together and control the U.S. and Iraq executive branches.

I am not for people dying just because I have to be on the side that "wins."

These morans don't even realize what they are saying. They are in essence saying this war is about their ego.

if we let the criminals who started this unwarranted oil theft/war get off without ever being called to account. They should be standing in a prisoners dock instead of dining with the Queen of England god damn it.:mad:

I'm more ashamed that we can't admit and get our asses back home.

the hell out.

has yet to be done. Better to consider this disaster in terms of "rational" and irrational." It would be rational to stop this stupid adventure NOW.

I am ashamed we let the Chimp and the evil cabal get away with this for so long.

What a fucking farce.

I do not know how, but we should have STOPPED THIS INSANITY before it started... but we failed, and thousands have died. :(

We are the AGGRESSORS.

Unless it was about stealing the oil there. As the UN affirmed, there was no WMD and taking out the authoritarian secular leadership in Iraq was a mistake that many here understood and posted about.

there is no f***in' "war". We've already lost our integrity, our sense of purpose, our moral highground. We lost that when we voted for the chimpanator the FIRST time! There is NO excuse (as most of you already know)!

When we use the term "war" we validate an illegal action our "government" has engaged us in.

We are J. Thaddeus Toad. B*** is Winky. And the weasels have taken over Toad Hall!

Just knowing that my political party started an illegal invasion of another country for their oil, with no regard to our soldiers and or the consequences to the rest of the world!!!

a day and rarely see a republican bumper sticker anymore...

I'm ashamed of the fact that apparently our best military minds have learned nothing from other wars throughout history. That they haven't learned the fact that you cannot win a guerilla war no matter how large your army is. That these great minds completely ignore the example of the Vietnam war. That greed, fear and politics got us into such an unwinnable war. And I'm most ashamed that now that it is abundantly clear that we cannot win this war, that we continue to stay there and fight.

It is past time this war was defunded and forced to an end.

I am ashamed to be in the same country with those who exploit others for profit and power. I'm ashamed of a government that has done everything it can to subvert the Constitution and rule by fiat. I'm ashamed of a corporate media that puts access and drinkie-drinkie parties ahead of finding the truth. I'm ashamed of the "most powerful nation" in the world running to hide because there might be some brown-skinned guys with box cutters wanting to get on an airplane.

There's plenty to be ashamed of regarding Iraq, but none of regards "winning" and "losing". AFAIC, we "lost" the day the Supreme Court overturned Al Gore's election and gave carte blanche to the boooosh cabal to destroy this country.

If the much-promised chaos erupts, it won't be because we left. It will be because we arrived.

It's not a football game for crying out loud.

We lost whatever credibility as a democratic nation the moment we the people allowed this to happen. We should in fact be a total pariah in the world and shunned at every available opportunity.

with our shock and awe. We will never have a win in Iraq, we have only made more enemies around the world, there is no win for the US.