Paris police ban pork street party in Muslim area

<snip>

"French police have banned a street party whose organizers planned to serve alcoholic cocktails and pork sausages in a heavily Muslim neighborhood of Paris, authorities said in a statement Tuesday.

Police said the party, called "Sausage and Booze," could have been viewed as a provocation in the Goutte-d'Or neighborhood of northern Paris, where many Muslims pray on the streets because there are not enough mosques. Alcohol and pork are forbidden by Islam and the party had been slated for just after Friday's main Muslim weekly prayers.

Organizers said they were holding the party to protest Islam's encroachment on traditional French values in the neighborhood. Muslim groups had announced a counterparty serving halal, or religiously approved, food.

Police banned both events.

"Because of the organization, location, day and timing chosen, as well as the counterparty plans, this event ... creates grave risks of public trouble," the police statement said. Police also said they met at length with organizers on Tuesday before announcing the ban."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/15/AR2010061502159.html

The importance of being insensitive jerks? The refusal to EVER accept that they had no right to hold Algeria as a colony? The absolute faith in the comedic brilliance of Jerry Lewis?

It doesn't appear that the Muslims of France are planning to run away anytime soon. That right there directly violates a major French tradition.

The Goutte d'Or ("Drop of gold") is a neighbourhood in Paris, located in the 18th arrondissement. It is also known as "Little Africa".<1>

The neighborhood has large numbers of African and Arab residents. It is known for its open-air market, le marché Dejean.<1> Additionally, some neighborhood associations organise festivals and communal meals. The names comes from ancient vineyards, that gave a light white wine (Goutte d'Or means "golden drop").

This neighbourhood has always been working-class (at least for the past two hundred years). Aristide Bruant sung about it in À la goutt' d'Or. The neighbourhood was the object of a controversial issue in France. In fact, every friday, thousands of muslims block the streets and start praying outside the mosque, preventing tens of tradesmen to open their shops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goutte_d'Or


Walk off the beaten Paris path

A tiny patch of Africa transplanted to Paris, the Goutte-d'Or is one of the last remnants of genuine working-class village life in Paris. Despite desperate struggles by local associations to rescue it from the hands of technocrats determined to "clean up" the area, demolition has already begun and the usual characterless buildings of our times are cropping up, notably the new police station, easily distinguishable by its tricolored flag.

Saturday morning is the best time to come here, when the local population is disproportionately inflated by streams of North Africans surging into the neighbourhood from all over the Paris area...
A closer look will bring to your attention the many huge carrier bags bearing the name Tati. Indeed, Tati is where most this multitude is heading, on a shopping expedition...This is the empire of junk clothing, and it has turned Barbès, both above and below ground, into one of the biggest bazaars in France, where total chaos prevails...Tati is not only the main clothes supplier for the poorer sections of Paris, it is also the main tourist destination for relatives from North Africa...

Turn right into the rue de la Goutte-d'Or, now predominantly North African. The first North Africans came here in the early years of the 20th century, but the big wave of immigrants arrived in the 1950s, often to work in the automobile industry. By the end of the decade the Goutte-d'Or was so heavily populated with Algerians that it became the headquarters of the FLN during the Algerian war. Today the street is lined with food stores and cafés...

http://www.parisvoice.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=159&Itemid=27

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartier_de_la_Goutte-d%27Or&ei=4oYYTKLhGJrMM4a20LQE&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DGoutte-d%2527Or%2Bbarbes%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Dv

banning a pork party is an encroachment by the newcomers.

n/t.

church when I was a Frat Boy in college. On a Wednesday night (finals week).

That is the price of living in a free country: sometimes folks do things that offend your sensibilities, and you either learn to live with it or find a theocracy that caters to your whims.

How about it? :shrug:

But the assholes who did this in France admitted they were deliberately trying to offend the Muslims. I have a big problem with that, especially since most of those who were in on the "pork party" don't accept that Muslims have any right to even BE in France.

It would be the same thing as if Arizona Republicans sang the "Frito Bandido" song as undocumented Mexicans were rounded up by the redneck cops.

That means freedom to inadvertently - and it was inadvertently - piss off a bunch of Fundie Christians on a Wednesday evening, and the freedom to do just what those "assholes" in France wanted to do.

Neither violence nor intimidation was involved in the story linked above: just eating some sausages and drinking some cocktails. If you truly do not understand how it works in a free society, that's your problem. Not mine.

Edit: clarity.

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The right to be left alone comes before all freedoms. The conflicting questions are: Is there an inherent right to criticize on public property or is someone's free speech impinging on the freedom to be left alone? Then again, the French have a different perspective and different laws than we do in the United States.

of anyone's freedoms or religious liberty - it just offends the sensibilities of a certain subset of the theocratic crowd, just like dancing in public offends Souther Baptists. There is no difference.

towards others, it IS such a denial.

Free speech does not include the right to make implicit threats. And that's what this was about(in the French example)an implicit threat of violence.

The only reason they were cooking pork sausages was to express hatred for Muslims and to reject the rights of Muslims to remain in France. And those are NOT legitimate parts of free speech.

about free speech, association, and activity. Period.

We just simply don't do things like that.

here among progressives. I heartily agree.

We simply don't bend our freedoms to accommodate religious fanatics. :thumbsup:

The street party was nothing but an expression of hate. That's the ONLY reason the Muslims spoke out.

They have no objection to people eating pork in other places.

Why do you see these people as the enemy?

definition of "fanatics."

Why do you see people who merely want to exercise their rights to engage in legal activity as the enemy?

Anti-Muslim hate groups planned a demo; the response of the Muslim community was to plan a counter-demo. The Paris police banned BOTH demos based on the potential for violence.

I do find it a bit telling how quickly some DUers race in to blame Muslims for the banning of the bigots demo when it was the French police who made the decision...

Normally, a poster asked to provide support will do so. When it's nonexistent, lotsa luck. You get only someone's mistaken idea of what counts as discussion and debate, with constant evasion and baseless self-congratulation. That certainly raises questions, as you noted earlier, and I share your concerns.

"get it shut down." The Paris police CAVED to keep the peace, and liberty suffered in a free country as a result. Perhaps you should read the link in the OP.

You made that up. Just as you made up the story that Muslims sought the cancellation and the police "caved". It's total BS, not supported by one shred of factual information.

One by the anti-Muslim bigots, and a counter party by Muslims. The French police banned both events, so I'm wondering why yr only upset about the anti-Muslim bigots party being banned and not the counter party...

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From the people who would have been eating sausages and drinking, or from people who would have reacted badly to other people eating sausages and drinking?

I don't doubt that some of the would-be sausage eaters were obnoxious jerks. Nevertheless, I think it's a bigger problem when something like eating sausages in the street is taken by anyone as a serious provocation. If you think its "understandable" that Muslims become enraged to the point of violence by people eating sausage and drinking in "their" neighborhood, then you're giving in to letting local religious groups in ostensibly free countries enforce de-facto religious laws in effectively ceded territories where individual freedoms are no longer respected.

Not all anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe is purely bigotry. There is a legitimate concern that some Muslims aren't willing to adapt and assimilate into national cultures, but instead want to enforce Islamic law on their fellow European Muslims and even on non-Muslims in "their" neighborhoods -- I put the word "their" in quotes to emphasize that, in free democratic countries, no religious group or any other type of subculture should ever be considered to "own" a territory in such a way that they can deny freedoms that are operative elsewhere in those countries.

Of course I wouldn't do something like this. Having said it, is it right that it was shut down? I don't think so, even if their motivations were quite rude.

was a public order issue.

And the Muslim response was to plan a counter-demonstration, not to demand that the porkfest be banned.

and I am glad that they cancelled both events, as if they are going to cancel one then it's only fair to cancel the other.

I have no love for the idiots who were doing this because they don't like Muslims in their country. Trust me, I think it's racist and rude. But in the USA we allow all sorts of demonstrations and marches that I find completely unpalatable. (Thinking anything by the Westboro Baptist Church!) Police presence is usually added to the mix to maintain crowd control, and that is a good thing. I realize that France has different laws than we do and each country has the right to maintain public control. Doesn't mean that I find it "right."

...if police believed they could maintain public safety by keeping them separated. Being in the middle of a Muslim neighborhood would complicate that, as would the "day and timing" cited by police as factors. They noted that "the party had been slated for just after Friday's main Muslim weekly prayers"--putting a lot of Muslim residents on the street, heading home, right in the middle of things.

Another timing problem concerned the World Cup matches:

The mayor's office noted that the Algerian team plays England at the World Cup Friday, which could create conditions for more violence at the Paris party because many French Muslims are of Algerian descent, and many youths take to the streets during Algerian soccer matches.

I didn't realize that the World Cup was a factor. May seem silly over here, but most people in this world take their soccer very seriously. Inflamed egos do not lead to cool heads prevailing.

Police banned both the anti-Muslim event and the counter-event planned by Muslims because of a significant potential for violence. In this case, the right to public safety was deemed to outweigh the free speech rights of both groups under the circumstances.

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in this case I think that it does. If it didn't, then yes, the state would be encroaching on liberty.

edited to add:

Do you know about the Nazi march in Skokie, Illinois?

After reading the OP, it's obvious that the police did consider both 'parties' a threat to public safety and I agree with their decision to ban both. I know in Europe there's been neo-Nazi marches that have been banned, and as with most events organised by hate-mongers and bigots, there'd always be the threat to public safety there, but in some cases I just find the ideology of those participating so revolting that even if there was no real threat to public safety, I wouldn't be worried at all if they were banned...

The police banned the events of both groups based on public safety, not the character of the groups involved.

their very own party on a public sidewalk in a free country is a fucking 'problem' for anyone who believes in free speech and freedom of association and about a thousand other things that go along with living in a free society.

Otherwise, people who take the streets to protest any number of social injustices from the progressive side of the aisle could be banned for "offending" with "hate speech" the likes of Pat Robertson or Sean Hannity.

What is it about this concept you don't understand?

Jesus Christ!*

*oops - did I just offend Fundy Christians? Toooooo bad!

is germane to this thread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie

Neo-Nazis and their swastikas are one of the things I find so revolting I wouldn't be the slightest bit worried about their freedom of speech when they want to air their disgusting views...

so did the ACLU. And yes of course it was in the U.S. Speech isn't just for people you agree with or who don't bother you that much. As they say, the best antidote to offensive speech is... more speech.

There, a pretext was used to squelch the march, and it was unfairly discriminatory in its application to one group.

From your Post # 29, I think we agree that where Paris is different is that the events of both groups were banned in the interest of public safety. The OP-linked story provides more details about why the police feared potential violence, and those fears seem to be justified.

Certainly no one sympathized with the neo-Nazis of Illinois (and of course here all I can think of is the Blues Brothers movie), however freedom of speech is pretty fucking important.

and make them feel unwelcome.

I'm glad the police banned it. The whole idea was small-minded and just plain ugly.