It is IMPOSSIBLE to boycott a company that produces a fungible commodity

It's pure idiocy to think you can boycott BP.

BP produces more oil than nearly any other company.

Hey, let's buy gas from Citgo because that is Chavez' company and Venezuela has lots of crude!

Assholes.

Venezuela has a heavy sour crude that is pure shit and nobody really wants because the sour is a lot of sulfer that makes refining tough and the heavy is a lot of asphaltenes that make refining even tougher.

Eveyrbody wants the light sweet crude that is easy to refine and produces lots of petrol!

If you bought gas at a Citgo, you have purchased a BP product.

If you had groceries put in a plastic bag, you have purchased a BP product.

If plastic was in ANYTHING you purchased, you have purchased a BP product.

There's a reason petroleum companies want to drill in difficult deep waters.

It's called light sweet crude. Low sulfer. Low viscosity. Yummy stuff to oil men.

Light sweet crude is the Dom Perignon of crude oil.

The heavy sour crap that Venezuela produces is the Two Buck Chuck of the oil world.

that we use for the roads that we drive on.

than from the crappy heavy sour Venezuelan crude that has a higher percentage of asphalt than anything for the Gulf.

They must do something with the Sulphur before it gets to me.

But thanks anyway!

:evilgrin:

and you can't get light sweet crude from any Venezuelan oil well.

So you buy BP products every time you fill up at a Citgo station.

Oil is a fungible commodity.

Or is it fundamental???

I can never remember...

;)

First, come up wiht at least $500,000,000.

Second, start trading crude on the oil market.

Third, refuse any crude from BP.

You'll lose every penny within five business days, but you'll have boycotted BP.

My wife almost left me after I dropped the first $500M. Do you think she'd stand for another?

At least you'd have the comfort of knowing you have driven up the price of gasoline for the average consumer by about 3.2 cents.

Venezuela has the largest oil reserves in the Western Hemisphere.

The Orinoco Belt is heavy crude and is the more recent discoveries that may place Venezuela atop the proven reserves list.

The Maracaibo Basin of Western Venezuela has long been the oil sweet spot of the Western Hemisphere. In the late 1930s Standard Oil of New Jersey operated the largest refinery in the world on Aruba with Maracaibo crude. Circa 1938, Standard Oil produced about 40% of their product from Venezuela, 40% from the USA, and 20% Other, mostly Canada. They were the largest supplier of fuel to Germany until the Brits blockaded the North Sea. The major German WWII attack in the Western Hemisphere was on the refinery on Aruba that essentially guards the Maracaibo Basin.

One should research WWII history and the region.

It's crap. Nobody wants that shit because it is so costly to refine.

There isn't an oil trader in the world that would not prefer light sweet. doesn;t matter tha tthe price is higher, the profit margin after refining is still higher.

Why the fuck do you think the Chinese constantly buy up as much light sweet as they cna when they produce so much heavy sour shit they're swimming in it?

Why are thew Chinese and Russians investing in Venezuela?

Not all Venezuelean crude is heavy and sour as evidenced over the last 80 years of production and the fact they have more proven light crude reserves in Maracaibo alone than the entire USA?

You are mis-informed or posting dis-info purposely.

+1

The Maracaibo basin produces heavy sour crude.

The only non-heavy crude produced by Venezuela is non-conventional crude derived from bitumen.

Right now I will have to settle for boycotting them as much as I am able.


Booooooooooooooo on this OP.

We are going to continue to talk, and continue to explore ideas, and continue to grieve, and continue to pull together no matter how many people try to beat us down and discourage us and tell us to surrender to this nightmare.

There was a time when people survived without any of the junk on your list that you insist we are all so dependent upon, cannot live without, and that you use to point the finger of blame at the working class people rather than the rich fuckers who caused this.

We lived without that junk once, and by God we can live without it again.

To lecture people condescendingly and contemptuously, in the midst of this enormous tragedy, about how they need to shut up and accept reality is simply beyond the pale.

The sooner you get that through your head, the sooner you can work towards a solution.

You have a habit of merely repeating yourself as though that gives your statement more weight, and also of telling people what they need to "get through their heads" or "accept" or "face."

You are going to have to actually make an argument and support it if you want anyone to "accept" it. I don't see you even trying to do that. You make an assertion, leave it undefended and unsupported, and then wander off to make the same assertion again somewhere else. If you have a case to make, why not make it and perhaps you will persuade some people.

The entire global economy revolves around the investor class. That is a problem. Are we looking for a solution for the investor class, or a solution for the working class people? Those would be very different sorts of solutions to very different problems, unless you are a believer in the trickle down magic - that what is good for the wealthy is good for all of us, since some wealth will trickle down to us "small people."

Those of us who are on the left do not believe in "trickle down," but we do observe a "massive suck up" as wealth is sucked up from us and into the hands of the few. Is that what you see?

You CANNOT go a day without purchasing a BP product unless you purchase NO products.

BP is that invasive into all products you purchase.

Boycotting BP is impossible unless you move to a log cabin and purchase nothing. Even then, you may still contribute to the BP bottom line depending upon your actions.

From your tone, further discussion with you on the subject is now impossible and this will be my last response to you on the subject.

I will not be baited.

People buy BP products every day. So what? That is merely restating the problem.

If that is not your claim, then you need to take a small dose of shut-the-fuck-up methinks.

BP has spent the past several years divesting itself of nearly all assets which sell products directly to the end consumer as that was determined to be out of BP's core competency arena.

And claiming I should shut the fuck up merely demonstrates you do not like the message. IT is factual to state it is impossible to boycott BP. Unluess you purchase nothing, you have contributed to the bottom line of BP with ANY purchase you make.

Based upon your tone, this is the final response to you on the subject becuase further discussion is obviously impossible.

Since you have admitted that they do sell directly to a greater or lesser degree (and I seriously doubt you are in command of enough numbers to determine HOW significant or insignificant their direct sales are),then the only reasonable conclusion is that a boycott can and will affect them to a greater or lesser degree.

As for my tone, you reap what you sow.

Beyond that, if you want to make sure they aren't able to sell you any oil products, the first thing you do is stop driving an automobile that uses gasoline.

The only reason I have 3 internal combustion engines that are used for transport is that there has been nothing available at reasonable cost in the last 2 decades or so.

If we start demanding and buying cars and trucks that run on alternative energy fuels, that will be a true boycott of BP and every other oil company and sheikdom out there. We haven't done that yet.

I have one automobile that is in going to be in need of replacement in the next year or two. We are holding off until viable alternative products come on the market. My wife drives this car under 12 miles per day 5 days a week. We don't need that car to be powered by gas. But we also don't want to spend over $30K on the bloody thing. In the next 2 or so years I am going to have solar panels on the roofs of my house and I intend on putting power that I don't use on the grid. That power should be good enough to charge up a car to run a paltry 12 miles daily.

So as much as I wouldn't pull into a BP station to save my life, this isn't really the answer to the problem.

what is your source?

I was asking for something other than an insider's assurance that boycotting BP was unnecessary and not helpful. We could have skipped you and gone straight to the top and Hayward would have told us that much. :D

but I do have a relative who is connected, though not directly either.

I'm not saying boycotting BP is unnecesary.

I'm saying it is impossible.

It cannot be done, not by consumers, unless you cease purchasing ALL petroleum products and by-products. Even then, if you use propane or natural gas to heat your home, you're still purchasing BP products.

And here's another one. Even if the petroleum product didn't come from a BP owned well, it's a damned good likelihood that BP purchased the oil from somebody else one day then resold it a few days later to yet another oil company. Hell, even that Venezuelan heavy sour crude could have been purchased by BP one day and sold two days later to a Citgo refinery, so even the Chavez owned oil wasn't completely Chavez owned

That is how invasive BP (and really, any oil company you'd care to name) is in your daily life.

Now are you beginning to grasp the magnitude of the problem?

Hell, if a "consumer boycott" of BP is the best answer you've got, BP is going to laugh all the way to the bank.

This is why I was chuckling the entire time right wing idiots were "boycotting Citgo". It's an asinine proposition that accomplishes precisely nothing.

The sourcing seems to be: I have ties to the industry, trust me. Well, I'm sorry. Anyone at this point who has any ties to the industry and is calling against a boycott and has been minimizing the impact of it, and hasn't been outraged over the obvious attempts to coverup up the impact is suspect at this point. You may not like hearing that, but there is value in people demanding a neutral verifiable source beyond what people in the industry tell us.

Now addressing your logic: "There is no point in reducing purchases from BP unless you can stop buying ALL products from BP."

As I mentioned elsewhere, that fails for the same reason it's better to buy a fuel efficient car than a hummer even though our individual impact on the environment is negligible when we make that choice.

It's the same reason it's better - if we're going to have dessert - to have a small one.

It's the same reason Obama said in his speech we need to REDUCE our dependency on foreign oil. I couldn't find an argument from you saying he shouldn't call for a reduction unless we can completely ELIMINATE it ... because you know there is value in reducing something harmful, even if it can't be eliminated.

The sourcing involves a relative who is an attorney working on a case involving several oil companies and the CFTC. I'll not go further into it than that.

And I'm telling you, if you buy ANY plastic in any form, ANY gasoline from ANY gasoline station, or ANY petroleum product of ANY kind with ANY brand, you are buying products from BP.

If you did any of this in 2007-2008, you contributed to the collapse of the global economy, too. As oil prices began spiking, Goldman, Lehman, and all the rest of the banksters got into the oil commodities market. Do you honestly believe those record profit levels Exxon realized were from oil production? HA! Have you been fooled. Exxon, BP, and every other oil trader that knew the market took the Goldmans, Lehmans, and the rest who had no understanding of the global oil commodities market for a ride. Goldman and Lehman LOST THEIR ASSES as they were buying as the prices were spiking. Exxon, BP, and the rest were in sell sell sell mode all the while knowing the prices would collapse and they'd buy it all up at bargain basement prices. It was inevitable. It was like the world champions of poker are sitting at a table and a bunch of high school kids with trust funds who play penny ante decided to get into the game.

Gosh, it is hard to argue with debate skills like that. Which is probably why you've resorted to that line several times in this thread.

Look, we are not all fucking idiots. Yes, we understand that product is pooled, and sold in various formats some of which carry a BP logo, and most of which don't. But please, continue to keep yelling about that in all caps as if the problem is that we don't grasp that point.

Meanwhile, your logic is still flawed for the exact reasons I addressed above. I noticed you haven't addressed that.

I look forward to your next post which will also repeat your talking point perhaps this time in italics.

link or stfu.

I'm sure they wanted to be chugging along still. But we can't go back from here. Fuck BP and fuck the capitalist corporate bottom line, that puts profit over people and pelicans.

I hate BP! I hate all Oil Company bastards. They need to pay taxes here in California too, they have sweetheart tax deals.

What are they gonna do. Go pound sand Oil Industry.

I know our civilization will come to a halt if we stopped using gas and oil today, but this is a milestone in American History.
We will make Green work.

If you really believe that BP isn't hurt by a boycott, go stand in front of one of their retail centers with a big sign telling people not to buy there. See if they'll have you removed. They will.


You make the same simple mistake many have made. You wrongly assume that a boycott which cannot reach every sale is not effective.

You're simply chopping off one of the hydra's heads.

Boycotting petroleum in general would be more to the point.

If you want to fantasize about reducing oil consumption, that's your fantasy. Here in the real world, we're more concerned about the fact that BP is a really, realy bad company that makes all the other major oil companies look like saints by comparison. Unlike you, I'm not ignorant of this fact.

You actually think BP is the one bad apple among the oil companies?

Wow.

If you want to think they're all the same, do so knowing it's not true.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

BP's safety violations far outstrip its fellow oil companies. According to the Center for Public Integrity, in the last three years, BP refineries in Ohio and Texas have accounted for 97 percent of the "egregious, willful" violations handed out by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA)."

The violations are determined when an employer demonstrated either an "intentional disregard for the requirements of the , or showed plain indifference to employee safety and health."

OSHA statistics show BP ran up 760 "egregious, willful" safety violations, while Sunoco and Conoco-Phillips each had eight, Citgo had two and Exxon had one comparable citation.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bps-dismal-safety-record/story?id=10763042

Once the oil is out of the ground, however, they are all the same. It's one big incestuous group of people moving money and oil around in order to increase profits.

A BP trader purchases 1,000,000 bbl of Venezuelan heavy sour on Monday and sells it to Citgo on Thursday. How are BP and Citgo different at that point?

I agree that a boycott will have a limited effect on BP, mostly regarding safety. But that will likely be handled by Congress by way of more enforcement of existing regulations and more regulations.

But a boycott of BP will not encourage the industry to invest in technology to prevent or stop an event like this. The boycotters are simply substituting one problem for another one that is exactly the same. It's like switching drug dealers 'cause the current one ripped you off.

Oil is getting harder and harder to get to. That is a fact. And it will only make events like this one all the more likely. A genuine boycott will involve all the things President Carter asked us to do 20 years ago (i.e., begin to boycott the entire industry).

That it would have an impact is beyond reasonable argument.

HOW MUCH it would have an effect on the larger problem is a different story.

But throwing around the word fungible like it is a magic spell does not change basic social theory.

It is a political weapon, and it does have value.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

boycott an oil company, given that they sell to each other and NOT just the American public.

If a group of people doesn't want to buy a product that nearly EVERYONE can use then someone else will buy that product do whatever it is that needs to be done to get the product to market and sell it to the boycott-ers. The boycott-ers, for their part, will pat themselves on the back for their ingenuity never realizing that nothing had changed.

What a boycott of the companies selling BP branded gasoline will accomplish is that many of them--mom and pop places--will go out of business.

Q3JR4.

nothing.

And any momentum for real change will be misdirected and lost.

How do you figure that?

Petroleum is EVERYWHERE. The level of information required to effectively boycott just BP is probably prohibitive. Second, boycotting only BP won't solve the larger problem caused by our oil culture. So it's a bit disingenuous to boycott BP but go about our daily lives as usual.

And channeling all this anger into a boycott instead of energy legislation and lifestyle change is a waste of a good crisis ;) .

How "effective" it would be is not something you or I could judge until we saw how large the boycott became.

You are waffling with your statements.

Furthermore, since there is no real downside to encouraging a boycott, I do not see the point in arguing it.

In fact, I think giving people the "illusion" (even it is just an illusion) that they have some effect on their world can be a potent remedy to feelings of impotence and powerlessness.

based on silliness. I won't expect you to succinctly make your entire argument in the subject line if you extend me the same courtesy.

The end game of an effective boycott is, at best, safer drilling (for humans and the environment). And while that is an improvement, it should not be mistaken for what changes must ultimately be made.

And real harm is done to all the employees and small business owners. There is most definitely a down side.

ETA: A boycott with full knowledge and acknowledgment of its limited impact is one I could get behind. But any "holier-than-thou" crap because the SUV was filled up at Exxon instead of BP deserves ridicule.

which means the investors will lose money.

But all investment is a risk and all who invest accept that risk the moment they invest, so it is the investor's own fault if they lose money on an investment.

This does not alter the fact that damages must be assessed and paid by BP.

But this has nothing to do with the fact that consumers are incapable of boycotting BP. IF you refuse to purchase gas from a station that has a BP sign it doesn't matter. Oil that was sold by BP will be present in that tank of gasoline you purchase for Citgo.

interchangeable. That means you can buy it from other places than BP. What is this obsession many Obama supporters have with sacrificing all of us to make him look good? Do they not realize that they sound like the Dittoheads of the left?

If you have something lacking in your conscience that allows you to preach to us about how much more wonderful BP oil is than anyone else's you need to take a good hard look at what you are doing and why you are doing it. There is something lacking here. I kind of picture people standing in a circle toasting each other in "light sweet crude oil." People like that don't have blood in their veins and they are no better than their president who is perfectly willing to let us all drown in pollution, debt, war crimes and lies. Please stop trying to tell us otherwise. We see, we hear and we feel and we will believe, say and do what we want.

This constant empty drumming is foolhardy and it makes everyone who does it sound hollow and infantile.

The only place where the fungible commodity of oil is interchangeable is on the global oil market.

In other words, the ONLY people in the world capable of boycotting BP are oil traders. End consumers are incapable of boycotting BP because BP oil will be a part of every petroleum product they purchase regardless of what "oil company" the product is purchased from.

And there is not a single oil trader who in their right mind would even consider boycotting BP because doing so would insure they would go broke because ALL of their competitors would have an advantage in the oil market.

But thanks for the personal attack any way.

OK. Maybe my context was more limited than speaking for the entire commodities market and all, but let's have a whack with my use of the word. When I was doing tax audits the word was used in a more limited but more specific way Say in the context of depreciation. To be depreciable the commodity must be tangible and fungible and used for a business purpose. Fungible means that it must be interchangeable with other equipment of its type in order to qualify for a specific class life which determines the amount of deductible depreciation for purposes of expensing the equipment to decide when its useful life is over. Now we both know that oil is not depreciable, because it is a substance which is consumed and destroyed upon consumption like rubber. Therefore we know it is not tangible. If I wanted to engage in sophistry I could say that since it is not tangible as defined by that narrow interpretation of what tangible means as it was used in tax law, maybe it doesn't even exist and therefore we wouldn't have to to worry about it. Unfortunately there are too many dead creatures in the gulf and sick people around the gulf to make it palatable to use that as a discussion point. A copyright, by the way is also considered not to be tangible, and so even though it has worth it is not depreciable. I think that covers one aspect of what you wrote. Nothing like semantics to begin a discussion, is there?

No, I am not an expert in macro economics or commodity trading or international markets, but then neither are you. BP's oil is almost entirely sold in its crude state to other nations not the US. So we reap no direct benefit from its production or sales. We, the "small people" according to BP are simply there to consume what is produced. I cannot choose for an "oil trader" but I can choose for myself and if I want to boycott products that I know BP sells, I'm going to do it. I frankly don't care whether oil traders go bust or not. I care about this country, telling the truth as I know it and the irretrievable loss of the natural resources which belong to all of us which are not "fungible." I care about the men who died on that rig who are not "fungible." And I greatly disapprove of people who think an oil trader's profit is more important than any of that, who seem not to have an understanding of what life means and who take it upon themselves to advise the rest of us who do care, that we know nothing and should do nothing.

I don't know what your job is, but I don't see an oil trader there or an economist or a market expert. I see someone who is speaking in a facile way attempting to make others who care and grieve over this disaster and who want to try to make a statement about it feel stupid and helpless. We may be helpless, but I reject stupid. I don't care what you say to me, but don't expect me to sit in silence and not reply. It doesn't go that way. If you make a statement you will find people who disagree with you and, if it is facile and overblown you are going to find people who will rip it apart. If you confuse that with a personal attack, you are becoming overly defensive and maybe need a better understanding of the rough and tumble of discussion and the mutual exchange of ideas. This is a common trait which I have noticed among people who cannot tolerate criticism of Obama or his ideas and actions. A kind of fragility of self and an inability to conceive that people are not fungible and interchangeable but have their own ideas, feelings, and ways of expressing them. An that we can disagree and still exist on the same plane destroying nothing by expressing our disagreement.

Thank you for your personal attack. I would not have expected anything else. I hope it made you feel better. You are obviously having a bad day. But then so are the rest of us. We just keep losing and losing and being told we should love it.

Edited for clarification after too much excitement from a 5:00 A.M. encounter with a little mouse in the bathroom. Mouse is OK. He went back to his hole.

Look at the arguments made against boycotting. They're lifted verbatim from right wing talking heads. I don't think those here who repeat them are right wingers or such. They're just not very good at processing information and reaching valid conclusions.

Look at any thread on this topic, and there will be illogical posters saying "don't boycott, it doesn't do any good." That's possibly the dumbest meme ever floated here.

That's because it is impossible for any consumer to boycott BP unless they stop purchasing ANYTHING.

We'renot saying"don't boycot". We're saying, "you are not boycotting BP even if you think you are."

Read your own posts and you'll see I'm right.

Good day.

There isn't an ounce of logic in "if you can't boycott all their products, you might as well not boycott at all."

I appreciate your good words. I know boycotts are effective. Look at what Dr King was able to do with them.;)

Do you appreciate the need for people to feel empowered in order to overcome feelings of powerlessness?

What do you or anyone else lose by allowing people the illusion (your opinion) that a personal boycott of BP has some effect?

Apparently you are invested (for some unfathomable reason) in the need to instill in everyone here the idea that they are powerless.

Karma. You are creating negative karma. You are, in fact, polluting this board with it.

Seriously dude, could your agenda be any MORE transparent?

The only agenda I have is to try and redirect energies that would be completely wasted on any bogus boycott towards ends where a more achievable and long lasting solution can be derived, such as lobbying Senators to pass a REAL energy reform bill.

Boycotting BP is impossible to do. It cannot be done because of how the oil commodities market functions. Altering how oil is produced and how oil is consumed is achievable through good legislation.

But don't let facts and reality get in the way of a good personal attack

like writing letters to our senators instead of (note: not in addition to!) voting with our wallets.

That's worked out well for us in the past. Maybe someone could start an online petition. Those seem effective! :)

Oh sure, "lobbying Senators to pass a REAL energy reform bill" is a REAL good use of time and energy. I think that is what caused the mess we are in. Guess what? The oil corporations will out-lobby us every time.

with billions of dollars. So wonderful to know that the politicians will have our backs!! sigh..

Corporations - which are like financial predator drones for the wealthy few - have all of the rights, privileges and immunities of citizens, but with 100,000 times the power and influence and little or no personal responsibility or liability or risks for those operating these predator drone aircraft.

Did you really not think that was asshole flamebait behavior?

did you really expect that people would respond kindly to that inflammatory, condescending crap

no matter its final brand name or form

you might try, you know, using LESS oil. It is a fact that no matter what you do oil will get passed back and forth--away from the prying eyes of the general population--between the different companies, but you can minimize the amount of oil that gets bought if you'd, say, cut back on the amount of driving you do.

Admittedly oil consumed by the U.S. as gasoline is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the other uses we have for it, but you have to start somewhere and launching an ineffectual boycott against a random oil company isn't going to do it.

The solution, which everyone has so far ignored, is to stop using so much oil.

If you are all unwilling to do that, then we may as well forget that the BP disaster ever happened at all for all the good it's going to do.

Q3JR4.
_{A fully licensed driver who has not owned a car since 2003 and who has no plans to change that any time soon.}