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Do you believe the USA should ever engage in "Nation Building"?

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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:31 AM
Original message
Do you believe the USA should ever engage in "Nation Building"?
Republicans have been very vocal about this in the past, as in opposed to it. Once the Bush*/Cheney Cabal got rolling though, they couldn't spend money fast enough, and "Nation Building" was at the top of their list. I believe America should help developing countries, and help steer countries like Afghanistan toward becoming a stable country, however I believe America should build it's own nation first. I am OK with our presence in Afghanistan until it robs us of taking care of our own people. We need to be a country other nations can come to for assistance, but we need to assist our own, first and foremost. I believe we can do both.. Right now we grant the oil industry over forty five BILLION dollars a year in subsidies and that industry is the wealthiest in the world. That forty five Billion would go a long way toward helping those that truly need help/subsidies. The Oil Industry does not. Obama mentioned several times during the campaign he would eliminate those subsidies, however, two years in and we are still paying them.. Will we EVER be able to eliminate them?
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unhappycamper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. I think nation building is a shitty excuse to continue failed occupations. n/t
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
2. No
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. Nation building begins at home.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. DING DING DING you win!
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KurtNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. Yes!! Nation Building -- build infrastructure, schools, jobs
here in the USA.

Build THIS nation!
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. +1
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
5. No
They should keep their nose out.
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av8rdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 08:12 AM
Response to Original message
6. apolitical nation aiding, of course! Nation building..a huge mistake
That's all we need to do is foster more distrust and cynicism about us throughout the world.

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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
7. Yes. Start with this one. nt
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
8. I think we can do it, but not using the military.
The military is about killing people, not creating good governance.

Instead, using standard rewards/withholding of rewards strategies can accomplish the goals of encouraging good governance in other countries over the long term. And, as with using those same strategies on children and pets, the goals are not accomplished in a single pass, but take much time. They must also be applied consistently and fairly...something we haven't been too good at in the past.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. We have a winner
The military is not the correct tool for nation building. And yes, it would behoove the United States to work on better relations with the rest of the globe that doesn't involve firing guns, launching missiles, torturing people, and laying land mines.

Once we get that idea through our exceptional American skulls, then we can start talking about the nuts and bolts of a foreign policy not dependent on the concept of might making right.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
10. Yes. The U.S. needs to rebuild the U.S. nt
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
11. Absolutely not. War should be the last and final option ...
We are damn good at destroying, but terrible at "Nation Building".

We also suck at "Winning Hearts and Minds".

Our form of government works fairly well in our country, but we often foolishly believe that it can work everywhere.

In my opinion, we should only go to war when there is absolutely no other choice. We should only use as much military might as necessary to destroy the enemy's military and its leadership while doing everything in our power to avoid collateral damage.

We then should leave.

With all the money we save, we can come back if absolutely necessary and do it again.

True, everybody will hate us, but they will anyway despite any efforts we make at "Nation Building".
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Then I take it you would have opposed "The Marshall Plan"
We should never have helped rebuild Germany or Japan.. Screw the world..USA...USA...USA...USA
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. That is a good point ...
and I concede that the Marshall Plan was successful and benefited the world.

I'm not sure that our efforts since the Korean War have been all that successful.

What changed?



Petraeus’s impossible mission in Afghanistan: armed nation-building
he US can’t build society at the barrel of a gun, but it can hunt Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.



But no one, no matter how brilliant, can achieve the impossible. And the problem in Afghanistan is the impossibility of the mission. The United States is pursuing a nation-building strategy with counterinsurgency tactics – that is, building a nation at the barrel end of a gun.

Might armed nation-building work
in Afghanistan? Sure, but history shows that it would take a very, very long time for a foreign occupying power to succeed. Are we willing to commit to such a generational effort, not just for mere months or years?

The US military tried to do nation-building in Vietnam with major combat forces from 1965 to 1972. It failed because that mission was impossible, too. Muddled strategic thinking, however, caused Washington to commit to a major military effort in South Vietnam when its vital strategic interests did not demand such a maximalist effort. The war was simply not winnable based on a moral and material cost that the American people were willing to pay.

Yet once Washington committed itself to Vietnam, it failed to see in the closing years that the war was lost. Instead it doggedly pursued an irrelevant strategy that got thousands more US soldiers killed.

Afghanistan today eerily looks more and more like Vietnam.

Alternatives to nation-building

There are alternatives to nation-building in Afghanistan. Columbia University scholar Austin Long recently offered an operational method that would reduce significantly the size of the US military in Afghanistan by transforming its mission from building up Afghan society to destroying and disabling Al Qaeda, along with limited training and advising to the Afghan military. This smaller force would focus on the areas most likely to harbor potential links and alliances with Al Qaeda.

Unfortunately, Washington is caught in a cycle of thinking that sees each setback in the war in Afghanistan as a failure of the US military. Such thinking tends to exacerbate bad policy.

***snip***

President Obama has given the American military the mission of disrupting, dismantling, and defeating Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan so that it cannot carry out strikes against the US from those locations. Contrary to common belief, this is a limited policy objective. Yet US military leaders have embraced the president’s limited objective expansively by attempting to reconstruct governments and reshape entire societies.

***snip***

By focusing on the American military and the promise of better tactical methods and generals, we neglect the true nature of the impossibility of nation-building at the barrel of a gun in the graveyard of empires.
http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/0706/Petraeus-s-impossible-mission-in-Afghanistan-armed-nation-building
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
13. Obama's strategy in Afghanistan is to defeat al-Qaeda and build a stable government. That's the only
opinion that matters to the troops who fight in Afghanistan and those who support and finance Obama's war.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. that second ain't gonna happen, probably ever.
see USSR & Britain
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Dank Nugs Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. No. We should return to isolationism. Fuck the rest of the world. We got shit here to deal with.
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krabigirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
18. Nope.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
20. yes. both at home & abroad. preferably before destroying said nation.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
21. Under the right circumstances, yes. Iraq and Afghanistan aren't the right circumstances.
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