Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

S.F. considers banning sale of pets except fish

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
The Northerner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:19 PM
Original message
S.F. considers banning sale of pets except fish
Sell a guinea pig, go to jail.

That's the law under consideration by San Francisco's Commission of Animal Control and Welfare. If the commission approves the ordinance at its meeting tonight, San Francisco could soon have what is believed to be the country's first ban on the sale of all pets except fish.

That includes dogs, cats, hamsters, mice, rats, chinchillas, guinea pigs, birds, snakes, lizards and nearly every other critter, or, as the commission calls them, companion animals.

"People buy small animals all the time as an impulse buy, don't know what they're getting into, and the animals end up at the shelter and often are euthanized," said commission Chairwoman Sally Stephens. "That's what we'd like to stop."

San Francisco residents who want a pet would have to go to another city, adopt one from a shelter or rescue group, or find one through the classifieds.

The Board of Supervisors would have final say on the matter. But not before pet store owners unleash a cacophony of howling, squeaking and squawking.

"It's terrible. A pet store that can't sell pets? It's ridiculous," said John Chan, manager of Pet Central on Broadway, which has been in business 30 years. "We'd have to close."

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/08/MN9L1EAT90.DTL#ixzz0t7GxZQYL
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. SF has a nanny state government
they really need to mind their own business.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. SF is doing the right thing --
when it tries to stop those who try to profit off of obscene breeding conidiotns that produce the stock for pet shops. And in a country where 6-7 million animals are put to death each year by animal shelters, I completely support any law that leads to the adoption/rescue of those animals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
49. All they will do is encourage disreputable breeders to go more underground
The bad pet stores (and not all of them are bad; nor do all even sell dogs and cats) will just go into neighboring cities to cater to SF residents. So now SF has shifted off the problem onto other cities.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
66. They all ready ARE underground. I say stop the sales on both ends. Collect fines!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #49
77. Then other cities should ban pet stores as well.
Good on San Fran for leading the way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #49
136. Baloney. Breeders can't go underground and sell.
Now they have to sell in their own name to the public.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
58. They are minding their own business.
They're not telling Oakland or San Mateo or San Bruno what to do. They're considering a restriction within the city and county of San Francisco.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. What do they have against fish?
Don't fish deserve equal protection?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. I speak for the fish!
:patriot:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. A bit like the dolphins being caught in the tuna nets
That ain't no picnic for the tuna either, ya know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
149. You mean "sea kittens." nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. I don't know why this surprised me, but I never thought that shelters got
such a diversity of animals - I always assumed it was just dogs and cats, and maybe the occasional snake or something:

"On Wednesday, the shelter, which is on 15th Street in the Mission District, had six hamsters, nine rabbits, nine mice, nine rats, two guinea pigs, a bowl of goldfish, two birds, a leopard gecko, a bearded dragon and a hermit crab named Charlie."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. SF Animal control --
gets every kind of animal imaginable! I have been down there many times and seen all those listed in the article plus hens, roosters, a whole flock of quail, king pigeons. There is always someone who needs a home.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is the sort of stupid bullshit that makes California look insane.
Trying to dictate what people are and aren't allowed to do with their lives.

It's not really and different from the bullshit laws Republicans push, except it's a different view of "morality" which condemns pets, ammunition, cigarettes, and what have you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. It's trying to dictate what people are and aren't allowed to do with OTHER'S lives.
People should be going to shelters to adopt, anyway, and the ones that don't feel that's an option shouldn't be caring for an animal anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. It doesn't really condemn pets; just idiots who buy animals as accessories or toys
Pet shops, more often than not, are not a good place to go to get a healthy animal, as they are supplied by puppy/kitten mills and are unlikely to be in good health, and even unlikely to receive proper care in the pet store. This is not true of all of pet shops, of course; and one city banning pet shops is not going to fix the breeder mill problem. It is a little different the pecksniffish anti-smoking laws; as far as I know, tobacco is not treated inhumanely.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. Yeah, trying to cut down the number of euthanized animals is insane!
Those crazy San Franciscans, what will they do next? :crazy:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
67. and sadly, before that, many bought on "impulse" will be neglected or worse.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #67
115. I worked a little while with a rescue group.
There was never a shortage of cats to be rescued from dumpsters. Whole litters, old cats, sick cats. :grr:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #115
124. yep, I do a little rescue work now and have a foster who was abandoned at age 12
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #124
129. Mine are mostly the bad and the ugly.
lol

One adopted from a shelter and the other guys were the ones no one would adopt. Two of them had been abused so badly as tiny kittens, it took me over a year just to be able to handle them. Another girl who was hand shy had her tail broken in three places. No idea what happened to her. The really ugly little girl was a dumpster baby and she's now top cat here.

Sheesh, after dealing with adoptive, screened families for all that neurotic time, SF can't shut down those shops soon enough even though the idea of the neighborhood pet shop is a sentimental favorite.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #129
151. awww, they sound as though they have come a long way. Good on ya for saving them.
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 09:40 PM by spooky3
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #129
158. My sister has been adopting old cats from shelters
The ones that no one will adopt because they have little time left. She brings them home and lets them spend their final days in a home filled with pampering and love. I don't know how she does it knowing she will lose them so soon but I admire her so much for giving these older, less-adoptable cats the love they so deserve.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #158
160. I have a friend who does that also. If there are angels, they both qualify.
Edited on Fri Jul-09-10 06:14 PM by spooky3
I adopted a senior citizen after he had been a year in a no-kill shelter - could barely walk at first after being caged due to alleged little box problems. He was one of the sweetest pets I ever had, never made a litter box mistake, and was able to walk normally fairly soon after that--and lived another six years.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #160
161. "If there are angels, they both qualify."
They do indeed.

Wow to you and your senior citizen. They can surprise us, can't they?

:hug: to you and your friend.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
156. Actually that's wrong. It makes SAN FRANCISCO look pretty silly though... n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nyc 4 Biden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. good for SF.
animals shouldn't be a commodity to be bought, sold and exploited. there are enough shelter animals that need homes, no need to promote puppy mills.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. "adopt one from a shelter or rescue group,"
Oh, the horror!!!! However will I find a dog that will match my drapes?

Good for SF. All pet stores should be shut down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. The story of two friends.
One drove all the way to OR because they HAD to have a purebred chow. Another went to the SPCA and picked up a mutt. That mutt dog is the happiest, most loving dog -- he seems to really know he was "rescued" and is lovin' every minute of life with his new family. The baby chow has been home a coupel of weeks and just bit someone on the face.

With millions of companion animals put to death each year in shelters, anything other than rescue/adoption is a crime to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. In other news... Oakland is now the Pet Store Capital of Northern California!
:woohoo:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SunnySong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. I don't know whether to laugh or cry?
I swear San Francisco is filled with republicans who concoct plans to make liberals look like flaming morons.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Which part of the City do you live in?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
76. ...
:rofl::spray::thumbsup::applause:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
144. Wicked!
I approve. :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #10
15. This San Franciscan and liberal --
thinks the law is 100% on target.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
80. I'm SF and fully support this.
A few visits to our animal shelters would probably change your mind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #80
86. What else would you like to see banned?
Should cars be banned because some people "don't know what they're getting into" with the maintenance? Should gum be banned because some people spit it out on the street? Should chop sticks be banned because some people don't know how to use them? This law is no less idiotic than banning cars, gum, and chop sticks for the reasons I listed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. Sentient creature =/= car. Fucking major analogy fail. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #91
104. Reading comprehension=fail
n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. You compared not being able to keep up with car maintenance, littering, and looking awkward at a
Chinese restaurant to an irresponsible person dumping an animal and leaving someone else to care for them (or let them starve to death). If someone can't maintain the car, the car doesn't care. If someone spits gum on the street, the street doesn't care. If someone can't use chopsticks, the chopsticks don't care. If someone can't feed their dog regularly, the dog will care.

Please let me know exactly what in your post I'm misreading.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. No I didn't
I didn't compare anything to dumping an animal. I compared owning a car, gum, and chop sticks to owning an pet. Just because a few people don't know how to care for a pet doesn't mean all pets should be banned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. No one's banning pets. And again, owning a pet is not even close to the same thing as owning a car.
Again, if I don't care for my car, the car doesn't care. If I don't care for my dog, the dog will care.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #110
118. There are laws against not caring for your pet.
That has been addressed. I understand that they're not banning pet ownership. That's what makes this bizarre. If they just ban sales in the city, people will find other ways to get pets. Nothing is solved and in theory it could be worse for the animals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #118
123. Banning pet stores has to start somewhere.
As for other ways to get pets, there will be several: "adopt one from a shelter or rescue group, or find one through the classifieds."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #86
93. Stupid people n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. Next up: a ban on laughing.
SF will find that too much carbon dioxide is released into the atmosphere from laughing. If this doesn't work to cut the output of CO2, no exhalation of any kind will be allowed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. So you support puppy/kitten mills? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. You betcha!
:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Storks
Lots and lots of storks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. As someone who doesn't normally have a stick up my ass, but works in animal rescue,
and has a house full of abandoned and unwanted animals (including a couple saved from death row at the local shelter), you'll pardon me if I don't find your post the most zomg hilarious thing I've ever heard.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. I'll live
I thought you were needlessly insensitive.

Problem fixed. :-)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #51
97. I do rescue and I thought it was funny
Then again, I'm a sick motherfucker.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
70. That's me: agressively ignorant.
You figured me out. :thumbsup:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
82. lol
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
City of Mills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
116. Hahahaha
I love it! Eh, I probably shouldn't have laughed, though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:56 PM
Response to Original message
21. Don't like the law. Doesn't seem thought through enough.

How about a law that makes it so the pet stores can only get animals to sell from the shelters? Everyone wins. The stores, the shelters, the animals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
23. And how does not buying them through a store solve the problem?
I'm sure there are people who don't make the best choices when it comes to buying pets. But how does closing pet stores solve the problem?

:shrug:
rocktivity
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. The idea is that if you have to make more of an effort
you will only do it if you have given it more thought. It's a crackpot idea, however.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. A lot of pets are impulse buys. This discourage impulse buys and hopefully...
results in fewer animals in the shelter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. Pet stores are supplied by puppy/kitten mills
Reducing the demand may help reduce the supply. It's only one city, but a problem can't be solved without starting somewhere.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Then get rid of the mills!
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 02:20 PM by rocktivity
Or doesn't SF have the money or manpower to regulate? Is money the real root of this issue? And wouldn't a ban generate an "underground" pet market?

:headbang:
rocktivity
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. That's like saying to get rid of sweatshops while we continue to demand cheap Chinese electronics.
As long as animals are viewed as nothing more than a product that should be cheap and readily available, the mills will always be around to supply that product.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. The vast majority of mills that supply local pet stores are not under SF jurisdiction.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RockaFowler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. Most Puppy Mills are out of state
Most are in Missouri, so they have no way of regulating out of state. Now if the state would regulate how a puppy comes into their state - that's a better ban. That would put most if not all Puppy Mills.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #48
102. How does banning pet sales in SF make sense?
When you can go outside of SF to get pets? It will probably be worse in SF now because of the black market for pets. It's just an idiotic concept.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RockaFowler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #102
159. That's not what I said
I said there needs to be more regulations regarding Puppy Mills and their sale coming into the state. Any state really. It's a shame these scum are allowed to sell their animals and treat their animals as dirt. Regulate the Puppy Mills. First step at getting to the real root of the problem.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
52. Most of the nills are out of State --
and the worst are in States that could give a rat's ass about animal conditions and turn a blind eye to the abuse. Groups have been trying to shut down the puppy mill industry for decades, but the breders are like herpes that just keep coming back.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #40
60. Most of the mills are run by the Amish and Mennonites
In the Mid west and on the East Coast (especially in PA). many are shut down, but they keep popping up, many opened by the same people. The laws are getting better, but still suck.

Pet stores shouldn't sell animals, period. Just pet supplies. The kitties at places like Pet-Smart (which does bad things to birds,e tc.), are all rescue kitties.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
94. They're in other states; Kansas, for example, is a notorious puppy mill area
Kansas also has weak animal cruelty laws and weak enforcement of those laws; other posters have brought up other excellent points.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. Good. My daughter and I were at Animal Control the other day looking for our lost cat....
The place was chocked full of cats, kittens, dogs, and puppies... the vast majority of which will be killed in a few days.

It is heartbreaking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Riftaxe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:04 PM
Response to Original message
28. How will this ordinance affect the handicapped that
need guide animals? Will it force organizations and companies that train guide animals to purchase animals from less onerous communities?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Most guide animals are rescues, not purchases from stores
This law will not effect the disabled at all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Riftaxe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #34
62. I cannot find any data to verify this
Could you link me your source? tia!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #62
103. One link; 2 seconds Googling
http://www.freedomservicedogs.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1&Itemid=2

Now your turn: show me that service dogs are purchased from pet shops. I'll try not to laugh any more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
68. I think the article refers to "companion animals" and "pets" as distinct from guide animals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
71. Seeing Eye runs their own kennels
That's just one organization, but...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
145. Do you actually know any DP?
Because trust me, they do not just go buy a companion animal at the corner pet shop.

:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beringia Donating Member (193 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
29. sounds like a good idea
or people should be required to have a license so they don't abandon the pets after buying them, without consequences, a record.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NoNothing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. Hello!
I'd like a license for my pet fish, Eric.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
30. But the profits to be made are so small on leashes for fish!
Or, more seriously, it's a shame that animal-rights nutcases have such strong political influence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. Excellent. Hope it passes. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mcollins Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
35. Kinda dumb.
Maybe they should have mandatory classes for people who want to get a pet?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Maybe they should. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mcollins Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
56. It really wouldn't be a bad idea. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
36. THIS is what San Francisco is trying to stop --
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 02:18 PM by Hell Hath No Fury
For all you mocking this new law, every pet shop that sells animals gets them from mills -- puppy mills, cat mills, -- or exotics deliverers. And this is what those suppliers look like:





http://factoidz.com/images/user/puppy%20mill(1).jpg







And its not just cats and dogs heading to pet shops who face terrible conditions:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34442754/ns/us_news-life/

ARLINGTON, Texas — Starving snakes, dead rodents and hundreds of reptiles packed in shipping crates were discovered Tuesday when animal welfare groups in Texas raided an exotic animal delivery company, officials said.

Dozens of people with the city of Arlington, SPCA of Texas and the Humane Society of North Texas took inventory of the animals — estimated at 20,000 — and removed them from U.S. Global Exotics. The Arlington-based company, which advertises that it delivers exotic animals worldwide, did not respond to a phone message seeking comment, and its Web site was taken down Tuesday afternoon.

"Sometimes animals die, but the amount of animals dead far exceeded what you would normally see at any company like this," said Jay Sabatucci, manager of animal services with the city of Arlington. "Animals were not fed, not fed properly, overcrowded and attacking each other. Some were in an environment not proper for them, such as snakes in a 72-degree room with a lamp over them, which is not enough heat and could cause them to die."

The company's warehouse held mostly reptiles and rodents and also spiders, sloths and hedgehogs, but it was unclear how many were dead, said Maura Davies, a spokeswoman with the SPCA of Texas. Veterinarians were on hand to treat the most severely malnourished animals, she said.



So mock all you want -- I am proud to live in a City that is doing its part to put mills out of business.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. That's hilarious! I wish I was part of the Lounge Kool Kids Klub so I could make jokes about it too!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. I know --
the sight of those dead cats and dogs who are no more use to the breeders being tossed in the landfill has me :rofl:

What a totally fucked up place DU is becoming....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Actually it is not hilarious
we "own" a nanday conure, who qualifies as a rescue.

You know why? The conditions of his life as a young parrot were horrendous, when he was illegally imported into the country oh close to twenty years ago.

Mind you, I did not know, but my vet and I talked about it oh five years ago... as he did worked with animal control. HE KNEW the guys who sold these birds. And Cookie has a few issues from that time.

He's lucky to have found a home where he is well taken care off, but it is not funny. Most people would have just given up on the bird, and not worked with the bird.

The Sun was raised in Hawaii at a facility that actually does it right. The difference is astounding... and that place SHOULD be the model for anybody raising animals. Here is the point. Their birds are that more expensive... because doing it right... well costs money.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. I think they were being sarcastic --
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 02:34 PM by Hell Hath No Fury
;) They do rescue and were rightly slammiong those who just laugh this off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
137. omg, wtf is wrong with you?
?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #137
146. It's sarcasm.
Read upthread for more details.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. +1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #36
59. + a hella-vote (10^27)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix#Hella-

The pounds and shelters are filled to overflowing. But some people just clutch their pearls at the thought of buying a "used" pet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
83. No it's not
"People buy small animals all the time as an impulse buy, don't know what they're getting into, and the animals end up at the shelter and often are euthanized," said commission Chairwoman Sally Stephens. "That's what we'd like to stop."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #83
101. Yes, the puppy mill issue IS one of the reasons --
I live here, I have followed this bill, and it is part of the overall intend.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
84. Thank you. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
41. Ridiculous.
:thumbsdown:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
42. they may not succeed but kudos to trying to do the right thing
the rest of us dont even bother to try anymore
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
53. Leading the Charge Into Realms of Idiocy
This is exactly the kind of shit that the right loves to smear liberals with. Countdown to Hannity, Beck, O'Riely, et. al. carrying on about this:

"Did you see this, did you hear about this? I wouldn't believe it if it wasn't int he SF paper. That bastion of extreme liberalism wants to take your pets away now. Yeah, you won't be able to buy or own a dog or cat in San Francisco..."

Or something like that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #53
133. What part of reducing the number of abandoned and euthanized animals is unclear?
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 05:09 PM by EFerrari
And San Francisco is a great town for dogs and dog owners. Dogs are allowed on leash on the beach and there's a huge doggie area in Golden Gate Park.

The idiots in the situation are the right wing media and their enablers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
55. Reality intrudes again
no this doesn't get rid of puppy mills, it just means those sold to these stores will be shifted to another city and people will continue to buy them, bring them into SF and still have strays that need homes filling up their shelters. This is about as sensible as giving bus tickets to homeless people to get out of town. Yeah they leave town but another homeless person comes in. The puppy mills aren't really mentioned as part of what they are going after and the strays will continue because people can still get them. This isn't a logical solution and is a waste of time and money. How about coming up with sensible and workable solutions instead?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. San Francisco has a histiory of leading the way --
when it comes to animal issues. Our SPCA is no kill, we have an aggressive/hugely successful adoption program, we lead in the neutering/vaccinating of our feral colonies, and now we lead with this law.

Others will follow and, in time, the mills will be broken.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #55
74. Shhhh.
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 03:42 PM by Patsy Stone
You'll spoil the party.

I don't know why the good, animal loving people of SF just don't stop shopping there of their own volition. You'd think that would be the easiest way to put them out of business, no?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. San Francisco is like all cities (and websites).
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 03:51 PM by superduperfarleft
Some of the people in them are responsible people that support sensible legislation like this. Some are pot-shotting, peanut gallery assholes that contribute nothing.

Like all cities. And websites.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #79
143. Are you going for two deleted posts
in the same thread? As "agressively ignorant" as I am, at least I didn't resort to name calling.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jp11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
61. It is an excellent idea, and if everyone bans the selling of pets then kids can get
their small pets from the streets, trappin' squirrels or rats, 'I only wanted a mouse', "Well maybe you can catch one Timmy!"

Want a snake? Go out to the woods or down by the river and hope none of them are poisonous, how about a spider or tarantula, same deal lil's Sally head down to your basement and see if you can catch a spider, maybe look for a big black one.


:sarcasm:

There are other ways to deal with abandoned pets like performing some sort of registration of pets, so when they are found owners are forced to pay to have it put down or pay to recover it from the shelter, RFID chips in dogs/cats, tattoos somewhere, or some sort of other id system like retina scanning. Fees to make 'cheap' pets more expensive or requiring licenses to purchase animals like guinea pigs, rats, bunnies, etc to discourage 'impulse buys', required pet training courses in order to qualify to purchase an animal, forcing the purchase of dogs/cats from shelters over stores, and so on. Any of those could be a better alternative to pushing the problem to the next town, or simply declaring a store can not sell pets.

A small pet is a 'good' learning experience for children and parents who simply 'must' get them a pet rather than letting them toy with an animal that will breed and suffer out in the wild like a dog or cat. I'd prefer people took care of their pets properly and didn't go buy 'new' animals when so many are out on the street abandoned, forgotten, abused, and breeding but this doesn't seem to me the best solution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #61
72. This will not stop any family from getting such a pet --
they will just have to adopt it from the Shelter or a rescue group. Our Animal Control has just such animals available every day, and there are plenty of rescue groups with small animals. My sister's group rescued 200+ hamsters and dozens of lizards/snakes/geckos -- she would love to have them adopted out and works very hard to do so -- too bad she lives in an area where those animals are available at her local pet stores.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #72
81. Lots of rescues for bunnies, reptiles, ferrets, etc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jp11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #72
138. You learn something new everyday.
I did not know people rescued hamsters etc, I didn't know people abandoned them either, I can't imagine where people go to dump them. 200 hamsters, did a truck tip over? or a couple of stores get broken in to by animal rescuers?

My point was as I said *IF* all such sales were banned as one poster seemed to agree with, the result would be for people to get 'small' pets from the streets and wild, which is also where people who rescue them would probably get them. The small animals being rescued have to either be descendants from abandoned animals, abandoned animals, or wild counterparts that either were displaced by human development or migrated, most likely due to human development.

I admit knowing nothing of small animal/creature rescue, I don't know how someone rescues lizards, snakes, etc. are they found in people's yards and captured? Do people go hunting form them in streams, ponds, fields cause the latter sounds like hunting/capture not rescue. How do you rescue gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, rats, mice, ferrets, rabbits, etc, some of them are probably wild and had a real home before people moved in. Are they tested for disease, rabies, checked for ticks etc?

If they are all just surrendered animals, given over because people don't want them wouldn't some of what I mentioned in the second part of my post have helped prevent careless owners deciding they couldn't deal with a creature that lives in a cage?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
63. Recommended. (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
64. Until the animal shelters are empty, an excellent idea
people do NOT need $1000 designer dogs like my friend's rich daughter has. in fairness though their other dog is a shelter dog - and is by far the better of the two. Good for SF.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SunnySong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Do the local animal shelters import strays from out of state or even out of the country?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. The NAIA is a shill organization for the AKC. They're doing this to protect their business, not out
of concern for animals.

http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=NAIA

Anywho, so what if shelters are "importing" animals in an attempt to get them adopted. That article is basically complaining that certain cities have so few stray/abandoned dogs that they have to import them from overcrowded shelters. That's a bad thing? (I mean, to a rational person, not a front group for corporate breeder scum.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #73
142. Exactly.
Doesn't surprise me at all to see the poster reference them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #65
78. Which is a very good thing -- many NC shelters received Vick's dogs
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 03:46 PM by LostinVA
And shelters take in Hoarder's animals and animals when puppy and kitten mills are busted.

Plus, the source you are using is, basically, a front for the AKC, who makes lots of money off of puppy mills and destroying sound breeds like the Border Collie. They suck. It's like a BP saying why environmentalists suck.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #65
96. In MA we have controlled the stray population and take in strays from the south
Our shelters are filled with the cast-aways found dumped on highways and along roadsides - dogs not 'good enough' to hunt, too 'imperfect' to sell. Our rescues take in strays from Puerto Rico where 1000s of dogs are routinely abandoned and abused.

We have largely controlled pet overpopulation here and are working to help fix it elsewhere.

How is that a bad thing?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
69. This is total nanny-state BS!
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 03:34 PM by Odin2005
Shame on San-Fran!

And this won't do ANYTHING to get rid of puppy mills.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. Herp de derp. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #69
87. They should outlaw people.
Because without people, there will be no one to adopt pets. :rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
85. I don't think a ban is justified.
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 03:55 PM by backscatter712
Still, it's good to encourage people who want pets to go to the friendly neighborhood animal shelter.

And I really don't like the idea of putting ethical dog and cat breeders out of business. Puppy mills? Yeah, shut them down. But there are lots of good people who breed dogs and cats, do so ethically, take care of their animals and make sure they go to good homes, and those people should be encouraged.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Biker13 Donating Member (609 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #85
131. You're Right backscatter712!
I've bought Golden Retrievers from Ann Johnson (Of Johnson & Johnson fame)in Princeton NJ. I've seen her kennels, I should live so well! She's done a lot to stop the shoddy over breeding of Goldens, and has improved the breed considerably! Breeders like her should be encouraged, it's the puppy mills that need to be shut down!

I'm in Idaho now, and our local pet store only sells shelter animals, but will recommend local breeders, good ones, on request. I good compromise I think.

Biker's Old Lady
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
88. So rather than putting for the actual effort to get rid of puppy mills and bad animal dealers,
San Francisco just bans selling animals, and will then look on in horror as these operations go further underground.

Has the city ever simply considered dedicating a handful of their animal control folks to getting rid of puppy mills in the area?

I would say not, they just want to ban stuff.

This is going to turn out badly.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. I for one believe they should add fish to the ban.
Fish are nasty little critters. People dump them into public water and ruin the local ecology. This outrage cannot stand! :D
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. Problem is the mills are points east
and last time I checked San Fran Animal control don't have jurisdiction in Missouri or Pennsylvanian but I might be wrong.

No the effort should be at the FEDERAL level... but while in theory there is federal regulation of these mills, enforcement makes the MMS look like they did a good job.

I agree with you insofar as putting the mills out of bidness, but that ain't gonna happen, and since they don't have them near... they are following London and a few other European cities.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #92
98. I agree that the mills are mostly outside SF,
But banning the sale of pets is like busting the user for the pot while letting the dealer go free. Go after the puppy mills, but banning pet sales actually is going to hurt legit breeders, pet shops, and simply drive the problem underground even more.

If this goes federal, then this country will have officially jumped the shark. All that money that would be used to enforce the ban and punish offenders would be better spent going after the bad breeders.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #98
100. Gone federal,
the mills supposedly fall under the same rules and regulations as ... chicken coops under the FDA if I remember correctly.

Been this way for over twenty years, as they are treated under livestock laws. Why rarely a mill is closed under federal regulation.

But san fran has no jurisdiction over the mills...

And until they are closed...

They are doing what they think is the best solution to the problem, which is quite serious.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #100
108. Actually puppy mills can be busted under local, state or federal laws
Usually, at least out east, it is taken care of under state jurisdiction.

But again, this is simply not the way to take care of the problem. Attack it at the source rather than at the end. This ban will do nothing to stop puppy mills, but it will make life hell for the residents of San Francisco. I can just imagine being stopped by the police and asked to prove if my dogs were bought or adapted. Under threat of law.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #108
112. "can just imagine being stopped by the police and asked to prove if my dogs were bought or adapted"
Psst, you're needed in the hyperbole subthread down below. Come on in, it's fun!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #108
117. You asked about federal
I answered that it's gone federal

This is not London (and a few other municipalities). With them it was effective. But we are talking of a much smaller country.

Here the only way something like this would work is if a few large states barred stores... or enforced the bans on puppy mill sales that already exist in the books.

Part of the problem is enforcement actually. If there was a will, these mills could be closed fairly fast. But there are few other priorities and in places like oh Kansas you do get quite a bit of a conflict between local laws (weak as hell) and federal law... and we know how that goes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #98
114. Legit breeders would still be in business n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #98
122. If people have to buy from breeders, bad breeders can't slide.
Their buffer is gone. I bought my girl from a breeder. If that lady had been running an abusive operation, I would have turned her in in a heartbeat.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #88
113. They're doing that too. The rescue organizations in SF fully support this
I can't tell you how many purebred dogs I've rescued from San Francisco parks. People buy them in pet stores because they're so *cute* and then abandon them or tie them to street poles with little signs saying they're up for grabs.

The reasoning behind this ordinance is to lessen the demand for puppy mills and lessen the number of abandoned pets from impulse buyers.

I'm sick of rescuing pet store victims. We can always tell what kind of breeds are going to get dumped according to the latest fashions that pet stores cater to. After Marley, it was yellow labs. Now it's dogs like "puggles" and "labradoodles". People who make money breeding and selling animals with little regard about those animals' fate need to be put out of business. I have no sympathy for any store owners or shoppers who feel inconvenienced by this. There are plently of boutique-style shelters where people can go and *buy* pets for a nominal adoption fee that helps the city and helps other animals.

Other cities in CA already have similar laws (West Hollywood, CA, Albuquerque, N.M., and South Lake Tahoe, Calif. From that same article "Other cities in Florida, New Mexico, Missouri and elsewhere are considering similar bans on the sale of dogs and cats." This needs to spread.



....

To see what really happens when a city bans pet sales, you have to go to Albuquerque, N.M. The Southwestern city banned sales of "companion animals," including cats and dogs, in 2006, and has seen a marked, positive effect, said Peggy Weigle, executive director of Animal Humane New Mexico.

Since the ban started, animal adoptions have increased 23 percent and euthanasia at city shelters has decreased by 35 percent.


“By stopping these pet shops,” Weigle said, “what you're really doing is you're reducing the demand for puppy-mill puppies.”

At the same time, Weigle said, her private animal shelter has stepped in to fill the place of pet stores for people who want pets but don't necessarily want to brave the city shelter. In February, Animal Humane New Mexico opened a boutique-style adoption center with just a few hand-picked animals — mostly puppies, many of them pure-bred dogs that were abandoned or rescued by the shelter — so that people could "shop" for shelter dogs in a pleasant, retail-like environment.


Her goal was to adopt out 45 animals in the first month; instead, they placed 118 animals in new homes. Adoptions have been so plentiful, Weigle said, that her organization is preparing to open a second adoption boutique. Weigle said she recently had a young purebred Yorkshire Terrier available for adoption for just $135, the standard adoption fee.

"Many people will say, 'Oh, I just can't go to the shelter, it's just too sad,'" Weigle said. "But if you make a guilt-free shopping experience available, and they don't have to be confronted with 100 homeless pets staring them in the face, the shopping experience is very parallel to a pet store. If you give the public a choice to shop in that kind of an environment, they will."

...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37359894/ns/health-pet_health/






...

In the US, according to many estimates, more than four million cats and dogs are killed in shelters every year. That’s a difficult figure to comprehend, but what it actually means is that more than 280 cats and 180 dogs are put to death every single hour of every single day. All the while, puppy mills alone breed an estimated two to four million dogs in the US every year.

What many people do not realize about shelter animals is that they don’t all come from homes where they are no longer wanted. Many of them are actually ‘unsold’ animals from pet stores themselves. In addition to those who end up being killed at the shelters, there are inestimable numbers of pet store animals who end up being ‘disposed of’ some other way. According to some sources, these animals can end up being killed on site, or, probably more frequently, they get returned to the breeder. In the case of animals from mills, this likely means they end up being killed at the mill, turned into breeding animals, or sometimes even sold to vivisection labs.

...




Please help us put an end to this nightmare.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
90. How North Korean of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #90
95. Seriously, this is worse than 9/11 and the Holocaust combined. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #95
99. This is like the HyperBowl of hyperbole. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #95
105. This law sounds like something the Taliban would come up with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #105
111. Wait, did I not go far enough?
Fine, it's worse than 9/11, the Holocaust, the Challenger explosion, and the cancellation of Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles COMBINNNNNNEDDDDD!!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #111
119. lol
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #111
148. This law killed the Infant Jesus.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #105
120. Or Hitler!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. Right!
lol
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
107. Some other U.S. cities that have banned pet stores...
Albuquerque, N.M., West Hollywood, & So. Lake Tahoe. The article linked below hints at other cities but doesn't name them.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37359894/ns/health-pet_health


To see what really happens when a city bans pet sales, you have to go to Albuquerque, N.M. The Southwestern city banned sales of "companion animals," including cats and dogs, in 2006, and has seen a marked, positive effect, said

Peggy Weigle, executive director of Animal Humane New Mexico.

Since the ban started, animal adoptions have increased 23 percent and euthanasia at city shelters has decreased by 35 percent.

“By stopping these pet shops,” Weigle said, “what you're really doing is you're reducing the demand for puppy-mill puppies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
125. Self delete
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 04:50 PM by AsahinaKimi
**
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blueworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
126. How do they feel about licensing parents?
We rescued our parrot from a family that was neglecting him so severely a mutual friend was afraid for his life. He is now thriving & fertilizing our hardwood floors while talking up a storm & filling our hearts. We adopted our dog from a "pet open house" run by Pet Smart where area shelters bring cats, dogs etc. on weekends & you can get to see them & know them & get discount certificates to have them spayed or neutered. We love animals & participate in a variety of "humane" organizations.

Now, as a parent & potential grandparent, how does SF feel about abused, neglected children? Any licensing or parenting classes required? What does SF do about foster children when they turn 18 & have to sleep on subways? Does the city run internships or summer jobs programs for underprivileged kids?

Educating kids & families about the responsibility of pet ownership is important, but somehow my teeth buzz when we legislate for animals & won't squeeze out tax pennies for human children. I agree animal "breeders" & "importers" should be strictly regulated, but banning pets?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. Jesus f'in christ, no one is banning pets.
It's really not that long an article...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #128
154. There's an article?
That's weird, I only read the subject line. Well, skimmed it, anyway... ;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
blueworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #128
162. Then think through what they're proposing....n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
superduperfarleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-10-10 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #162
163. If you genuinely think that anyone anywhere is proposing a law that they hope will eventually ban
the ownership of pets, that's a level of insane paranoia that I can't help you with.

They're banning pet stores. That's it. Shelters will still be able to adopt out. Neighbors will still be able to sell puppies through the classifieds. Backyard breeder scum will still be able to operate, but they won't be able to make a living supplying pet stores. This should be the case everywhere, not just SF.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
127. Those of you with knee-jerk criticism of this law, please volunteer for your local animal rescue.
I deal with the results of these pet store sales every day. In my case, I take in birds that have been injured, sickened, traumatized and/or neglected by pet store owners who treat these creatures as disposable toys.

This is particularly telling:

Joe Taylor, bird manager of Animal Connection on Judah Street, called the proposal "ludicrous."

"What difference does it make if you get a parrot at the SPCA or a pet store? If it doesn't work out, in either case, you just bring it back," Taylor said. "This would be terrible for our business."


The difference it makes, Joe, is that people who adopt parrots from the SPCA are adopting parrots from an educated person who cares more about the animal than about making a profit. For example, SPCA workers will not recommend that you feed your parrot cheap, high-profit seed mix that takes years off their life. They won't try to "up-sell" someone, saddling them with a difficult bird that they aren't ready to deal with. And they won't sell you oyster grit, mite repellents or other toxic accessories that can kill a parrot outright.

And, mostly, the SPCA or the rescue I work with will offer you support and education FREE OF CHARGE, so that you'll be prepared for the life-change that comes along with adopting a parrot. That way, you don't have to "just bring it back". After all, this isn't some sort of malfunctioning appliance -- "it" is an intelligent, emotional creature who has likely been permanently scarred by his or her experience with unprepared caregivers.

I don't know how many birds we've taken in from Joe's store, but I'm betting we've seen more than a few. My hope is that this law passes and that it spreads to the rest of the Bay Area. It would be a HUGE load off of rescuers who are constantly cleaning up the messes caused by the profiteering animal trade.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #127
132. Also, the SF SPCA has a rather detailed screening process for potential pet owners.
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 05:08 PM by Luminous Animal
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #132
139. As do we.
You have to submit an application, attend a 3-hour class, have a phone screen and a home visit *before* you're sent to the board for approval. Larger, more difficult birds may have extra screening / preparation required.

Adopting a parrot is a serious life decision. Treating it like a toy purchase is simply immoral.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #127
135. Hey, Joe! I've been in your store and you don't keep those cages clean enough
because you can smell them up and down Judah.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #135
140. Most of them don't
Which is why we have cockatiels up for adoption who've had their toes bitten off by rats.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
130. ban sales until the shelters are empty...
then carefully allow sales again :shrug:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SunnySong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #130
141. The shelters import pets from outside the city state and sometimes the country
Edited on Thu Jul-08-10 06:33 PM by SunnySong
to keep numbers up.

There is nothing wrong with this spray and neuter programs have kept stray dogs for example fairly rare except in impoverished or backward areas.

I doubt San Fran produces enough unwanted dogs every year to keep up with demand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
134. Humans, of course, will still be bought and sold like the fungible commodities they are
:crazy:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
backwoodsbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
147. my shepperds next litter
I sell at a loss to anyone in SF.

i'll ship at my loss to anyone in SF
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #147
152. At least you stopped shooting your family's pets.
Good for you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
minavasht Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
150. They tried
banning alcohol a while back.

It was most successful, like every other ban in the human history!
I am pretty sure this ban too will be very effective and everybody will live happily ever after!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-08-10 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
153. Good for SF.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
155. I guess San Francisco must not have any serious problems to work on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-09-10 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #155
157. The Commission of Animal Control & Welfare is specifically empanelled to
deal with problems like this.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC