Impeachment - Yea Or Nay?

No debate offered here from me, just a quick straw poll.

With the facts as known now, would you vote for or against the impeachment of George W. Bush and Dick Cheney?

their numerous offenses, we should just remove the whole 'Impeachment' option from that 'Goddamned Piece Of Paper'...

Sorry

I do not know what would be better at this point for the Democratic party. Impeach B&C or leave the lame ducks in the WH.

You are just a signing statement away from losing
the duck,
that use to walk like,
to talk like
and smell like democracy.

As long as Dead-Eye goes first.

Put Mr. 10% Approval out front and center, in the sunlight, and the Repubs won't be able to win or steal another presidential election for the next generation.

M

getting away with everything.

if you want to be country of laws you have to apply the laws evenly to everyone.
i dont expect any of these monsters to ever be held accountable and I fully expect them to cause more trouble in the future and i fully expect this will further degrade the morality and expectations of most americans.

be taught that the laws apply to them as well.

enough a long time ago. High crimes and misdemeanors should not be encouraged or ignored.

I'm sure this is a scientific survey.

This is like Vietnam...

n/t

Just kidding.

I hope this poll will be recommended and kept kicked so that you get a more than good representative sample polling. (76 vs insignificant number certainly says a lot of the current mood!)

The link can then be sent your Congress Representative and Senator, to show how many of DemocraticUnderground support the Kucinich move!

3 fucking years ago!!! Better late then never right!?

And we're only six years behind schedule!

Signing statements: Bah!

PATRIOT ACT: Bah!

Afghanistan invasion: Reprehensible!

Iraq War Resolution (with unmet constraints): Indefensible!

I don't see the point in impeachment knowing they won't be convicted by the senate, as 2/3s are need to remove. I want guarantees that Bush and Chenny will be removed. Remember, impeachment only just sends the case to the senate for trial to remove the 2 from office. Something which will never happen unfortunately.

A crime is a crime and you have to try people for the crimes they commit.

Just because they will not be convicted because the jury is stacked, does not mean you can ignore a crime or a series of crimes.

Your logic is exactly why many in this world have no faith in the US per se!

What's the point in impeachment without a conviction from the senate? Especially during election time.

Everyone knew they wouldn't be overturned by Southern juries, but the NAACP pursued them nonetheless. Eventually the national awareness level was raised enough to have them overturned. The same strategy must apply to high crimes and misdemeanors.

Just wondering.

Overturning Jim Crow laws is an example of what happened when citizens took a stand against unfair and immoral behavior that was codified by law. If they never challenged Jim Crow, Jim Crow would still be present in the South. If we never challenge this administration and the Republican power structure, they will still be in power when my children's children are adults.

I could make a further case paralleling this administration with Jim Crow directly, particularly around voter disenfranchisement, stealing elections, charging money for voter registration cards (akin to a poll tax), etc., etc. But I think the analogy of challenging Jim Crow in court to challenging this administration with impeachment holds up no matter what crime against humanity they ultimately impeach the chimp for.

before you try, To quote Vince Lombardi (I think) "That's why they play the game".

To ignore the treason and multiple felonies committed by this cabal, and just walk away saying, "that's just the way things are", without even trying to do the right thing, is how we became a fascist state.

It's a totally different ballgame being the politician than being in the cheering section. Think, McFly. I would never put impeachment without knowing there would be a chance of conviction. Otherwise, its a waste of time and money. Yes, I believe Bush/Chenny should be impeached, yes I believe Bush/Chenny should be thrown out of office. But I want guarantees. That the way prosecutors work in trials. You don't try someone unless you know there is a good chance of conviction. Thats not sheepish, not flame baiting, but its real. The evidence is there, and even with split party lines, with democrats and indies voteing repub and repub and indies voting democrat, it still won't add up to 2/3 majority.

You apparently view yourself as realistic and savvy, but you just don't get it. If we waited for guarantees before proposing anything, nothing would ever be proposed.

Except for the aberration we saw from 2004 - 2006, the votes are never there before the proposal is made. No budget, no law, no resolution, nothing is guaranteed before it is proposed. That is why we go through the process, that's why the pork is added, that's how things are done.

You are just doing and believing what you're told, like a good, obedient, dupe.

ETA: At least here you only represent 1/10th so maybe things are not as bad as they seem.

If Bush and Chenny do get impeached, there won't be a conviction. I will wager on that. Don't get idealism and realism confused, which is what you are doing. Not gonna knock ya for that because all perple do that when they are passionate about something. There is no way you can impeach someone without a good possibillity of conviction.

Passing laws/resolutions and impeachment are 2 different things. This is law we are talking about, not legeslation.

More importantly, you seem to have totally missed the point, as well as all of your sense of right and wrong.

These men have, blatantly and without a moments regret, committed crimes unprecedented in this nation and abused their offices. To let these offenses stand unchallenged is an abrogation of our elected officials primary duty, to defend the constitution (you do know they take an oath to this effect, right?). Whether or not a conviction is obtained is irrelevant, if there is no charge made it sets a precedent, and culpability, that effectively dissolves the idea that we have a government of by and for the people.

Can't you see the consequences of this?
:think:

Prosecutors routinely make judgments about prosecuting cases based on whether or not they think they can get a conviction. There's no sense putting together a big, expensive, well-publicized trial if you aren't going to make your case.

It's strictly political. The charges are political...the "trial" is conducted by politicians and the worse-case scenario is boooshie is sent home with an incomplete on his report card. There's zero criminal prosecution here and those who are criminals...like Rove...will slip away as "impeachment fatigue" will set in and the zeal to get one or two people will let dozens with real criminality to slip away.

Without 2/3rds of the Senate, impeachment is a loss for Democrats as the corporate media will first portray it as a power grab by the Democrats...and when there's not the 67 votes to convict in the Senate, then it will be portrayed as Democrats being weak...right before the election. Clinton's impeachment without a conviction didn't stop him from launching the air war in Kosovo...so do you think this will have any affect on boooosh...other than take away time and resources from other on-going investigations that are going after the profiteers and true criminals.

The boooosh problem is a world problem. Sadly beyond the reach of our own highly compromised judicial system. The evidence needs to be gathered and a tribunal in the Hague is the only way for the US to regain faith from the rest of the world.

Impeachment proceedings may not put him out of office but it would certainly put him out of action. That is what is most important now. He must be stopped and there is no reason on earth to think that new assaults against our Constitution and Nation are not being plotted even as I type. So to hell with the outcome, IMPEACH the son of a bitch.

Let us learn from history of the last impeachment when republicans were in control. They almost lost both sides because of the Clinton impeachment they oh so wanted. Impeachment is a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of this. But impeachment without results is more damning than not impeaching at all. Bush won't be put out of action. He will send his lawyers, just like Clinton did. Impeachment only brings him to trial, and there is no chance in hell there would be a 2/3 majority for removal.

Thom, this is realistic and it pisses all of us off for it. I much rather keep the house and senate, Bush will be gone when a dem takes the White House so be patient.

and a torrent of high crimes. do you really think that it was the concept of impeachment that people objected to? don't be ridiculous. people saw the clinton impeachment for what it was- an attempted coup.
people will finally see what we see- the laundry list of crimes, the thievery and murder, the corruption, and the perjury from top to bottom of this administration.
i do not agree that it would fail. even the sheeple will be on the band wagon when they realize the length and depth of the evil. and if it did fail, because idiot thugs refused to do justice, the republican party will be dead for at least a generation.
these criminals CAN NOT BE ALLOWED TO SLINK OFF THE STAGE.

If you are thinking like a politician, I doubt you would say that. And all major polls indicates no impeachment. And almost all politicians listen to the polls. And even if he is impeached, the odds are off the chart against conviction. Would you impeach someone knowing there is no chance of a conviction?

there will be a conviction, because the people will demand it. not that i think that the whole truth, as we here know it, will necessarily come out. but impeachment hearings are the only chance that anything like that will happen. if these criminals are allowed to slink off in '08, the rest of that iceberg will sink our democracy. or should i say, what is left of it.
impeachment of at least 20 administration officials, down to the federal judges and us attorneys from phony law schools, might, repeat, might was the stain from our flag.
what is really needed, tho, is war crimes trials in the hague. then i will be proud to ba an american again.

Given the public feeling toward Bush/Cheney right now ans the fact that the senators would have to explain their vote to their constituents to be re-elected, I'm not so sure the 2/3 majority couldn't be found.

nt

The Senate has already voted 90-9 in support of the McCain Anti-Torture Amendment (sadly negated, via "rule by signing statement").

But gaining conviction is virtually irrelevant. If charges are warranted (and they are) they must be lodged. Failure to do so is complicity with and approval of the unlawful acts. In this case, that means torture and war crimes. Without impeachment we formally become (remain) a War Criminal Nation.

It really is just that simple. We (the U.S.) don't get to rewrite those rules. And failure by gov't officials (the Dem majority in Congress) to report and ACT to stop ongoing war crimes is a war crime in itself.

Beyond that, simple morality/decency demand that you do the right thing without regard to personal/political gain or cost.

And even by a craven political/electoral yardstick, the DC Dems ongoing failure to even stand and object formally (actually DO something), solidifies the perception of Dems as the party of weakness, fecklessness, and dithering. They will remain a non-alternative to meet the fears that will continue to be mongerred full tilt by the neofascists.

Only Impeachment ... is a substantive act.

The rest is just (masturbatory) rationalization for inaction.

Yes, even "Cut the Funding II -- The Sequel." (We've watched this movie before.)

It IS our positive agenda. Literally a panacea for the Dem Party.

It is also our ONLY moral, patriotic option.

--

Still can't get the conviction.

...that conviction is irrelevant.

So start demanding impeachment.

Here's a RoadMap to get you started.

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Do you want Bush and Chenny removed from office?

I'd have to say that I would want them to resign tommorrow.

Is that "removed" or not?

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And we both know that ain't gonna happen anyway. When I meant by removed was after impeachment, it goes to Senate for trial. Both side's give their case, then the senate votes on a verdict to remove them from office which takes a 2/3 majority or 67 Senators (hopefully you know that). A lot of people here, and probably most (not all, so don't flame me) of the 200 people who voted yes in this poll are confused due to the fact that impeachment is removal from office. That's not how it goes. So I ask everyone who voted yes, do you want them impeached, or do you want them removed?

I see now. But you're not really "asking" anyone anything, are you? Since you already "know" what's "gonna happen" and "how it goes," you're really just trying to tell everyone that. Isn't that right?

But since you are one of the few who are not "confused," let me ask you something. What do these 200 people (sorry most of them) think happened with President Clinton -- do they think he was not impeached or do the think he was removed?

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Clinton was impeached, and the republicans paid for it. Shortening their house majority from a +35 to a +13. Not a bad comeback from the Dems. Its called learning from history. All politics.

Comparing with Clinton is Oxymoronic.

(Note: And BTW, it's exactly what the Euphemedia is training people to think/fear. So it is not my intent to single you out for this widely-held misconception. In fact, this is a cut and paste. Including this note.)

It's not just apples and oranges, the circumstances are diametrically opposite.

Clinton was a popular, twice-elected president -- impeached for less-than-trivial reasons -- by a party in danger of being seen as extremists (since having been proven).

Bushcheney is an unpopular, never-elected, never-legitimate regime -- being impeached for torture/war crimes, spying on Americans, and/or terrorizing the nation into war -- by a party that might be in danger of being seen as conscious or vertebrate (currently being disproven).

Realistically, we can expect "Reverse Clinton" results. Perhaps even on conviction/removal.

And even if that were not the historical, political reality -- and standing to object might possibly cost our side something -- it is still treason to put personal and/or party advantage over the good of the nation by remaining silently complicit with war crimes.

Would you like to go through any of the other rationalizations for inaction?

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Hold the trial. The people need to see Bushco's crimes held up for all to see. People who think that the Senate will never vote to impeach are missing the point- right now, the evidence is there but hasn't been broadcast and put in the public's face. We at DU and elsewhere have seen the crimes, but average Joe and Jane haven't. Hit W and Crashcart with the massive pile of evidence, week after week of it, outrage after outrage, and I suspect many of those who are against impeachment would change their minds. If not they will lose their jobs. It is critical for the future of this country that we do this.

What Congress hasn't faced up to is that none of them are going to leave without being forced out. I am convinced Rumsfeld left because he wanted to, not because W wanted him to leave. Gonzo ain't leaving until he is impeached. They are planning on the opposition being too weak to do anything "drastic". And so far, they have been right.

what some folks may not yet realize is that they are dwarfed by the arguments FOR impeachment . . .

is like preaching to the choir- the outcome is pretty obvious.

I've mentioned once or twice that I believe Skinner should create an OFFICIAL poll of the day, like all the news sites do, and position it on the front page where unregistered readers would be likely to see it. Still not scientific, but once established it would draw outsiders in, and with what we know about freep techniques, he could at least keep it honest.

It's an obvious thing to do, and I have no idea why there seems to be no interest in establishing it.

Not to say we're hurting from a lack of participation in our forums, of course.

Okay, time for a group hug

No, not you

his ass, and Cheney's, should have been impeached.

IMPEACH NOW! BOTH OF THEM!

If we can't nail the bastard on the Iraq War, can we at least nail him on voter fraud? Or Katrina? Or 9/11? Or any of the numerous crimes that have happened since he took office?

One more category urgently needed:

I said no. I'm one of those eeeevil compromisers. It think the effort would hurt us more as a party and get more people killed in Iraq in the long run.

I happen to think impeachment is necessary but this is a topic on which reasonable people may well disagree.

:toast:

When I called for this thread to be recommended, I was the only one, and now there are 17.

There were 92 calling for impeachment and now there are 200!

So when Dennis Kucinich called for impeachment, there was 1, now there are 4.

I fail to understand how some of you do not see the crimes committed by your Administration.

The rest of the world sees it.

Watching your media as FOX or CBS, maybe you cannot see what is happening, the crimes being committed, and the majority of them now are being directed at you as Americans.

Someone called another in this forum "a sheep". :-)

That is how we in different parts of the world see Americans. We hear many great American voices as Mike Malloy, Peter Werbe, Peter B. Collins, Guy James, Stephanie Miller, Thom Hartmann, Ray Taliferro, Bernie Ward, Randi Rhodes, Mike Webb, Rachel Maddow, Sam Seder, Ed Schuz, Tony Trupiano, Mark Levine, and many others, saying exactly what we know, so it is not that you in America are denied the sources that we have access to in the rest of the world.

Remember, Bush was "elected" twice and yet the people in the US stood up as in Georgia, etc. What a wonderful job John Conyers Jr. did, but the "establishment" sidelined him!

How many of you watched the Iraq War Tribunal, or at least the final session in Turkey? It was freely available to watch on the Internet!

So we in the world who have stood against this war from before it started, have the right to condemn most Americans for the situation of chaos, murder and destruction, that prevails now, as most of Americans seem to be happier watching Idols and other things far from reality.

Please keep recommending and keeping this thread kicked so that you can get as many of the 100000 DemocraticUndergrounders to restore our faith in the American people.

/sarc

What kind of American wouldn't be? Oh yeah, the kind of American that serves in Congress.

The American people need to see the level of depravity that has been characteristic of this administration from day one. Even before day one.

The media won't let the truth out. It is the responsibility of our elected offials to do it. Not only that but once the truth is out a 2/3 majority won't be out of the question.

The media is owned lock, stock and barrel by the corporate masters that run both parties. The very few that actually are calling the acts of this administration what they are are considered "fringe" or "whacky" even by members of "our" party. If the greater population actually understood what was going on Chimp would have never been re-elected, cheating or not. But they don't. So many people are skewed by the propagandists on both the far right radio stations and the corporate (allegedly liberal) media that they never really have a chance to confront the truth.

IMPEACH!

Are you guys that seriously retarded? Going by some of your logic, then tomorrow magical fairies will pop out of my butt and clean up global warming, fix the Iraq mess, and make us all filthy rich. BECAUSE WE'RE ALL LIVING IN FASTASYLAND.

I will spell it out for you...

I-M-P-E-A-C-H-M-E-N-T W-I-L-L N-O-T H-A-P-P-E-N. P-E-R-I-O-D.

If the military budget can't get passed with a veto-proof margin, how the hell do you expect impeachment and conviction to ever succeed?

A few of us live in reality. Many of us, it seems, live in fantasyland.

Should and will are not the same sweety.

Thankfully, you don't. And, unless you are a psychic in your version of reality, which we don't believe exist in mine, being so sure about something no one can predict before the fact is more of a sign of retardation than having the integrity and courage to do what is supposed to be done to protect our Constitution, despite blowhard assholes screaming that we can't succeed.