Profiteering from heat waves? Fast-food places sometimes refuse WATER to customers who ask for it,

requiring instead that they buy highly marked-up soft drinks or even more exorbitantly-priced bottled water.

Health officials in this month of record-high temperatures across the country advise people who've been outside to drink plenty of liquids to avoid heat prostration and heatstroke.

(1) Are some fast-food restaurants profiteering from the hot weather?
(2) Should restaurants be required to serve water on demand to food customers?
(3) Does the retail food code in your jurisdiction mandate that they do so?

Has this ever happened to you? It happened to me today, until I told a Maconald's manager he was trying to profiteer from the hot weather and could get negative publicity for his establishment. Surprisingly, my google search turned up only one on-point article, more than a year old.

WHAT'S YOUR OPINION?

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From http://www.allbusiness.com/government/government-bodies-offices-regional/12530320-1.html :

'Restaurant says no to water cups for teen customers By Rachel Raskin-Zrihen, Times-Herald, Vallejo, Calif.

Publication: Times-Herald, Vallejo (California) Date: Wednesday, June 24 2009

Jun. 24--Laverne Casey of Vallejo said she was shocked when she took her family to the McDonald's restaurant on Springs Road and was refused a glass of water. ... "I took my children there, and ordered food, and we didn't want soda or anything, so I asked for water and they didn't want to serve it," Casey said. Bottled water is available for sale at the store, but signs are posted advising customers that water cups are not available.

Restaurants are not required by law to serve water, said spokespeople for the state Department of Alcoholic and Beverage Control and the Solano County Department of Health/Resource Management. "There is no law. It's a courtesy," Solano County's Pat Rodruiguez said. "There's nothing in the California retail food code dealing with the issue."

The policy is not a McDonald's corporate decision but one made by the owners of this particular Vallejo location, manager Manuel "Alex" Mejia said. Store officials decided several years ago to discontinue providing cups of water to unaccompanied teens, though others can get water on request, Mejia said. It's a judgment call, he said. "Sometimes groups of teens come in, and they don't necessarily behave by the rules, and they dump the water and fill the cup up with free soda," Mejia said.

Nevertheless, Casey said the policy is basically heartless. And there's a principle involved, she said. ...'

when nobody's looking. If there are two other customers in the place that should be enough to score emergency hydration after you've taken your food and sat down. Would I pull that on a cool day? No. But if I'm half dehydrated in summer heat then screw 'em.

Greedy effing pigs.

I'd suddenly have to take two buses and, at the transfer point, that I'd be hungry and thirsty in front of a MacDonald's,

I'm not saying just walk in and steal from the fountain. But if it's hot as hell, you're hungry and thirsty, and you spend money at one of these places then there should be no argument whatsoever against giving someone water if they don't want soda, and they shouldn't have to buy a plastic bottle of it for that $1.25 either.

The argument is that if you want something from them you should expect to pay them for it, water isn't included in the food price. When you are making such a big deal about stealing their water instead of paying $1.25 it doesn't make them look like the greedy ones.

n/t

Your admitted plan is to steal from them with concealed cups because you can't handle paying $1.25. That sounds like the greediest thing I have heard in a long time.

I have not advocated stealing merchandise from a fast food eatery simply because it's fun to "chisel them out of $1.25". I have not advocated going into these places and spending nothing, but then trying to sneak soda or water from the drink fountain just to "get one over on the man".

What I am saying is that if I go into one of these places as a paying customer, and if I'm both hungry and thirsty on a very hot day, and if after spending several dollars on food I'm left without enough money to afford a drink, and finally if after politely requesting a small cup of ice water I am told no, then said establishment will not be getting my business ever again. And if I have no ability to take my business elsewhere right then and there then you bet your ass I'm going to go ahead and get something from the fucking fountain rather than stay dehydrated. At that point, if they call the fucking Grand Theft Soda Police on me, I'm just going to laugh at them on my way out the door.

If that's still "chiseling the place out of $1.25" then congratulations on your moral superiority. You win, I lose; and frankly, I couldn't give a flying fuck at this point. I'm done responding to you now. I'm sure you have better things to do than arguing with lowly thieves like me, anyway. :eyes:

Otherwise you are absolutely just chiseling them out of the $1.25 they want for the products and services they are providing you.

Nobody is going to arrest you but it shows a belief that you only need to obey the law when it is convenient.

seriously, water is damn near free to begin with, what excuse do these companies have to charge this much?

Anyone who takes it without paying is the fucking thief.

Why do you expect other people to do something for you when you are unwilling to give them modest compensation($1.25)?

Gods! It never ceases to amaze me what fuckery people will spew and then try to call themselves progressives.

Swine have more consideration for people than you do.

When has a swine ever given you or anyone else free water?

But if the meal doesn't include a drink why should you expect one for free?

Obviously if you pay for it then it isn't stealing it is a purchase.

The view being expressed is if they don't give you free water then just take it.

a modest compensation of 1.25 for bringing the water to their restaurant.

I am not sure but you might be under the mistaken assumption that the water in the lines belongs to McD's.

No, I'm not in favor of denying anyone a drink but you seem to think water is piped to restaurants for free. It isn't.

And of course, any city garbage or sewer charges. And property taxes, sales taxes and so forth.

There may be more than one person laboring under a mistaken assumption here....

Um that wouldn't be a mistaken assumption, it would be an accurate assumption.

once water flows past the meter is has been purchased by the owner of the meter.

will give water they damn sure can fill those cups with water instead.

And it is fucking greedy to charge a buck twenty five for something they damn well can dispense for free. The soda syrup actually costs money. What's the water costing them? Nothing they have to pay a water bill anyway to pay for the sinks, toilets, and dishwashers it's already considered in their expenses.

Some people never fail to take the side of big business every time there's a chance to do so.

It is fucking greedy to complain about having to pay pocket change for a valuable product and service.

Every time we went out to eat as a family, water was served (free of charge) as soon as you sat down at the table. Then some people pressured the restaurants to stop the practice as we started having our droughts.

Amusement Parks are the worst. You are the mercy of the park. I drink water fountain water, the wife and kids need cold bottle water for some reason. Bottle of water 3 to 4 bucks.

water for restaurants to pour a glass for every guest without asking whether the guest wants water. But wouldn't it be hard for restaurant managers to argue they're being environmentalists for REFUSING water to customers who come in our of 100 degree heat and ASK for it?

IMO, retail food codes should require that clean free drinking water be served to every food customer who ASKS for water.

water to a customer would not see one red cent in business from me from that point until the policy was rescinded.

until somebody ends up in the ER or dead, and there is a lawsuit.

And yes, they are profeteering.

entrepreneurs responding to a market opportunity?

homeless people than profiteering.

without profiteering from legitimate customers?

Besides, aren't the homeless drawn more to unlocked restrooms than to cups of water?

IMO the needs of the homeless for access to public facilities are mainly a separate problem from the extraordinary business GREED this thread is highlighting.

1. Yes, probably but that's pretty smart given the season. Businesses are a for-profit thing. Most fast-food places have fountain drinks these days and almost all fountain drink dispensing machines have a water tap. I bring a small, re-usable plastic drinking bottle pretty much whevere I go. Problem solved.

2. No, but if they're smart, they do. That being said, drink sales are probably some of if not the highest profit margin items they sell. When I was working in restaurants, a box of Coca-Cola syrup sold via our supplier was about 35-37$/bag and C-O2 was also very cheap. I don't remember the exact numbers but a 20 oz cup of soda cost the merchant something like 12 cents. Alcohol sales are the only bigger profit margin and that's debatable once you get into things like licensing and some of the more shady stuff involved in liqour sales.

3. Nope.

I generally agree it's bad for business for a merchant to refuse water. Water cups (usually 4 to 8 oz cups) are cheap. Tap water is (nearly) free. That being said, I understand why some wouldn't. They want to push sales of their most profitable items. This shit is the REASON "combo" style meals are so popular.

EDIT to add: Again, from a fast food restuarant point of view, there's often a worry that people will take a water cup and fill it with soda from the fountain. They have almost no ability to control the cup once it goes over the counter.

seizing a market opportunity? And preventing possible theft of soft drinks by their untrustworthy customers?

Like I said - and as a person who worked in food service for years as a manager/GM - it's a poor business move to alienate customers. Keep in mind, especially when dealing with fast food, that these are franchises (usually) and that anyone with the cash can buy one whether they know dick-all about the industry or not. There's a reason 70% of resturants fail....because people without a clue about how to run them open them. Even a little 30-seat mom and pop diner that is well run can make oodles of money, but they almost never do.

I (briefly) worked as a manager for such a place. Pizza joint, poorly run, the owner was a total mieser who put one-time profit before return customers. The fact that he had an incredible location and good product kept him afloat for a few years but he ulitmately failed. Why...because he was an asshole and did just this sort of thing (refuse water, etc.)

Now, as an owner you do have some right to defend yourself from unscrupulous customers (and there are some, please believe) who are trying to get over. And as manager or owner you have to understand profit margins and where they are and for better or worse, pushing beverages is a must. Do you do it to the point of refusing tap water? I personally think that's a bad idea.

But I'm pretty sure the cups cost more than either the soda or the water. Most often, when customers eat in-store, they can refill their drinks from the fountain at will - be it water or soda. My guess is the individual store is selectively enforcing whatever policy they have in order to manage "trouble-making teens". The should have a firm policy that customers can only refill store-bought cups.

Depends on the quality of cups you're getting, whether you're part of a chain-distribution system, etc. I suspect that in the long run resturants are going to have to put the fountain machines back "behind the counter." Its nice and convinient when customers can get their own refills but you basically have an expensive piece of machinery open tot he public.

Agree with your assessment though and it's often the case that fast food joints in areas with high teenager traffic seem to have more draconian policies about that sort of thing.

we did have "courtesy cups" which were free, but quite small, so if the customer wanted water in a regular cup, we had to charge for the cup (a dime, IIRC).

dg

To cover the cost of the cup.

By a VERY high margin.


Paper and styrofoam cups can add up pretty quickly.

Not excusing fast food restaurants. Just saying. A cup of faucet water is still costing the business for the cup.

How dare a business expect to make a profit on the items they sell.:sarcasm:

You have money, pay them for what you want instead of complaining that it is not free.

It's fucking fast food. What are you going to start complaining that they don't have mouth wash and an attendant in the bathroom?

water, perhaps the most basic necessity of life to a bathroom attendant? Are you for real? :wtf:

I don't want.

See post #10 above for Needlecast's estimate of minimum 900 percent markups on soft drinks.

Charge for the cup, sure, but that's what, a few cents, maybe a dime, or the more expensive quarter, but a dollar or more? I don't see that.

I know this may be a shocking concept to you, but unless you happen to have a wellspring on your property it takes work to get water to a business and they pay for that service. It is not free. Air is free, most other things cost money.

public water utility. Water is extremely cheap, so much so its still common in some areas, such as my own, to get a cup of it for free damn near anywhere. How much do you honestly think it costs a company to provide someone a cup of water?

As well as supplies and food that have to be purchased.

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding about how a business should set their prices. See, the way it's supposed to work is that you charge the maximum the market will bear for your goods while simultaneously keeping the amount you pay for acquiring those goods to the absolute minimum. Some items are marked up more than other because they can be. The so-called "excess" profit being made on those items goes to subsidize the goods that don't provide as high a return. If in fact a business is overcharging for a good compared to others in the community they will soon see that they aren't selling said product and will either adjust their price accordingly or lose business on that item.

Anyone can walk in and help themself to a cup of water.

Basically zero overhead and low maintinance and keeps people happy.

the exact moment the last note was played, resulting in massive heat exhaustion and eventually rioting until the water was returned.

NONE of the media gave a shit at the time.

water is $1.25.

And have found very few places that refuse to give a free cup for ice water. Any place that refuses to give me water when I buy a meal, will not get my business again, and I make that known to the manager.

Many of those that do offer free water only give a very small cup, 6 oz or so. I'm perfectly fine with that, I see no reason for a huge cup to drink water from, only to end up in the trash.

And a very few places have signs posted saying "For health reason you cannot bring your own cup." Now, I think this last part is crap since almost every convenience store out there sells insulated cups / mugs for coffee and soft drinks. And they sell food for consumption. I think those that post this type of sign are trying to protect their profits.

I do remember correctly during a drought / water shortage years ago, some restaurants had signs posted stating "Ice water on request only". But we're not having that right now.

Getting water is the least of your problems,considering what that is in the solid food.

Seems like it would make better business sense to hire a security guard than to offend all the customers.

as it has negligible cost but the cups are something that the restaurant has to pay for and they have the right to charge for those.

They sell a product, in hot weather and cold weather the same.

If people don't like it, they should go to another restaurant.

For the same reason they don't give away water in hot weather - they are a business and coffee and water are products that they sell. I've not seen any other business that sells water give it away including Costco.

If you really insist on a free drink of water you might want to hit up the bathroom sink. I normally pack a small cooler of water in extremely hot weather. Otherwise, you need to pay for what you consume.

If the restaurants do not like this they don't have to have water provided to their establishments. They are free to hire private companies to deliver it to them in tanks.

the local government for it?

if water is such a commodity, why isn't it illegal to collect it for free from other sources(rain, condensation)? Granted, in some places in the world, they tried that, it didn't work.

Your idea that once the water has arrived at a business it magically becomes free is...bizarre.

and the business then charges dollars for a cup or bottle. Its called price gouging.

You seem to assume that because it's a business it must be giving bad value in general. But while many items have a high margin (eg soda or bottled water) they offset the loss on other goods and services.

I worked in fast food many years ago. It costs about $2000/day just to have the doors open and fresh food in stock before a single thing is cooked. A fast food restaurant's profit margin is typically 10 - 15%...not exactly epic profiteering.

Like I said, I'm not against free water for customers on a hot day. It can even be good advertising. But it does impose a cost on the business. You seem to think running a business is all gravy.

Seriously, is anyone going to make any more asinine comparisons?

It's not that friggin' complicated. :shrug:

with ice-water from a flat-bottomed cup.

sodas and even more exorbitantly-priced bottled water.

I've yet to see one that didn't dispense water, usually from the fruit punch or lemonade spigot.

The point is the OP wanted to be able to sit at his table and drink an ice-cold beverage from a flat-bottom cup while he enjoyed his burger. If that's the case, then buy a drink.

As I understand it, consumer sovereignty is the concept that ultimately consumers rule the market through their decisions about what goods/services to buy. I can see that this influences price, since if consumers feel a particular good is overpriced they won't buy and the price will eventually come down. I'm not seeing what this has to do with handing out stuff for free though.

If you are dying of thirst, go in the bathroom and get a drink from the sink.
If you want to sit at the table with a big mac then order a drink or bring a cold insulated cup from home with water in it.
Or don't get fast food!
so many choices.

sovereignty' becomes under big greedy anti-ethical corporate oligopoly? Is THAT the new 'magic of the marketplace', the characterization of our economy Ronald Reagan often used to invoke?

The extreme Republicanist corporate kowtowing in many posts in this thread has surprised me. What kind of sheeple simply accept the escalating corporate greed that has taken over even convenient access to the WATER we need to survive?

What's next? $5 tokens for the restrooms, with optional $1 sheets of bathroom tissue?

then don't go to the restaurant. That is absolute individual sovereignty.

and no. 5$ tokens and $1 sheets of bathroom tissue are not next, they are just hyperbole.

and more hyperbole..."...even convenient access to the WATER we need to survive?"
the water you want to drink from a flat bottomed cup when you munch on your big mac is not water you need to survive,
its water you want for convenience. Pay for the convenience or bring your own cup or bottle of water.
If you need water to survive, they will not keep it from you and it is hyperbole to imply that they would, plus there is always the faucet in the bathroom.
you want convenience? Pay for it.

to people, a law FFS.
:kick: & R

provision of drinking water to food customers upon request.

Do you have a link?

the first time and I can't seem to access their archives any longer.
:shrug:

I used to do fast food but one particular incident persuaded me to stop. I was in a big-name fast food establishment. I forgot what I had ordered, but remember I had ordered fries on the side. I really didn't like to eat fries with my fingers because of the grease and salt, so I asked for a small plate. I was given one. Then I asked for a fork since I liked to use a lot of ketchup and hat getting it on my fingers, but the clerk looked at me and then the plate he'd just given me and said "no."

I suppose he was thinking I was going to slip through their salad bar and steal some of that.

Fuck 'em and their "we're a restaurant" mentality! I stopped going to such places after that.

The cups are how restaurant chains do their inventory, and they actually may cost more than the subsidized high fructose corn poison soft drink syrup drinks that go in them. Which is why most chain restaurants have free refills now. Once you have bought the cup, they don't care how many times you fill it.

If they gave away the cups, it would throw off their inventory, and many of these businesses schedule their employee hours (via computer) by the amount of product they sell at any given hour or given day, so it would affect their entire business model.

Again, not justifying this obviously flawed system - just explaining the "how" and "why" of it. Another lesson in the joys of corporatism.

:sarcasm:

I never get sodas- always water. I've never even gotten a cross look. Now, at a convenience store they may charge $.50 for a cup of ice or something.... Also, when we're under water restrictions, you have to ask for water at restaurants- they don't automatically bring you a glass.

ETA: It so damn hot here in the summer, no one would ever deny you water. Maybe it's a TX thing.