Neighbor: "I hate Bush, but we still should have dropped the H-bomb on Iraq"!!

Okay, so I got into it with a 70-something neighbor the other night. I know him as a nice guy, very sweet. But suddenly as the (non-political) conversation is winding down he comes out with, "I think the parents of soldiers who've been killed in Iraq would be angry if we got out of there without finishing the job. I know I sure would be."

This completely threw me. I said, "We have no business being there. People are dying for a lie."

"We should have done it right from the beginning and just dropped an H-bomb," he said, as if I hadn't spoken.

Now I'm livid. "For WHAT? What did the Iraqis do to us?"

He doesn't answer, just keeps going on about how the parents of dead soldiers would be angry if we don't "finish the job". I tried to ask what he meant, to no avail. Then he says, "It's just my opinion, but that's the mistake we made in Vietnam. If we'd stayed we would have won."

OMG, I'm thinking, I had NO idea this sweet old guy was a Repug. But out loud I laughed and said, "We NEVER would have won Vietnam, just like we're NEVER going to win Iraq."

"Just my opinion," he says. "We should make a parking lot of them."

So I walk up to him and say, "Opinions are fine. But the facts are Bush LIED us into Iraq, we have no business being there, the Iraqis did nothing to us, and the sooner we get out the less American parents will be grieving dead sons and daughters. Those are the FACTS."

"Oh, I hate Bush," he says, like he's suddenly contrite. "The man's an idiot."

I don't think he heard half of what I said. But that's a usual conversation with him; he doesn't really listen, he's too busy thinking about what he wants to say.

Know what I wish I'd said to him? That he possesses the exact same mentality as the terrorists who don't give a damn who they kill because in their eyes we're all "guilty". I've decided that when I see him again, I will say that. What a very disturbing perspective he has, "drop an H-bomb on them", it truly is as bad as terrorist thinking and has bothered me ever since.

How many Americans think that way, and do they understand it's the same way terrorists think?

I work part-time at Wally-World (yeah, I know, but it was my high-school job and I've made good friends there) and they are frustrated at the lack of a quick victory that they just want to nuke the place. That's why I don't really care if this war breaks this country, because for all the people who supported the war in the first place, and now this, they richly deserve it.

...not two weeks ago on DN! Forgive me, I can't remember now which one of them said it, but the basic premise was, "Yes, of course we could have won Vietnam if we'd been willing to drop a nuke on them. Same with Iraq and Iran and anyone else we don't agree with. But what price victory?"

DESTROY THEM is lazy, lawless sentiment by those who don't like to think. Because if they did think, they'd realize very quickly that sentiment by the terrorists is exactly what riled Americans about 9-11. We object to being "punished" en masse by self-righteous thugs; why should it be any different for other people?

He'll change his mind about turning Iraq into a parking lot.

...giving him my copy of "Baghdad Burning", by the Iraqi blogger Riverbend. I may just do that.

but they are just too fucking lazy to apply any critical thinking. They lash out like a bunch of unsocialized two year olds.

Sometimes I think the evolutionary experiment that is mankind is about to wind down. We seem to be polarized into two camps and it's anybody's guess which side will prevail.

Just this morning, reading news, I was musing that IF there is such a thing as the rapture, it has already happened, cuz the shit that's goin down sure sounds like what the preachers predicted. Makes me chuckle that all the poor fundies are still here in the madness.

Makes me think of Heinlein's book Job

This administration has brought out the absolute worst in Americans. I can't remember a time when such thinking was anything but marginalized...but BushCo has condoned and commended it right into the mainstream. The insane are in charge of the madhouse.

And no they are too shallow to realize that is thinking just like the terrorist.

Ask your neighbor what the job is that our soldiers are there to finish? It is yet unclear what the real mission in Iraq was.
WMD's? No!
Democracy? Yeah, right!
Freeing people from a tyrant? Saddam is dead.

What are we trying to do in Iraq? Oil is the only thing I can see in the sights of bu$h and Cheney

I doubt he could define victory any better than Bush**. Maybe to them, victory does mean the total destruction of Iraq and its people. But I don't see what benefit we gain from that. I see only bad coming from it. People in the middle east are just as willing to fight against injustice as we are, and we'll be paying for this for decades to come.

critically, hatred and intolerance seems to be their mantra.

I think this is just one of those flip phrases that people say who don't know much about politics. I don't think they actually think through the reality of it.

But these are the same people who'll go to the polls and vote for a hawk because they think we need more of the same only tougher!

I had a friend who said the same thing.

I pointed out to him that exterminating a country wasn't exactly a good way to help them.

Probably also a good idea to point out that destroying a quarter of the world's oil supply would cause the industrialized world to grind to a halt leading to mass starvation and anarchy.

Which is probably why it's taking this country so long to realize what a bonehead Bush** is, and why there's general confusion about what to do about Iraq at this stage. Most people, in my experience, don't devote a lot of energy to considering how their actions -- and by extension, the actions of our country -- impact others and can come back to haunt them/us. They react. I think it's possible to awaken them to the repercussions of that, but it has to be done carefully.

I'm really thinking about loaning him "Baghdad Burning" now, maybe leaving it on his doorstep with a little note apologizing if I came down hard the other night but I hope he'll read it to try and understand the other side of this war.

He's 70, and probably missed out much of on what we know about the effects. He probably doesn't know one big bomb from another. He recalls it vaguely as the weapon that "won" WW2 and "saved" US lives in a non-existent invasion. He thinks it destroys bad things.

These people never visualise the implications of the dumb ideas they throw out. Tell him about the indiscrimate wasting of cities; the women & children with charred flesh dropping off as they pray for help that isn't coming because the hospital and all the doctors were vaporized; the contamination of organs and water and food so that even the surviving civilians face a slow death.

If he replies that they deserve it anyway... well, at least you know what you're up against.

Mostly because I like him, and never imagined these kind of thoughts could be running around in his head. I mean, he really is the definition of sweet. He'd do anything for me, always looks out for me when my husband goes away, really great with his grandkids, etc. That's why this shocked me so badly. I guess I'm just posting here to figure out a plan of attack. If he were a stranger I'd let it go, but I want to effect change in him.

This is both a good thing and a bad thing. Eesh. :crazy:

In answer to your question, a LOT of Americans think like terrorists, and worse--they even think torture is OK. And they have no idea how like the 'fanatical enemy' they really are.

...when I get through with him! Most of my neighbors are NOT like this. So I think I'll have to make him my special project.

It appears to me he feels something is wrong but just doesn't exactly know why. I worry more about the corporate media still keeping reality cloudy for so many and the lack of politicians willing to spell it out.

I can't change the corporate media. But if I can inform and change one person, I will.

it is a common view among many insular and isolated Americans, who believe they live OUTSIDE of history and those actions will never afect them

Oh and it has NOTHING to do with party afficilaition either.. though you will find them more often among repugs I have heard this from otherwise progresives who are hawks in foreign affairs

A couple of years ago I had a political conversation with him and he was ranting about Bush** as hard as me. But it appears he's uninformed to the point of letting his fear dictate his ideas about national defense. This is the precise reason we have to deal with front-runner Dem candidates who unabashedly saber-rattle about Iran.

Before you lecture him, you should listen to him. He's hurt; it's painful to think about 3200 Americans dead for no reason. It's painful to think of 60-100,000 Iraqis dead for no reason. The man needs to vent his anger and my best suggestion is that you help him see who is the true villain in this peice. Maybe start by telling him how much it bothers you to think of all those people dying over a lie, too.

Does HE have "skin in the game?" At least a MILLION Iraqis are DEAD as a direct result of the current invasion and occupation. Millions more are displaced, MILLIONS MORE are wounded, sick, no access to clean air, water and food, being slowly poisoned by depleted uranium, HE'S HURT??? HOW?

But this seems to be a guy grappling with the problems our country has created in the world. It's called a "teachable moment" in the education racket. And yes, waking up to the reality that war you've supported has been unnecessary is a very real kind of pain. I don't see how your scorn for this man solves diddly squat. But I can see how educating him with love can bring his vote and his voice over to the side of the angels. I happen to believe that all Americans should feel like they have "skin in the game." We cannot undo the damage our country has done. We can only work to heal what we can, where we can.

My compassion isn't finite. Obviously the Iraqis have suffered immeasurably more than anyone in this country--families of killed and wounded vets included. They deserve far more sympathy. But this older gentleman is here and there's a DUer in a position to do some right in the world by approaching him civilly. I suppose giving the guy a vicious tongue lashing for his ignorance could make someone feel better. But I'm pretty sure it wouldn't solve anything.
.

I don't want to lecture him. I'd like to think of something to say or do (like give him a book to read, maybe Baghdad Burning) to start him thinking differently, to give him an alternative and valid perspective to work from. Not only because I find his current thought process callous, but because it will matter in the next election.

I find the only way to make headway is to ask a lot of questions.

Some people think things through by talking. Trying not to argue or respond, but ask thoughful questions, trying not to put a judgemental spin on them hard as that is, may help him get there and stay there...

What is in our national interest?

What would bring peace to that region, really?

What about the Iranian Shia?

What happens if Pakistan goes fundy?

Turkey, same?

How many children would be ok in your view?

We all want a solution, not sure how to get there, what would victory there look like?

Good luck, aloha.

You know, I'm glad I haven't seen him since because I would have done it all wrong, comparing his thinking to that of a terrorist. I mean, hearing that would make me very defensive so why should it work any different on him?

As often is the case I learn something from coming here and hearing from fellow DUers. Thanks so much for the advice! :hi:

for voting for the bastard because he promised tax cuts.

Of course there's no way to be sure (he might only have been saying that for my benefit) but I'll work from that assumption. I don't want to make myself angrier!

It seems to be American chauvinism is behind his sentiments.

contaminate the oil no way...

Besides the completely unnecessary death of millions of innocent people, it shows he STILL doesn't get why we're really there!

are teaching their kids to kill Americans. He saw it on Glen Beck (natch), so it must be true.

"We should just nuke them."

So, you want to bomb people who are angry that we invaded a county under false pretenses, killed over half a million Iraqis, imprisoned people indefintely without charging them with a crime, and let Iraq fall into complete chaos just so we could take their oil. Is that right?

And you wonder why they want to kill us?

Say your neighbor does something that ticks you off. Many would feel the need for revenge. So you do something back, and they do something worse, and so on. What's the ultimate point? Miserable people making each other more and more miserable, and nothing is ever resolved.

I think terrorists need to be dealt with. I just don't think the only option is military force. Radicals don't decide to kill others for no reason -- there's ALWAYS a catalyst behind it, it's just a matter of figuring out what it is and limiting it in future. This is where our country goes wrong every time. We think we should be able to do what the hell we want anywhere in the world; people need to sit and think how they'd feel if their neighbors adopted that attitude on THEIR property.

Maybe the Japanese and Germans did not start up again, but it was probably more complex than that.

now hate him. They are still unthinking and greedy.

I'm not so sure about greedy. Certainly some are. Others just don't think things through. They adopt the popular attitude. Invisible beings help us if dropping nukes is the popular attitude.

:shrug:


"How many Americans think that way, and do they understand it's the same way terrorists think?"

I was relaying a story for input, not trying to win a Pulitzer.

but you were so busy looking for a reason to be offended, you missed it completely.

:thumbsdown:



It sounds like your neighbor isn't "thinking" or "rationalizing" but parroting talking points he's heard somewhere.

Now you can move on with the satisfaction of correcting me twice. :eyes:

I went ahead and said what the point was.... giving you the benefit of the doubt that this bizarre attitude was not a permanent condition.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

insist on being insulted based on your own misunderstanding, even when someone gives you the benefit of the doubt and spells it out, it is definitely your problem. I had no idea that :shrug: would be so threatening rather than help you get that maybe the guy is not. Thinking.

:think:

I take minor offense at the way you phrase something, which can happen on forums, but obviously I'm the one with the problem if I won't take correction. Indeed, all my replies to others on this thread clearly show I'm too sensitive and can't interact without taking offense.

I also accept you alerting on me and sending this to my mail box:

I don't underestimate the intelligence of folks on DU. I don't accept being attacked by someone because they don't understand my post.

You are responsible for your lack of comprehension, lack of humor and lack of manners. That's your problem. Since I tried to contribute something to your thread and you are the one making personal attacks, you might reconsider your belligerence and read with an open mind.

Sadly, you don't accept private messages in return.

I'm not quite sure how my "All right then, rationalizing...I was relaying a story for input, not trying to win a Pulitzer" and my next "You win...Now you can move on with the satisfaction of correcting me twice. :eyes:" deserved this personal attack from you (emphasis mine): "Actually...I went ahead and said what the point was.... giving you the benefit of the doubt that this bizarre attitude was not a permanent condition."

But hey, I'll try being open-minded. Sorry for hurting your feelings!

The "Ignore" function makes life on DU much more pleasant. From what I am able to read (your half of the argument), you would be best served by utilizing it.

Nothing gets resolved when you ignore someone! Then again, there are times when that's the best solution.

Appreciate it. :hi:

I had the same kind of run in recently. I just said, "We had no business going there in the first place--they didn't attack us on 911 and they had no plans to attack us in the future and as far as finishing the job, we have finished the damn job. No WMD's, the regime has been changed, the people have voted, they've written a constitution and they've decided to have a civil war--like all the smart people said they would."

I got the feeling this neighbor didn't like the idea of defeat, period. No matter what it cost. That's tragic.

completely suffering from PTSD, and Iraqi citizens for those who are still there, are suffering mentally also. We have done much damage.

...instead of seeing them as robots performing a duty, who'll just have to tough it out.

Likewise, Iraqi civilians are all lumped together, guilt by association, because of the insurgency.

I'm getting pretty damned tired of tribalism and minimalist thinking ruling the day!

It's just part of American mentality. We own the world. The world is ours. ...especially the land of all those "uncivilized" folks of the world. Didn't you notice? "The world is our Market" is a Basic American Value. Your words are totally alien to those folks. If somebody bugs us, we can swat them. We're a big fucking flyswatter. We're The Bestest Most Free With Purple Mountains Majesty and Any Little Boy Can Be President Bootstrapping Hardy People EVER and we're pretty. Just because it's AT THE EXPENSE OF EVERY OTHER HUMAN ON THE PLANET...so what. We can do whatever we damn well please. THAT oil is OURS because everything on the Earth is OURS because...we are AMERICANS and We Are As GODS. Mwahahahaha

Lee

That's where this mentality has its roots, in American Exceptionalism. It took living overseas for several years to realize I was guilty of it, too. It's insidious. Most Americans believe everyone in the world longs to live here, when just the opposite is true: most are very happy living in their OWN home countries and have no desire to live in the US. (And would be even happier if we butted out of their affairs in some cases.)

come back either, Bush has truly damaged everything.

Some pathetic sense of having to be here to fight this regime was part of it. But I don't know that we could afford to move back to the UK now even if we wanted to, and things aren't any better there really. bLiar saw to that.

Trust me, I know from experience! :)

Naziism the Bush/Cheney bunch subscribe to. Grrrrr

Or simply what they imbibe from that darned "liberal" media.

Welcome to DU, sheerjoy!

My stepdad thoroughly and unwaveringly supports Bush while insisting we should carpet bomb the entire Middle East and "wipe all those ragheads off the map".

I'm sorry you have to put up with that. Both my parents loathe Bush** but would agree with your stepdad and my neighbor about wiping out the middle east. For my parents it's grounded in racism, a very small world view that restricts their compassion to those like themselves.

him, too.

Who even cares what the repuke families of repuke soldiers think, come to think of it? Why should more people die just so they can feel good, or right?

He values the feelings of survivors even above the lives of others, so long as they are just foreigners. Not only does he assume an American life is always worth more than an Iraqi life, he even assumes the values and opinions of the survivors trumps not only Iraqi lives but the lives of other Americans.

He doesn't even realize how selfish he is making out his fictional military families to be.

I'll have to sound him out on that a bit better. My impression from a discussion with him a couple of years ago about BushCo's criminal antics was that he didn't approve.

But you're spot on about how some view military families. They think they're all the same and support Bush**'s illegal war, even if they lose a loved one to it, when nothing could be further from the truth. It's the fiction some need to believe to give them some small consolation, I guess.

Might be dangerous?

Don

I know you were probably being serious, but honestly, this guy has an enviable family. His daughter and son-in-law live just a few houses down, and their kids are the sweetest I've run across. They're always over visiting grandpa and grandma, and the whole family takes regular trips together. Very nice folks, never a bad word to say to anyone, helpful and caring. Which is why this blew me away to the extent I had to share it here.

Weren't we supposed to establish a democracy or something?

...I don't think I'll go there with him. He'll likely point to Japan and won't be interested in hearing about the fundamental difference between the post-WWII and post-Iraq invasion reconstruction plans -- essentially that in the latter case, there was none.

Start to delineate what it would actually mean to use nuclear weapons on Iraq. They didn't do anything to us, so should we then turn around and:

make sure that all the children born for the next 1,000 years are muatations? Missing bones in their skulls, hearts outside their chests, encephalic, cyclopses, etc?

kill everyone - man, woman, child, infant - in an area? Even the innocent? Even those working for peace?

sterilize the country for the rest of history?

force the population of people WHO DID NOTHING TO US into a weeks-long tormented living death through radiation poinsoning? Give them a disease so terrible that they literally rot themselves to death, and throw up their own organs?

I think part of the problem people have these days is that they no longer understand the real effects of nuclear explosions. They are far from pleasant. But people picture them in a TV sitcom way it seems, and not the living death they actually are.

...though they'd take the brunt of it. The radioactive fallout would cover an enormous area. The US would really be a pariah then. We'd be lucky if somebody didn't return the favor. But it would be no different than what we'd already done. Millions of innocents wiped out through blind hatred.

It's just incomprehensible to me how anyone who wants to be taken seriously could wish such indiscriminate death and suffering on others in this day and age. They may as well wish it on themselves.

How can anyone expect to be taken as anything other than a sick ghoul when they advocate nuclear genocide as a solution to the problem of 'we don't like those people'?

I have my uncle Mike, who is insane.
I have my cousin Anthony, who is like an insane person on steroids.
I have my uncle Joe, who is loud and obnoxious, yet slightly less insane than the previous two relatives.

Mike wants to bomb Iraq, THEN bomb Iran.
Anthony wants to bomb Iraq and make it uninhabitable for 300 years.
Joe told Anthony that was like a holocaust and would go too far, he said we should just drop regular bombs on them until everything is destroyed.

I would have engaged them in conversation, but I gave up on trying to do that a long time ago, now I just sit silently and stare at them. I always wondered why my dad did that when I was a kid, now I know why.

I was laughing at your description of your relatives, but it's really not funny. I think insanity is the only way a person could feel no compunction about expressing such horrendous desires.

Not the Rapture Ready kind, but still. That's a thought-provoking line. Thanks, Swamp Rat! :)