Muslim women thrown out of pool for wearing 'burkinis' (France)

The women had plunged into the pool at le Port Leucate wearing full body swimsuits, including a head-covering hijab veil, but were immediately told to get out of the water.

In this case, the women at the Rives des Corbieres holiday camp were told to leave as they had breached the camp's rules allowing only conventional bikinis or one-piece swimsuits "for hygiene reasons"

"Access to the swimming pool is reserved for ordinary swimsuit wearers. Even long shorts are forbidden." Last year a Muslim woman was banned from wearing a "burkini" at a public pool in a Paris suburb, also for hygiene reasons.

The holiday camp where the burkini incident took place is run by a staunchly secular organisation called the "Aude federation of secular works".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7904645/Two-Muslim-women-thrown-out-of-pool-for-wearing-burkinis.html

What is the world does that even mean???



:shrug:

Good grief.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/aug/12/speedos-fashion

swim in French public pools.

Anyway, that's what I read when this issue came up before.

in the pool with your shorts on, or while wearing a dress or jeans for example, because these are street clothes and they could be dirty from wearing them in your daily life. That is why they cite hygiene concerns because a "burkini" could technically be worn outside the pool.

Not much of an argument there.

Basically this is just more bigotry from France. And I'm sure there will be the usual rush of DU "feminists" making the argument that it's perfectly okay to make laws to control what women wear and think and do, so long as they happen to be Muslim.

beliefs.

would violate their religious beliefs. it *would* violate them, unlike your jeans-religion.

jeans to be holy.

Are you saying my religion is unacceptable?

and who has to sit in the back, too.

Doesn't make it any less of a dumbshit decision, and it doesn't make it any less biased against a subset of the population.

saying someone with a certain skin color can't swim in your pool. These are VERY different things. Stores often have signs that say they will not serve you if you are not wearing a shirt and shoes. Is that discrimination too?

yes it is.

Can you please explain to me how a lycra bodysuit is less hygenic than the bare skin of your average french person? Thanks in advance.

are not allowed to wear street wear. That applies to everyone who swims in their pool. You could wear the burkini as street wear, so it would violate their rule and because it could be worn as street wear, it would be unhygienic to wear in their pool. You're welcome.

And now you're back at the beginning: the hygiene rule is about streetwear, this isn't, it isn't pants and a shirt it's swimwear. The move was about the people, not their clothing. All the twisting and bending in the world doesn't hide or excuse that.

pool for health reasons as well. This is a very common requirement in pools across Europe, especially in France. Sorry if that offends you.

Everyone reading this with a clear head knows that. It's the charade; the excuse that offends me. You can repeat yourself all night, and you doubtlessly will, but it's a shamefully flimsy story you've chosen to defend so heartily.

I have a delightfully funny story about
our canal trip through France, wherein
my husband and cousin were FORCED, against
their preferences for the modesty of their TRUNKS, to
buy SPEEDO's in town to gain entry to the
pool.

The wives waited with the children in the
kiddie pool for their "entrance".
I nearly drowned from laughter when my
cousin told me that my husband was
"still shaving" the last time he was
seen.

:rofl:

These rules are enforced for EVERYONE, period.

Then why do they? ;)

It would be like telling American college kids not to wear jeans.

I had to talk my way into one with one of these on.

now THAT is offensive

all kinds of things go into that pool, toys, tubes, balls....

the ONLY reason this isnt allowed it because of religious reasons. at least be honest.

whether they have a right to refuse or not, i hate pretending and arguing to fit agenda

I hate pretending that you know what you are
talking about in this instance.

french rule?

I've never seen those long swim shorts at a pool there. Edit to add that it was disconcerting to me to have to pass a judgement of what I wanted to wear vs could wear. It is France and I don't know why but they have very strict rules. I emailed family there, will let you know if there is a logical reason or if it is just how it is.

it is sounding to me like they have decided how they want the presentation, yet no valid reason i can think of. and to say "threads" when the whole of the outfit is lycra is ridiculous and not logical. seems that it can only be discrimination of religion.

certainly not hygiene seeing how all kinds of bodily fluid ends up in a pool. that is the reality of a swimming pool we all try not to think about. really, if they are so fussy, everyone would have to wear a swimming cap. pools did that in the 60's

and since they have decided certain muslin garments are not permitted in their country, i tend to discrimination.

but i would be interested in what your people have to say.

France is France and all I got from family when I was there was "that is how it is". The OP is about a Muslim in a burkini, but I would get kicked out for wearing my longish boy shorts with a bikini top. It has been like this for at least 40 yrs that I know of.

Men hanging out of speedos and women in bikinis, can be pretty or it can be something else.

Your argument hinges on hte notion that these garments "could be" worn as street wear. yeah, they could. But so could a bikini or swim trunks. (Don't believe me? Check out people of wal-mart). You argue then that it's not "normal" to wear them as such.

So either you're invalidating your argument about not being allowed to wear something that "could be" street wear becuase you acknowledge that permitted garments can be worn as street wear just as easily (even though you may find it tasteless to do so) or you have to concede that depsite their ability to be worn as street wear, the fact that their primary use is for swimming garments clears them; in which case, the "burqini," also very clearly a swimming garment, should be just as acceptable.

And just an FYI; bare skin is actually less sanitary than covered skin. This is why doctors and food handlers wear gloves, even after washing their hands. The burqini is actually more hygenic than the permitted garments, if only for the cap alone.

should take up your argument with the French? I'm just telling you how it is. France commonly requires that men wear "swim trunks" in their pools that in America would be considered speedos. Why? Because baggy swim trunks could be worn as street wear, and they consider that unhygienic. I didn't make the rules, so I don't know why you are arguing with me about it; it's just the way it is there.

Because you're riding to the defense of, and making the case for, a set of rules that are absolutely ridiculous. You didn't make the rules, but you certainly are going to bat for them. So long as you do so, I am going to be arguing with you.

Frankly, any society that uses public pools can't be that concerned about hygiene, anyway. Trust me, if you're in the water with thirty other people, in a facility that sees hundreds of people every day, thousands and thousands between any water changes, a few inches of cloth certainly aren't going to make a difference to your health risks.

Giardia can live up to two weeks in a strongly chlorinated pool, after all.

You attack one poster for "riding to the defense of, and making the case for, a set of rules that are absolutely ridiculous." As I see it, the rule that's absolutely ridiculous here is the religious one requiring a woman to be covered head to toe just to go for a swim.

However, it hurts no one, so long as she is making the decision to dress that way herself.

or to protect myself from being burnt? I fail to see any difference between that and this burkini thing.

Think of all the people who won't admit it, but who do, indeed, urinate. And do you think all those people bathed that morning before going in the pool? STDs. There are a million and one unhygenic things that occur at public pools. The Burkini is the least of their worries.

:wtf:

is made specifically as swimwear. Muslim women don't don that to walk the streets.

regardless of your lack of logic--and acceptance.

street.

I'm not sure but it looks like it is made from the same materials as a regular full body swim suit.

Certainly doesn't look like something you wear out "on the street". Not even close so I would drop that argument.

are made of nylon and spandex--just as you thought.

The rule ostensibly exists to make sure that non-pool clothing is not being worn in the pool and people are not swimming in their street clothes.

This is clearly not street clothing and it is clearly a garment designed for swimming in...the simple direct solution is to alter the wording of the rule to adhere to the spirit of the rule, rather than to break the spirit of the rule in order to utilize the wording to discriminate against an entire religion. I am shocked to find it defended at DU.

The best pizza in my city is served at a orthodox Jewish-owned pizzeria. It does great business with the local orthodox Jewish population to nobody's surprise, the food is all kosher and there is strict adherence to religious food law. It also does a great business with the local Muslim population and the large Ethiopian Coptic-Christian population. This only shocks outsiders to the community. Why though is the point. There used to be another pizzeria nearby owned by an old bigoted guy who put a big sign in the window declaring "No hats or head-coverings allowed" because they interfered with the effectiveness of his video security system. (Orthodox Jews, Muslims and Coptics all have a religious obligation to cover their heads.) Get the old prick drunk enough and start palling around, he'd concede it was pretty effective at "keeping the heebs, camel-jockeys and those n*****rs out too." with a chuckle. A nice Jewish family from Brooklyn opened their own pizzeria and served all the customers the old guy didn't want. He's no longer in business.

Those of us who have seen people try to be clever to defend or effect bigotry are not fooled by this.

in order to prevent people wearing Burkas etc in the pool. I agree with Frances - and the rest of western Europe's moves against the Burkha - it is infinitely wise.

I am sure that it is hard for you to overcome your american sense of righteousness - freedom of religion - etc, etc - however the french are incredibly progressive - literally decades ahead of the US - and they are right in their objection. Profoundly right. I would suggest that insted of sitting on your American traditions you try and understand why.

and that picture is not of a burqa, so it isn't about that.

Laws against forcing her to wear what she doesn't want to wear are perfectly fine.

Law that are specifically targeted towards a religious minority with the sole purpose of trying to control the totally peaceful habits of that minority are not fine.

The exact same garment is not an issue when worn by Christian women in France, after all;

why this is progressively decades ahead of the US.

of religion

what a funny post

this thread is about, when I see that pic!!

:D

Is that you??

:thumbsup:

bikini now, I am not comfortable wearing one either except when surrounded by other middle aged women.

Just because they enforced the swim suit rule to a burkini wearing Muslim does not mean discrimination but a set of (to me) odd rules they apply to all.

and non-speedo type swimwear before this announcement but there has been this rule, according to a poster, for about 40 years. They are merely clarifying the rule for the newish look, the burkinis for muslim women. This is an old rule being updated and not discrimination in my mind. If it were, it would be new.

Last week (or perhaps the week before), Spain's government overturned a potential law banning full veils and hijabs. But Spain has a very long Muslim history...

plus, let's add to the fact that these women are being prohibited not by their male relatives from swimming, but from the society that deems their wearing a full veil makes them subservient. Who is disallowing the woman from swimming and partaking in societal activities?

I do NOT like the full veil/hajib, but this story bothers me because it seems as though it's born out of racism for the "other."

not just at the pool . but at home and doing other everyday things like grocery shopping, cleaning etc.

when you were going to get to a house with a pool.

that was our wear.

i dont see it so much. here in texas. today. but it was beyond norm when i was growing up

My husband and my British cousin had to buy SPEEDO's
to get in.

Funniest moment of my LIFE, I SWEAR!

The reasoning is that other clothing may be worn
outside and bring dirt into the pool.

Maybe some allow trunks, but often they don't because people can wear them as "street clothes",most private pools do not allow them. I agree that it is completely ridiculous.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/01/magazine/01funny_humor.html

You can find a lot more information about it on the internet.

always have been

of our body. on purpose and not.

a particular suit is not gonna contain that

Come on, the French revel in their status as the filthiest people in Europe. I don't believe for a second that this dispute is about hygiene.

i find it high irony that the muslim women were kicked out by frenchmen citing hygiene

Good grief.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/aug/12/speedos-fashion

ending up in that pool.

If you go to France, be prepared.

stupid is as...

well, they will be called on it.

(not talking about you making sense of them)

:eyes:

our campus pool.

Clearly, that would be a good deal more unhygenic than "improper attire".

If the French want these people to assimilate, they are going to have to stop harassing them at every opportunity. A good argument can be made that the Burqa oppresses women by distancing them from the public sphere, but it is not a solution to counter this by intimidation and further isolation from the public sphere. The fact that these women decided to do this at the staunchly secular holiday camp seems to even indicate a protest aspect to their action. I find it difficult to believe that these secularists have so little faith in the secular way of life that they feel the need to use the power of the state to compel compliance. Western secular society has a lot to offer and eventually sells itself to nearly all it comes into contact with.

Blue Jeans can't be worn in a public pool because the color comes off into the pool, (from all the chlorine maybe?) so clothes were not allowed in a pool except for bathing suits. I always wondered why the color didn't fade on a bathing suit either .. ?? :shrug:

in the specific color. Cotton is dyed, and the chlorine removes the dye.

the pool has the right to determine dress code. Like it or not, the decision on what people wear to their pool is up to them.

How 'come liberals only ever become Libertarian Defenders of the Right To Bigotry when the word "Muslim" is uttered?

The women can protest or sue for the right to be able to wear what they'd like. Maybe the courts can force the pool to change it's policy. It's not a matter of them being Muslim. I don't care. I don't care if they want to wear the things. Keep in mind, I used to live in an area wear magic underwear is the norm and it wasn't allowed under bathing suits at those pools.

Bathing costume contest

They offer better UV protection, and not all of us who are middle aged or obese want to walk around in front of everyone with the same or less coverage as our underwear. Plus some of those little outfits are kinda cute.

in andout of the pool. It got annoying having to constantly put on sunscreen.

*Minus the headgear.

not sure why she wore it. maybe sun. maybe more sporty. maybe just liked it. she was a kid. looked like what the competitive swimmers today wear

- requiring the wearing what we would consider bathing suits. Not only do they say it is for hygienic reasons - no dirty street clothes in the pool - but its also for protection of the pool filters and equipment. Some street clothing materials have a tendency to fray and produce lint due to pool chemicals and the concern is that the debris could damage pool filters.

I don't have a clue as to the material used in the burkini and I've not heard of a similar incident elsewhere but this doesn't surprise me.

On account of all men being rapists who would be unable to control their penises should they see a woman's skin.

:eyes:

Some of that has been tried in the US both at public facilities and universities IIRC. Mixed results, mixed acceptance.

problem. Anti-Muslim crap is all it is.

I think the "burkini" is kinda cute. A helluva lot cuter than these.... http://www.wholesomewear.com/page-4.html

Looks like a lightweight wetsuit.

water and you would have a hard time telling who was more clothed than whom.

It's essentially a wet suit, similar to those worn by scuba divers or anyone who's going to be in the water for an extended period of time.

Or does "unhygenic" in France mean "attempt at modest attire that makes everyone else who's got their ass hanging out of their suits uncomfortable?"

dg

with all those topless beaches and all.

same rule then, at out neighborhood pool. If it wasn't "standard" swimming attire, it was NOT allowed, period!

pictured in the OP would be thrown out of the swimming pool or most US pools for that matter. It really does look like something you go swimming in.

So I don't think it is the "same rule".

and every where I worked had a rule about what you can wear in the pool. It wasn't about hygiene, it was about fibers from clothes getting into the filtration system.

of fact.

The dress code for swimming pools is pretty standard everywhere I've ever been. We once had someone want to use a wetsuit at the pool and they weren't allowed. If the rule is applied to everyone it's not discriminatory.

materials that are not the typical swimsuit material. in my day, two piece had crochet swimsuits. cotton. do you kick those people out. i have not seen one suit that was not lycra rejected from a pool. ever.

actually, as a competitive swimmer for almost two decades and 3-5 hours in a pool a day, a lifeguard and living in calif and az., i have never seen a person, kid, who wear a shirt cause fat or sunburn kicked out either.

i imagine that is happening across the nation

The pool dress code was strictly enforced in the apartments I lived in and worked in.

The dress code is specific but doesn't cover every fabric something is made from. Most people enforcing the rules don't know the fabric content of a swimsuit, they just know if it IS considered a swimsuit. If it looks like a swimsuit that we all typically see, it's considered a swimsuit. If it doesn't look like a typical swimsuit then it isn't considered a swimsuit. Nobody is going to check the fabric content.

I'm not commenting on whether it should be that way, I'm just telling you how it is.

(not you personally, but people make and enforcing said rule)

people checking the fabric content of everything people wear to the pool, do you? I can see it now...'please strip so I can check the fabric of your swimsuit.'

and you can smell the bullshit thru out this thread.

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tankini with the "cover your butt" skirted bottom was ok and I barely passed.

They say men wear speedos, women wear one piece or the smallest bikini possible. Men can't (usually) wear swim trunks,and I had to talk my way in with this sort:

I rather doubt it.

and secure again. From my own little universe, I could care less how much more clothing the other sex wants to wear...more, less go for it. It should be all about the beach imo.

... I don't see why they even allow speedos or bikinis. They could require everyone to swim naked.

and much worse, any day.

Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they're not in the water.

is really so hyped up over "hygiene" in a pool, none of them would be in said pool, ever...

How do they know if somebody took a shower before getting into the pool?

I very much doubt muslim women are going to go outside in their burkinis, so that argument doesn't hold water to me at all.