Have "Old" Dems Been Put Out To Pasture?

My daughter is 25 years old. She was raised as a good Democrat. One of her fond memories is as a child when we would require guests attending our Christmas parties to bring an unwrapped gift. The next day we would take the gifts to the local charity to be given to children who would have no Christmas.

Recently, my daughter and I have been exchanging emails on many of the topics that appear here. I must say that there are times when I can hardly recognize the positions she takes. This is especially true when it comes to President Obama. We are both supporters. However, she is a huge fan that seems to think that he can do no wrong. I, on the other hand, have been disappointed.

Our discussions are like a microcosm of what has been occurring here over the past few months. My daughter wants me to be patient and understand that our President has inherited a huge mess that no one could fix in a mere 18 months. Of course, I tell her that while I understand that, I am puzzled why our President seems to be carrying on many Bush policies without much of an effort to address the wrongs of the previous administration. I express my disappointment that he lost a golden opportunity upon arriving in office. She seems convinced that a little progress is better than no progress.

We both seem to be talking past each other a little. However, we are very careful not to let our language degenerate into anything near disrespectful. After all, while we are both a bit stubborn, we still care for each other and have nurtured a good relationship.

This brings me to my favorite quote (which I sent to her).

But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal." JFK, September, 1960

She didn't have much of a reaction to the quote other than to say that "times have changed"

I was a little depressed upon hearing her response to my offering. It got me to thinking about the state of affairs when it comes to "old" democrats. Are we no longer viable? Are the old axioms of our party dead? Have we been put out to pasture?

-P

I'm getting awfully grumpy.

I have not seen you around here in forever. Are you just popping in or have I just missed you in other threads? How are you and your kids doing?

My kids and I are surviving. Most of my time is eaten up by court stuff, as my ex is still taking me to court. We've been in 13 or 14 times in a year and a half and gone through a CPS investigation and two Friend of the Court investigations. I'm hoping the court will see it as the harassment it is soon. *sigh*

How are you guys doing? :hug:

Sounds like you, not her. Times have changed. She cares about the welfare of the people, their health which has gotten considerably better; their housing with 4-5 new programs off the top of my head; their schools which just student loans alone is dratically better; their civil rights which are also significantly better with more to do; and civil liberties will hopefully be better for immigrants, and yes detainees, to name a few.

I imagine she also understands that we need to "break through the stalemate and suspicions", except now we need to do it here at home.

And that is still what it means to be a Liberal, in these changing times.

Maybe I'm the "rigid" one.

On Edit: I still have the fight in me. I just seem to be fighting my own party.

The party has been subverted and shifted to the right. You're still fighting for the same things, the right things.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.

and not a cannon ball.

I'm under 45 and I can still see clearly the effect the past 30 years of conservative reign have had on America (and yes I sure do include Bill Clinton in that list). My hats are off to those of you over 60 who fought so hard, and it is frankly embarrassing to see my generation roll over and accept these injustices.

still think we need more than ripples right now but I do understand your context better.

if they're accepting the state of things now under "times have changed", that is a very scary thought indeed.

:(

I'm not too young to remember when 'Happy Days are Here Again" was THE Democratic campaign song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPiNIzSM3RQ I knew something was afoot when Bubba Clinton changed it to "Don't Stop Giving away Tomorrow" and free traded away all the things that old Democrats worked for. It's pretty clear that the new corporatists intend to put the old Dems out to pasture, so I guess I will have to be patient with the younger generation while they figure it out for themselves.

Remember when you told your parents that? (Maybe not you personally, but there were a whole bunch of people
saying what she said to you) ;)

But despite all the side roads, it was power vs no power back then, and it still is.

When they put you out to pasture I guess that means you get to eat in the "way back forty!"

But, ONCE we DID fight the fight and our voices were heard! Now, it's just sit at the PC and gripe because it seems TPTB don't give a tinker's damn!!

I'm floundering and wandering around trying to find a place to fit in. Don't like what I'm seeing or feeling and can't really make up my mind what "move" to make next!

I will say this much... got my look at the Florida Primary ballot last week and I always vote, but I'm really wondering what I'll do! Many of my friends have already told me they will be voting for Crist, but in the Primary we have to vote Party!

I have a feeling Crist is going to win simply by what so many of my Democratic friends are telling me! So, this is a GOOD indication as to what THIS CURRENT DEMOCRATIC PARTY is looking at!! Sad, but oh so true!

raised as Democrats from the get go, they tell me I "worry" too much, I don't have any power anyway! They say I just get myself too worked up because it doesn't matter! I simply tell them that "one day" they are going to EAT THOSE WORDS!! They SHOULD be eating them NOW!!

Sooooooooooooo, that says way too much to me!!

'Cause the folks that are around now ain't gonna sing for their social security or anything else, I don't think.

That the Florida Democratic party is run so bad, the GOP could do a better job. They are ignoring Meek, handing the election to Crist, and focusing on their weak campaign for Alex Sink. If Rick Scott becomes governor, this state might as well be the ninth layer of Hell, as he makes The Tea party look like Dennis K.

my attention on Rubio, or FEAR let's say, but now it looks ALL DOWN HILL! As a Floridian the situation here has certainly been precarious for too, too many years, and yet it actually seems it may just get WORSE!!

Just writing these words here is enough to pull my hair out. Where many have told me so many times to get involved "locally" because of all the angst I've felt "nationally" I don't think so many realize that LOCAL is ALSO an uphill climb! If the state wide Democratic Party is so lame, just think for ONE MOMENT how destitute I feel in a SUPER RED COUNTY!! Sarasota County is a bastion of Repukes and I can't remember in my lifetime here when it was anything else! I've lived here since 1987 and have YET to see anything else!

Democratic candidates have come and gone, MOSTLY GONE and a mild fight is fought by the Dems here, but for the most part I've seen nothing get accomplished! And I must also add that there are many "grays" here who "say" they're die hard Dems, but to me are very DLC! I UNDERSTAND the reality of the situation here, but I'm like a fish out of water with them. I've always been so much more Liberal, and there are some who feel like I do, but we just shake our heads and feel left out. Sitting in a corner wondering what the hell we think we're doing at meetings that seem lame and full of "dried out air" coming from the lips of those in charge!

Believe me, I've tried to make a push from time to time, but no longer get involved. I KNOW there are Democrats around that feel like I do, but they too have come to the same realization that I have. We just don't have the numbers to make a difference and trying to hold our "own" meetings show numbers of such small proportions that it would make some of you laugh out loud!

I put a lot of time and effort into OBAMA, worked SUPER, SUPER hard because that's what I was brought up to do. But now my balloon I held so high has leaked so much air, that it's disgraceful to try to fly it again!

Mostly, it's VERY DEPRESSING, and LONELY! I know why my kids tell me what they do, but my long time activism has simply been an extension of who I am for so long it's so difficult to let go. But the "numbers" can't be ignored and I see myself as somewhat of a dinosaur left to die on the flat sand of our beaches!

Boy, what a "down" rant for a Tuesday morning! Better go get busy doing something like housework that I can at least SEE a result from!

Singing the Blues, it ain't so pretty I know!
:grr: :nuke: and mostly :cry:

So many people hurting and needing help, it breaks my heart!

I'm 21 years old. I was born two weeks before the 1988 election, and thus my only real memories of politics consist of the Whitewater and Lewinsky "scandals", and the eight years of recklessness and fearmongering under Bush. For many of us, Obama is the first President we've seen that seems to truly care about the direction this country is headed in. While I am disappointed in some of the things he has done, mainly Afghanistan and Guantanamo, there is still time for him to rectify his mistakes, and for the DNC to realize that backing weak-willed centrists is a losing strategy.

Besides, can anyone on here say they weren't that idealistic when it was Kennedy, Johnson, or Carter taking office?

Thanks...

It is important to remember the obvious here. Some don't have the history to call upon. And of course, it is impossible to have the same perspective when all you've known is Bush on forward. Obama must look like a real savior. And perhaps he will be.

started with Clinton

fortunately, I do thing the new, up-and-coming generation is much closer to the old way than the DLC crowd, so there is hope

did you not notice ?

Many many of us did ..and still do!

It is money. Hillary is older, yet she did quite well edging out the other Democrats. If she managed to stop Bill from sabotaging her campaign with his mouth, she might have still won.

:eyes:

My reply blamed her HUSBAND, not her, and well, another man, her campaign manager, who somehow managed to make such a mess of the operation that even SHE got livid.

wished they'd hurry up and die.

Does that make for age bias? For that matter, if I had the benefit of a Time Machine, I could abort any children the Bush twins have, to kill off the bushes, is that age bias?

No, what you canot handle is the fact that the Clintons wore the mantle of Change, and chucked it when it suited them. Sadly, Obama has chosen to imitate them. As I have said, and will say, everything that sucks about the Obama admin, from the clinton era hacks (geitner, rahm, bernake) to the tri-angulation (which is what Clinton called three dimensional chess back then)is that Obama became what we did not need, another Clinton.

the 60"s...a word that sounds like DUNT..

and it was targeted at women over 50..and it was promoted by a certain campaign!

But many of the younger crowd are actually farther to the left. They elected Obama because he promised to be a change from the DLC (If we wanted Clinton, we would have voted for her, and we did not, damn it!) They will be in a good position to make changes once the DLC implodes, which it will do, regardless of who wins in 2012. The Clinton's won't live forever, and neither will the people they represent, those of the Boomers that talk hippie and act Yuppie.

1. No, the younger crowd is leaning strongly toward the right.
2. Change has become a bad joke.
3. While you're waiting to "off" the baby boomers, you might consider the possibility that your parents might be considered baby boomers...

I cannot believe all the good will and capital to make changes that I have watched Obama basically throw away over the past 18 months.

and those of us who worked in Iowa for the dems know a certain guy stole Edwards mantra of change..there was not one sign for the O man in Iowa that said Change..the o man stole that when he went to NH after Iowa..

Us damn Hippy type and Baby Boomers Yuppies have good memories!!

I have been called elegant many many times....not Hippy type before..but whatever..isn't this shit sterotyping and profiling? What the Obama team supposedly objects to?

Ah and I would say Hillary won my state..of Fla and our Primary votes of over 2 million were stolen...of which Hillary won overwhelmingly!

It had to be stolen with Buying Super delegates.

Ahhh and since i have been an elected delegate in my state..I think This "Hippy" as you want to calls some of us ..understands the system!

Sigh..It's funny how Hillary demanded everything be followed to the letter, until breaking the rules suited her.

was Obama when he campaigned against the rules implemented for his benefit..look it up!

Depends on the Boomer. Ones that are right wing, yes, but that is because they are right wing, period. You seem to want to paint me as someone who hates all Boomers, sorry, ones like Chomsky, Kristofferson, even Joe Bageant are OK by me, it is just that many right wingers and "independents" use the 60's as cover, much to the chagrin of the genuine hippies like Dylan and Neil Young that know exactly what sort of BS these faux hippies are doing.

"The Clinton's won't live forever, and neither will the people they represent, those of the Boomers that talk hippie and act Yuppie."

Note: Republicans would never allow accusations of "hippie" to fly in their direction. I think its safe to say, that democrats were the hippies by and large.

people like pj rourke who claim they were hippies all along, yet turned right wing. To clarify, when I said "talk hippie" I mean those who ACT like they are all about the peace love stuff, but who are not...wolves in sheep's clothing, of which, there are a lot. And Yes, Clinton did wrap himself in the hippie mantle while destroying everything that real hippies cared about. But oh no, some people love their self narrative where they are the only ones that ever cared about anything, even if we in Gen X actually felt and lived the consequences of the choices the previous generation made when they voted in Reagan.

:eyes:

the neo-liberals win.

eom

It's discouraging to note that we have so many who support Reaganomics (IMO, the very root of all our economic woes). Basically, the country sees Reaganesque policies as the foundational underpinnings of our system and the only debate is between varying degrees of conservatism in economics. When I see younger people here argue for these types of policies, I believe most don't even know that's where the beliefs they hold originated.

Older Democrats who support these policies, I think, are those whose lives are still, by and large, unaffected by the current debacle. Oh, sure. They may have had to cut down on trips to Starbucks and vacation this year is a road trip rather than Mexico but it's all good. They have bought into the Reaganesque beliefs that people's problems are all, mostly, the result of their own bad choices and can't see a day when circumstances beyond their control could undo their life and all their smart choices through the years.

No doubt this is the result of the bizarre admixture of "zero tolerance" and "esteem boosting" to which they've been subjected.

But young people today are massive conformos. I put zero stock in their opinions regarding anything.

We all want to watch TV news and believe in our government. Nobody wants to acknowledge the elephant fertilizing the living room carpet.

But yeah, something stinks to high heaven and I wont STFU, not for DU, not or anyone. I hope DU comes around but accept that I may have my privilege to post revoked. But I wont give up my human right to voice my opinion for DU when they are 100% wrong.

The conversation you are having with your daughter is much the same as I have had with my brother. Our disagreement is not about our ultimate goal, but rather process.

Our national dialogue did not change from where it was in the 60s to where it is today over night. In my youth, I had expectations of where our country would move. I have been astonished and dismayed at the trend general political views have taken in my lifetime. Certainly, my expectations have been altered.

The shift to the right that is evident nationally has taken place over many years. They turned the ship slowly, and it has been charging full speed ahead in the wrong direction for far too long. I have taken a lesson from how the other party has accomplished that over the course of my lifetime.

They didn't pick it all up and shake it all out in the course of one president, much less one term. Certainly the measures that Obama has been able to accomplish with a less-than-compliant majority are as profound as those that Reagan achieved in the opposite direction all those many years ago.

I also liked Carter better than my brother did. Bro was very critical during Carter's single too-short term. His views have since moved closer to my own, in hindsight.

I have always been a more patient person than my brother. Maybe that's the main difference between us.

Edit: because I'm a lousy proofreader until after I hit the post button.

less exhausting. :)

I was at a party Saturday night with many of the next generation.

In a circle sat some of my dear young friends: three pilots, a pilot's wife, an Air Force Vet, two stay-at-home moms, a psychologist, a school administrator, a graphic artist, a farmer, several chefs. I sat among all those young women and thought that together they could take over the world if they wanted to. But each is caught in her own web of work and family and marriage/relationship.

Our society encourages isolation, and this generation must work harder to make ends meet. I think there are many progressive, liberal kids out there but they are limited in their opportunities to organize and learn.

But they're watching. If the Democrats don't speak to the issues they care about: environment, end of wars, LGBT equality, legalization of cannabis, end of the prison state, more funding for education, affordable housing, health care, the homeless - younger voters are not going to get excited enough to vote as they did for Obama.

They will either ignore the polls with these DINOs as their only option, or they will pick up on some Rightwing blather that DOES address some concern they have and vote for the R.

None of these young women is self-centered or callous. Each does her part for the mountain community in a generous and humble way. But their leaders are not setting the same example.

Later on, the guys showed up: a nurse, a student, a National Guard soldier just home from Iraq (so good to see that mountain kid home safe but I tearfully digress.) We sat on the front porch playing guitars and singing.

I thought about all the fighting on DU, sitting on the porch steps staring at the moon. I thought how easy it was for some DUers to imagine that if they convince everyone to just "shut-up-and-vote-Dem-and-don't-rock-the-boat-or-say-anything-bad-cuz-it's-an-election-year-be-sensibly-pragmatic" then DU itself will be wonderfully free of anxiety and woe and flame wars.

But what is that acquiescence going to do for these kids? They don't follow DU. What is the party going to give these young people? Or the voters in general for that matter? Just because a woodchuck is chucking right along, doesn't mean many voters are doing the same. The pragmatists can ignore the voters' issues, say they aren't relevant at this time, but those issues are certainly relevant to the voter.


Your daughter may vote Dem willingly. I don't think all of these kids will even care enough to vote.


P.S. I tried to bring up politics, but my daughter made me stop. The pasture, indeed...

Thanks for your articulate and well thought-out post. I suppose that we have to remind ourselves that there is a life beyond DU with people that are busy just living life. What we do here is such a small slice of the "life pie."

The abuse toward our old line democratic ideals is leaving a bitter taste in my mouth.

She is just facing reality and being pragmatic. Why is that so difficult to accept for some of the "old" democrats?

I will look for and support progressive independents.

maybe someday folks like you will understand that.

I have raised her to think independently. It is certainly not a requirement that she agree with me. In fact, I would be offended if she did not exercise her own method(s) of critical thinking. She may indeed be right. I hope that I am learning as much from her as she is from me.

to get where we want to be. Clearly you are not happy with what has been done and probably think its not much different that under Bush. I think thats totally off base and that progress has been made, albeit not as substantial as we wanted, but at least we have turned this ship around and are now heading in the right direction. I guess I am more patient and willing to wait to achieve real reform and progress.. and making this country "liberal" is not going to be easy and in fact may be impossible.

I also think one big factor that affects me more than anything is knowing how horrible it was under Bush/Cheney and how horrible it could have been under McCain/Palin. I am so just so incredibly relieved to not have Bush or McCain or any Republican siting in the WH that I tend to give the President and the Democrats a great deal of slack and benefit of the doubt when they do something I dont like.

and benefit of the doubt when they do something I don't like."

This is depressing beyond belief, that we give anyone with a D beside her or his name carte blanche just because they're not republicans. If you are coherent enough to vote than you are coherent enough to challenge any politician or president who strays from their original message or party principles.

but became a dedicated Democrat when I saw what damage GOP rule did to America during the Bush era. We cannot afford that to happen again.

is as bad as the damage done by the republicans when they were in power?

Think about it.

putting on the air of 'inevitability'.
Its the same tactic as the neocons, from whom these people take their lead.
Appearance/perception is reality. Control perception and you control reality.

I agree with your daughter. No, we have not been put out to pasture. Our children are beginning to shape the world they will raise their children in. She's right--it is a different time. The world we grew up in and the political and economic dynamics were much different. So was the international alignment and the size of the foes we fought. It is our generation that needs to give the steering wheel over. The vehicle rolled off the cliff while we were at the wheel--yes, I include us old Liberals. We need to help push things forward, not sit and pitch a fit because change was not instantaneous.

want the world to remain the same. I suppose it is the beliefs expressed in the JFK quote that I do not want to see leave our party. I know that the world is different from our generation. The problems are different and the people are different. However, isn't it our duty to maintain the axioms of our party? If we see it stray from the long-held beliefs that have defined our party, isn't it our obligation to try and maintain what we perceive to be the essential convictions of our party?

Our solutions may not be the ones that work best. The older I get the more I understand the meaning of the words "generation gap." Sometimes I feel as though the future has rushed up so fast that it has knocked me backward. There is a mindset out there now that I don't understand, and it is linked to technology and the use of information. There is much about it that I am uncomfortable with, but I am not a part of it either. I did not grow up that way. Then my parents or grandparents never faced the challenges of the world we lived in as adults although they shaped the dynamics of that environment. I've come to the conclusion that I've taught the values and that the best I can do. I have to trust the children I raised to apply them to their lives and the world they live in. I have not been disappointed--and they sound a lot like your daughter. They are doing very well with raising their families and participating in their communities and nation. That is all we can ask...that is legacy in the truest sense of the word. One day, we'll be gone and it really will not matter any longer.

...seem to have bought the idea that past history is of no consequence. That "times have changed". That old battles are dusty relics, from which we don't need to try and learn because "things are different now".

That, of course, serves the powers that be very well, as they continue to press their points: unions are outdated; Social Security and pensions are outmoded and should be replaced with "privatized accounts" that are "under your control"; the old battles are over; outsourcing is just the way thing are these days; etc etc ad nauseam. Remember when they said "People are tired of the Clintons and all the battles they fought while in office. People are tired of the old battles of the '60s." etc.

So the young people either disengage from politics altogether, or come into it idealistically but without any grounding in ideology. Not that I would want anyone to be an idealogue, but you really should have some understanding of the ideologies that are in play if you are going to follow politics.

Oddly, though, the youth on the right are absolutely ideology-based.

It's all very upsetting.

There was a time when people with money, and people who were merely comfortable, cared about others.

Obviously, there is something wrong with your heart. It has become hard."

and stringy....


mark

(soon to be 63)

also what I sent to my daughter:


I think that many people gave President Obama the benefit of the doubt very early even when he was making appointments that (even you might agree) were questionable at best. However, when the road that Mr. Obama was (is) on continued to raise even more questions, many of us began to wonder if we were being hoodwinked in the name of bipartisanship...an approach that smacked more of naivete than a sophisticated political strategy.

Yes, Congress is a major factor. However, the President has a bully pulpit. And for whatever reason, he has not successfully articulated a message that matches either literally or figuratively the speeches he gave during the campaign. The soaring rhetoric of the campaign which emphasized hope and change gave many of us the courage to say...Okay, one more time. It took a while, but now I'll overcome my cynicism and support him.

I can only imagine how some feel after giving so much to the President during the campaign only to see so many Bush policies continue taking our country down the wrong road. Okay, so some had unrealistic expectations. But can you blame them after the kind of campaign that Mr. Obama conducted. For many, that campaign now sounds more like a "sales" job appealing to our desire to "believe." Disappointment is necessarily tied to expectation. Is there any doubt that the author of our expectations was (to some extent) Mr. Obama himself.

In the President's defense, much of the fever during the campaign had a "life of its own." It became something even bigger than Obama himself. However, while he stated that it would take time, the "hope and change" mantra continued right through November.

There is a sense among some that what was left by the previous administration is so devastating that no single person could correct the ship of state in a mere 18 months. This is reasonable to consider. However, there is another school of thought that says what was left by the Bush administration is so devastating that only quick and decisive action commensurate to the problems we face is required.

It is my belief that people on the left (especially those who would frequent this board) are passionate about their beliefs. "Passion" runs hand-in-hand with being impatient...I'm one of those. I don't feel like we have the time to negotiate with the RW in the name of cooperation. The problems are too deep.

Many would love the rest of us to look at what has been accomplished in 18 months. And indeed, we should not discount the fact that some progress has been made. I "try" and remind myself of that everyday. However, some would argue that the progress that has been made is somewhat hollow. There is nothing worse than a half-ass attempt. It just doesn't feel right. It is analogous to how I feel towards the Repugs. There is very little that I agree with (policy-wise) with my friends on the Right. However (and this is important), I KNOW where they are coming from. I know what to expect from them and I am not surprised when they side with corporations to the debt of the rest of us. What angers me (and I believe many others) is when our own party does not act like the party we have supported and sacrificed for. This is far more devastating than anything the Right could do.

Because the President didn't grab the message right at the start and let the RW frame the arguments (which is just simply beyond my understanding), Mr. Obama has now been made out to be a Marxist, Socialist...the most Liberal President in history...etc.etc. Well...if the RW has successfully convinced the wingnuts out there that he is as extreme as they say, then you might as well make bold strokes towards what is fair for the "people" of this country and not bow to the right cowering and shaking at every Fox News report.

I will try and be patient. I will try and understand that what I thought would happen with Healthcare didn't happen, but someday it will. I'll try and understand for now, that it is still okay to listen in on my telephone conversations. I'll try and put behind me the fact that we committed horrible war crimes and no one was brought to justice. I'll give it go to accept that banks received bailout money with little or no regulation to insure that the money (at least a crumb or two) would make it to the people. I'll try and accept my new role on the "radical left" when it wasn't that long ago, I was considered just a Democrat. I'll try and give my "new" Democratic friends the time they need to show that they have not abandoned the essential planks that have served the Democratic Party for decades and made us the Party of the People.

-P

You explain it better than anyone has, I believe.


This:

"However, the President has a bully pulpit. And for whatever reason, he has not successfully articulated a message that matches either literally or figuratively the speeches he gave during the campaign."


and this:


"what was left by the Bush administration is so devastating that only quick and decisive action commensurate to the problems we face is required"

say it all.

We wanted a president who acted like **, pushing through his agenda without worrying about what his enemies thought. We've come to expect a president who acts as the Unitary Executive because of the experience with **. And now that it's our turn, we want to see a rapid response in the correct direction from our leader.

But he has a timid congress, i know. And all that...

It's just difficult when we know the changes which must be made to survive, and those changes aren't even up on the table for discussion.

Thanks for this great thread :hi:

. . . wish I could be optimistic as to whether they'll ever return. :shrug: