I can forgive Obama for his dealings with Congress, but the war stuff is all him.

We didn't get the public option and DADT hasn't been repealed yet. But sometimes in a democracy with competing priorities and need to be reelected my preferences don't always get heard. It's difficult dealing with competing constituencies and values.

That being said, continuing Bush's war in Afghanistan and the civil liberties violations that are being executed in the name of national security are all the prerogative of the executive branch.

Where is the restoration of habeus corpus that he campaigned on? Why are we still conducting predator drone strikes that wipe out tons of civilians? We are we still doing rendition?

These are all things that Obama could simply eliminate.

I'm pretty happy with his legislative agenda based on the circumstances. But the terrorism related stuff has been rough.

If it's any consolation (probably not) he said point blank where he stood on Afghanistan and Pakistan during his campaign.

The other issues you mentioned weren't high on my priority list and they're never talked about in the media. So to be quite honest I can't really answer them.

but with the 2nd one it just feels like we're putting more and more resources into something that is never going to produce meaningful results. There's a certain amount of effort we have to put in to achieve what I think are reasonable goals, but if we're not getting any returns on the investment then we have to get out. At this point, I'm just asking when enough is enough.

Talking about it doesn't make it right.

And assuming one disagreed with it, what could one do? Vote for McPalin? Nader? Not vote? What would you have counseled? :shrug:

I didn't at all suggest him being clear on his position means you shouldn't disagree with it. But I've actually seen people act surprised - thinking Obama promised to leave Afghanistan.

if talking matters.

Hot air and right wing policy is not what I want.

... in fact he said it was essential, and what happened to that?

Oh yeah, the "he talked about it" excuse only works in the negative.

Shame on Obama for not writing legislation for himself to sign. Not only did accomplish what several other Presidents have tried and failed to do, he did so with the opposition in a united front and somehow managed to work his way around a filibuster.

On that note, the only reason Reconciliation was even an option is because he managed to work the bill to be a net deficit reduction, which would be next to impossible to do if the public option was included. No Reconciliation = Filibuster = no bill at all.

But here's a time line for what was passed.

http://docs.house.gov/energycommerce/TIMELINE.pdf
HEALTH INSURANCE REFORM AT A GLANCE
IMPLEMENTATION TIMELINE
2010
Immediate Access to Insurance for Uninsured Individuals with a Pre-Existing Condition. Provides eligible individuals access to coverage that does not impose any coverage exclusions for pre-existing health conditions. This provision ends when Exchanges are operational.
Small Business Tax Credit. Initiates the first phase of the small business tax credit for qualified small employers for contributions to purchase health insurance for employees. The credit is up to 35 percent of the employer’s contribution to provide health insurance for employees. There is also a credit of up to 25 percent for small nonprofit organizations.
Eliminating Pre-Existing Condition Exclusions for Children. Bars all employer plans and new plans in the individual market from imposing pre-existing condition exclusions on children’s coverage.
Prohibiting Rescissions. Prohibits abusive practices whereby health plans rescind existing health insurance policies when a person gets sick as a way of avoiding covering the costs of enrollees’ health care needs.
Eliminating Lifetime Limits and Restricting Use of Annual Limits. Prohibits all health plans from placing lifetime limits on coverage, and prohibits the use of restrictive annual limits in all employer plans and new plans in the individual market.
Covering Preventive Health Services. All new group health plans and plans in the individual market must provide first dollar coverage for preventive services.
Extending Dependent Coverage. Requires all plans in the individual market and new employer plans that provide dependent coverage for children to continue to make that coverage available up to age 26; for existing employer plans, this applies only to young people not offered their own employer-provided coverage.
Reducing the Cost of Covering Early Retirees. Creates a new temporary reinsurance program (until the Exchanges are available) to help offset the costs of expensive claims for employers and retirees, for health benefits for retirees age 55-64.
New, Independent Appeals Process. Requires that any new group health plan or new plan in the individual market implement an effective internal and external appeals process for coverage determinations and claims.
PREPARED BY COMMITTEES ON WAYS & MEANS, ENERGY & COMMERCE, AND EDUCATION & LABOR, APRIL 2, 2010 2
Improving Consumer Assistance. Provides aid to states in establishing offices of health insurance consumer assistance in order to help individuals with the filing of complaints and appeals.
Improving Consumer Information through the Web. Requires the Secretary of HHS to establish an Internet website through which residents of any State may identify affordable health insurance coverage options in that State.
Cracking Down on Health Care Fraud. Requires enhanced screening procedures for health care providers to eliminate fraud and waste in the health care system.
Rebates for the Part D “Donut Hole”. Provides a $250 rebate for all Part D enrollees who enter the donut hole. Currently, the coverage gap falls between $2,700 and $6,154 in total drug costs.
Improving Public Health Prevention Efforts. Creates an interagency council to promote healthy policies at the federal level and establishes a prevention and public health investment fund to provide an expanded and sustained national investment in prevention and public health programs.
Strengthening the Quality Infrastructure. Additional resources provided to HHS to develop a national quality strategy and support quality measure development and endorsement for the Medicare, Medicaid and CHIP quality improvement programs.
Extending Payment Protections for Rural Providers. Extends Medicare payment protections for small rural hospitals, including hospital outpatient services, lab services, and facilities that have a low-volume of Medicare patients, but play an important role in their communities.
Establishing a Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute. Establishes a private, non-profit institute to identify national priorities and provide for research to compare the effectiveness of health treatments and strategies.
Ensuring Medicaid Flexibility for States. A new option allowing States to cover parents and childless adults up to 133 percent of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) and receive current law Federal Medical Assistance Percentage (FMAP) will take effect.
Non-Profit Hospitals. Establishes new requirements applicable to nonprofit hospitals beginning in 2010, including periodic community needs assessments.
Expanding the Adoption Credit and Adoption Assistance Program. Increases the adoption tax credit and adoption assistance exclusion by $1,000, makes the credit refundable, and extends the credit through 2011. The enhancements are effective for tax years beginning after December 31, 2009.
Encouraging Investment in New Therapies. A two‐year temporary credit subject to an overall cap of $1 billion to encourage investments in new therapies to prevent, diagnose, and treat acute and chronic diseases. The credit would be available for qualifying investments made in 2009 and 2010.
Tax Relief for Health Professionals with State Loan Repayment. Excludes from gross income payments made under any State loan repayment or loan forgiveness program that is intended to provide for the increased availability of health care services in underserved or health professional shortage areas. This provision is effective for amounts received by an individual in taxable years beginning after December 31, 2008.
PREPARED BY COMMITTEES ON WAYS & MEANS, ENERGY & COMMERCE, AND EDUCATION & LABOR, APRIL 2, 2010 3
Excluding from Income Health Benefits Provided by Indian Tribal Governments. Excludes from gross income the value of specified Indian tribal health benefits. The provision is effective for benefits and coverage provided after the date of enactment.
Establishing a National Health Care Workforce Commission. Establishes an independent National Commission to provide comprehensive, nonbiased information and recommendations to Congress and the Administration for aligning federal health care workforce resources with national needs.
Strengthening the Health Care Workforce. Expands and improves low-interest student loan programs, scholarships, and loan repayments for health students and professionals to increase and enhance the capacity of the workforce to meet patients’ health care needs.
Special Deduction for Blue Cross Blue Shield (BCBS). Requires that non-profit BCBS organizations have a medical loss ratio of 85 percent or higher in order to take advantage of the special tax benefits provided to them under Internal Revenue Code (IRC) Section 833, including the deduction for 25 percent of claims and expenses and the 100 percent deduction for unearned premium reserves.
Indoor Tanning Services Tax. Imposes a ten percent tax on amounts paid for indoor tanning services in lieu of the tax on cosmetic surgery. Indoor tanning services are services that use an electronic product with one or more ultraviolet lamps to induce skin tanning. The tax would be effective for services on or after July 1, 2010.
Holding Insurance Companies Accountable for Unreasonable Rate Hikes. Creates a grant program to support States in requiring health insurance companies to submit justification for unreasonable premium increases starting in plan year 2010, and insurance companies with excessive or unjustified premium increases between 2010 and 2014 could be prohibited from participating in the new Health Insurance Exchanges.
2011
Bringing Down the Cost of Health Care Coverage. Health insurers, including grandfathered plans, must annually report on the share of premium dollars spent on medical care as opposed to profits or administration and provide consumer rebates where less than 80 to 85 percent of dollars are used for benefits.
Strengthening Community Health Centers and the Primary Care Workforce. Provides funds to build new and expand existing community health centers, and expands funding for scholarships and loan repayments for primary care practitioners working in underserved areas.
Increasing Reimbursement for Primary Care. Provides a 10 percent Medicare bonus payment for primary care physicians and general surgeons.
Increasing Training Support for Primary Care. Establishes a Graduate Medical Education policy allowing unused training slots to be re-distributed for purposes of increasing primary care training at other sites.
Improving Health Care Quality and Efficiency. Establishes a new Center for Medicare & Medicaid Innovation to test innovative payment and service delivery models to reduce health care costs and enhance the quality of care provided to individuals.
Improving Preventive Health Coverage. Provides a free, annual wellness visit and personalized prevention plan services for Medicare beneficiaries and requires new plans to cover preventive services with little to no
PREPARED BY COMMITTEES ON WAYS & MEANS, ENERGY & COMMERCE, AND EDUCATION & LABOR, APRIL 2, 2010 4
cost sharing. Creates incentives for State Medicaid programs to cover evidence-based preventive services with no cost-sharing, and requires coverage of tobacco cessation services for pregnant women.
Improving Transitional Care for Medicare Beneficiaries. Establishes the Community Care Transitions Program to provide transition services to high-risk Medicare beneficiaries.
Expanding Primary Care, Nursing, and Public Health Workforce. Increases access to primary care by adjusting the Medicare Graduate Medical Education program. Primary care and nurse training programs are also expanded to increase the size of the primary care and nursing workforce. Ensures that public health challenges are adequately addressed.
Increasing Access to Home and Community Based Services. The new Community First Choice Option, which allows States to offer home and community based services to disabled individuals through Medicaid rather than institutional care, takes effect on October 1, 2011.
Transitioning to Reformed Payments in Medicare Advantage. Freezes 2011 Medicare Advantage payment benchmarks at 2010 levels to begin transition. Continues to reduce Medicare Advantage benchmarks in subsequent years relative to current levels. Benchmarks will vary from 95% of Medicare spending in high-cost areas to 115% of Medicare spending in low-cost areas. Changes are phased-in over 3, 5 or 7 years, depending on the level of payment reductions.
Discounts in the Part D “Donut Hole”: Provides a 50 percent discount on all brand-name drugs in the donut hole and begins phasing in additional discounts on brand-name and generic drugs to completely close the donut hole by 2020 for all Part D enrollees.
Reporting Health Coverage Costs on Form W-2: Requires employers to disclose the value of the benefit provided by the employer for each employee’s health insurance coverage on the employee’s annual Form W-2.
Standardizing the Definition of Qualified Medical Expenses. Conforms the definition of qualified medical expenses for HSAs, FSAs, and HRAs to the definition used for the itemized deduction. An exception to this rule is included so that amounts paid for over-the-counter medicine with a prescription still qualify as medical expenses.
Increased Additional Tax for Withdrawals from Health Savings Accounts and Archer Medical Savings Account Funds for Non-Qualified Medical Expenses. Increases the additional tax for HSA withdrawals prior to age 65 that are not used for qualified medical expenses from 10 to 20 percent. The additional tax for Archer MSA withdrawals not used for qualified medical expenses would increase from 15 to 20 percent.
Cafeteria Plan Changes. Creates a Simple Cafeteria Plan to provide a vehicle through which small businesses can provide tax‐free benefits to their employees. This would ease the small employer’s administrative burden of sponsoring a cafeteria plan. The provision also exempts employers who make contributions for employees under a simple cafeteria plan from nondiscrimination requirements applicable to highly compensated and key employees.
Pharmaceutical Manufacturers Fee. Imposes an annual, non-deductible fee on the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry allocated according to market share and not applying to companies with sales of branded pharmaceuticals of $5 million or less.
PREPARED BY COMMITTEES ON WAYS & MEANS, ENERGY & COMMERCE, AND EDUCATION & LABOR, APRIL 2, 2010 5
2012
Encouraging Integrated Health Systems. Implements physician payment reforms that enhance payment for primary care services and encourage physicians to join together to form “accountable care organizations” to gain efficiencies and improve quality.
Linking Payment to Quality Outcomes. Establishes a hospital value-based purchasing program to incentivize enhanced quality outcomes for acute care hospitals. Also, requires the Secretary to submit a plan to Congress by 2012 on how to move home health and nursing home providers into a value-based purchasing payment system.
Reducing Avoidable Hospital Readmissions. Directs CMS to track hospital readmission rates for certain high-volume or high-cost conditions and uses new financial incentives to encourage hospitals to undertake reforms needed to reduce preventable readmissions, which will improve care for beneficiaries and rein in unnecessary health care spending.
2013
Payments to Primary Care Physicians. Requires that Medicaid payment rates to primary care physicians for furnishing primary care services be no less than 100% of Medicare payment rates in 2013 and 2014. Provides 100% federal funding for the incremental costs to States of meeting this requirement.
Administrative Simplification. Health plans must adopt and implement uniform standards and business rules for the electronic exchange of health information to reduce paperwork and administrative burdens and costs.
Encouraging Provider Collaboration. Establishes a national pilot program on payment bundling to encourage hospitals, doctors, and post-acute care providers to work together to achieve savings for Medicare through increased collaboration and improved coordination of patient care.
Limiting Health Flexible Savings Account Contributions. Limits the amount of contributions to health FSAs to $2,500 per year, indexed by CPI for subsequent years.
Eliminating Deduction for Employer Part D Subsidy. Eliminates the deduction for the subsidy for employers who maintain prescription drug plans for their Medicare Part D eligible retirees.
Increased Threshold for Claiming Itemized Deduction for Medical Expenses. Increases the income threshold for claiming the itemized deduction for medical expenses from 7.5 to 10 percent. Individuals over 65 would be able to claim the itemized deduction for medical expenses at 7.5 percent of adjusted gross income through 2016.
Additional Hospital Insurance Tax for High Wage Workers. Increases the hospital insurance tax rate by 0.9 percentage points on an individual taxpayer earning over $200,000 ($250,000 for married filing jointly). Expands the taxable base to include net investment income in the case of taxpayers earning over $200,000 ($250,000 for joint returns).
PREPARED BY COMMITTEES ON WAYS & MEANS, ENERGY & COMMERCE, AND EDUCATION & LABOR, APRIL 2, 2010 6
Medical device excise tax. Establishes a 2.3 percent excise tax on the sale of a medical device by a manufacturer or importer. Exempted from the tax are eye glasses, contact lenses, hearing aids, and any device of a type that is generally purchased by the public at retail for individual use.
Limiting Executive Compensation. Limits the deductibility of executive compensation under Section 162(m) for insurance providers if at least 25 percent of the insurance provider’s gross premium income from health business is derived from health insurance plans that meet the minimum creditable coverage requirements. The deduction is limited to $500,000 per taxable year and applies to all officers, employees, directors, and other workers or service providers performing services, for or on behalf of, a covered health insurance provider. This provision is effective beginning in 2013 with respect to services performed after 2009.
Fee for patient-centered outcomes research. Annual fee becomes effective on insured and self-insured plans to fund the patient-centered outcomes research trust fund.
2014
Reforming Health Insurance Regulations. Implements strong health insurance reforms that prohibit insurance companies from engaging in discriminatory practices that enable them to refuse to sell or renew policies due to an individual’s health status. Health plans can no longer exclude coverage for treatments based on pre-existing health conditions. It also limits the ability of insurance companies to charge higher rates due to heath status, gender, or other factors. Premiums can vary only on age (no more than 3:1), geography, family size, and tobacco use.
Eliminating Annual Limits. Prohibits all employer plans and new plans in the individual market from imposing annual limits on the amount of coverage an individual may receive.
Ensuring Coverage for Individuals Participating in Clinical Trials. Prohibits new health plans from dropping coverage because an individual chooses to participate in a clinical trial and from denying coverage for routine care that they would otherwise provide just because an individual is enrolled in a clinical trial. Applies to all clinical trials that treat cancer or other life-threatening diseases.
Establishing Health Insurance Exchanges. Opens health insurance Exchanges in each State to individuals and small employers. This new venue will enable people to comparison shop for standardized health packages. It facilitates enrollment and administers tax credits so that people of all incomes can obtain affordable coverage.
Ensuring Choice through a Multi-State Option. Provides a choice of coverage through a multi-State plan, available from nationwide health plans under the supervision of the Office of Personnel Management.
Providing Health Care Tax Credits. Makes premium tax credits available through the Exchange to ensure people can obtain affordable coverage. Credits are available for people with incomes above Medicaid eligibility and below 400 percent of poverty who are not eligible for or offered other acceptable coverage. They apply to both premiums and cost-sharing to ensure that no family faces bankruptcy due to medical expenses again.
Ensuring Choice through Free Choice Vouchers. Workers who qualify for an affordability exemption to the individual responsibility policy but do not qualify for tax credits can take their employer contribution and join an Exchange plan.
PREPARED BY COMMITTEES ON WAYS & MEANS, ENERGY & COMMERCE, AND EDUCATION & LABOR, APRIL 2, 2010 7
Promoting Individual Responsibility. Requires most individuals to obtain acceptable health insurance coverage or pay a penalty of $95 for 2014, $325 for 2015, $695 for 2016 (or, up to 2.5 percent of income in 2016), up to a cap of the national average bronze plan premium. Families will pay half the amount for children, up to a cap of up to a cap of $2,250 per family. After 2016, dollar amounts are indexed. If affordable coverage is not available to an individual, they will not be penalized.
Promoting Employer Responsibility. Requires employers with 50 or more employees who do not offer coverage to their employees to pay $2,000 annually for each full-time employee over the first 30 as long as one of their employees receives a tax credit. Precludes waiting periods over 90 days. Requires employers who offer coverage but whose employees receive tax credits to pay $3,000 for each worker receiving a tax credit up to an aggregate cap of $2000 per full-time employee.
Increasing Access to Medicaid. Medicaid eligibility will increase to 133 percent of poverty for all non-elderly individuals to ensure that people obtain affordable health care in the most efficient and appropriate manner. States will receive increased federal funding to cover these new populations.
Small Business Tax Credit. Continues the second phase of the small business tax credit for qualified small employers.
Quality Reporting for Certain Providers. Places certain providers – including ambulatory surgical centers, long-term care hospitals, inpatient rehabilitation facilities, inpatient psychiatric facilities, PPS-exempt cancer hospitals and hospice providers – on a path toward value-based purchasing by requiring the Secretary to implement quality measure reporting programs in these areas and also pilot test value-based purchasing for each of these providers in subsequent years.
Health Insurance Provider Fee. Imposes an annual, non-deductible fee on the health insurance sector allocated across the industry according to market share. The fee does not apply to companies whose net premiums written are $25 million or less.
2015
Continuing Innovation and Lower Health Costs. Establishes an Independent Payment Advisory Board to develop and submit proposals to Congress and the private sector aimed at extending the solvency of Medicare, lowering health care costs, improving health outcomes for patients, promoting quality and efficiency, and expanding access to evidence-based care.
Paying Physicians Based on Value Not Volume. Creates a physician value-based payment program to promote increased quality of care for Medicare beneficiaries.
2018
Excise tax on high cost employer-provided health plans becomes effective. Tax is on the cost of coverage in excess of $27,500 (family coverage) and $10,200 (single coverage), increased to $30,950 (family) and $11,850 (single) for retirees and employees in high risk professions. The dollar thresholds are indexed with inflation, and employers with higher costs on account of the age or gender demographics of their employees may value their coverage using the age and gender demographics of a national risk pool.

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He just stopped fighting for it when he realized that a few senators from red states weren't willing to risk their careers for it.

Two main reasons.

We couldn't get enough votes for it

There was no way to include it and still make the bill a net deficit reduction, which would mean passing it through reconciliation isn't an option.

States that Obama didn't carry in the election (North Dakota, Arkansas, Louisiana) that happen to have democratic senators.

All of those people are hanging by a thread.

he will wear the dead and the destruction and the eventual failure and flight with our tail between our legs all the while waving the victory flag forever.

He could/should have done that. And I was hoping that the rest of the national security furor would become more sane, too -- not adding body x-ray machines in airports. :eyes:

Who else makes those decisions if not the commander-in-chief?

McChrystal and not Biden regarding Afghanistan (probably felt the Military knew best?), but Biden's had his finger on the pulse in that area of the world for years.

And they were saying "this money is to support the troops that are there!" But as we learned in Viet Nam, no $$$ and you can haul ass out of there.

But unlike Cheney who WANTED us in Iraq solely for oil, I don't think it's "all Obama" regarding the current situations. He's trying to do what's right and I think he's listening to the wrong people.

He doesn't have to wrangle any votes together. He doesn't have to compromise with anyone. He can listen to whomever he wants.

Congress gives Obama money because he's the President and he asked for it.

you, but I guess I'm cutting him some slack because of the enormous pressure. I think it was WRONG and it will be something he'll feel remorse over for the rest of his life, but yeah, it was his decision to make. And he'll have to live with that.

It just seemed to simple (to me) - Bush put us there, there's no reason to be there, so start bringing them home immediately. It never occurred to me that he would actually increase the activity.

There was the initial surge soon after he entered office that I fully expected and supported at that point. But the 2nd surge in December really has left me shaken. As DUer Tekisui put it, Obama has doubled down on a lost cause. We've reached the point where additional military resources aren't going to do the trick. Nearly every article or podcast I listen to just makes the situation feel more and more grim.

Now, the war is one thing. But the habeas corpus stuff, the rendition, etc. is really terrible. Those are some of the key reasons why I was really excited to work on the campaign of a former constitutional law professor. Now it really just feels like I was told what I wanted to hear.

candidates have no idea what they're really walking in to. And like any job, we're not aware of all that it actually entails until we're on the payroll. I even gave George HW Bush slack when, after having campaigned on "read my lips - no new taxes" he had to raise taxes and said "I had no idea how bad it really was".

I can use that reasoning for SOME of the things he hasn't done, but as to the ones you cite, I'm as baffled as you. But I don't think he was just saying what he thought would get him elected, I think he believed what he was saying was what he would do.

That's why I always like Biden - Ed had a snip of him on today's show of when he was on GMA while he was still running for President. He was saying something about what we needed to do to help middle America in the economy, because that's what he really felt what was needed. Ed said Biden was vilified for saying that stuff but look, that's exactly what we're attempting to do now. Biden also said there would never be a military solution in Iraq, and that Pakistan was yanking our chain. In other words, he said what he meant and you knew what he would do. I'm sorry that he's had to curtail his 'lay it all out there' ways since he's speaking for the administration now.

You have all of these ideas about opening things up and being that shining beacon on the hill. Then you are handed a stack of classified documents that tell you how dangerous the world really is. Now people's lives are really in your hands. What choice do you make?

That being said, how much of your values do you give up to ensure security?

It's difficult, and I don't want to minimize the pressures that he must be facing. Yet I can't help but feeling that we've become captured by fear and we've gotten farther off track than we need to be to actually be safe. If we don't lead by example, then how can we expect to anyone else to follow our lead?

You've been around DU long enough to have thought about all of that stuff, but those are the things that have caused me the most trouble.

you were giving up your values to ensure security -- I think your values would change, don't you?

I think the fear has become Who We Are as Americans - it's heartbreaking. Bushco and the Republicans were successful, and although Obama's not banging that drum, the Reps and the media are still fanning the flames.

The stomach-turning irony is that there wouldn't be this 'War on Terror' had Cheney and Rumsfeld not seized the 'opportunity of 9-11 to get their greedy hands on Iraq.

It astounds me what people will do to get more money and power. It's a game. it's an illness.

My guess is that after taking the oath of office, he now has a daily intelligence briefing and that side of his brain is kicking into high gear. I'm sure that his con law side is saying that we don't have evidence admissible in a trial to support keeping someone in prison. But then he talks to his national security advisers saying that we know that this person is linked to al-Qaeda. If we let them out, then they're going straight back to Yemen where they'll be plotting an attack on us.

That's a lot to balance for sure, but it just feels like the conversation is a little one sided these days. That being said, I'm glad that we have a president who probably does care about the legal and civil rights side of this debate. I'm sure that Bush/Cheney did not lose any sleep about putting some suspected terrorist behind bars no matter how flimsy the evidence.

posse) just decided what they wanted to do, and did it. Little obstacle like the Constitution? Change it. No WMD in Iraq, that beautiful land pregnant with oil? Change the facts. Honestly, I don't even know why they attempted to appear to go through the motions, they were going to get the end result they wanted regardless.

So yeah, we've got it FAR better now, and I firmly believe Obama CARES.

But back to the OP -- I just can't understand, even more NOW since the release of all those documents proving the war can't be 'won' -- we're continuing to fund it. Is it a pipeline? A newfound bonanza of lithium riches? Even so, they're not going to let us have any of it. I. Don't. Get. It. But as we've been discussing, we don't know what he does. Let's just hope it's over SOON.

with little or no help from his own party.

I certainly can't hang that one on the President.

But Obama owns it all now.

They went along with them.

Of course they will anyway.

Democrats have been called weak on defense ever since VietNam. It doesn't matter how much sense it makes--the uninitiated will believe anything that the right wing and their allies in the MSM ram down their throats. I think that Obama is afraid to pull out of the wars because it will give fodder for the right wing to call him weak.

for continuing this farce of a war. nt

Bush started the wars because he wanted to be a "war president," and Obama's keeping it going so that he looks tough on terrorism. And of course the war lobbyists and the military industrial complex are happy to keep pushing. There's not any "peace" voice in Washington. Without a draft, there's nothing to stop them.

to the your comment. nt

stay there, losing lives and money until the American people decide that enough was enough. We will pull out. That date might be in a year or a decade. But, regardless of when, nothing positive will have been accomplish.

Please, if anyone with any authority is reading this, let us get the Hell out of Afghanistan now.
It's the only sane thing to do.

I would add his reaction to the coup in Honduras as his other big mistake so far.

My best expectation for Afghanistan is that if we keep the pressure up he'll want to get out before the 2012 election. He's statements lately sound like he's lowering expectations for what we need to accomplish. That's good because it signals that he may leave by 2012 no matter what the situation is on the ground.

There have been some changes on the civil liberties issues, but he obviously promised more. I don't know what the holdup is.

You need to put your big kid britches on.

For some reason we tolerate Americans getting paid to spew hatred against Americans day in and day out - and corporations paying for it. Murdock and the Saudi Prince own Fox and pay millions to keep them pumping out the hate and suspicion and questioning every move this President makes...

Its no wonder the Afghanistan Al Quaeda and Taliban think they can out last us...

And despite all the hate and kibitzing... the simple fact remains....

Pakistan is a weak government, cannot protect itself from those that would use their nukes against the rest of the world.

Not sure that Iraq is strong enough to defend itself from terrorists that would use its oil to
fund more terrorism.

The nasty little cow boy that was all hat and no cattle has hot dogged just one time too many, altering the balance of powers in the world, and so far, the US is almost alone is worrying about it.
That includes the Saudies, Jordan, Egypt, and all arab nations who don't intend to lift a finger to quell terrorism on their own doorsteps.

I like this President. He is doing everything he said he would do as rapidly as he can, and you can see it day after day, its like trying to herd cats... but little by little, progress has been made despite everything the republicans and the Taliban, the Afghanistans, Al Quaeda, and Iraqis and Isreal and Palistine can throw at him.

I look at all the past and present republican members of Congress that moved in lock step to give George Bush everything he wanted, and those out in the boonies that spew had and doubt and accusations - the teabaggers who have shown themselves to be far from the quality of American that
met the adversity of the Great Depression and World Wars, and I know there is no one else out there
who would or could do his job even half as well.

Don't believe the polls either. Half the entire US did away with land lines, they use cells and wireless for their computers, and pollsters don't call them. I haven't seen a single republican or teabagger or birther or anyone else with a decent idea - all of them bleating about the constitution or debt or taxes like they don't understand who and what they are and think we'll give them another chance to push this country to the brink again.

This President does not need my forgiveness... he needs our support, he knew it would be tough, and rough, and he told us so...

............not like you've got any choices elsewhere.

It was Britney Spears' defense of George Bush in Fahrenheit 411.

Lack of other credible options doesn't mean that we shouldn't criticize the president. He might not need "forgiveness" but he sure does need my vote, my donations and my volunteerism in 2012.

And Bush era torture guidelines have been rescinded. We'll have to see whether the investigation is allowed to work its way up the ladder. Bush obvious intended it not to. In the long term, an investigation that slowly works its way up the chain of command will be more concrete (if that's the intention).