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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:16 PM
Original message
Time Magazine's cover this week.
It is graphic, and disturbing, and I will not repost it here. You can visit it http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007269,00.html">here, where it is small enough to look away or click if you want to see it larger.

But the editor's story about choosing is is also worth a read, I think. And I believe the decision to run it would be an excellent topic of discussion here.

Our cover image this week is powerful, shocking and disturbing. It is a portrait of Aisha, a shy 18-year-old Afghan woman who was sentenced by a Taliban commander to have her nose and ears cut off for fleeing her abusive in-laws. Aisha posed for the picture and says she wants the world to see the effect a Taliban resurgence would have on the women of Afghanistan, many of whom have flourished in the past few years. Her picture is accompanied by a powerful story by our own Aryn Baker on how Afghan women have embraced the freedoms that have come from the defeat of the Taliban — and how they fear a Taliban revival.

I thought long and hard about whether to put this image on the cover of TIME. First, I wanted to make sure of Aisha's safety and that she understood what it would mean to be on the cover. She knows that she will become a symbol of the price Afghan women have had to pay for the repressive ideology of the Taliban. We also confirmed that she is in a secret location protected by armed guards and sponsored by the NGO Women for Afghan Women. Aisha will head to the U.S. for reconstructive surgery sponsored by the Grossman Burn Foundation, a humanitarian organization in California. We are supporting that effort.

(snip)

The much publicized release of classified documents by WikiLeaks has already ratcheted up the debate about the war. Our story and the haunting cover image by the distinguished South African photographer Jodi Bieber are meant to contribute to that debate. We do not run this story or show this image either in support of the U.S. war effort or in opposition to it. We do it to illuminate what is actually happening on the ground. As lawmakers and citizens begin to sort through the information about the war and make up their minds, our job is to provide context and perspective on one of the most difficult foreign policy issues of our time. What you see in these pictures and our story is something that you cannot find in those 91,000 documents: a combination of emotional truth and insight into the way life is lived in that difficult land and the consequences of the important decisions that lie ahead.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007269,00.html#ixzz0v5max1i8


"Emotional truth and insight." Is that sincere? Or is it another way to talk about propaganda?

Put another way: is Time attempting to offer "balance" where none is needed?
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. There are plenty of other atrocities you can find around the world...
However, in most cases those atrocities are not used to justify wars of aggression. In fact, in most cases no one gives a shit.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
92. Bingo - Sierra Leone comes to mind
Plenty of places in Africa where atrocities are going on, and we don't get involved. Hell, we let genocide happen in Rwanda and Darfur without lifting a finger to help.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. Taliban are Afghans
It is important to realize that the Taliban basically aren't an invading force (as we are) but a relatively indigeous group of people attempting to gain power. It is in essence one component of a civil war. As much as we might not want the Taliban in charge, the only people who can stop that are the Afghans themselves. We no more belong there than we do between the Hezbollah and Hamas.

Run the photo, don't run the photo, I can only care so much. But that photo has little if anything to do with whether or not we are there.
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bluethruandthru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
44. +10000000
I feel terrible for women who have to live under the thumb of the Taliban...but it isn't a problem we can fix with bombs. The Afghan people have to decide who they want to lead their country.
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
95. I don't have a problem with posting the image. And neither should you
"Graphic and disturbing?" WAR is graphic and disturbing. And lest we forget, a majority of Democrats -- and a significant minority of DUers -- no longer seem to have much qualms about our continued indefinite presence in IRAQ, they've just decided to "move on to the next topic" like we can't walk and chew gum at the same time. What, no reparations? No reconstruction of the Iraqi National Museum? Of the wetlands that were destroyed by our "ally" Saddam? Of this woman's nose? Slashed off on OUR watch?



To quote this other thread, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x551267
'''This isn’t the picture of some as-yet-unrealized nightmarish future for Afghan women. It’s the picture of the present.'''
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-01-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. And Pakistan should also pay
Edited on Sun Aug-01-10 01:11 AM by Leopolds Ghost
To help her and all other victims of violence from the Taliban who they funded,

just like the US used to fund certain other terror groups in Afghanistan.
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soleft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. The title that accompanies the pic leans toward Propaganda
"This is What Happens if We Leave"
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. This was my thought as well. nt
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Didn't this happen while we were there?
Or is Time saying that question is not supposed to be asked? Also, how does our military occupation of Afghanistan "solve" this problem? Is there anything else we could have possibly done that might have ameliorated this situation without spending all that money, costing all those lives, and engendering all this animosity?
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. it probably did
considering we have been there for 9 years.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. +4,000 n/t
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. I had the same question.
Also, why are we still working under the assumption that we are in these countries to free people from oppression?

Wasn't that Bush's excuse for staying after the original reasons were shown to be lies?
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Sounds suspiciously like nation building, as well
And as Time and so many other media outlets solemnly informed us on orders from their Republican masters, "nation building" was a hippy-dippy exercise in futility and rainbow chasing. He-man foreign policy suitable to the United States was grounded in the solid reality that our military could overcome a noun of dubious precision (i.e. "terrorism").
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Chef Eric Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #11
74. Stop distracting us with logical, relevant questions!
All we need to know is this: WE are the good guys, and we if WE leave, the EVILDOERS will do EVIL things.

:sarcasm:
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Agreed...one photoo versus thousands of documents...and the editor
does note that the Taliban has grown in the past few years...please note that we've been there for the past few years.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. "leans toward"?
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LargeGreenSpider Donating Member (130 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. Exactly
This is a bullshit cover designed to make people want to stay there. Bullshit.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. Agreed.
The picture could be the start of an open, honest debate about whether or not the US should be the world's policeman, but with that caption? Fuggedaboutit.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
45. Yeah, unfortunately.
I wonder how far the media will go to propagate the lie that "we need to stay until we win".

Back in 1971, the propaganda was hot and heavy and everyone in the MSM was involved with promoting the Vietnam War.

Except for Walter.
And we don't have a Walter this go-around.
Unfortunately.
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #3
55. + 1,000
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 05:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
76. ABSOLUTELY!
I never type a subject line in all caps but this just SCREAMS propaganda. I hate this shit.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #3
78. "Do what we say, and no one gets hurt." -- the M$M and the MIC
nt
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metapunditedgy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
91. Next week: A child killed accidentally by our troops. "What happens if we stay in Afghanistan?"
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 01:24 AM by metapunditedgy
On edit:

That would be about the same level of propaganda, IMO.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
4. Have they featured limbless children from US bombs yet?
Then that would be "balance"
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arcane1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:32 PM
Original message
Well-said! n/t
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. on the cover of Time?
no way
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. +1
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's a valid cover, but I don't remember
Time putting graphic images of civilian casualties caused by US troops on the cover. I'm not a regular reader so maybe I missed it. A side by side picture of both would have brought balance to the debate.
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walldude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. Jesus.. that reeks of propaganda...
And if that is what will happen if we leave Afghanistan then we take all the women who want to leave with us. I bet it would cost no more than a few days of "war funding" to cover the costs of relocation.
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. For every Afghan news story of a woman or child being mutilated
or abused, I can retrieve a news story from the United States equally disturbing. The U.S. is in no position to dictate what is humane until we start solving
the violence in our own culture.

"During 1950-1993, the overall annual death rate for U.S. children aged less than 15 years declined substantially (1), primarily reflecting decreases in deaths associated with unintentional injuries, pneumonia, influenza, cancer, and congenital anomalies. However, during the same period, childhood homicide rates tripled, and suicide rates quadrupled (2). In 1994, among children aged 1-4 years, homicide was the fourth leading cause of death; among children aged 5-14 years, homicide was the third leading cause of death, and suicide was the sixth (3). To compare patterns and the impact of violent deaths among children in the United States and other industrialized countries, CDC analyzed data on childhood homicide, suicide, and firearm-related death in the United States and 25 other industrialized countries for the most recent year for which data were available in each country (4). This report presents the findings of this analysis, which indicate that the United States has the highest rates of childhood homicide, suicide, and firearm-related death among industrialized countries."

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046149.htm
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
61. but is it the American government responsible for those deaths
does the government send in a hit squad or whatever you want to call these Taliban assholes to kill American kids?

the Taliban is the government in these areas and they enforce their own fucked up laws

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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. No, not directly, but indirectly yes.. How many of those deaths
can be traced back to poverty, ignorance, societal pressures and situations
kids should never be exposed to. Our government has a responsibility to
protect the most vulnerable and in that regard we fail miserably. I'm not
referring to a Nanny State, but access to better education, healthcare, family
resources and support. Families and especially children are in crisis and all
our resources are going to illegal occupations thousands of miles away.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. our government does have a duty
and overall, it does a pretty decent job

and no, not all of our resources are going overseas

if you cut the hyperbole down a bit, you wouldn't sound so reactionary

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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. A mere eighteen months past eight disastrous years of the bush/cheney
regime and you consider the mess of a government they left behind as doing "a pretty decent job."
That would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic. 22% of American children live in poverty but by
your standards that's an acceptable statistic.

$1 Trillion to date and several thousand American lives is a significant amount of resources.

You stick with the insulting personal comments, you've got nothing else to justify the failed occupation
of Afghanistan.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #70
80. insulting?
reactionary isn't insulting

if I didn't want my post pulled, I'd really say what I think

the government on all levels is doing a pretty decent job despite the best efforts of the current administration

that 22% could be much higher

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Lance_Boyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. Gee, I guess we can't pull out now.
Look America! Something bad is happening somewhere in the world! Send money and blood, stat!

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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
56. unless it's happening within our own country, where the free market fixes all problems.
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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
10. That's just flat out irresponsible--smacks of propaganda. Blatant at that. n/t
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. Thanks.
K & R :thumbsup:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. with TIME, it's all about selling and promoting the conservative agenda
. . . and misrepresenting the left.

This looks designed to generate support for continuing in Afghanistan, but it's dishonest. Our military effort there is supposed to be in defense of our own national security against al-Qaeda (as the President reiterated this week), not against Taliban abuses toward women. They, as others have, are attempting to change the subject of our military involvement there. You wouldn't get anywhere near a majority of Congress to support the current level of deployment there in defense of Afghan women from the Taliban.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
46. Very good points n/t
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jgraz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
15. Here's the atrocity picture they should have published


Just one of Erik Prince's mansions, paid for with our blood and treasure.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. +01
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
83. Or one of these
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
16. Ah... so thats why all the bombing, killing and maiming
of Afghani people including women and children is ongoing... its not a senseless occupation, its a feminist mission! I feel so much better now.

/sarcasm

I do feel bad for the young woman and any others abused like that but can only hope that too many here don't fall for the propaganda.
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mike r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
19. See, it's a good war.
Gotta protect everyone everywhere at all times.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
22. I really hate when they use these horror stories
to try to emotionally manipulate people.

I could and probably will write at least one story of an Iraqi woman named Noor who was raped and tortured in Abu Ghraib, by the U.S. Her story was reported before the photos emerged as she had managed to slip notes out of the prison begging her 'brothers' to blow it up as she and others there did not want to live.

Independent reporters tried to verify the story, lawyers in Iraq tried to get into the prison to see her, but were refused.

At that time when I first saw the story, I did not believe our side would do such horrific things even though I opposed the war. However, after the photos were released (thank you to the whistle-blower who did so) many months later, it was verified airc, that Noor's story was in fact true. People tried to find her but her family had moved and we never heard any more about her.

I would like Time to write about the women who have been abused by our side. Because that is something we can stop.

Only a few weeks ago two Afghan women were killed, bullets removed from their bodies to cover up the facts, now verified by the released documents, that NATO forces are killing thousands of civilians.

I don't know the answer for Afghanistan, but we are not it, that's for sure. We have tortured their citizens and I won't repeat some of the horror stories here, but this kind of propaganda, using people like this poor woman when we are as responsible for unspeakable acts over there, just makes me angry.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
23. Gandhi..
“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy.” - Gandhi

Whether it's done by religious fanatics or "civilized" artillery or drones, the result is the same.

I'm opposed to both and that's why I'm opposed to this phony and lost war fought for PR.
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Ignis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. +1, thanks for posting that.
:thumbsup:
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
24. I am glad to see photos in the public eye. This will happen more if we leave, when we leave
But more of the same will not prevent this. The first 6 yrs in Afghanistan were wasted, were when more radical positive change could happen but nooooo. Afghanistan was the poor step-child war.

Looking back, it is easy to see and say they fucked up. Deciding what to do now is more difficult. It is true that women will be severely repressed and punished when/if the USA leaves. I do not have an answer of how to be able to get enough Afghanis to pull together rather than deteriorate further into tribal wars that imperil many, when the stabilizing influence of the Taliban is looked up by many as a more positive though intensely negative thing.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. I applaud Time for putting that picture on the cover. I also think the girl is still very beautiful.
I hope some rich American will pay to find her, bring her here, and have reconstructive surgery done.
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Ugh. Who cares if she is "still very beautiful" when she has been so horribly
abused? Would it matter less if she were ugly?
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Wow, sure wouldn't want you around to help somebody's self esteem!
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uncommon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. That wasn't the point. The point is that it isn't relevant. A woman who has been treated that way
would benefit more from being told again and again that she is a human being and worthy of dignity and respect because of that fact.

The fact that the world is so focused on a woman's appearance in the first place can only make this worse for her.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
26. The hawks are desparate at this point
Recall in January there was a "new," campaign ramped up to take out the Taliban by MacChrystal?

Remember the assaults on Marja? Remember the pullout in frustration from the Korengal Valley after years?

Remember the plans to assault Kandahar region and root out the Taliban?

Remember MacChrystal's self-implosion?

Remember the retooling of this and the delay now in implementing the plan to assault Kandahar?

Now, the release of data showing the incompetence and disingenuousness of our prosecution of this "war?"


Methinks the hawks are pulling out all the stops to not appear to again lose a misguided attempt to bend populations in a foreign nation to our will. That is why their propaganda organs like Time are now attempting to appeal to compassion. Where was that compassion while we were bombing civilians?



http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-librar...

KABUL: Afghan President Hamid Karzai said Monday that Nato troops fired a rocket that killed “52 innocent civilians” in southern Afghanistan.

An investigation by the National Directorate of Security found that a house in Helmand province's Sangin district was hit on Friday “by a rocket launched by Nato/ISAF troops, leaving 52 civilians dead, including women and children,”a statement from Karzai's office said.

“The president condoled via phone with the mourning families and called on Nato troops to put into practice every possible measure to avoid harming civilians during military operations,” it said. -AFP




Hands off my Social Security!
Hands off Latin America!


Just my dos centavos


robdogbucky
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
34. The New Afghan Justice: Smaller Rocks at Stonings
http://www.nypress.com/article-5377-the-new-afghan-justice-smaller-rocks-at-stonings-black-hawk-bilge-hitchens-reminds-me-of-lunchtime-obooze.html

Tuesday, January 22,2002

Stone Him! (But Lightly)

The disjuncture these days between reality and what one reads in the press here is pretty much absolute. The other day I opened up the San Francisco Chronicle and found a piece hailing what the writer described as something most unusual for Afghanistan, a "peaceful" transfer of power. Now granted, the mostly civilian casualties are probably in the low thousands, and the most effective agent in that same transference of power was large cash bribes to all the relevant warlords, but even so, the word "peaceful" is scarcely the mot juste. Similarly, the press is mostly full of glowing descriptions of the new social order now prevailing in Kabul. Nonetheless one can find reports that suggest that the pace of change may be leisurely.

Shortly before the turn of the year Justice Minister Karimi declared Afghanistan’s new government would still impose Sharia Islamic law on its people, but with less harshness. The details were fleshed out by Judge Ahamat Ullha Zarif, who told the French news agency Agence France Presse that public executions and amputations will continue, but there will be changes: "For example, the Taliban used to hang the victim’s body in public for four days. We will only hang the body for a short time, say 15 minutes." Very Warholian.

Kabul’s sports stadium, financed by the International Monetary Fund, was where the Taliban used to carry out public executions and amputations every Friday. No longer. "The stadium is for sports. We will find a new place for public executions," says Judge Zarif.

Judge Zarif makes it clear that the ultimate penalty will remain in force for adulterers, both male and female. They would still be stoned to death, Zarif told the French news agency, "but we will use only small stones."

Now there’s progress!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
35. Gotta sell that war!
What bullcrap - the claim that they're not trying to take sides. What utter crap.

As others have already stated, they're choosing to ignore a hell of a lot in order to catapult that BS.
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Alameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
39. P R O P A G A N D A
geee...it's really disgusting. Now we are supposed to get all fired up and what? send more troops...money?
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #39
77. +1
sick sick play on your humanity propaganda - fuck you time magazine!
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truebrit71 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
40. Pure propaganda, and you know what? It works..
..it makes my blood boil, and it makes me want to eliminate every single one of the those mad-as-hatters inbred theocratic simpletons so that it can't happen again..and then I remember some of the stuff spewed by the fanatical god-botherers over here and realize that they are just as bad and we as a race are fucked beyond belief...We truly are destined to destroy ourselves..
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Carnage251 Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
41. Do you'll think they're gonna put a picture of the POW Bowe Bergdahl on the cover
or a picture dead civilians, wounded soldiers, how much money were spending there, or the USSR victory?
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Citizen Worker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
42. Has Time magzine ran any stories on the use of uranium munitions?
The kind of ordnance that has caused untold thousands of cancers and will lead to genetic deformations for generations to come. Not only are the Afghan people affected by this obscene and illegal ordnance but so are the military personnel who come in contact with this vile stuff. How far will the winds carry this radioactive dust? Around the globe, perhaps? Has Time magazine done any stories about this?
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
43. Somehow this still happens in Pakistan despite their 'status' as an 'ally'
We are not going to change the culture.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
47. Two points: One, the Taliban are massive fucking assholes, and I don't care what anyone says
Edited on Thu Jul-29-10 02:30 PM by Warren DeMontague
that country WILL SUFFER if they are back in charge of it.

Two, Unfortunately, I'm not convinced a continued military engagement from us is more productive than counter-productive. Given that, and the total lack of any sort of popular, legitimate gov't institutions in Afghanistan that we CAN work towards supporting (the Karzai mess being corrupt and less than useless, etc. etc.) I don't know -what- the answer is.

I suspect we'll have to leave, and odds are, the Taliban will end up in control of the country. But I'm certainly not going to refrain from calling them what they are, backwards-ass fundamentalist shitheads, thugs, and barbarians.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. but Americans are still worse
:sarcasm:

I'd love to see some of the people who have posted in this thread give up their lives in the US and spend some time in Afghanistan, especially in areas controlled by the Taliban

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #62
72. Our "allies" in Afghanistan are no better
Slightly less puritanical and a lot more corrupt. The US has no problem whatsoever backing fundie whackjobs in pursuit of American corporate inetersts. We backed the Mullahs in Iran to overthrow their democratic secular government in 1954. We paid for the Pakistani ISI to create the Taliban in the first place.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A3401-2001Nov22?language=printer

Four years ago at a luxury Houston hotel, oil company adviser Zalmay Khalilzad was chatting pleasantly over dinner with leaders of Afghanistan's Taliban regime about their shared enthusiasm for a proposed multibillion-dollar pipeline deal.

Today, Khalilzad works steps from the White House, helping President Bush and his closest advisers in attempts to annihilate those same Afghan officials.

His evolving views are evident in a long string of journal articles, position papers and newspaper columns.

"The Taliban does not practice the anti-U.S. style of fundamentalism practiced by Iran," Khalilzad wrote four years ago in The Washington Post. "We should . . . be willing to offer recognition and humanitarian assistance and to promote international economic reconstruction. . . . It is time for the United States to reengage" the Taliban.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #72
81. I don't see the current government killing people for the fun of it
like the Taliban

there's no comparison between the two

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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #81
89. self-delete
Edited on Fri Jul-30-10 08:41 PM by OnyxCollie
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #81
90. The warlords that the Taliban displaced in the 90s are the same people in the Karzai government
The Taliban wouldn't exist if we hadn't created them and propped them up. And our armed forces kill plenty of people, whose survivors probably don't see the distinction between "fun" and "collateral damage."
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #47
88. Of course you are right, but decades of war made them
and we have little to offer it seems but more decades of war. Who runs Afghanistan if the majority there are twisted bastards? At some point you just start carpet bombing - as we did in North Vietnam...and then you have to leave anyway.

About the only thing we could offer the girl in the picture is a visa, and she'd probably just get the crap beat out of her here for having an accent and being the wrong color.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
49. If there were a God, he would create a genitalia eating bacteria that
would selectively eat away the manhood of every male who could do such a thing to a defenseless woman.
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
50. Recall the Wikileaks CIA document re: utilising the plight of Afghan women ?
The first thing I thought of was the Wikileak CIA document which recommended keeping the plight of Afghani women in the media in order to maintain support for the war from European and American women.

My heart goes out to the women who are abused. But we can't govern that nation. Ultimately the women raise their children. And if the men are beastly, how can us warring against them change that?
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. Yes, I thought of that also. Propaganda
Maybe if we had gone to Afghanistan to help the people there, things would be different. But as the women of Afghanistan themselves have said, the U.S. is not 'interested in talking to Democratic voices' there. They ARE there, but we are supporting the brutal War Lords, guilty of as much, if not more abuse of women than the Taliban.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
51. Uh, you think Time wants this war to go on? It's a possibility. Yep.
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
52. The Taliban must be destroyed.
They are enemies of mankind.
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another saigon Donating Member (450 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
53. what about Egypt? Syria? Uzbekistan, etc. etc.....
all with their own versions of extreme torture or death for actions judged immoral? Can we please stop judging the whole fucking world and clean up our own nasty mess here in the US?

The article is completely transparent MIC propaganda.
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Simple Minds Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #53
60. Purpose of comparo?
So, would you be in favor of action against those countries?
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Fla_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
54. It's just bears being bears
It's just bears being bears, oops, sorry, wrong thread. It's just the Taliban being the Taliban. :smoke:
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democrat2thecore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
57. With the TIME logic, I can think of about 15 other countries we need to invade -nt
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Starting with Nebraska.
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
64. She was sentenced by a Taliban court, not a Taliban commander
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Ross K Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
65. Women are being raped, abused, disfigured and killed HERE!
I'm not unsympathetic to Aisha's plight, but, as has been pointed out in this thread, Afghanistan holds no monopoly on horror.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
67. American governments care about Afghan women only when it's useful for
propaganda purposes.

The U.S. egged on the Islamic fanatics who were fighting the Marxist government there SIX MONTHS before the Soviet tanks rolled in.

If the U.S. government had let the Marxists take over, Afghan women would be unveiled and literate today. (This is judging from what happened in the Soviet Central Asia Republics.) Yes, people, there are worse things than Communism.

We never heard about the plight of Afghan women while the mujahedin were "glorious freedom fighters."

We never heard about the plight of Afghan women in the early 1990s, when our CIA actually selected the Taliban to be the dominant force in Afghanistan (they were the best organized faction). All through the 1990s, feminists and the "far left" tried to call attention to the cruelties of the Taliban, but the MSM paid no attention, until 9/11.

Then the Bush administration trotted out stories of Taliban atrocities until the invasion. Once U.S. troops were on the ground, we were told that the women of Afghanistan would be fine now.

Oops, guess again. Some of our "allies" were just as reactionary as the Taliban.

Now that public opinion is turning against the war, the MSM are bringing out the atrocity stories again. I'm not saying that the stories are untrue. But the cynical use of these stories is sickening.
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AlabamaLibrul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
68. The headline of "What Happens If We Leave Afghanistan" next to this picture
Is absolute bullshit. Like we're not there, uh, now?

This is what happens IN Afghanistan. And it's not America's business to interfere in crazy-ass theocracies stuck in the Middle Ages.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-29-10 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
69. Why don't we invade Saudi Arabia with it's Chop-Chop Square
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 04:31 AM
Response to Original message
71. Yes. it is terrible. Let's save her from that fate by blowing up her house with her in it
:sarcasm:
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
73. This is why I fucking hate bush so bad...
Edited on Fri Jul-30-10 04:48 AM by cynatnite
Well, there are plenty of others...

All our focus was on this country right after 9/11. The Taliban was practically no more and the country had suffered so much under a theocratic rule which we were partly to blame for after the Russians pulled out. I still remember the videos of women being murdered in a soccer stadium.

Bush turned his attention to Iraq and then Afghanistan fell apart. The Taliban came back because nobody cared enough to do the job.

Now, we're losing this war and this woman is just a small example of what will happen should we pull out. It'll be just like it was before and the US will be fully to blame and rightly so. We will be responsible for every atrocity such as this.

Even worse, the situation in Afghanistan is so bad and so many people are dying that we may not have a choice but to pull out. As much as I loathe leaving, this may be the only option we have.

This girl's face is not propaganda to me. It's a girl who has suffered an atrocity by theocrats who hate women. I wish we could make war on these bastards, but sadly we can't right every wrong in the world.

But let us not forget...this is the one of the prices that will be paid if we leave. There is no getting around that fact. There is also no getting around the fact that this did NOT have to happen. This girl's face could have been saved had the job been done right the first time.

I don't call it Obama's War like some here do. It's Bush's failure as far as I'm concerned. This war was not winnable when Obama took office.
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slay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 05:16 AM
Response to Original message
75. The picture IS powerful. However it's being used as propaganda to prop up an unjust, unwinnable war
Fuck you Time Magazine. Fuckkkkk Youuuuu!
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Ross K Donating Member (288 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
79. K&R
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
82. No woman is ever disfigured by misogynist violence in 'Murika


Never, ever.



Let's face it. We laughed at the Soviets for blowing their wad there. Who are the laughing stocks now?

Oh, wait. We haven't completely collapsed our nation YET with our nation-building....just give it time and a few more military contracts.


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Love Bug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
84. Like the US gave a shit about Afghan women before 9/11
Women's rights groups tried in vain to get our government's attention regarding the plight of women in Afghanistan for years before 9/11. Now we use those abused women as a ploy to emotionally manipulate us into continued support of a useless war in Afghanistan.

Y'know, we really need a "cynicism" smilie.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
85. Time needs to do an article on the victims of our aggression
Here are some excellent graphic pictures for balance and sincerity.

http://prisonerofjoy.blogspot.com/2008/11/victims-of-uranium-weapons-used-by.html
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
86. Why not show the $1 trillion in mineral deposits
that will be left behind if we pull out of Afghanistan?

I guess a picture of lithium doesn't have the same impact.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-30-10 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
87. Cause and effect is a tricky thing
the Taliban are the creation of two generations of almost uninterrupted war. All we are really doing now is making that three generations.
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
93. Looks like the mineral deposit story
did not generate enough support for the war.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-31-10 02:30 AM
Response to Original message
94. Judging by your past posts along these lines
Edited on Sat Jul-31-10 02:30 AM by spoony
I'm not ENTIRELY convinced by the "fair and balanced" bit tacked on at the end. I guess that's your end-run around mods making controversial posts, huh? Emotional blackmail in the support of imperialism is evil. Flat. Out. Fucking. Evil.
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