I'm torn on this "Brokeback Mountain" thing

On the one hand, it really isn't appropriate for twelve-year-olds to watch spontaneously without parental permission; on the other hand, every quote from the complainers makes them sound like bigger assholes. Part of me wants to suggest just shutting them all up; then I realize that's the most Republicatastic perspective possible.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

some dumbass teacher who showed Brokeback Mountain to the class she was subbing for.

I hate it when teachers show movies in class, period. It's just pure laziness.

times when a movie gets the point of an issue across far better than any other medium.

For example: My junior English class read Arthur Miller's THE CRUCIBLE. When we finally finished it, we watched the movie version with Wynnona Ryder to see what it actually looked like (and to be honest to show the kids just how compelling the play was when done with passion rather than the lack luster "do I really have to read this" voices of the students).

Then, to give a more historically accurate picture of the Salem Witch Trials, I showed them THREE SOVEREIGNS FOR SARAH, an excellent mini series done by PBS about the trials. This movie gave the students a much better undertanding of the the horror of neighbor turning against neighbor for gain using religion as their tool than anything I could ever have told them.

And watching those two videos after reading the play led to some good discussions on the similarities between the actual events of the 1692 Witch Hunts and the 1950's McCarthy Witch (oops)... I mean Communist Hunts.

Movies were used to great effect in a post graduate course on multiculturalism I took. The proffessor showed ONCE UPON A TIME WHEN WE WERE COLORED which struck such a chord with me that I insisted that my family also watch it. I highly reccommend it. Also shown was SMOKE SIGNALS (it was a scream, but well worth watching) and a documentary by the SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER.

When used correctly, videos/movies/DVDs are a great resource for teachers to use in engaging the interest of the students and demonstrating other cultures and points of view.

the use of some outdoor scenes diluted it.

It would have been more claustrophobic and disoriented if it all stayed in those small, dark cabins.

I have taught elementary school for 33 years (I retired after 32 years last July, but am currently employed in a long-term substitute position). A movie is often a perfect culminating activity for a novel unit. Students can compare and contrast the movie with the actual novel which encourages the development of a variety of higher order thinking skills.

:shrug:

:rofl:

it's rated NC-17 and the class audience could not have seen it without parental allowance.

A bad judgement mistake by the teacher for sure.

Violence? Murder? Explicit sex scenes? :shrug:

This country still has problems with that, so it's not smart to show that to 12 yr olds without parental consent.

Are you saying this was no worse than "The Princes Bride" except for the two men thing? :shrug:

without any parental consent knowing how the cultural climate is in this country.

I wouldn't want a teacher to decide for me what R-rated movies my 11- or 12-year-old child is ready and equipped to handle.

I wouldn't have wanted my oldest daughter to see Brokeback Mountain when she was 12, but not because it's the story of two gay men. She was quite oversensitive to tragic and sad themes and would have been a basket case for days after watching such a sad story.

Prior notification and a parental permission slip would be the appropriate steps to take before showing any R-rated film to elementary school kids.

rated higher than PG without parental consent. In fact, I'm not sure that we are allowed to show PG videos without consent.

Do you know how few movies there are out there rated G? They ain't many other than THOMAS THE TANK ENGINE and cartoons...

on edit: And that prohibition goes all the way up to seniors in high school, some of whom are eighteen years old.

PG or PG-13 in school, parents are required to first sign a permission slip. District policy. No exceptions. R rated movies are not shown at all.

She's extremely sensitive and doesn't handle scenes in R rated movies well at all. Especially violent ones.

And, I don't expect her to be any less sensitive when she is 12.

if twelve year olds can get abortions without parental consent, they can watch brokeback mountain. What is the problem. it is a good movie. we know this is an anti gay thing. this wouldnt be in the news if it was SCREAM

it's just an adult movie, with adult themes, adult language, adult situations. If one of the cowboys were a cowgirl, it would still be rated R.

which alone could have gotten an R rating.

Everybody referring to them as cowboys. No self respecting cowboy would go near sheep, them boys were sheepherders.

without parental permission.

it was WRONG to have shown it to them.

The poor 12 year old must be made out of cake, she is "undergoing psychiatric counseling".

While a rated R movie shouldn't be shown to kids, it's even more absurd for the amount of money they are seeking for "emotional damages"

:rofl:

While I adore BBM and it is one of my favorites, why was it shown in class? This makes no sense to me.

However, that being said, yes, the comments from the family do sound bigoted.

http://imdb.com/news/wenn/2007-05-14
"... Turner's grandfather Kenneth Richardson, who complained to school heads in 2005 over profanities in educational reading literature, says, "The teacher knew she was not supposed to do this. It is very important to me that my children not be exposed to this. This was the last straw. I feel the lawsuit was necessary because of the warning I had already given them on the literature they were giving out to children to read. I told them it was against our faith."

Ten bucks says it was something like "To Kill a Mockingbird" or "Catcher in the Rye", where the fundies completely ignore the context and/or significance.

are not mutually exclusive. The teacher was an idiot to show and R rated movie to 12 year olds without parental permission. Doesn't matter if it was Brokeback Mountain, Silence of the Lambs or 7 Heads in a Duffle Bag.

The parents may be dickheads but they didn't start this.

Mz Pip
:dem:

I've seen "Brokeback Mountain," and I think it's too mature for 12-year olds. It has nothing to do with it being about homosexual attraction and everything to do with very adult sexuality, attraction, etc.

watch all sorts of violent movies that usually contain heterosexual sexual scenes. That's not the problem here.

Had Brokeback Mt. been a story about a cowboy and his girlfriend, this wouldn't even be in the news. That's the society we live in.

And he showed his woman the back of his hand when she started overestimating her worth.

straight sex, not just the gay sex.

And this girl is being raised by her grandparents. How many grandparents do you think would favor showing 12 year old girls violent movies with sex scenes?

But a school should not be showing a rated R movie without parental approval.

It's just the frank sexual nature in general shown to kids who are just discovering their hormones.

I'm not conflicted at all. The teacher was an idiot.

I love that movie, but it's entirely inappropriate to show ANY R-rated film to a class of 12-year olds.

It doesn't have to do with homosexuality in my opinion.


R rated movies have no business being shown in public schools.




With that said, I have no doubt the family bringing the lawsuit is homophobic. I hope they don't get a penny from the tax payers.


I do think the teacher (or sub) should be fired.


YOU DON'T SHOW R RATED MOVIES IN SCHOOL. PERIOD.

Most high school juniors and seniors are of age anyway.

1) Sub wrong for showing film

2) Parents wrong for suing

Nobody's right when everybody's wrong.

As the mom of a 13 year old, I don't want her watching a movie with so many adult themes and scenes unless I'm right there with her. She's seen a good few PG-13 movies (the whole Ring trilogy, The Illusionist, etc, etc.) with me and there's always plenty to discuss. The hard part is getting her to wait until *after* we leave the theatre!

The Parents, however, are utter morans...like the guy who is suing a library system because his boys *accidentally* got hold of some lesbian literature while looking for military recruiting info (doncha hate it when that happens? -- snarky, snarky). Do they sue a dog owner when a mutt humps their leg? Do they protect their innocent darlings from nature programs too? Sex -- of all kinds -- is everywhere. Even in the dear old Victorian days, horses were doing it in the fields...birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it....

If they don't know how to handle today's sexuality with honesty and openness, you can bet that's one family that will see a pregnant daughter at age 15. And if their 'faith' is so weak that a harsh word or a sexy scene can bruise it, it's time to find another one.

...not without parental permission. I've shown kids much 'worse' movies and Brokeback Mountain touches on a lot of less than comfortable issues (extramarital affairs, death, hate, depression, homosexuality, hetrosexuality). I probably wouldn't have shown a 12 year old that movie unless I felt they were mature for their age.

Really this is a movie parential descretion is required.

Hell, it sounds like the set up for one of Jack Chick's stereotypical over the top depictions of evil homosexuals and evil secularist teachers in his tracts.

I'm not saying it wasn't just pure idiocy or some lame attempt at teaching tolerance or both, but I am staying on the fence with this one until the real details come out.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out this was an attempt to fuel the fires of anti-gay sentiment to make reactionaries go "OMG! This proves what the right wing has been saying all along that radical homosexuals are trying to indoctrinate our children!"

Another possibility is that this was an elaborate money grab plot.

Or the possibility that the story is just not entirely accurate and there really wasn't a showing of Brokeback Mountain (maybe it was a just clip shown as part of a different recorded show). Lord knows, everyone and their brother was going around saying "I wish I could quit you" (although that was not exactly the line used in the movie) and I can think of a half different shows I saw that clip on.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-ap-il-brokebacklawsuit,1,5858449.story?coll=chi-news-hed

A couple things I noticed:

The girl is being raised by her grandparents -- a generation that could still be shocked by an R-rated movie. (They didn't grow up with them.)

Also, they have complained to the school in the past about the girl being exposed to "curse words" in her reading materials. So maybe this seemed to them like the last straw.

a.) If what bothers the parents is the gay part...fuck them.

b.) That said, it's inappropriate to show "R" rated films to kids without the consent of an adult who knows whether they can handle it or not.

I run some Yahoo Groups for SciFi/Fantasy/Horror and I have some parents who have watched adult stuff with their kids since the kids were little and the kids are fine and I have one parent who's 12 year old gets nightmares watching Buffy. Kids are not all alike. This teacher should have consulted the parents first.
Lee

complained about her being exposed to "curse words" in her readings at school. So they're consistently conservative.

I bet they would have been unhappy with any R-rated movie with any sex scenes being shown in school.

I would, too. My kids have never been shown an R-rated at school movie without my permission, and even those times they were in high school, and the movie had something to do with the curriculum (e.g., Romeo and Juliet being shown after they read the play.)

I agree...<g> I just had to have my aside about homophobia...

I think it was totally inappropriate. Some kids can handle stuff and some kids can't. The teacher should have consulted and gotten the permission of the grown-up who knows and is in charge of the kid.
Lee

I'd be more carefree about it, and talked to my child and not made it out to be as a bad thing, we would've had a nice sit down and it'd be the end of that. Then I'd go to the teacher and give them a piece of my mind. :)

But these people being grandparents does change the equation quite a bit, and if the girl was not raised with an open mind and did not have the kind of relationship with her parents that would nurture her viewing of this movie, then she may well have been tramuatized by it.

to end up being raised by her grandparents.

Like you, I would have made my position clear at school without getting my daughter even more upset.

But that's why schools are supposed to get permission first. Not all kids or families are the same.

seeing that the movie is officially over and old and out of our consciousness.

Schindler's List without sending home parental notification & permission slips.

that really pissed me off. it's an R rated movie and i would not have given permission for her to see it.

on edit: she was 14 and i was very conscientious about the movies she saw.

When they showed Apocalypse Now in my son's school, I had to give permission.

I remember seeing Psycho, Deliverance, The Ten Commandments were among the specific movies we watched. I don't see what the big deal is, honestly. :shrug:

you are the parent? If so... YOU choose. It is a MOVIE... kids pretty well understand "fiction" and "acting" etc... let people take care of their own and don't be concerned... YOU are the decider! <g>

no question about it.

It was a stupid idea for this substitute teacher to show it in class.

I'd be saying the same thing if it were a movie that dealt with heterosexual issues.

Nobody ever said Titanic wasn't appropriate for 12 year olds.

So, technically, neither should have been shown in school to 12 year olds without parental permission.

Frankly, I'm disturbed that people put more authority in a small room full of wanks than they do in their own child's teacher.

She had no knowledge of any of the students in the class.

In Illinois, you can get a "Substitute Teacher Certificate" with only a 4 year degree, or less than a four year degree, plus experience. But even those requirements are waived in the Chicago School District, where this student was enrolled.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:yHzEQ2ssLz4J:people.coe.ilstu.edu/malorber/Ppoint/09%2520Certification%2520in%2520IL.ppt+illinois+%2B%22substitute+teacher+certificate%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us

"7. The Chicago Public Schools are exempt from these requirements."

is just a bunch of jerks in a dark room.

is that the MPAA is motivated NOT to give an R rating to a movie -- and movie makers are motivated to change their pictures in order to get a PG-13 rating-- because the R rating lowers the potential income.

The nudity, the sex scenes, the profanity, and the violence in Brokeback all combined to give it an R rating. I can only wonder if you actually saw the movie. Do you think suicide, for example, is a good topic for children?

However, as I siad, even the Titanic had a rating that should disqualify a teacher from showing it to 12 year olds without parental permission.

The idea that a movie might be appropriate for 13 year olds, but not appropriate for 12 year olds is silly.

Not 12 or 13.

And anyone who would argue that there's no difference between high school juniors and seniors and middle school age students clearly doesn't know adolescents at all.

Which is rated PG-13, R is 17, unless accompanied by an adult.

which is an insult to Brokeback, by the way.

Thank you for the correction about age 17. All the more reason Brokeback shouldn't have been shown to 12 year olds.

There's nothing in Brokeback, ratings wise, that's not in Titanic. Except for homosexuality, and that's what everybody's hung up on.

since they accepted the R rating. They could have cut out a minute or two of material and gotten a PG-13, but that was their choice.

And the grandparents of this girl -- her guardians -- are "hung up on" a lot more than homosexuality. The previous year they were upset that the girl was getting exposed to "curse words" in her reading material. I'm sure they would have objected to her being shown any PG-13 or R movies, gay or straight.

Because the producers didn't have a choice.

"And the grandparents of this girl"

The grandparents of this girl are a couple of homophobic freaks who are trying to cash in.

"The previous year they were upset that the girl was getting exposed to "curse words" in her reading materia"

Just proves my point.

This producer could have snipped out a couple of minutes worth of material and gotten a PG-13 rating. He chose not to.

This happens routinely whenever a movie involves nudity and sex scenes. There is a bargaining process that goes on between the producer and the MPAA.

But that would be called "censorship"

and frontal nudity, and a bloody scene or two -- IF the PG-13 rating had been important enough to them. But that wouldn't really make sense because the themes of the movie itself were adult. It wasn't a kids' movie, or a "family feature," it was a serious movie for adults.

There was no decision made in rating Brokeback that isn't routinely made in rating movies involving straight relationships. It deserved its R rating.

And no teacher should have shown it to a 12 year old without parental permission.

nudity, sex scenes, violence...

Tell me, pnwmom, why, in your own words, Brokeback Mountain is more vulgar than Titanic?

When did I say it was more "vulgar" than Titanic?

As I said elsewhere, it's an insult to Brokeback to compare it to Titanic, which was a very dumb movie.

That's some hole you've dug yourself into.

I'm not digging a hole. You're losing your memory.

Because in post 69 you implied you agreed with me that it's stupid to think that a movie appropriate for 13 year olds would be appropriate for 12 year olds. You do know that Titanic is PG-13, right?

and disregard getting parental approval for underage students, at their peril.

And lines have to be drawn somewhere. If a line is drawn between 12 and 13, for PG-13, that's no sillier than between 16 and 17 for an R rating.

I'm asking you to explain why Titanic isn't appropriate for 12 year olds, even though it's rated PG-13, and what the difference is between it and Brokeback, content wise.

This is pointless.

and pointless questions.

basically was just asking you to explain your position.

I agree, that is rather pointless.

Shakespeare plays and Shakespeare is standard fare in most schools. Kids are already hearing about violence, sex, suicide and everything else under the sun in most of their English classes. :eyes:

Titanic is inappropriate for anyone with good taste...

I just had to throw that in there, what with Titanic vying for first place with The Matrix and Starship Troopers as the worst movies ever made in the world according to Lantern Waste :)

What a dumb movie.

:hi:

especially without parental approval.

Now if the movie was edited to the airplane-safe mode, I have no problem with it. But top show 12 year olds any R-rated (and even PG-13) movie without parent permission is unacceptable.

The teacher showed an R rated movie with nudity to a bunch of middle school kids without their parents permission.

If we have to require parents permission for them to attend sex ed, then movies with strong sexual content would also qualify. And the material was completely inappropriate, IMO, for kids who were 13-14 years old.

The teacher knew she wasn't supposed to do what she was doing, as she closed the door and allegedly said that what happened in her classroom stayed in her classroom.

substitute teacher's certificate (which itself only requires a bachelor degree, or part of a degree, plus experience) when it hires substitute teachers? I wonder what this woman's story is.

Welcopme to DU, JPettus!

Other than that, I'm not sure what the problem would be.

The parents who bitch about this don't seem to realize that while they are at work, their kids are watching porn on TV and downloading snuff films on gnutella.

are very likely retired and at home, so your supposition seems unlikely.

And yes, there was explicit sex in the movie, both straight and gay. There was also a suicide, and other scenes of violence.

Suing a school district over a movie is obscene.

That's it.