"UNTIL Christians can build CHURCHES...

... in Saudi Arabia, NO MORE MOSQUES in the USA!"

I've come across this nice right-wing "Christian" sentiment recently in a few places. And thus I am wondering: of all the largely Muslim countries in the world, why is Saudi Arabia singled out? Is it because it's the only country where non-Muslim religions are in fact oppressed by law (including Sharia Law), and thus the only country that can be used to make this rant work?

Aren't there any primarily Islamic countries where non-Muslim religions are tolerated and religious freedom is protected?

Just asking, because I don't know.


-------------------------------------------

but it is illegal to try to convert Muslims away from their faith in nearly all of them.

That's the real gripe of the poor, persecuted right wing Christians.

:(

Christians in Iran: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iran

Bahai are seen as a heretical sect of Islam, that's why they're persecuted. It's a shame there is no insight among the Shia mullahs who are seen as a heretical sect of Islam by the Sunni majority in the world.

... in Saudi Arabia. Any non-Muslim religion, that is, not just Christians. This is in addition to the death penalty for a Muslim converting to another faith.

---------------------

to get involved in this whole mosque at ground zero thing. Isn't that up to local zoning?

The government's stake is in enforcing the provisions of the first amendment regarding the free exercise of religion.

this is a local issue, as in zoning. Zoning was approved. I don't understand why Obama would interject into this...it just fodder for the GOP to make him look bad.

It's the right wing who interjected themselves.

"They are allowed to do this" isn't getting terribly involved, especially when that's objectively true.

in Pakistan. Furthermore it is illegal in Muslim countries to build churches or even renovate them. And its utterly disingenuous not to mention that converts to any religion in Muslim countries can be executed. Islamic penalties for apostates are extremely harsh.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jan/14/anti-christian-violence-muslim-world

There's often a gap between the law and the practices of bigots.

snip from the Council on Foreign Relations

Non-Muslim groups across the Muslim world increasingly complain that their rights are being infringed upon by
Islamic courts. While constitutions in Muslim countries usually guarantee freedom of religion, they also bow to Islamic law. Iraq’s constitution, for example, states Islam is the official religion and “a source of legislation”—not the sole source of authority—but adds that the government may not enact a law “that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.”




http://www.cfr.org/publication/13552/religious_conversion_and_sharia_law.html#p8

There's the religious obligation to allow people of the book to continue living as a Dhimmi, but the more extreme elements in SA don't like that.

As a practical matter, contract workers from places like the Philippines are allowed to worship quietly as Christians in set-aside areas; there's still something furtive about it. Evangelism is theoretically punishable by death, though the missionary is usually just kicked out of the country unless the morality police need a cookie to keep them quiet (the country they're from seems to matter a lot here). Actually building a structure as a dedicated Christian church is out of the question, though.

None of which, of course, should have any bearing on the price of tea in China or the zoning of a former Burlington coat factory in lower Manhattan.

SA is an extreme case among extreme cases since the guardians of Mecca and Medina want to pretend it's heaven on earth, stripped of all non Muslim heresy. Unfortunately, they're stuck with the words of the Prophet, himself, who allowed for differences of opinion among followers of the book and the realpolitik of tolerating useful merchants and artisans who were Jews or Christians, even though he was often so frustrated with their intransigence in accepting Islam that he also ruminated about their wholesale slaughter*. Allowing heavier taxes to be levied on those outside the faith has kept the revenue stream fat enough to keep the power structure quiet through history.

Most countries that have that "death to infidels who try to stray Muslims from their holy path" law will kick missionaries out after they jail them and try to scare the Jesus out of them. Muslims are, after all, practical and reasonably compassionate.

And no, none of this has anything to do with the proposition of rehabbing a shabby building in lower Manhattan into a center for Muslim healing after 9/11.

*Note that I don't pretend to be an expert on the Quran. I've only read it in translation and certainly not all of it.

This country was founded FOR freedom of/from religion.

It matters not what other countries do/think. We have to work within the bounds we have codified or change the law.

If they don't like it, they can feel free to purchase land where they can set up their own sovereign theocracy. I hear Greece is selling off their Islands.

of Islam, Wahabism, they are pretty strict and not so tolerant
kof other religions.

Hasn't everybody?

but a Kingdom with leaders who are not elected but selected by birth rights. So therefore their whole argument is useless as it is up to the King to decide which religion is practiced in his Kingdom. Unlike The United States who's citizens have a Right to decide which religion or not that they practice, no where in the Bill of Rights does it say only the Christian religion can be practiced. So they have nothing to stand on legally.

Friggin wingnuts do not understand that our freedoms are what make us Americans.
What the hell do they think so many have died to protect?

I lived there from 2005-2009, in Alexandria. Which has a rep as the most liberal and cosmopolitan city in Egypt.

Standard Disclaimer: I'm an atheist, so I don't have a god in this fight.

Egypt is officially under sharia law, according to Article 2 of its Constitution. But that change, editing-in sharia law, was only implemented a few years ago, or so I've read.

I also lived in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia for 2 years. Compared to Saudi Arabia, Egypt is California.

About 95% of Egyptians are Muslim. Most of the rest are Coptic Xians (a/k/a Egyptian Orthodox), who have been a thorn in the side of Islamic Fundamentalists since the Seventh Century, when an Islamic army took Egypt.

One of my Egyptian co-workers and friends was Catholic, which is very rare.

Until the last half-century or so, both Cairo and Alexandria had fairly large Jewish communities. Most of the Jews were finally exiled after the Six Day War in 1967, along with Alexandria's large "foreign" communities - mostly Greek and Italian families who had lived in Egypt for generations. There are probably fewer than 100 Jews in all of Egypt now, mostly very old people.

In Alexandria, I often used to walk past a large Jewish tabernacle. Its gates were chained shut and it had to be guarded 24/7 to keep fanatics from vandalizing or burning it. A very sad place.

While I lived in Alexandria, two very large and ugly riots took place between Muslims and Coptic Xians. One happened uncomfortably close to my neighborhood, near a big Coptic church called All Souls. It was a full-blown riot, with cars and houses torched and people hurt and killed. Incredibly weird. Every morning when I went to work, I passed by those people happily getting along, chatting, walking their kids to school, shopping in the markets together, etc. etc. And suddenly, they were trying to kill each other.

My Egyptian friends were horrified by that and kept saying: "That just doesn't happen here. In Alexandria, we all get along."

In our normal everyday life, I have to say that I never saw any discord between the religions. Once, a Xian guy wanted to take a long Easter weekend with his family. His Muslim co-workers re-arranged their schedules to cover for him. And he did the same for them during Eid al-Fitr, the big holiday at the end of Ramadan.

Sorry for all the wordiness, I got carried away. As usual.

The Eygptin govt has refrained "from passing the long awaited bill on the "unified law for building places of worship," which would put an end to all problems related to building and restoring places of worship. It is also believed that since Islam views church building as a sin, passing this bill would therefore be in conflict with Shari'a Law -- which is the main source of legislation as stipulated in the Constitution -- and this would be something that the government would avoid at all costs."


http://www.aina.org/news/20090831182120.htm





http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/dec/06/swiss-minarets-christian-churches-egypt

I left Egypt in Feb. 2009, before that latest dust-up you referenced. But while I was there, the issue of building churches in Muslim neighborhoods - or mosques in Xian areas - often caused trouble.

Near my apartment in Alexandria, a huge Coptic church and a huge mosque were located dead-bang across the street from each other. That led me to have a lot of humorous atheistic thoughts...

Anyway, strictly from a kwaji (foreigner) POV, here's some context to the articles you posted:

1. Al-Azhar University in Cairo is the world's oldest Islamic college. It usually falls on the more liberal side of things. Two of its professors of sharia law are women, which pisses off the Islamic Fundies to no end. Those women frequently get death threats. One of them, Souad Saleh, is very outspoken. e.g., she is opposed to niqab, the full body covering with face veil.

2. Pretty much anybody can issue a fatwa. But technically, in Islamic law (as I understand it), a fatwa can only be legally binding on two people - the person who asks for it, and the person who issues it.

That's why blanket fatwas such as this one are usually considered theologically illegal - along with stuff like "Kill Salman Rushdie" or "Slaughter all the infidels."

Nowadays the whole Middle East is plagued by televised imams, who operate pretty much like American televangelists. The Egyptians call them "Ask An Imam" shows. Muslims can call in with questions, and get an Instant Fatwa. Right on TV!

While I was over there, one imam got a call from a woman who asked if married couples should be completely naked when they have sex. The TV imam said no, it was a sin to be completely naked when having sex, even if you were married.

The aforementioned Souad Saleh got right on the phone, called the Ask-An-Imam, and told him he was not only religiously wrong but "crazy." That story caused a media frenzy for a few days, and a very entertaining one.

3. So how did this fatwa get issued? I'm betting because of 2 words - Muslim Brotherhood. One of the oldest Islamic Fundamentalist terrorist groups, which has been trying to turn Egypt into a theocracy since 1926.

In the last few years, the MB has thrown off the gellibyahs and put on Armani suits. They're trying to sell themselves as warm, fuzzy born-again pluralistic democrats, but no moderate-to-liberal Egyptians are buying that.

While I was over there, the Supreme Leader of the MB made one of his canned speeches, in the vein of we-love-all-faiths, let's-join-hands-and-sing-Kumbayah, etc. etc.

Couple of days later, in another venue, he said the Holocaust never happened. When that hit the papers, the Supreme Guide started shrieking that he had been misquoted by the Evil Liberal (Egyptian) media. Some things really are the same all over the world!

The shit will really hit the fan in Egypt when Hosni Mubarak dies, and I would not be a bit surprised to see Egypt slide into a very ugly theocracy. For years, Mubarak's govt. has walked a fine line between ignoring/provoking the MB and giving in to them.

When I left, Mubarak was clearly grooming his son to take over the government. That idea truly unites Egyptians of every political and religious creed - they HATE it. As one of my Egyptian friends often said - very quietly: "We're supposed to be a republic. We don't have Pharoahs any more, who can give the country to their sons."

got me giggling

about a city in Egypt (Alexandria?) where the last Jew was flying to Israel He was 80 something years old.

The article was about the Torah.

The Egyptian government wouldn't let him take it with him as it was a historical Egyptian article.

It was 500(?) years old and he didn't want to leave because he thought the Egyptians woudl destroy it.

Article didn't say what in the end happened.

:wtf:

Do these dumbfucks even LISTEN to themselves?

No. Self awareness is not a strong agenda item for most fundamentalist religious types. ;)

yes, there are limits to freedom in many of these places but there are christians and christian churches in those places.

who gives a shit about what saudi arabia allows.

He was a Coptic Christian. When I asked him about his experiences while living in Egypt, he mentioned constant oppression from Muslims.

Of course, I only heard his side of the story. I did find these articles on the internet. They do seem to back up what he said.





However Muslims and Christians appear to have a better relationship in Lebanon.

ask any muslim living in a christian country and he will tell you that there is constant oppression from christians. can you deny the fact that christians view muslims as backward animals who deserve being genocided? nuke the ME, kill them all. isn`t this what the average American wants?

you say ask any muslim individual about his experience and then you broadbrush all christians
well this christian doesnt want any of the things you listed
whatever your personal religon please discontinue speakin for me

ETA: welcome to DU

I had a casual acquaintance with several Muslims in Tampa. We never discussed religion.

The subject with the vet came up when I mentioned using the internet while he was treating my dog. (This incident happened at least 10 years ago.) He told me of a Coptic web site which I visited. The next time I took my dog in, we talked abut the site and discussed his experiences in Egypt.

Some Christians and racists do feel as you suggest, but I doubt that the average American wishes to kill all Muslims. Maybe I run with a different crowd, but while the people I know dislike Muslim terrorists, they don't hate Muslims in general.

edited to add time frame to vet incident.

it's hardly just to do with religion any longer.

even though most arabs in the middle east are Muslims, the ones in America are mostly Christian.

We have a Melkite Catholic Church here in Manchester, and there's a Marionite Catholic Church not far away in Methuen, Mass. Both have a large number of Lebanese parishioners.

Little known fact: Bill Shaheen, the husband of Sen. Jeanne Shaheen, is of Arab Christian descent (half Lebanese, half Irish). Jeanne's predecesor, John Sununu, comes from a Palestinian Christian family.

Nice for them.

I do NOT want that. Do you?

"When Saudi Arabia is the USA of the Middle East, made in our image, then we'll consider letting them build a mosque... oh, wait, they'll all be Christians by then. Never mind."

:eyes:

-------------------------------

Ain't gonna happen. Saudi Arabia is a theocratic monarchy. The US is a secular republic with freedom of religion inscribed in our Constitution.

I really do wish Saudi Arabia was a better place--less violently hostile to minorities of all kinds, women, GLBT, etcetera. Ain't gonna happen as long as US oil money keeps propping up the corrupt royalty, though.

Meanwhile, I really think a lot of the religious right in this country empathize and sympathize with brutal theocrats all over the world. They wish they had the power to crush dissent and minority religions and reduce understanding of sexuality to that of a barely-surviving mostly-illiterate desert cult of thousands of years ago.

Nope. We're better than that. And part of being better than that is allowing minority religions full citizenship. Shit, even the Muslim state of Spain managed that in the Middle Ages--and were making huge advances in science and medicine and the arts while most of Northern Europe still thought taking baths let the demons in.

Although Turkey is getting pretty wingnutty lately.

i don`t see anyone in Turkey opposing a christian church or burning bible.

with the internal running of the Orthodox Church. Severe restrictions are placed on the election of a new Patriarch of Constantinople in a way unthinkable in any western liberal democracy.

The Turkish government, for example, imposes restrictions on the election of the Ecumenical Patriarch and Hierarchs who vote for him by requiring that they must be Turkish citizens. In fact, the government arbitrarily can veto any candidate for the position of Ecumenical Patriarch.

Can you imagine the indignation if Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlasconi tried to insist that the Pope must be an Italian? Or, for example, if the Italian government sought to restrict the papal conclave to only Italian cardinals?

With the dwindling population of Hierarchs and Orthodox Christians in Turkey, there is a real fear that the Church may not be able to elect an Ecumenical Patriarch in the not-too-distant future. According to Patriarch Barthomelow himself ''this is tantamount to the asphyxiation of the leadership of the Holy Mother Church and a clear illustration of the direct intervention of the Turkish government in ecclesiastical matters''.

Not content to control who should lead the Church, the Turkish government has also forbidden the training of Orthodox priests in the country by forcibly closing the theological school at Halki. Since its closure, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has had to send the young men from its community desiring to enter the priesthood to one of the theological schools in Greece. In many instances, the young priests do not return given the onerous restrictions in getting work permits.

Despite promises by the Turkish government to re-open the theological school, there has been no progress since 1971."


Through various methods, the Turkish authorities have also confiscated thousands of properties from the Ecumenical Patiarchate and the Greek Orthodox community including monasteries, church buildings, an orphanage, private homes, apartment buildings, schools and land.

Against this backdrop, the Christian community of Turkey continues to diminish greatly.



http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/turkeys-christians-how-much-more-can-they-take-michael-kelly




60 Minutes also ran a story about this.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/12/17/60minutes/main5990390.shtml

so what is your point?

fyi. all the religious institutions in Turkey are subject to government regulation. That applies to the muslim mosques, jewish synagogues and christian churches are no exception. Don`t worry, when America lets muslims form their caliphate in America, Turkey will allow the christians choose a non-Turkish patriarch.

the backing of the Mayor and other pols. Your comments are senseless.

Ask a good question and sometimes you'll get a good answer.

Well done, snagglepuss.

from a Hindu perspective.


The Colonized Mind
by Sadanand Dhume, November 2009
Guernica Magazine


In Java, Indonesia’s traditionally relaxed Islam has lost ground to an assertive new orthodoxy.

snip


Historically, the Javanese had not confused being Muslim with being Arab. They had bent Islam to their culture rather than the other way round. In Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey, V. S. Naipaul writes: “It was as if, at this far end of the world, the people of Java had taken what was most humane and liberating from the religions that had come their way, to make their own.”

They had taken the best of Islam, its simple egalitarianism, its ability to infuse drab lives with dignity, without devaluing their earlier achievements. The Javanese retained their own history and architecture, their own names, their own dress and dance and music, their own rituals at birth and marriage and death, even their own conception of the afterlife. It was these, expressed in a million subtle ways in gesture and carriage and voice, that gave their civilization such a high gloss at what remained, after all, a very low level of income.

It was these that the wave of orthodox Islam that had washed over Indonesia in the last thirty-odd years threatened to extinguish.



http://www.guernicamag.com/pages/1413/the_colonized_mind/index.php

They single out Saudi Arabia for this particular rant since 15 of the 9/11 hijackers were from that country.

---------------------------------

they surprisingly survived "the super 9/11 type jet fuel fire" that melted the steel blocks.

Maybe when they entered the country?

Are we now their puppets, that they can jerk us around like that?

middle eastern religion. in the beginning it was`t so but as we all know what happen to christianity when rome and later the catholic church came into being.the same thing happened to islam.

in Saudi Arabia, Christians shouldn't be able to buy booze here! As long as there are jackasses in Saudi Arabia, there will be jackasses here!

:rant:

The country is in some ways the "capital" of Islam, along with the still-hypothetical Palestine (part of the problem over there is that it isn't just any random strip of land where Muslims live).

We are the USA. The land of the free and the home of the brave. If these people are so small and insecure that freedom of religion scares them, then they don't understand our country at all. Let them go somewhere else and shout there religious intolerance and see where they end up. Let them try to convert people in Saudi Arabia and see what happens. In this country we have freedom of religion that is why they get to speak, no matter how uninformed.

Shows how much they really think of our country.

I'm sure that's news to Jesus, et al.

:rofl:

(I spel gud)

"THAT'LL LURN EM!"

I'm pretty sure that Christians can openly practice there. My friend is a Coptic Christian from Jordan. Also, I know someone mentioned Egypt, but I know for a fact that Christians can worship there, too (my cousin in Egyptian).


This whole meme is ridiculous BS. For someone who values "freedoms" like Newt Gingrich, why the hell would "freedom-loving" teabaggers and GOPers want to become like Saudi Arabia.
Oh, right, it's a theocracy.

Makes just as much sense.

Why does the ACLU get the courts to prevent religious displays, particularly Nativity scenes, etc, in public place during Christmas?

Let's try this a step at a time for you.

Religious believers, on property they lawfully own/rent can practice their religion.

For a gathering on public property, they can even get a permit.

However, the GOVERNMENT is not a religious organization, and since it represents all of the people, it cannot promote one.

Is it really that hard for you to understand the difference between people doing their own thing on their own property,and the government participating in religious activities?

religions can worship wherever they want. So, that's not true.

You said, "However, the GOVERNMENT is not a religious organization, and since it represents all of the people, it cannot promote one." Which brings me back to the question, why is the President, who is the very top of GOVERNMENT, promoting and even weighing in on a local issue? This isn't about freedom of religion, it's about zoning,and that's been settled.

community center built. The only promotion I see if the freedom of religion.

A fair number of unamerican bigots have a problem with the first Amendment.

You have a problem with a president reminding those people what the Constitution says?