How does anyone know chaos will occur if we remove our troops from Iraq

Just because the always correct Cheney says so? I have listened to many reputable people tell us that 80% of the violence occuring there now is because of the US occupation. If two plus two really equal four then to eliminate most violence it would seem the best course would be to remove our occupying force not increase it. Anyone who claims chaos would break out if we leave IMO is spouting propaganda originated by Cheney and Co. I would hope some Democrat would stand up and say they have a huge credibility problem and cast doubt on what they tell us.

... it's ALREADY chaos in Iraq. Has been since mid-March, 2003. :eyes:

The US troops have planes, etc and can put somewhat of a clamp on things now.

that it will turn chaotic

:sarcasm:

Seriously, they have been wrong on every single other issue, why would anyone believe that they are correct this time?

inhofe's

they have no substance whatsoever. It is Big Brother attempting to continue the mind control program.

The probability is great that if we got out, one catalyst for chaos would be removed and some level of stability would be achieved in time. Kind of like if you were slapping the wall of an aquarium and all teh fish were dashing about. Stop it and they'll revert to their fragile peace, wherein some have staked out the big rocks, others have to lurk around the edges.


The issue to cheney & co is the ones who would have the big rocks (oil fields) aren't their friends.

So they want to keep slapping the wall until they can get their guys in place to take over

Begin somewhere, anywhere. Pull our troops out of a region and see if you can't get the locals to start self-governance and compromise. As long as we're there, somebody is going to use as the basis for their fight. Announcing that we're leaving and then bringing out a subsantial number of troops is the best way to take away at least half the argument some of these people are using to create unrest.

The party is strongest when all the partiers get up and speak as one.

Us little people don't really count for much...

It is we who count. It is the attitude expressed here, by you, that has tended to bury us in the shallow grave we were dumped into, alive!

We are rising now, and with a vengeance we will take back the power we have always had and reclaim our country.

I know this from my own experience. Become experienced, I dare you.

Sunnis and Shite have been killing each other for alot longer than the USA has existed. Sadaam's brutal control was the only thing that somewhat kept the peace.

In my mind the only thing that will slow or end the bloodshed is dividing up Iraq and making sure oil money is appropriatly distributed.

and there's no hope of it ending as long as our troops stay.

:headbang:
rocknation

might be a good indicator.

I have to say, I'm sick of people on both sides in this matter playing politics with the truth. You're an idiot if you don't think that some sort of violence will break out. Violence has already fucking broken out.

And that bullshit about the attacks being against our troops, yes it's true, but it just means that when we leave, there will be more time for the Iraqis to kill one another. It's not going to magically end all the violence.

That's like saying we would be fucking greeted as liberators.

I'm willing to bet that, unfortunately, when we do leave that there will be a massive civil war, and millions of Iraqis will die, just like millions of Vietnamese died in their civil war.

Unfortunately, the best our Armed Forces can do is institute some type of martial law, which would end the violence in the short term, but in the long term when the martial law is lifted the violence will start up again. That's because this violence is being motivated by a number of unresolvable problems.

While Iraq will go into complete chaos if we leave, it is slowly headed there anyway. I don't want American soldiers dying for a lost cause.

The idiots in the White House tripped a bear trap when they invaded, and now the pent up tensions are being released. The soldiers are trying to keep the bear trap from snapping shut, but it is slowly closing. The only option we have is to figure out a way for them to make it out without being caught in the trap when it finally closes.

Leaving Iraq may be the action that directly precedes this violent civil war, but it is not the act that caused it. Invading Iraq is the original cause of all these tensions being released, and therefore the cause of the coming civil war.

When this civil war happens, it is possible that the civil war will grow into a general Sunni v. Shi'a conflict. That means Saudi Arabia and other Sunni countries would fight Iran and it's various proxies in the Middle East. If that happens the price of oil will rise dramatically. There will still be oil for us to buy, but it will be costly.

And those are the only two reasons that we're really staying in Iraq for. The Democratic leadership knows this, and they don't want to be blamed for Iraq going to shit. It's sad that they would be blamed, because any of them who voted against the Iraq war, they don't deserve any blame at all. On the other hand, anyone who voted for the war is directly responsible for our soldiers dying in a foreign civil war.

they alrrrrready are!!!

so 50 will die in a car bomb?? they already are!!

people are dying daily "with " our occupation...so is doing the same old same, old, saving lives?? i think not!!

Our occupation has caused the worst chaos these people have ever seen...and the total destruction of their civilization!

who the fuck is kidding who??????????

get us the hell out..give the iraqi people the money that will be spent on more war..let them hire who they want for reconstruction..like their own people perhaps??

but noooooooooo *shy boy can't have that..because it is all about PNAC and OIL!!

WELL I SAY..WHOEVER SUPPORTS THIS BULLSHIT..GET ON A PLANE RIGHT NOW AND GET THEIR ASS OVER THERE AND SEND OUR KIDS BACK HOME..

enough is enough!

oh and since Jenna or whichever of them, wants to write a book..send her ass over there and tell her to write a book about how many human beings her dad has murdered in the name of greed and power!

i have had enough!

fly

Removing Saddam was the ploy to insure conflict and therefore destabilize Iraq.

This has never been about humanitarian concerns and instilling a stable democracy,

This is about establishing a permanent beachhead in the region.

We are never leaving Iraq.

and I suspect a very general chaos would occur and an incredible amount of killing.

Compared to having 80% of the population only having electricity <50% each day? Carbombings on a daily basis? Mayors needing armored vehicles & full compliments of bodyguards? Compared to 38% inflation?

Come on!
The Professor

Let's say the killing increases to thousands a day? The water treatment plants all get blown up? ETC

I was just about to post that the bad can always get worse. Sure there is chaos now as everyone keeps saying but I fear that what would come if our soldiers left could make the current fighting look like a mere skirmish. Having said that, I don't particularly want our soldiers in the middle of it, so I'm in a Catch-22 over the whole issue. In my heart of hearts I think that staying and leaving are going to cause alot of suffering all around. I'm pretty sure that most people who were against the war from the beginning saw us getting painted into this particular corner.

There are a lot of Sunni/Saddam's old military around who do know how to fight. And the Shiites who have lots of reason to avenge their years of suffering under Saddam. I see no good outcome. I think the US military does put a clamp on all out civil war right now as they know we can still bomb the crap out of them. But should our military be used that way? There are a lot of complicating factors like how long the killing could go on or would it go on until one side completely and savagely exterminates the other side. Millions could die. I am beside myself with the possibilities of how bad this can get.

There isn't any such thing as "more chaos". It's either chaotic or it isn't.
The Professor

I disagree. Take what happened in Lebanon recently as a simple example: A fight breaks out in a university cafeteria (chaos) and spills out into the street, erupting into riotous violence in which at least one person is killed (more chaos).

or some areas versus having it in almost all areas. For example, the Kurdish areas aren't haven't too much trouble right now but maybe some real trouble will start there in a few months.

The only way the state of Iraq can resolve the civil war is through internal resolution, not external resolution. It may be years, but the day we leave is the day Iraq starts back on the road to recovery. But the neo-cons already know this. Since they are dishonest about the motives for invading and occupying Iraq in the 1st place, I hardly think we can expect an honest assessment on how to stop the violence from this band of war criminals.

I suspect

You have no way in hell of knowing. Iraq is the oldest civilization on earth and you have the audacity to think you know more about how they will survive than they do. Eighty percent of Iraqis want the US (infidels) out of their country...but you know better how they will behave......I suspect...

We aren't changing shit, just giving snipers more targets to practice on

That more chaos won't result if the US leaves?

What happened after the US left Vietnam? Peace, happy farmers selling produce at markets, kids attending school, free, fair elections, new factories and jobs, clean water, electricifcation of the countryside, medical attention for anyone in need or was it more war as the NV army over ran the south, hundreds of thousands fleeing in rickety watercrafts, many drowning, millions dying in the killing fields of Cambodia as the confict spread?

Iraq is five thousand years old, the USA is two hundred years old yet you believe we know more about getting along than they do. The USA which has been involved in some sort of Conflict every twenty years or so and yet we have the audacity to think we know more about getting along than the oldest civilization on earth...Arrogance anyone........

It's amazing what people can convince themselves of if they live in a vacuum.

What will happen when we leave Iraq? Genocide....Pure and simple. All sides are stockpiling weapons now, the Kurd buy tanks and fighter jets from the Israelis and the turks......Yes I said it, the turks.....The Sunni Arab militias are laying hands on whatever they can get from Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia and the Shiites are smuggling, importing, borrowing and stealing any heavy weaponry they can get from Iran. How do I know? Because their newspapers tell me so. The age of their civilization is no way shape or form a marker for how violent or nonviolent they will be. Hell it's not even one continuous civilization over 5000 years. You had the Sumerians and Akkadians and Assyrians, and then the Mitanni and Hittites showed up, oh and don't forget the Indo aryans mixing with the people of SE Iraq, and let's not forget the Arab bedouins who brought a faith and a new culture, nor the centuries of sway the Ottoman turks held over most of Iraq and last but not least we cannot forget the Mongol occupation of the 13th century......

That being said, it is sheer folly to imagine anything else but genocide will break out. Our incompetence coupled with centuries of anger towards each other make this Bosnia on steroids. The Kurds will never forget the 7th century massacre of the residents of Nuzi by the Sunni Arabs, the Shiites will never forget what Sunni arabs did to Ali, and the Sunnis live in constant fear of revenge against them....Again how do I know this? Because every patrol I ever went on, ever damn one I was told by a kid, or an adult or an old woman even that when we leave "bad people will die". To most Iraqis bad people is anyone not of their particular ethnicity or religious branch of Islam......

And yes we do know more about getting along, our religious fanatics so far aren't suicide bombing Whole foods market, our fearful reactionary minority so far has never declared a holy war on non reactionaries and our largest minority ethnic group hasn't begun stockpiling tanks and fighter jets in anticipation of revenge. So yes, I have no problem from my experiences in Iraq saying we know better how to get along than Iraqis do, and I have no problem saying our departure will start a genocide like what we saw in Bosnia, except this one has the real chance of pulling in other countries to protect their minorities as well as secure oil fields and gain territory.......

But tell me I'm wrong...... I'm used to people telling me that my experience and info on the situation in Iraq are wrong and they are right even if they have never stepped foot in the country since the war began.

and bring them home or redeploy where they can do us some good.

it would

in place. Not some puppet(Maliki !) doing the jitter bug on the end of bush's string. They need to work it out themselves. And this guy will probably (almost definitely!) be more of a sonofabitch than saddam was. That's the way it is going to have to work to reign this mess in. And it will be our fault. We have no business telling Iraqis how to govern their country or who should be in charge. We don't understand their culture or even speak their language. It's a disaster with no good alternatives, but staying isn't going to help anybody but the ones who want to kill Americans because we broke their country.
Humbly submitted as my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

of weak, weak administration position.

So much more could be said about the surge, chances for success, Iraq chaos that is already here, long history of bad decisions, cherry picking info based on ideology, permanent bases, corruption, leadership choices, use of private contractors, DSM, etc etc etc.

Instead we get: It's up to Iraq to fix this problem. From Dems!

I say make damn sure we all know who's to blame for this, establish that those people are incapable of helping in this situation, and let adults take over.