I got a feeling that some folks just CANNOT process

any smidgen of good news.

Are combat operations in Iraq over? Yes.

Do we still have troops left behind? Unfortunately yes.

Do we have a date for them to come out? YES.

Was getting the last combat troops out AHEAD of schedule good news? YES.

I know this is hard to process for some folks, but THAT WAR is winding down to an end... that is a promise kept. Are we realizing that perhaps there are limits to what a state can do to build another? Yes, and that is actually a bag of mixed news.

But some of us are so invested in IT WILL NEVER END, that I fear we are having some trouble processing the GOOD NEWS.

Oh and do me a favor, and that goes for everybody else as well. Don't forget we still have troops over there. As the sun rises in the East, you can count on the US Media really and truly moving on now.

Doesn't mean our fight is over to make sure all the troops come home, but we should acknowledge good news and promises kept.

He also deserves credit for the bad things he does, or the things he does nothing about but could.

This is one of the very good things, though there is still more to accomplish.

of Iraq for 18 months after he left office?
Aside from burnishing jrs illegal acts with legitimacy how is this an Obama victory?

actually a bilateral agreement between two state actors. It is called the Status of Forces Agreement.

You may bitch all you want about that, but a new President don't have that much leverage to re-negotiate something that has been negotiated and ratified... if Obama tried, knowing a little on how this actually works, we'd still be there.

Yes.

Are the US and Iraq state actors? Yes.

You might argue all you want about using force to get results... but in the INTERNATIONAL ARENA Iraq is recognized as a state actor, so is the US... and treaties between the two of them are VALID under National and International Law.

I know, stinks... but that's the way it works.

And if Obama started again... we'd still be stuck THERE.

we built in Baghdad? I imagine thousands of Americans will work there, including lots of military.
The good news is they will be working to avoid combat, Bad news is they will be working to keep the bootheel of the WTO/American Empire on the necks of the Iraq people.

and that all embassies have military personnel in them?

There are issues as to how far STATE is gonna get militarized after 2011 and use mercs... but having a marine detachment is not that out of the norm.

By the way... soon, this is coming, the Empire is coming to an end. There are reasons for that. I cannot tell you the day or the hour... just that like most empires, it will be quite sudden.

Bryant

schedule.

Seriously, while the American empire will fall, it's fall will resemble the end of the British Empire more than the end of the Roman Empire.

Bryant

yes, netflix too.

I think I personally am far enough down the totem pole that I will be ok.

Then again I don't think it's happening this year.

Bryant

but it is happening, and observers at this point expect it to be sudden and chiefly surprising to most Americans... and yes life changing too.

Sorry, I tend to read that academese where people go into crazy stuff like number of nails produced, and other indicators.

And when it comes, even though you are low on the totem pole it will still affect you.

And there are vestiges of it still today, notably the previously mentioned Vatican.

Wondering if 50,000 soldiers is properly called a detachment. That's more like an army. And yes, we have them all over the world, and that won't end any time soon, neither suddenly nor gradually.

the Vatican was not part of Rome.

And you care to tell me how sudden was the fall of the most recent empire to fall? You know the USSR?

Most empires that fall are that sudden actually.

than the USA empire perversion to fall and quickly. I'm afraid that the tendency of most folks to fear change of any kind will force a gradual change only--unless global climate change or some other catastrophe forces everybody to deal with a crisis situation. We can't even get decent health care without each tiny element being squeezed and parsed and cut to ribbons. I would love a big sudden change, because I really can't stand to see what's happening with us now and not scream bloody hell.
(Hard on the larynx and the psyche)

has ended! How can people not celebrate that? For years we've been yammering "out of Iraq" yet when we begin the process of actually transitioning, it's not good enough. I'd love to know how these people think it could be good any better.

that they cannot process good news... to me, I was celebrating last night.

Fuck 'em.

found a Japanese soldier living in the jungle who thought the war was still on.

Pretty amazing to see how he lived.

at all over there in a combat/support mode, these people will only be complaining that it took too long, we didn't do it right, etc. It must be miserable to be so negative all the time.

:eyes:

honest question.

I hear that there are going to be more contractors sent in and the area will become even more unstable, ultimately only to have combat troops return again.

I dont feel the war is over, but I think they changed the terminology like something out of Orwell's 1984 to satisfy the easily manipulated or confused. This isnt a war, but a conflict, not a conflict, but a police action, not a police action, but combat support......

and the contractors are a problem, a big problem. But something is telling me the US Army is looking forwards to the last of those 50K troops (except the embassy and consulate detachments) to come out.

And an honest answer, to me it also signifies the end of empire in subtle ways.

how many of these troops will end up going straight back to Af/Pak?

Scaling down one meaningless war to ramp up another is a net zero gain in my book. Dead in Iraq is no worse than dead in Af/Pak. Dead in a stupid war is still dead in a stupid war.

And we have very subtle changes in policy and language already.

I'm glad to see the Iraq war come to an end. But when I first heard the news, the next thought in my mind was: 'Yep, gotta get ready for Israel bombing Iran. We'll need manpower when that shit hits the fan and possibly WW3 starts up.'

With the ongoing economic picture bleak, wars employ people. It's sick.

I don't know how WW III will be fought, but WW IV will be fought with stones and sticks.

Also how long has Israel being on the attack run on Iran? Four years to carry that, at least, is lousy operational security.

cannot process.

As for people at the DU, the jury is still out on a few of them.

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There's no need to break our arms patting ourselves on the back so long as Americans cannot walk the streets of Baghdad with the same confidence and security as they can stroll around Cairo.

The war continues and we still have 50,000 targets there. The last man to die for a mistake is still alive, for now.

As long as there are troops beyond embassy guards and mercenaries on the tax payer dime then we are still "in" Iraq and at war.

Label it however you prefer, laugh it up, slap each other on the back but it doesn't mean shit to me. Wake me up when all the troops are out, funding ceased, and the books verified that the flow of resources has ceased.

but you knew that.

I just felt it was wrong to start celebrating prematurely when we still have so many troops in Iraq. In a little over a year, we are going to have one big fat homecoming celebration when all of our men and women in uniform leave Iraq and come home.

There is the talk that the Iraqis (whoever that is as they have no functioning government aka the surge failed, as expected) want us there for 10 years and so there will be some compromise.

We know the level of mercenaries is doubling pretty much immediately.

So all I really know is we are there borrowing money for no benefit to the American people and would have to guess more body bags and injured Americans will come home.

Its been a number of years since the last mission accomplished celebration.
How many more til that means the occupation is over?

I can party with the best of them, now isn't the time. The MIC is a fucking Alabama tick and had to be dug out ruthlessly.

The war was illegal, a crime we did to others. While it is 'good' that we are sort of leaving, it is a 'good' that exists only due to the great wrongs we comitted. Celebrating such a thing is in questionable taste, the self lauding for what? Because at last we stopped the pilliage? Yeah, fantastic. It should be noted, but celebration is a bit much. We finally got our people to stop the actual combat, that we should never have started, which was started for a pack of lies and profit for people who were never brought to justice.
There is a limit to the pride I can have when looking at the whole of the Iraq adventure, the fortunes made, the innocents killed.
Compare it to the end of WW2 which was met with an instant party beyond description. The reaction to that was honest, as is the underwhealming reaction to this 'war' coming to an 'end'. That was a war coming to an end. See the difference?

alas it will not. So I will celebrate the ending of this... but I know that in reality nobody is getting an IMT convened. Never mind we should get one... at the very least a truth and reconciliation commission.

So since none of this is happening, this is not good news?

If I destroy my neighbor's home in a drunken brawl, it is good that I should cease, but probably I should not expect to be celebrated for stopping what I myself started, you see? My point is that the news is good, but that does not give us the all clear to celebrate, because it is good news that should never have been in the first place, and it is our fault that the war happened at all. Acknowledge, sure. Be glad, why not? But to self congratulate over it? To dance? To each his own style, I guess.
My joy is simply mitigated by our culpability in this horror.

just one will be sufficient.

Show me one that does not get it that war crimes were committed. Oh wait, those you might be able to find. But in the overall STRATEGIC picture... this IS A GOOD THING.

SO until we get an IMT we cannot see this as a good thing? Ok... good luck Don Quixote, and yes we should get one, but we won't.

I did not say that anyone on DU supported the invasion. Where did you get that? I did not say that at all. So that is very not cricket of you.
All I said is that my standards for self congratulations is higher than 'I've stopped a wrong'. To me, you are castigating others for not engaging along with you to makeing more out of this than it is, or for others to feel about it as you do. I'm fine with you sipping champers from a slipper to mark the historic day if that is how you feel about it. And you should also be fine with others who might see this as a mitigated good, more of a bittersweet sort of step, a bit more nuanced than 'a good thing' or 'a bad thing. When a war ends and it is purely good thing, we the Americans should not be saying 'gee sorry about that' as we depart. This is what makes it bittersweet, and why I do not agree with you that those who are not hyping this are tilting at Windmills. It is you who could not hear how I see the war, and this day in it, without trying to put words into my mouth and then calling me Don Quixote. You characterized me, rather than speaking to the point I made. Which is that this is a day whose good is mitigated by the bad that made it necessary. Seems that is too complex for you, or it will not fit into the frame you wish, so you lash out at me. Caps really don't say much save for being a typist's nod to imperialism, a font based frontal assualt of sorts.
So whatever, kid. Deal with it. Some of us lost people there. So bittersweet, footnoted celebrations are what they are. No day of the Iraq fiasco was a good day, nor a good thing. It was wrong and every day of it remains so.
You should hire a DJ and shout USA! If you want. It is a step. Just do not call a mature and reality based reaction by a bunch of insulting and presumptous names because it is not your own. Please. There is no call for that.

have a good fucking life.

I am agreeing with you, but whatever, welcome to my ignore list.

For that you swear at me and call me Don Quoixte and you are upset with me? I say be as you wish, and so will I, that some people are not the same as me, or as you. Respect is a two way street, Nadin, and asking me who at DU favored invasion was not in any way related to what I said. I did not insult you, nor ask that you react differently to what this end of combat operations. I simply asked that you try to make this about the day, those lost, and what we still have to do, as opposed to personalized lashings out at those who 'can not process'. What is the objective in making it personal? What is served by demanding that all of us speak of the day in the exact same tones of praise? I tell you I lost people there, you say 'have a good fucking life'. So, yeah, whatever indeed. Whatever.
It is good, mitigated by our overall culpability in this awful thing. A bittersweet end to combat operations that never should have been. How that bothers you, I have no idea, because it is generous, and accurate, as an expression of my opinion. It was not intended to tell you how to think, it was intended to tell you how I think. As you had done in the OP. I say, to me, it is bittersweet, and not exactly a pure good. And for this you go berserker on me.
It is a good end of combat ops, Anthony, a real good end of combat ops. Why, I think this is the bestest end of combat ops I've ever seen, Anthony. A real good end of ops.

:thumbsup:

If the suggestion is that moving combat troops out of Iraq is a good thing, of course it is, and I don't think anyone's having trouble "processing" that. If the suggestion is that this is something President Obama said he would do, and has done, the same applies.

It's clearly a good thing.

But if the question is "Why aren't people streaming into the streets and celebrating as though WWII had ended?" or "Why isn't this being celebrated like a 'real' end of a 'real' war," it's not exactly a mystery, is it?

It isn't either of those things.

We are leaving 50,000 troops behind. We have accelerated the disaster in Afghanistan. We have, as a country, once again failed to acknowledge that invading a foreign country upon the pretext of a foreign threat, in order to favor Western business interests is both immoral and impossible. People are actually attempting to say that we "won democracy for Iraq" and other similar "Let's do this kind of thing again" bullshit.

So let's not play dumb. We know why this isn't being treated as a bigger deal, and it's not because of mindless hatred of President Obama or any such thing.

It's a relatively small step in a relatively huge problem, and it also serves to remind people that we are NOWHERE NEAR extracting ourselves from either Iraq or Afghanistan, and will be sending Americans to die in those countries and spending of billions or trillions in the process, simply to appease a queasy mixture of naked greed and kneejerk aggression specifically concocted to keep us in the business of trying to run the Middle East FOREVER.

So, yay, we've taken a step. It's an important step, and a step that a Republican administration might well have not taken, had they had control of the White House this year. But yes, in the scheme of things, it's one small step out of one very deep hole.

Let's make sure to process that as well.

When less than 1% fought the war and less than 5% were directly touched, you think most people will realize the strategic significance of this?

It is a good day... and nobody is exaggerating squat. But some folks are having trouble processing the fact that what we have fought so long to end is starting to actually END...

Whatever you believe the healthy or "normal" reaction should be, that isn't, it's not because people don't get it, somehow.

It's because they DO get it.

They get that we've been winding down Iraq for some time, and that the arbitrary announcement that "combat troops" are leaving has very little meaning at this point.

They get that we are not giving up our claim to the right and the ability to conform Iraq to our vision of America-friendly "democracy."

They get that we are taking assets from the disaster that was Iraq, and depositing them directly into the bigger disaster that is Afghanistan.

People get it just fine. They're processing it just fine. They simply are not reacting in the way that some would like them to react. And that's not their "trouble" at all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4509468

and no doubt tens of thousands of mercenaries are still getting it.

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whether some people accept it or not. K&R.

:crazy: Yup you are right, some people are never happy.

is very different than troops in Iraq. :crazy:

:crazy:

You said still which means today. Otherwise you would of said did.

Like I said troops in Germany today is very different than troops in Iraq today.

1) The Germans actually surrendered.

2) The Germans were too busy trying to find enough to eat.

3) The Germans were happy that the Russians weren't occupying them.

The Iraqis...

1) Never surrendered because there was nobody to do the surrendering.

2) Aren't a united population like Germany is. Shiaa, Sunni, Kurd, Baathist, Sadrist, clan, tribal.....

3) are on the verge of a civil war, unlike the Germans after WWII.

:evilgrin:

it took a little for that prediction on six weeks though...

:evilgrin:

Hopefully the momentum will continue in this direction.

when they are all out of there and Afghanistan too for that matter.

I don't know if that makes me a negative person or can't be happy about anything but that is the way I am I guess.

and it is coming.

Here's what I mean.

When you become a critic, professional or unprofessional :) ... YOU get to show how smart you are. You get to describe how things SHOULD BE. As you do so, you get to IGNORE the various constraints of those whom you critique. You get to attack compromises they made while ignoring anything good they accomplished. Its a very powerful experience.

In my career, I am often asked to evaluate the design work of others from my field. I COULD easily destroy almost any design I'm shown. But because I've been doing this for a long time, I know that real design work, in the field, does not occur without constraints. Schedule, materials, feature creep, changes in mgmt priorities, personality disputes with the teams ... who knows.

None of use can do a perfect design in the field. In the lab, sure. But not in the field.

So they question I have to answer when I'm called in is not, "Is this the very best design that could be done without constraints?", BUT ... "Is it a strong design given the constraints that existed?"

Some in my field don;t get this. They happily destroy designs of others as if there were no constraints. They love doing it. They love to "prove" how smart they are. But their input rarely gets included in final products. Its so far afield as to be irrelevant, given the constraints that exist.

And from my view, regarding Iraq, and much else Obama is doing, governing happens in the field, not in the lab.

But being a critic makes people feel powerful ... they get to be smarter than him.

that said I will be critical when the administration deserves it... but not when they don't deserve it.

In this case they deserve more than just a little applause.

And yes, I have met people like that in real life... thanks.

:hi:

It is fine to be critical. Great even.

When I do what I do, I often start with a mindset of "what would the ideal be". That gives me a stake in the ground.

Then I review the design, and also investigate the constraints that existed. I look to see if some of them can be over come. So forth.

That gives me a sense of whether the proposed design got as close to the ideal as is possible, under the given constraints.

Doing this takes more work. You have to research the constraints. Spin the thing around and around and around. Stare at it from many directions. And not just accept info that confirms your "ideal".

Its much easier to just trash the thing ... beat it to a pulp, and in doing so, demonstrate how much smarter you are. And then lament what's actually being done. Which happens on DU too much.

I am guilty of being critical but in real life I love the brainstorming process. If it is done right critcisms are never vocalized. That allows any idea to built upon with inputs from everyone involved in the brainstorming session. I've used it countless times during the productions of films/videos and also for engineering/design meetings. The results of a good brainstorming session are not just additive, but rather exponential. It is always fascinating to be a part of such an experience. The best results come when everyone participates constructively.

I feel a lot of people, myself included, felt like they were a part of something big that was going to happen from their participation in the 2008 election of Barack Obama, but now feel disappointed because their ideas have been cast aside far too many times by the Obama administration. They feel left out with their voices unheard. And that leads to criticisms both justified and not justified.

I understand the point you made so well, but it appears as if the peoples' designs have been dismissed while the administration compromised with the very people who almost destroyed our country. Republicans have no intention of having a national brainstorming session for the good of our country, yet President Obama and our democratic-controlled congress allowed republicans to destroy or water down almost every piece of legislation that was eventually passed, often without getting a single vote from republicans. Most of us are wondering why democrats caved in to the enemy when they must have known they weren't going to get any support at all. The people who elected them knew. And that is why we're frustrated, disillusioned and critical.

:hi:

Rec

Its evident every day on this board and everywhere on the planet... unfortunately.

which is what a few cannot accept. Yes... Halliburton is shit, and so are the Mercs (who should be lined up and shot, yes as a former red cross worker they are lower than whale shit)... but I can see the strategic change here.

But for some it is debbie downner all the time!

I will applaud the wars' ends when they actually end, and in the meantime will take a thin, cold solace in the knowledge that we are actually fighting a bit less.

I will celebrate when the dead come back to life, the maimed are healed, and utilities, neighborhoods and surpluses are restored. I can't get truly happy about pounding one's head against a wall because it feels so good when it stops.

It may be worth celebrating that more and more Americans are realizing right now that war ought to end and ought never to be begun, but God damn the stupidity, greed and meanness it took to teach us.

I cannot bring the dead back... so I will leave you to the fantasy.

As to Americans realizing that? Not really. When only 5% have anything to do with this war...

So what's up on the Teevee machine this afternoon? American Idol? The greatest whatever?

Reality is much more people in this country have not even noticed than have.

But at the STRATEGIC LEVEL this is the beginning of the end.

Now I will leave you to the fantasies.

I cannot ignore them, yet, to join a celebration fantasy.

but you are saying it is a bad thing? Perhaps we should surge more troops perhaps? :sarcasm:

Not being able to stop is worse. Not being able to admit we should stop is even worse.

sneaking our way toward something like withdrawal--and fighting less in the short term, at least--are signs of hope.

but I see this as a sign that perhaps we are actually MOVING to the exit.

That said, UNFORTUNATELY starting a war is easy... ending one is not. I wish we could go poof all the troops are out, all the merchants of death are out... alas it doesn't work that way.

...yet it's far too late, and it never shoulda started, and it could still turn into another surge, blah-blah-blah.

This is a strong ray of hopey-changey stuff, though, that I can't diss.

so you are lecturing the wrong person.

Yes I was one of those 15% at one point who ranted and raved against it... mkay?

I just happen to understand why you do not release the dogs of war... when you do, reigning them in is damn HARD.

Have a good day.

I think we are more than done.

:shrug:

damn medium

you are absolutely correct.

put a huge smile on my mind.

Sadly it took such a toll in human treasure.

Peace

A lot of binary "thinking" going on around here.

Probably the same types who unrec PHOTO threads, fer hell's sake.

:rofl:

There will still be combat and Iraq is still a mess and as long as we're a military presence there is never going to be sanity there. This is pure politics. Replacing soldiers with unacknowledged amounts of contractors is nothing less than the ongoing privatization of the US military. This is nothing like Germany or South Korea. You can't just fucking "pretend" that wars are won and then hire contractors and rename combat troops.

Just cynical raw politics. No better than MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

Antiwar vets, antiwar active duty, and their supporters are planning a protest on August 30th to expose the propaganda. Note: it will not get the elaborate coverage given to the tea party.

Nobody wants to hear this. It doesn't matter. It's the facts on the ground.

in fact, a trooper might die tomorrow and the last day we are nominally there.

Hell, US troops have died in places like oh Germany by the way. Unlike Germany, the SOFA requires we do pull out by 2011.

Now if you do not know the difference between active combat operations and this... I cannot help you.

Now if this were propaganda, you know the way bush boy catapulted it, where is the Carrier photo op? THAT was propaganda. This has been so damn understated it is not even funny, That should be your first clue, but it won't.

Again I cannot help people who have trouble processing good news, even when those good news have to be tempered with the hot reality that yes, there are still people behind. Why I stated that.

if only the world were as simple as your view of it

but thank you.

I do comprehend things like high level international law, international treaties and all that shit. So I know a lot of this is being driven by INTERNATIONAL OBLIGATIONS accrued during a BILATERAL TREATY.

How bout you?

Nice personal attack by the way.

Oh and yes, we leaving that military role (beyond embassy protection staff) is supposed to end as of 2011, or are you disputing that? I am also aware that STATE will start doing this shit with Mecs, which is ahem problematic as it MIGHT lengthen local conflict, want me to explain this to you from the POV of a humanitarian worker?

Or not? Quite frankly I'd rather NOT waste my time. This is GOOD news, even with all the fucking caveats.

Is this the end of the occupation? I mean, if we just replace uniformed troops with government paid mercenaries, is that still an occupation under Geneva?

realize many of these mercs are under contract from BOTH governments. SO they are HIRED hands... not an occupation force. It is like, oh hiring oil workers to come in to run your oil industry, sadly... or when King Faisal Hospital hires medical personnel to come in and train their doctors.

Now strictly, mercs should be lined up and shot in a war zone, as we used to do under INTERNATIONAL LAW. Nobody has removed that gem from the Conventions, but nobody has done that for 20 years. So de-facto, we are in a new age of condotieri.

What more do the losers want?!

:woohoo: :party: :bounce:

not

of our President. However, I will give credit where credit is due. It is exceptionally good news that the war is winding down. Congrats on a promise kept.

-P

We are far too used to being dissapointed. It's been a rough decade.

lots and lots of mental help, then we can say it is a good thing. But I think many of those young people are on their way to another war, so I can't really believe the "war" is winding down.

They go from being "combat units" to "advisers."

It is Obama's "Mission Accomplished" moments. Nothing will change until ALL of them are gone, including the contractors.

I can't believe anyone is falling for this shit. This Administration is as Orwellian as the previous one, perhaps more so in some cases.

Obama gets No credit for Anything