Indians express little sympathy for snagging U.S. IT jobs

Resentment continues to rise among Americans as U.S. companies dole out IT jobs at discount wages to workers in India. Though it may come as little consolation to out-of-work IT professionals, some Indians do understand your pain -- while at the same time feeling entirely justified in reaping the rewards of outsourced American jobs. That twinge of sympathy is even less likely to turn the tide of outsourcing than is recent legislation that increases the cost of work visas.

According to a recent poll of 3,500 users conducted by SMS GupShup, an Indian social network, around 46 percent of respondents in Bangalore -- an IT job hub -- agreed with the sentiment that Americans are right to be angry at India for taking their jobs. In Mumbai, around 38 percent said Americans were right to feel angry. In Hyderabad, just over 33 percent could appreciate the ire; in Delhi, just under 33 percent shared the sentiment.

Sympathetic or not, Indian workers predictably aren't about to reject employment opportunities out of pity for their American counterparts. The sentiment among respondents, in fact, is that the U.S. brought the problem on itself. "Of course they're angry, but they brought it on themselves. They taught the world capitalism, and this is what it's all about, isn't it? More for less!" said a respondent referred to only as Divya, an HR professional who has spent 13 years in staffing and recruitment for offshore projects.

The United States has made efforts to reduce the number of jobs outsourced by American companies, most recently by passing a bill that increases visa fees for foreign workers. The fee increases are only levied on companies where over half of U.S.-based employees use work visas. Revenue from those increased fees, by the way, don't go toward job stimulation but rather heightening security on the U.S.-Mexico border.
<snip>

Respondents to the GupShup poll don't appear to think so either. "We are taking their jobs, there's no two ways about it. We're better, faster and more efficient; this backlash from them was bound to happen," said a user by the name of Bharati, an engineer who spent the first two years of her career in the United States. "Their new policies make no difference to us anymore, it's a global market now -- there's plenty of work out there."
<snip>

http://www.infoworld.com/t/work-visas/outsource-indians-express-little-sympathy-snagging-us-jobs-258

no, you're not...you're cheaper.
And the people paying your salaries will happily move to even cheaper pastures when the opportunity presents itself.

I didn't miss that load of horseshit.

there have been some helpful Indians I've spoken with regarding help issues, but quite a few will become very snippy if you ask them to repeat what they said although they're speaking English. I've not encountered many rude American CSR's, they seem to be more chatty (and I chat it up with them because then they do more to help me out). The Indian CSR's also tend to not be as well trained, at least that's been my experience.

Fucking delusional.

And they aren't fucking cheaper either, they are less per hour, but the inefficiencies along with increased management/qc costs consume the rest of the "savings."

Until salaries have equalized globally, capital will always seek the lowest labor costs. Eventually, some jobs will return to the US but only when our salaries have decreased to the point where they reach parity with underdeveloped countries.

n/t

But can you see that REALISTICALLY happening? No. As consumers, we're hooked on cheap goods, and the PTB seem to be unwilling to allow the cost-of-living to rise enough to allow us to purchase goods made domestically and have domestic repair and support. The bottom line rules here. Until that changes, we're all living in OutsourcingLand.

I'm not a businessman so I don't have personal experience, but tons of other factors play into it. Government stability, infrastructure, inventory costs, management, energy, education of the workforce, etc. Plus other expenses like raw materials are going up, making labor a smaller % of the cost of business.

I know with outsourcing to China you save on labor, but you end up paying more than you'd pay if you manufactured domestically for shipping, inventory, management and a few other things, which eats away at the labor savings. So a plant in China where people make $1/hr may only save you 5-10% over the cost of running the plant in the US and paying $15/hr because tons of other expenses are higher in China.

http://theweek.com/article/index/203826/the-end-of-cheap-chinese-labor

Luckily there is no 'new China' in the wings to replace them. No other nation has a population of hundreds of millions of decently educated, obedient, young workers who all live under the same stable government with decent infrastructure like China does. Other nations have shoddy infrastructure, or poor education, or political chaos, or a lack of workers, etc.

Hopefully China pricing itself out of the market will result in power coming back to labor, since labor will have more power vs. capital.

"I make less than you did for doing the same job! KICK ASS!"

In fact, they not only make less, they work longer, but compared to what they were making before outsourcing, they're in much better shape.

Time to stop blaming the folks in India who are doing exactly what people in the US do (look for better jobs) and start blaming the people responsible for the outsourcing.

They're taking pride in underselling other people, and that's contemptible.

did.

"Of course they're angry, but they brought it on themselves. They taught the world capitalism, and this is what it's all about, isn't it? More for less!"

HeHeHe. Reminds me of those old anti-drug commercials where the dad (complete with stupid moustache) yells at his kid who he just caught smoking a joint "Where did you learn how to do this?!?" and the kid repsponds "YOU dad! I learned it by watching YOU!"

The kid is all, "TOTAL BURN, DAD! WHAT NOW? WHAT? WHAT NOW?" and the dad watches the illusion of a good upstanding family crumble right in front of his eyes and the devastation is without end. Thanks for the flashback.

:rofl:

Indians are cheaper, much cheaper than American workers.
Less pay, less benefits. Simple as that.

-- Middle to upper-middle class techies complaining about the H1Bs and the offshoring --- that's cool; they're standing up for labor! They're latter day Samuel Gomperses even! 21st century Wobblies!

-- Working class American complaining about Mexicans taking construction jobs? --- they're racist bigots who should hang their heads in shame!


Spot the disconnect. :shrug:

And your willingness to share it is quite brave.

Cheers!

complaining about BOTH types of labor ripoff. There is NO difference between these.

And about the OP, "We're better, faster and more efficient", WTF? Not from my experience with Indian techs. Most of them I've dealt with are pretty awful. The only thing they have going for them is that they're cheaper, except that some countries are even cheaper than them, and I've heard they're starting to lose jobs to offshoring. Sucks to be them.

The mexican that move here will become americans, and raise OUR GDP with providing good labor, an Indian IT specialist in bangladore does not..nice try Archie Bunker :)

illegal aliens who come here to take construction and agriculture jobs will never become Americans.

Which is the driving force behind this movement for amnesty. It's hard to support either party given that both are willing to sacrifice the livelihood of Americans for political or financial power.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/us/01immigration.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1282921361-2DT0QegYB+51c1oT/PCXVw

The excerpt is from an article from May, 2008 that discussed the decline in remittances due to the economic downturn. However, remittances are still occurring, just in lesser amounts. This is money that is removed from the US economy forever.

For Latin America as a whole, the amount of the money transfers, which are known as remittances, remained virtually flat over the last two years, the development bank reported. It estimated total remittances to the region at $45.9 billion in 2008, an increase of $500 million over 2006.

Mexico, which received $24.7 billion in remittances last year, will be hardest hit by the decrease. The majority of the families of an estimated 3.2 million immigrants who will no longer receive transfers are in Mexico, Mr. Terry, the bank official, said.


*on edit, here is a more recent article as well, from January 2009

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2009/0128/p25s20-woam.html

Over the past decade, entire towns in Mexico have been rebuilt with money sent from immigrants or migrant workers living in the US.

Now, for the first time since Mexico's Central Bank began keeping records (13 years ago), total annual remittances from the US have fallen.

The numbers themselves, released by the Central Bank on Tuesday, are not dramatic. Mexicans sent $25 billion to their families in 2008, down from $26 billion the year before, representing a 3.6 percent decline.

Jose y Juana are working HERE making money for someone HERE, probably some WASP that has no idea that they would not be so rich if they did not have Jose y Juana working for them. Vijay in Bangladore doe NONE of that.

Rather than saving money on lower construction costs, house cleaning, child care, and landscaping they are getting more of a return on their stock investments because the companies that ship jobs overseas will make a higher profit due to decreased labor costs. It's a win-win situation for the top 10%. For the rest of us, not so much.

Which doesn't address the issue of too many workers for too few jobs (just like in the blue collar arena).
It's trite BS.
ALL countries regulate their immigration, and the ones that actually care about their workers are very strict about limits. The level of dishonesty in the immigration discussion is disgusting.

We're global citizens now. Didn't you get the memo? Stop being so xenophobic, and (gasp!) nativist! What have you got against brown people, be they from Mexico and Central/South America or India and Southeast Asia?

If it helps steal the tech edge from India, why not? We got our tech edge in the first place thanks to stealing the best minds the world had, from Albert Einstein to Werner von braun. These immigrants gave us the rockets and nukes that defined our power for years. We wont even get into people like andrew grove (founder of intel), or the fact that many of the small businesses that employ people were started by a bunch of immigrants: restaurants, convenience stores, doctor's offices, many of them founded by people that worked their ass off when they came to this country, and, unlike many native born types, did not expect the world to be handed to them. And let's not even get into the fact that most unions were stocked with immigrant muscle; people would not have respected unions as much if not for the front line immigrants that were willing to get beaten because they knew what they were fighting for.

as far as countries that care about their workers, you cannot care FOR workers if your economy sinks, and part of the reason our economy was good is because we encouraged the better workers to come here and offer the fruit of their labor. It was good enough to last, even though we have a bunch of inept inbreds (i.e. bluebloods) at the top. If you took away the contributions immigrants made, this country would not have ever had a lot worth protecting. Of course, just as the natives in Europe look down on the brown skinned arabs that do the work that makes their cities and farms run, so do their cousins here, who do not realize that behind the services they take for granted, there is someone willing to work very hard, simply to get a taste of the American Dream.

Race to the bottom wages hurts everyone.

So, anyone who disagrees with you is against organized labor, despite the fact I referenced that many immigrants were good ACTIVE members of labor unions? Take a look at a union roster jack, lots of folks whose names end in vowels, who were hated just as much as the present groups whose names end in vowels.

I will tell you, if they banned immigration tomorrow, first, there would be a lot less small businesses to be made, which means less jobs outside of corporate control. Second, the powers that be would still pay Americans crap wages, why, because they CAN, that's why. Do not forget we are a nation founded in the principle of SLAVERY, and when the GOP kills the 14th amendment, you will hear people say "well well, now the black people can go back to picking our cotton instead of getting welfare."

Dehumanizing Hispanics and other immigrants will NOT make the Wasps who run corporations pay "native born american" one penny more, period.

No one is talking about 'banning immigration'. Every country - ALL OF THEM - regulates immigration. Even the US has laws regulating immigration. That's what makes illegal immigrants illegal. Low wage labor has killed the American working class.

Psst...ethnic stereotypes are demeaning, even when they're the so-called positive kind.

Look up many of your small restaurateurs, and small shop owners. Not all of them, but many, are immigrants.

I'm fucking sick of this divide-and-conquer the workers shit.

"We need immigrants because Americans are too soft and lazy to work hard!" Gee, what a fucking stellar talking point that is. So persuasive. Democrats in places like Arizona are getting our clocks cleaned on this issue and it's no wonder because the party is full of tonedeaf elitists who truly believe the cheap labor corporate bullshit.

I never said Americans did not work hard, do NOT put words into my mouth. I said that immigrants work hard and wind up helping the native born in the long run, and yes, that included the unions who were happy with immigrants back when their muscles were useful in making management's nose bleed.

And why does no one state the obvious elephant in the room, the reason they are cheap labor is because we make them illegal, if he had a civilized plan to assimilate immigrants into the fabric, they could then join unions, demand a decent wage, and not be in a position to exploit them! No one talks about the idea that maybe since Hispanics are here, maybe we can have a plan to actually allow them to be Americans, which means they can avoid being as exploited. Gee, that would be like punishing the Anglo-Saxons who are making a mint exploiting them (many of whom probably vote Democrat, sad to say.)

But of course, let's not mention the REAL reason why Democrats get their clocks cleaned, because the are too busy trying to appease the "angry white voter" to show any real principles! Sorry to say, angry white voter will not be appeased, but will gobble up the crack Glenn beck puts out, and then, sweet justice, they will find that their own American companies never intended to pay them a decent wage either! After all, it should have said a lot where these good Americans were willing to move to India just to avoid paying a living wage, just like many are already planning to move to China because China pays even LOWER than India! But go ahead, demonize the brown people who could have been your allies, who would have helped build capital in America, rather than for a corporation that does not care what continent it's slaves are in!

With all due respect, divide and conquer indeed. The foes of honest immigration reform are dividing themselves because they do not want to sit next to us brown people.

It is YOU who are putting words in people's mouths.

Wake up. The employers of a the majority of undocumented workers - the farms, the meatpacking plants, construction firms, hospitality industry, etc. - have NO incentive to change the system. A poor, scared, politically neutered workforce who won't complain and won't report you for violations. An enforcement system that rounds up workers and slaps the employers on the wrist with a small fine, giving the exploiters further leverage. What's the down side for these employers? :shrug:

Reagan's amnesty passed in 1986 and they've had 24 years to clean up their act. The business community likes things just the way they are. If there were real employer sanctions with teeth, you know, like HUGE fines, arrests of business owners, and forfeiture of assets, you bet your butt we'd be seeing some immigration reform pronto.

But no, instead you want to peddle guilt trips and Chamber of Commerce cheap labor talking points. If you think that native born low-skilled American workers have been helped by illegal immigration you are high. Guess who the base of the Democratic party is? Yeah, those people, the ones who aren't doing "jobs Americans won't do" for less than minimum wage and in shitty conditions. It's not the angry white teabaggers who are the problem we face. It's our own voters sitting out the election because they see Dems as caring more about immigrants* and rich business owners than them.





*Before you explode again about that, know that I'm basing this off of actual conversations with actual DEM voters while phonebanking and canvassing.

The reason that the "act" has not been cleaned up is because business does not want it that way. You will not ever get to the root of the problem until you see some RICH BASTARD/BITCH in handcuffs. I have always said, if you read me, that we will not address the problem until we focus on the EMPLOYERS.

As far as guilt trips, the reality I see has nothing to do with guilt. but the reality I see every day. No, I do not think you intended to Demonize Brown people, but when you focus on the migrants, and not the people causing the problem, you do add to that. I will not discount your experience phonebanking and canvassing, nor will you when I tell you that I am sick and tired of being treated like some foreign invader when I was born here, raised here, and my Spanish is barely enough to order dinner. I will say this much, a lot of those people you talked too are the people feeding the Tea Party, the ones that had no problem using brown labor when they wanted the union dues, but now that that being a certain skin color no longer is a guarantee that someone is lower than you on the totem pole, they act like "what happened to my country?" It is still your country, about as much as when your ancestors got off the boat, the difference is, the rich bastards/bitches that run this country no longer feel that they have to keep the blue collar middle class happy, or for that matter, the white collar middle class. The White people are on the menu, same as the brown people, the difference being, that the rich still know that, instead of attacking THEM, it is easier to blame those damned immigrants. THAT is why you do not see huge fines, it's the same reason the South allowed slavery, and would if they still could, because many of the white bluee collar middle class would gladly run the plantations and mills if they thought they could benefit. They do not want to admit that, to the powers that be, they are just as disposable as everyone else.

Now, if you are talking about reform that means the rich bastards and bitches go to jail, then I will give you some credibility, everything else is just a Lou Dobbs talking point. As far as the Democratic base goes; here's a new flash, it does not exist, because everybody wanted to get their bit of the pie. Until everyone, and I mean everyone, is rallied to put the heads of the rich on pikes, then we will be so many damned pawns.

"The money isn't spent to increase jobs, but to upgrade border security"

What he meant to say is the money isn't spent to increase jobs for me.

"that's different!"

:shrug:

up til very recently you could buy a UAW-made Corolla, Tacoma, or Matrix from the NUMMI plant and still support Labor.

Of course, now there's just no fucking excuse, but they'll still do it.

And yet here she is, one of our most passionate voices for "labor", musing about purchasing one...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7912529&mesg_id=7912529

Edit: the poster in question had a big ol' "Union Yes!" avatar when that post was made, btw. :eyes:

even when Detroit rolled out gas guzzling, poorly made cars that we should have bought them? I am amazed that GM only came out with more energy efficient cars, after we BOUGHT the company and forced them to. GM could have had electric cars ten years ago if they wanted to.

New cars designs don't spring into existence fully-formed like Athena from the forehead of Zeus. Those cars were coming well before the bailout.

overseas for years, just not selling them here. If we could figure out the reasoning behind that decision, we'd be way ahead.

Car companies will sell you anything you're willing to buy. If we wanted cars made from compressed catshit someone would sell it to us. Blaming the car companies for SUVs misses the point that SUVs sold like hotcakes for twenty years.

I'm a bit car deaf, but I've heard my husband and others talk about renting a Ford in Europe and getting a zippy, fuel efficient car. They rent the same model in the States and it's a lazy fuel hog.

Mileage tests use different methods in the US, so figures can vary widely on identical models.

Besides, that's still not a UAW-made car, so it hardly matters. No different than buying a KIA.

same car. The consensus is that the European version handles better, responds more quickly and uses less fuel.

Again, I've seen GM cars overseas that are smaller on the outside and just as roomy on the inside. Tardis technology, maybe?

I imagine that your alleged allegiance to Union Workers must then follow mere popularity and market-- regardless of product.

Or the "Labor Activists" who are only concerned about the labor within one set of imaginary red and blue lines on a map rather than all workers everywhere...

:shrug:

If people want a fair deal, they should look to the people who are actually abusing and exploiting them: the employer class, and the right-wing politicians letting them do it.

Always has. The blue collar worker is disdained here.

You say something about manual labor jobs, and theree's a big "so what" coming along.

Most of my family has manual labor jobs.

until the teacher's union was affected. Then the shit hit the fan.

Those poor slobs with the dirty fingernails in Detroit? Who cares; I love my Honda!

it is not as simple as Honda = anti-union.

Hondas (for example) are made in non-union Southern shops or imported. If you support Labor you buy products made by unions when possible. When you make a conscious decision to purchase a non-union product when a union-made product is available you have spat in the eye of Labor.

:rofl:

Are you going to get the easy flow elbow surgery?

:rofl:

You've made an assertion with no backing whatsoever. Defend your thesis.

I love a big cup of absolutism and dogma in the morning too.

Don't even need immigration policies if people go to jail for wage violations.

We need documentation and pay records including returned checks in concert with random location checks that match workers with pay records. We catch somebody on site below minimum (or arguably prevailing) and somebody is going to see a judge. If somebody sees a judge too many times the operation is nationalized and sold off.

Illegals shouldn't be taking jobs in this country, and neither should h1bs.

Neither Mexicans nor Indians are stealing anything, corporations are GIVING the jobs to those workers because it means more money for them. The problem is that the anger is being directed at the wrong parties. Should be directed at the corporations for doing it, and the government for allowing it to happen.

Create your own jobs you fucking parasites.

By underbidding the US workforce, they are creating an economic climate that promotes the hiring of Indians over Americans.

Oh, that's kind of what DU is.

Seriously, every time I turn around there's a person with a masters or PHD posting.

While thinking it makes them oh-so-hip and multicultural?

knowingly putting an American out of work.

They're taking jobs they need to survive--jobs that pay more than pretty much anything else they can find where they live. Some of them probably realize they're just being used until somebody cheaper comes along but they're not going to give up an opportunity while they have it. The real fault lies with the greedy bastards who sacrifice American jobs so they can make more $$$ and pay significantly less in wages and benefits.

"We are taking their jobs, there's no two ways about it. We're better, faster and more efficient; this backlash from them was bound to happen,"

Keep telling yourself that. In a few years some dude in another dirt-poor nation will be saying the same thing when he has your job because he'll do it for half of what you do.

Really badly.

The funny part is that that's exactly what the US IT/software guys and gals used to say... until the Indian IT/software guys and gals took that spot of self-satisfaction.

The other funny thing, to me, is to see these IT peoples calling on the government to take action— but only the labor supporters mention unionizing or taking action against employers; I haven't seen that idea typed out by any IT "voices".

If I were an living in India, I'd be snapping to get these jobs too. Hell of an improvement over what most people in India are getting. I can hardly blame the people there for having the "audacity" to take a job.

How about we look at where the real blame lies...in corporate greed.

But, we're gaining on them.

USA! USA!

And off-shored the steel-makers' jobs, then the autoworkers' jobs, the rust belt blue collar union workers became the butt of white collar educated professionals and skilled tech jokes, often saying, that they should have gone to college!!

But then by the late-90s, the white collar professionals' employment in the tech, legal and medical fields began to be outsourced due to broadband internet...what goes around..comes around!!! There have been AND still are awards and recognition given to corporations who do the most outsourcing each year.

I remember reading an article in Wired magazine, ca. 2004, during the Shrub's presidency, by a professor named M. Gregory Mankiw, who was an economic advisor in his administration, responding to complaints made by those who were bleeding jobs in Silicon Valley in the tech fields, that outsourcing was a "good" thing for our country, and that those who were being affected needed to take the "next" step up and become idea and conceptual gurus...lol!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._Gregory_Mankiw

You need a bottom step. If you don't have one, you're stuck.

That's where the US is now.

We'll careening down that cliff until everyone here works for next to nothing.

And that includes white-collar jobs.

They hire nobody except Indians.

If the tables were turned, we would take foreign jobs. India has good IT training, and a capable work force. I blame the people who decide that company profit comes before country.

Fuck them all !

http://www.cafepress.com/du_store.414737628

They have families to feed too. The real villains are the corporations who are doing the outsourcing.

and pin it on people

what better way for the corps to act innocent? shift the blame to some easily identifiable group.
and people fall for it pretty easily



PS:

some interesting info


The U.S. goods trade deficit with China was $227 billion in 2009.
The U.S. services trade surplus with China was $6 billion in 2008


The U.S. goods trade deficit with India was $4.7 billion in 2009.
The U.S. services trade deficit with India was $1.6 billion in 2008.


China has a 50 TIMES bigger trade deficit vis-a-via America than India does.

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/china
http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/south-central-asia/india

Funny how every other DU post is all about the evils of corporations, but as soon as outsourcing/offshoring comes up, the vitriol towards Indians goes into overdrive.

Illegal immigrants from Latin America are given the romanticized treatment here, replete with "They're just trying to feed their families," etc., but as soon as an Indian takes a "good job," all hell breaks loose.

My favorite are the complaints about outsourced customer service -- not complaints about outsourced jobs, which is a valid complaint provided you're consistent on the whole issue -- but the complaints about "I can't understand their accent. I don't want to talk to a foreigner." It's only when we have to deal directly with a foreigner that we complain. Of course, there's not a peep about the illegal day laborers because one rarely has to interact with them even though they are taking far more jobs from Americans than Indians are.

widespread in that part of the world, and has to do with some of their response. Let's not forget that people everywhere are susceptible to stereotyping and "othering" - indeed, there are several examples in this thread.

Expecting people who live in a largely impoverished country with a colonial history to empathize with the economic struggles of citizens of (what they perceive as) a rich, large and militaristic superpower is somewhat unrealistic. I'd suspect many of them have a naive view of what life in America is like for the average person, confusing what they see in Hollywood movies as being representative.

As far as the jobs go, blaming workers in distant lands is not a solution. The capitalists who exploit workers worldwide are the ones responsible for the global economic crisis, but they would rather have us at each others throats.

/edit: added a paragraph