I encountered a Muslim woman in my local supermarket this morning.

She was wearing a burka, fully veiled. No one was openly harassing her, but people were just avoiding her, while snickering behind her back. No one would look at her, and when she sought help from a stock boy, he acted as if she were invisible. I had no idea what to do, so I summoned up the sole bit of Arabic I know, approached her, and said, "As-Salaam-Alaikum" (Peace be unto you). All I could see were her eyes, but at that moment those eyes conveyed more genuine emotion than Glenn Beck at his weepy worst. I thought for a moment she was going to hug me. Of course, she did not, but she responded with the traditional "Alaikum salaam". At that point all I could do was shrug and tell her, "That's all I know". She simply nodded her head and said, "Thank you."
The entire encounter took maybe 30 seconds, but I can't stop thinking about it. Those lying mother-fuckers - Beck, Palin, Limbaugh, and the entire FoxNoise crew, can sputter to their heart's content that their rhetoric is not "anti-Islam", but this woman would probably beg to disagree, and she is bearing the brunt of their hate.

on edit: typo

you for making a difference for all of us today.

as her religion is of the Beck/Limbaugh troglodytes. Without the perpetuation of 8th century desert mythologies she wouldn't be mandated to wear that ridiculous and imprisoning burka nonsense.

I would support a ban on burqas. Sorry, I know that isn't the point of this thread, but that woman is possibly being oppressed by her own community.

Is that it would just condemn the woman to not being able to leave her house and ever go outside by herself. Don't think that's too helpful.

Better to condemn the practice and put pressure on those few fundamentalist Muslims who do still force it on women, to assimilate, than to pass a blanket ban on full-body veils.

Nothing will change without changed minds.

What basis do you have for this argument? I see your point, but, is there anything that substantiates this argument?

But how does any society "condemn" a practice without acting like the onlookers / other people in this story?

I would hope for your consistency and that you would support a ban on breast implants, tanning salons, anorexia, daisy dukes, micro-mini skirts, halter tops, ect.

"Victims of religion / victims of society..." ultimately, it all comes down to one's choice and no individual person is anymore more of a "victim" than another.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to insult anyone in their pursuit of greater wisdom of things they don't normally think about.

The ban on burqas is supported in many european nations as a way to ease oppression of women. I have to say that I agree. You are naiive if you think a woman wearing a burqa is free to do anything. She's like a dog on a chain.

Breast implants are another dysfunction of society altogether, and not related to any oppressive religion.

"Daisy Dukes", "miniskirts" "haltertops"..... to you I say, **** off, because I will wear them if I want to. Can fundies wear the same clothes if they want to?

But if she feels pressured into it then I feel bad for her. I don't think I could do that. Too hot.

:sarcasm:

I go check the mail in pajamas and bunny ears, and if it's hot outside, I water the plants wearing a bikini. Go stick that "sarcasm" in your ass, if you like.

Brandon Teena.

Oh that's right. You can't.

I mean, have you really missed the last 60 years of feminist thought? Just because a social convention is enforced by other modes than physical violence (sometimes, anyway, see above) doesn't make it any less coercive.

is a non sequitur here.
Brandon was always a man, always male. It would insult his memory to say otherwise.
If we believe the mind to be supreme over the body, then we must conclude that even when he had the female name and female clothing, he was still a man.
Brandon was forced to wear female clothing because of the cultural intolerance of transgender people.
It had nothing to do with modesty, immodesty, fashion or precedent.
Nor did his distress and ultimate murder have to do with an immigrant culture.

Are you really interested in discussing this with me?

Brandon Teena, now there is a tragedy.

Why would she?

How many males would wear them? Where are they?

The burqua is a symbol of male oppression vs women -- that's all --

was wearing her burka the way we might wear uncomfortable clothing at Easter or put ashes on our foreheads on Good Friday if we were Catholic. Nuns in America wore habits that were a lot like burkas all day long when I was a girl. That's not that long ago. Sorry if I already answered you on this.

:sarcasm:

Ash Wednesday is the beginning of Lent. It is the only day of the calendar on which Catholics wear ashes.

Good Friday is the day on which Christ was crucified and died on the cross. That day involves no ashes, but Catholics have a special service referred to as "Stations of the Cross."

Nuns, to my knowledge, have never covered their faces, and their traditional habits generally show a bit more of the female form than, say, a chador.

The "husband made me do it" stuff is way overestimated.

can wear a bikini that someone wants her to wear?

Are breast implants the American punishment for being a woman? I could make a good argument that breast implants are much worse than burkas. Why do women get breast implants (other than for medical reasons after a mastectomy)? Can you imagine going through surgery to have breast implants? Much worse than wearing a burka.

response JD!!

But that shows cultural insensitivity if you are not willing to accept the fact that other cultures are different from your own.

If another culture treats women like shit, then why not just say so?

more Americanized? Why assume she is married at all?

Why stereotype her when we don't know anything about her?

Wait... I just tried to tell my wife to wear a burkha and she said no.

I don't understand. The DU says I control her by virtue of being her husband.

:rofl:

rather than shown a bit of kindness from a random stranger in a supermarket

She could have thought of the whole situation critically and made that choice.

Or she is following years of intense indoctrination, emotionally beaten down until she accepts the orders of her male masters as truth.

This is why I don't accept Muslim enclaves being allowed to conduct their affairs through Sharia.

It is highly likely the women would get screwed under such a system, either intimidated or indoctrinated into accepting misogynistic justice.

free choice is something quite different -- free and informed choice --

and feeling the protection of democracy which should guarantee freedom from

religious oppression.

A woman who does not conform to your desires and expectations of her is mindless, incapable of rational choice, and needs your paternal guiding hand to make her decisions for her, because she is obviously helpless and deluded.

Yep, sounds like you're an American "feminist" alright. Tell me, do you ever wonder why this style of feminism hasn't caught on outside the US and Western Europe?

Here's a tip; Not every woman on earth desires to conform to the Anglo-Protestant standards you hold, and many are quite offended by assertions such as yours, that the choices she makes are invalid because YOU did not make them for her.

I suggest you pick up "Paradise Beneath Her feet" by Isobel Coleman. It could go a long way towards introducing you to the world of Islamic and Muslim feminism. I'm sure you'll go on dismissing the women accounted in that book as being mindless nothigns incapable of free thought, but still wouldn't hurt to have a look at it.

I suggest you listen more and talk less, about the way women get treated.

I suggest that you pay more attention to the fact that other women are fully capable of making lucid and rational choices, even if you disagree with them.

Also? A vagina is not a replacement for a brain. If being a woman were all it took to "get" feminism, this one would be heading NOW:

It's an actual field of study, after all. You can take courses in it. even if you choose not to, there's plenty of material available for research. hell, you can even head out to the rez and get some information from primary sources.

Seriously, if you were trying to make a point here, it was a pretty silly attempt.

Go read that book I mentioned. it's no college course, but it'll serve as a nice start-up for information on the subject of feminism in Islam. Here's the Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/Paradise-Beneath-Her-Feet-Transforming/dp/1400066956

They're not all stupid mindless dumbasses who need your control.

You were the one who made an attempt to make the point that I was similar to Sarah Palin, which fell flat.

I have zero interest in telling Native Americans how they SHOULD FEEL. Maybe you need to get over yourself and not try to tell females how they SHOULD FEEL.

Then that would seem to be your own psyche speaking to you. I simply mentioned that if having a vagina automatically made a person an informed feminist, she would be chairing NOW.

After all, that was your argument. That your possession of a uterus somehow makes you more informed than someone who's put time and effort into actually learning the subject. To use your mention of Indian studies, what you did was kind of as if you had told Dee Brown or Peter Mathissen to sit down and shut up because your grandmother was a cherokee princess so that makes you more informed than either of them.

I'm not telling anyone how they should feel. I'm telling people that they are acting like assholes and demonstrating the same paternalistic, misogynistic attitudes they are pretending to loathe when they dismiss the notion that other women may be able to make rational and informed choices.

I think you're the one who needs to explore some self-getting-over, Quantess. While you're at it, set those patriarchal bastard strawmen on fire, 'cause girlfriend, you do not need them.

before passing out.

:hi:

"girlfriend" didn't work, but I can understand you're frustration.

This is a complex issue, with layer upon layer and yes, many of us are like fish and water - we don't recognize when we're spouting paternalism when we think we're carrying the banner of feminism.

Sharia Law should not be allowed to be practiced. No way.

Having said that, I also don't think we can judge or presume that a woman dressed in full hijab or burka has been compelled to do so. Is it probably? Probably, yes. But just the assumption takes away her choice of free practice of religion, and unless there is actual proof that she has been compelled to wear said attire by her community/husband/father/etc.

No. Hasidic courts of law? Of course. There is only one law of the land here in the US, and no other legal courts should be allowed.

Sharia LAW is a problem, not Muslim customs or Islamic practices.

It's not law as we mean governmental law. It's religious practice, so it is no more than Muslim custom, and not much different in context than a Papal decree or kosher law, as other examples of religious laws.

the medieval christian laws in the US forbid being naked in public. I want to be as free as the Amazon tribesmen but the American laws force me to wear clothes. Isn`t this barbaric?

I am all for the clothing required laws.

I mean, there are nudist communities in this country and you would be free to go naked as the day you were born.

But hey, let's face it, in the US it is not illegal for a man to walk about in public topless, but it is for a woman. So we have a bit of our own double standard here.

Still, the burka takes it to a whole new level. I think part of the problem is not just islamaphobia or cries of sexism. I think there's something about us that feels uncomfortable when we can't see the other person's face. I'm not talking about Halloween, Costume Parties or Masked Galas when many people (men and women) choose to cover all or part of their face. In everyday life, looking at some one's face is how we make a connection with them, determine if we can trust them, get a sense of them as a person, etc. When we can't see their face, we have a harder time making that connection. If they can see ours, we may even feel vulnerable or exposed. Or maybe they just stand out as an oddity - like the person wearing clothes at a nude resort.

Or maybe I'm just projecting my thoughts on others. The burka makes me uncomfortable, angry, mistrustful. But I see a woman in a hijab (just covering her hair, face exposed) and I don't have such negative feelings, although sometimes there is an idle curiosity about whether she's really donning it voluntarily. The way some women wear the hijab, it almost becomes a fashion accessory. I know that's not the point of it, but when it is pretty or coordinates well it helps me believe this really was a choice and no longer seems like a symbol of oppression.

Used to be quite common. Women in America have the freedom to make choices. That's the law. We all enjoy religious freedom. If a woman chooses to wear a burka or a wig or a hat or a shawl or nothing at all on her head, that is her business.

on the lack of seeing the other person's face -- i could always see the nun's face in her full habit -- and, it certainly wasn't always nice (especially just before my "punishments")

I'm in L.A. and we see quite a few different kinds of religious garb. I have seen a few with that mask. I'm not sure that the wearing of a mask in that fashion should be permitted in all situations, say when cashing a check or speaking to a police officer, since it makes photo identification very difficult. If a person is just shopping, why do I need to see that person's face. Of course, I might feel differently if I were running a store -- since the security cameras would not permit photo identification, let's say, of a shoplifter wearing a face mask.

I see the habits nuns used to wear as more like a hijab.

And I do sometimes wonder why a woman would choose such a life, or feel "called" to it. I'm a little suspicious of the Catholic Church now because of everything they are doing to limit reproductive freedom. Preaching to your congregation is one thing, but threatening Pro-Choice elected officials that they can't take communion is another entirely.

If Imans in America would stand up and start screaming about the "unborn children" in this country, the Right Wing Religious types would fall in love with Islam.

All the major religions are misogynistic. It is one reason I am an atheist. But the hatred and ridicule on display in this country over Muslims is disgusting. Sometimes I really hate this country and Americans in general. Ignorant fucking pieces of shit. Unfortunately people like Palin and Beck usually live to ripe old ages instead of dying of painful illnesses like they deserve.

I'm just a little baffled that suddenly Islam is flavor of the month at DU.

that or any religion. i don't believe in defending any religion. but.... i do believe in defending others right to religion.

i had to clarify often.

And you ever see their funny hats? They look like Hassidic Jews - and don't get me started on THEM.

they are perfectly free to leave their Amish community if it is not truly in their hearts, and they are welcome to join the mainstream culture if they choose.

Fundamental Muslim women, not so much.

I have Amish relatives, third cousins and such. They can leave, but their families must shun them.

No "honor killings"?

By the way, thank you for posting. I think the Amish are interesting.

She wasn't beaten for it. She was officially "disowned", but this "disowned" did not extend as far as, for example, not still talking with her family, and visiting with them, and they with the rest of us, just as might normally be expected. Though her parents are now both gone (at a fairly young age: I guess that comes along with being a Palestinian refugee), our families still mingle, Slovak-American Catholics and Palestinian-American Muslims, side by side at family get-togethers.

Honor killings and beatings by ultra conservative religionists of virtually all stripes do occasionally occur, and they deserve condemnation for the crimes that theu are. But American Muslims, and Muslims in general, are not as a rule the stereotypical troglodytes of right wing fantasies. Get to know a few before you go about spreading bigotry.

We get to be thankful for escaping a righteous beating. And if you are more or less a heathen, well then you got off too easy! Come back for your righteous beating in the name of God, Mohammed, the Lord, etc, (insert deity here).

American Muslims as a general rule don't beat apostates, any more than I was beaten when I became a Catholic apostate. In fact, any American Muslim who went further than formal disapproval (aka my sis-in-law's not really real "disowning") would be thought poorly of by their fellow Muslims -- indeed, if warranted, reported to the police. And while I don't have first hand knowledge of Islam as practiced throughout the world, most of the horror-show stories seem to emanate from just a few countries/cultures.

Hell, the Muslim couple I'm currently most in contact with is fully supportive of their transgendered teen, going so far as to pay for some of the surgeries. Is that sufficiently far from a "righteous beating" for you (given that a majority of non-Muslims in the US, religious or not, would have at least considered in passing a "righteous beating" if their teen daughter suddenly announced she was transgendered)?

I know you really really want to hate Islam, and it doesn't appear you want to let facts get in the way of the right wing generated drivel you've bought into. But please, at least give the facts a moment's consideration.

Actually, I understand that Daniel Webster, the throwback who is running against Alan Grayson in Florida, opposes divorce. But he's the only high-profile person I know of who does. So if a fundamentalist Muslim or Christian woman wants to get a divorce, she has only to go down to her local courthouse and get the forms. A lot of communities have centers where people can get help in going through the process. So, Muslim women in America are free to leave their husbands and their communities just like other women.

are they not aware that second amendment gives them the right to "bare arms"???

funding for the purpose of killing the enemies of the god Am that scare me.

Logical reasoning skills are rare.

The importance of what 11 Bravo was trying to convey is getting lost.

neighbors in the hopes that they won't hang us for our sane beliefs.

Because they might, if we act like assholes.

in churches in many cultures not so long ago. Covering one's hair has been and still is an expression of religious devotion in many cultures. I have heard that Jewish women who are Orthodox sometimes (or maybe always) wear wigs. If you remember the days when Catholic nuns wore habits, you will know that not very long ago, they wore something akin to a burka.

I don't understand this, but I remember that, years ago, when I went with a high school friend to her synagogue, she loaned me a hat to wear. Protestants may be the exception in that I do not recall that Protestants are urged to wear shawls or hats or head coverings in church. It may be that the Amish and some very fundamentalist sects do this. It could be that Mennonites sometimes wear headcoverings.

So, don't think that the burka is such a strange thing. I'm glad I was never expected to wear one, but I can't judge this.

I do remember wearing hats and white gloves at Easter when I was younger. I really liked that. Maybe some women like wearing burkas. I wouldn't know since I have never tried it. Have you?

Roman Catholics do not require them any more, except in exceptional circumstances, like meeting the Pope. Certainly you remember first ladies wearing black dresses or suits and a black lace head covering when posing with the Pope.

Amish, some Mennonites and related groups require women to wear a little cap, which is often of a very lightweight material most if not all of the time. The size of the cap varies.

What DUers refer to as "Fundamentalists," like Southern Baptists, do not require women to wear a head covering at any time.

In the old days, women and girls wore hats to religious services much more often because that was the way to get dressed up, and all people dressed up for church (and other occasions) much more back then. The Easter outfit was a new dressed up spring ensemble. I'm old enough to remember wearing a head band trimmed with lace and ribbon instead of a hat. The head band look was haute couture for little girls in 1962! I only lacked the white cotton anklets with the lace trim at the top. No lace for Amanda!

8th century myths? You wanna know a REAL fucking myth? The myth of a know it all who is certain there is nothing beyond the god of scienctism which, like most gods, is false..

Why should this woman be any different?

I just feel a bit sickened by the sudden DU lovefest for all things Islamic. Honestly, it's a bit insane that we're suddenly rushing to embrace a religion so anathema to Progressive values just because the right-wing fucktards have their panties in a wad over the Finacial District mosque.

Behaving as though fundamentalist religion is a beautiful thing is nutty, IMHO.

There's nothing to be done.
Even if burkas are banned, I'm sure the law will be defied.
And ultimately, even if complaints are made, the women will pay the higher price for wearing the burka.
In patriarchal religions and societies, WOMEN ALWAYS DO.

others have already argued with you and said most of what I was thinking, so I won't bother. maybe she is wearing it for the wrong reasons, maybe not, but don't start that BS in a topic like this. this isn't the place.

This is a fantastic story. I know a similar woman, though she can speak English very well. I see her at least once week on my campus. One of the nicest people I have ever met, hands downs. Fortunately, she always seems to be very happy.

Funny thing is, everyone on campus gets along with her very, very well. I think the problem most people have is the language barrier more than anything.

However many people teach people that, in my view, for their own reasons.

That was very kind of you to do.

not the tangents.

you rarely see that in America . i wonder how the same people would have responded had she worn a hijab instead.

though i'm sure many are bigots .

and I have stepped in to defend them as well.

One ugly American started screaming at a young woman wearing the Hijab... so I stepped in, and called him on his racism.

of such discrimination and hate that we witness, however seemingly small it may appear. That is the ONLY way to shut this shit down. People get away with it because others don't speak up and pretty soon more and more feel like they can treat a certain group that way with no consequences.

prove me wrong folks

That I mistrust the burka, but not the hijab. I guess it has to do with being able to see the face. I don't think I would be openly hostile to a woman in a burka, but my pity and distaste may be apparent.

But I'm sure just as there are people like the OP who are more tolerant and open than me, there are also people less tolerant who would have reacted the same to the hijab.

all these blowhards are outright liars.

this is reminding me more and more of the stories my dad told of Poland in the pre war years.

I would hate to look at the world like you. I think I see the last ounce of humanity left in this country circling the drain.

Or at least, a victim of fundamentalist religion.

edit: wouldn't you rather look through your own or my eyes, than having to wear a stupid burka like the poor woman in the story?

Since the OP refers to looking her in the eyes, it sounds more like a niqab.

"Since the OP refers to looking her in the eyes, it sounds more like a niqab."

His respect for women and all minorities is overwhelming in his respect and desire for equality for them!Personally I think Fred Nile is so representative of the motivation I see from some here at DU when it comes to Muslims...

btw, those who want to dictate what women can't wear are every bit as much of a fundie scumbag as those who want to dictate what women wear...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/23/2934503.htm


And here's some of Fred's other 'progressive' views...

Following the Moscow theatre hostage crisis in 2002 Nile asked whether the then state minister of police would consider banning full body coverings like those worn by the Chechen terrorists, from parliament and places of public gathering to prevent the carriage of weapons or explosive devices. On the 23rd of June 2010, Nile introduced a bill into the Legislative Council to criminalise the public wearing of any face covering which prevents the identification of the wearer,<11> including the burqa and niqab. Further discussion of the bill will not occur until September 2010.<12> The major parties have not indicated how they will vote on the bill.<13>

On 10 March 2007, Nile raised concern that Australian embassy officials posted in Islamic nations were favouring the immigration of Muslim over Christian refugees. Nile called for a moratorium on Muslim immigration to Australia: "Australians deserve a breathing space so the situation can be carefully assessed," he told an audience in North Ryde.<14>

Nile asked for the removal of the then Australian Muslim leader Sheik Taj El-Din Hilaly after the sheik placed the blame for sexual assault on the female victims.<15>

In December 2007 Nile raised concerns about the construction of a Muslim school in the Sydney suburb of Camden and was invited to attend many events opposing the school.

As a consequence of Nile's public position on Muslim immigration, he has received widespread condemnation and alleged death threats from individuals within the Islamic community.<16>

On June 22, 2010, Nile introduced an anti-burqa bill into the New South Wales Legislative Council, seeking to ban the enveloping Muslim head and body cover for women from that Australian state <17>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Nile#Political_views

Good points, Violet Crumble. Some of us seem to ally ourselves with completely reprehensible people in the name of "feminism."

and on the other hand you're offended the OP was being nice to her?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

In San Francisco, maybe twice. Mostly see the hijab worn. We have a lot of Asian women from Malaysia here who practice Islam and of course many from the Middle East.

That was a nice gesture by the way.. very kind indeed.

But people don't go out of their way to ignore them, either.

talk about Christian values all.the.time. But they miss the crux of it. They miss the lesson in the parable of the good Samaritan.


And it's like they've erased entire passages of scripture.

Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(King James Bible)


As-Salaam-Alaikum, Bravo.

to say that she "isn't their enemy", and therefore the bible allows them to treat her like shit!

Kudos to the OP for doing what she did! We need more of that in society. If Jesus were alive today, he would have pushed aside the rest of those who claimed to be "Christians" there and gave the OP here a blessing!

And this from an agnostic who respects the hell out of people religious or not, who show good spirits and kindness to their fellow man/woman!

of course, this was pre-9/11, and in a heavily Arab neighborhood, so the hate factor wasn't there -- but I kept wanting to scream, "You're in New Jersey! The governor is a woman! (at the time, Christie Todd Whitman) You don't need to wear that here!"

They stare, grab their families to point them out as well as pull back a bit to watch them from a distance. Guess what? The same kind of behavior is quite often shown to Goths, scene kids and anyone else not fitting into the "norm."

I hope everyone is as kind to the Goths--they need lovin', too. ;)

and I see the same behavior. Hijabs are more commonly seen than burkas, but both appear fairly often, especially here in Saint Paul. We have some Amish here, along with some conservative Mennonites, and they get stared at, too. Of Goths, we have many. They get a little less attention, though, it seems to me.

they're doing it wrong! :evilgrin:

A burka is pretty much an everyday sight. I have never noticed any friction between Catholics and Muslims. I suspect a lot of the crap is drummed up by the media with the help of prosperity gospel con men masquerading as preachers.

:evilgrin:

Hell, I was there at the beginning of the Goth scene when it split from punk. Goth chicks rock!

a couple of weekends ago i was driving into the mountains to help a friend clear some a national trail that runs through the state..
on my way to the trailhead i got behind an amish horse and buggy...

they pulled onto the shoulder to let me pass , and as i did...

a teenage girl stuck herself out the back... stuck her tounge out at me ... and then made the metal sign(devil sign) at me...

lol.

i laughed for a good solid 5 minutes.

In my experience most local people don't regard the Amish as anything other than "quirky neighbors."

I said "most."

I loved it when my bf and I went to Mammoth Cave Nat Park last year and they had stables for the horses of the Amish that visited.

Mammoth Cave is awesome btw. But opt for the 6 hour wild cave crawl. Not the touristy asphalt stroll.

:-)

In my travels, I see every different color, dress, talk and action in the United States. Today I am in an area that is predominately wealthy and Indian. I'll be headed in a week to a community in Alabama that is predominately poor and Black. I have done this job for 5 years and have been to most every corner of the United States. All we can do sometimes is smile, help carry a bag or give a few dollars. Too many people bear the brunt of ignorance and hate. Thank you.

Thanks for writing this OP. It gives me an idea for a documentary film about prejudice in America. It could be nothing more elaborate than filming 'ordinary' people's reactions to a woman in a burkha as she conducted her business in public - just everyday errands that wouldn't even raise an eyebrow when performed by anyone else.

Maybe I have unrealistic expectations, but I believe it would be beneficial to hold up a mirror to 'upstanding citizens' whose xenophobia & bigotry compel them to act like boors toward people from other cultures.

It's the burqa.

The very same woman could go out in normal American street attire and no one would act any differently to her than they would to anyone else.

Ever heard the song "Signs" by the Five Man Electrical Band? It has a line in it that's exactly about this effect.

And the sign said long haired freaky people need not apply
So I tucked my hair up under my hat and I went in to ask him why
He said you look like a fine upstanding young man, I think you'll do
So I took off my hat I said imagine that, huh, me working for you
woah!

the burqa represents an unknown... we need to encourage people to communicate and learn


I shave my head and while it has become more acceptable for women to do so, I still have varied reactions from people that do not understand why a woman would have no hair (save cancer treatments)

It's just too much trouble to do it every day, it takes a lot longer than shaving my beard and I'm not always consistent about doing that either.

Besides, I have a huge head and look like Beldar Conehead and get a strange urge to return to Remulak when I have a shaved pate.

I have a tiny pea head and look ridiculous but I love not having hair

Of the top film heroes of the last 100 years?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Ripley

I use what I call urban camouflage - it seems like I'm an ordinary, middle aged nurse, when I'm actually a polyamorous hippy living in a stable triad. I used to wear it on my sleeve but swimming upstream in this very provincial, frightened nation got tiring, that and I have a child now.

there was a program on TV recently... kind of a candid camera... actor played a store owner who refused to serve people of color, Hispanics, Muslims, etc (actors also)... the reaction of the other customers in the store was recorded... very sad that most customers tolerated the bigotry and in many cases encouraged it

God liked their sort better. Obama was one of the people claiming that his 'religion' meant he was 'sanctified' and others were not, and should not be given equal rights ever, no matter what. God would be mad, he says.
The show was called The McClurkin Hour featuring Ricky Warren as Trigger.

worth watching...

http://abcnews.go.com/WhatWouldYouDo/video/stop-muslim-discrimination-11347387

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfsS3pIDBfw

Good job. :hug: :hug: :hug:

:hug:

We are all human beings on planet Earth...how hard is it to be kind to our fellow travelers.

:grouphug:

I'm nice to everyone, but especially so now to those who are vilified by the FoxBots.

You're my favorite infantryman. You did a wonderful thing there. Just for her to hear kind words from a friendly voice must have done her a world of good. You're doing the Lord's work, my friend...

I'm glad someone brought a little humanity to her.

It's unfortunate that so many are giving humanity a bad name by abandoning it.

:hi:

I was a nun at one time and wore a habit, I don't remember anyone complaining at that time.

So, I can go after Sarah because she wears mini skirts and dresses? or dresses sexually?

I think the "brown people" of all origins in America should
file a class action law suit against Faux News.

They are guilty as charged where inciting hate is concerned.

BHN

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They're not a fkn foreign species.

...implies that they are.

I just say hello, and she nods to me

Otherwise she could be beaten and disfigured for talking to you - I hope you didn't cause this poor woman to be punished. You should make yourself more aware of the religious customs of others before you approach them. You may have caused this poor woman a great deal of hardship just by talking to her - for real.

True in Saudi Arabia, perhaps. Not at all true for American Muslims (with the possible exception of an infinitesimal number -- absolute generalizations being what they are). Not true in Indonesia. Or Egypt. Or Turkey. In fact, not true anywhere you don't see some mutant form of extremism practiced.

Those 'morans' are promoters of hate - be afraid white people.

years ago, some of the Nun's habits were pretty far out...they were seldom picked on because of them however.

I have to say, though, that when I see a woman in a burka, or hajib, my initial reaction is to think of that woman as being within the control of a system of thought that values women less than men.

Perhaps I'm wrong about this? Clearly not every religious Muslim woman wears burkas or hajibs--in some predominantly Muslim countries they'd form a small minority. It seems like the places where it's common--Saudi Arabia, Iran, wherever the Taliban is in control--also have medieval attitudes about the rights (none) of women and their place in society (the bottom).

"I have to say, though, that when I see a woman in a burka, or hajib, my initial reaction is to think of that woman as being within the control of a system of thought that values women less than men."

With all of our surgical "enhancement" procedures and and fixation on what is beautiful and sexy...

Recommended.

PS-I've been dropping my oldest son off at NC State this week and have seen plenty of female students from the middle east but they were wearing hijabs, not burkas.

May G'd bless you. Now you have the only other bit I know.

I'm not so sure of a god, but I do believe if you put goodness into the world, it pays itself forward. Thanks for shining a light.

For those who might be interested, there's a collection being taken up to offset the costs of cleaning the rug in Al-Iman masjid in New York that the drunk idiot pissed on while yelling racist slurs. It's being collected by the Velveteen Rabbi as a goodwill gesture. I think it's a very, very cool thing.

nothing to fill somebody's filthy pockets.

I think what you did was quite kind given your description of the scene. But I'm imagining that you are somewhere where perhaps there aren't many Muslims?

11 Bravo and I are "neighbors" and there are many Muslims here.

whole family showed up in force. One of the young women, there with her husband, had on a beautiful outfit, a black under suit consisting of a black top (covering everything from her neck to the middle of her hand) black slacks, with a red and black over gown, and the usual hijab went well with the rest. It was very attractive. I pointed it out to my hsuband.

After the graduation ceremonies, we decided to go out to lunch at a favored restaurant to find that the Muslim family had been there before us and were coming out as we went in.

My husband went up to her husband and told him how beautiful his wife's outfit was.

They all just beamed with pleasure.

A kind word may turneth away wrath, but a few friendly words can build bridges across the widest rivers.

I'm glad you had the opportunity to begin building a bridge. Keep up the good work.


(It always amazes me that so many "Christians" who believe that they are persecuted for their religion are the first to pile persecution on those of other faiths and belief systems...)

The muslims that came here from places like Iran, Pakistan, and Egypt did so because (and this will sound nuts, I know) they didn't like the lack of freedom and opportunity in their home countries. So, they came to America for a new life and a shot at upward mobility.

I'll declare! You sure got you some funny notions there!

However, I see very few Halal BBQ joints.

I see this as an opportunity.

Back to the topic at hand...oddly, no, I think they came to make money and raise kids.

Now you've done it. I want some brisket BAD now and its not fair I can't have any at the moment.

Seriously, Halal BBQ. Bringing two cultures together, one smoker at a time.

Beans! Greens!!

Man o man.

If it's Kosher, it's probably Halal too. The reverse is less likely to be true. Kosher is more restrictive about what animals may/may not be consumed. Although, if one is a stickler for the way the animal is slaughtered, Kosher definitely isn't Halal since the proper blessings would not have been said (and it wouldn't have been a Muslim doing it)

That's the case for a couple of Muslim families I've known.

I think the burka is spooky and it will never become common in America.

:kick:

:kick:

I hate those demagogues who peddle hate and indifference for other people.

never seen a woman in a burka -- only a head scarf.

i don't know how they're able to breathe.

and as often as not, will see a woman there in a burka (different women). I have always found it sad because I suspect they are going there when they assume there will be the fewest people shopping. It is ridiculous that members of our society should feel they have to try to stay out of sight, but were I in their position, I'm not so sure I'd be any different. It sickens me to see what this country is becoming, and in no small part thanks to FOX News. If the right has it's way, the melting pot will become as pure white as the driven snow.

A burka has sort of a mesh covering the eyes.

Either way, good for you. :)

It would be nice if all those here with opinions were at least conversant with the facts.

Which is the highest form of feminine modesty in Islamic culture - of sartorial modesty I mean. They have even more stringent means of enforcing feminine modesty and chastity that are performed upon the body itself.

We live in an area that is very multi-cultural. My kids - who have all graduated from high school now - went to school with Muslim kids, including girls who wore veils (I believe they're called hijab) and so my boys are used to seeing ladies cover themselves. It's my belief that as this country evolves, hopefully people will evolve as well.

Well, a person can dream, right?

you can always depart by telling her allah wiyak....or the more common ma'es salaama.

If you see a muslim male it's common to also say maarhabah after you say salaam aleikum, and to be extra nice you can always add in a nice sabah el'kheir (good morning) or massah el'kheir (good evening). If they tell you sabah el'kheir, you should respond sabah el'noor...it's the polite thing to say in Arabic.

So...a common greeting would go like this:

salaam aleikum

aleikum salaam (or just salaam...an abbreviated term)

maarhabah, sabah el'kheir

sabah el'noor

kaif a ah'illa (how is your family)

ku'lihum bi'kheir (they are well)

enhamdullallah

If they ever tell you shukran, you should reply afwun (you're welcome)

There is the Iraqi slang of maku'shi (which means no problem) but this is considered rude if you don't know them well

The act itself.

The beautiful rendering of the tale.

The ability to express the emotion of its aftermath.

Well done.

Interesting thing I noticed where I live in Holland: We see lots of women wearing the hijab in Holland. Never saw a burka there. Until, a few years ago, France began debating about banning the scarves in schools. Then suddenly, I started to see burkas. Still not that many, but the numbers did increase.
My thinking is that when their freedom of religion is threatened, any people will become defensive and probably more fundamentalist. It will be interesting to see what happens in the US as this controversy continues.

dress. It won't do much to convince that person that we're not all raging bigots, but it's something.

You showed kindness in a unkind world. All the worlds religions subjugate women, except Wicca. How different is a burka from long skirts, little net hats, no shaving of the legs etc.? They are all symbols of male domination. I feel sorry for everyone who allows fantasy to control their lives but I will not be rude.

The difference is, I'm a white male living in Indonesia. I'm paying a lot of attention to what's going on re the Islamophobia and propaganda war against Islam coming out of the States. As I mentioned http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9031686">here and went into more detail, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8976871">here.

If one simply judges by the attire, isn't that stereotyping, or even profiling? Isn't that a bad thing?

connecting one on one. thank you for your courage!

I hope to emulate your kind gesture some day.

And yours is an example worth following.

:hug:

thanks for letting us in on it! Peace.

It was a great story about connecting with another person, and we're focusing on her clothing.

1. We have no idea why she is in the burka. One possibility that few appear to be considering is that it is a conscious act of defiance against a culture that sees her as the enemy. Perhaps by wearing the burka she *wants* to stand out and make us uncomfortable, and she was genuinely taken aback and touched by bravo's actions
2. There is a lot of pressure to "ban" the burka, which I think is a very bad idea. The way you change people's habits is not by legislating them but by engaging with them.
3. I personally see the appeal of the headscarf (not the veil). It frames the face, and it allows the hair to be something that the woman shares only with those she wants to be intimate with. Would I ever want to see it required? Of course not. But I'm not going to ever want it banned.
4. There's a double standard about Islamic forms of dress. No one would ever suggest such measures as banning, say, Hasidic women from covering their hair, or forcing Amish people into zippers. I know I'm skirting towards Godwin's Law here, but the anti-semitism in Germany included such acts as Germans going up to Hasidic men and cutting their forelocks.
5. Again, I have to reiterate my appreciation of the OP. It's a small gesture, but so was refusing to move from one's seat on the bus.

I've never encountered anyone in the burka, but I've met in my job several women who wear the headscarf, and they have been uniformly gracious and pleasant.

Live and let live. It's not that hard.

I've started dressing more modestly recently for personal as well as religious reasons. My standards aren't that strict; for me, I'm just trying to stick to keeping my shoulders covered, not showing cleavage, wearing skirts and shorts at knee length or longer, and trying to wear skirts more often instead of wearing pants every day. But I can understand why people would want to do more than that. I like covering my head, although I don't do it all the time; sometimes, I'll wear a kerchief or snood. For a lot of people, dressing modestly, whatever that entails for them, is about a personal comfort level more than anything else.

that as Westerners we have no idea how our own dress is dictated by the customs of the culture. If it were 1969, with my short hair and fairly drab clothing I would be considered a "square" by most. But it's how I'm most comfortable.

Most of this country could learn a lot from your kindness.

we have many Muslims in Houston so I don't really think about it when I encounter them. Your story did make me think of our drive to Florida last week though. I'm always polite in gas stations (or anywhere) and did encounter Arab clerks who were very friendly in return. I'm sure they have to put up with a lot of crap daily ...

I'd like to memorize it and be able to do what you did.

:hug:

and respect. :hug:

Ignorance is a very dangerous thing.
It fuels hate.

:(

sometimes parents havent taught respect of others, thats where the community needs to step in.

Burkas have a mesh screen over the eyes. She was wearing a niqab. Just FYI.

A handy reference:
http://islam.about.com/od/dress/tp/clothing-glossary.htm

heart to honor any tradition that requires a woman to hide herself behind a veil or a burka and be subservient.

I will tolerate it reluctantly in the name of religious freedom, but never will I give that medieval religious any form of approval. Same goes for fundamentalist Christianity, Zionism, etc.

Is religion a matter of free will? Could she choose to not be a Muslim? I don't think I could simply choose to be a Muslim or Christian, I don't think I could choose to believe. How about you?

i am a presbyterian and will be so until i die, although on some level i am aware it's wholly irrational.

you mean you didn't notice the yellow star of david, or in this case, the yellow crescent that was
sewn to her burka?
Every real American knows the truth about them......just ask rush,palin and beck.

NIcely played!

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Although I don't agree with people avoiding her because she's a Muslim, I just think it's weird you went up to her and said that. People around here act weird around Amish and Mennonites, but I wouldn't go up to them and say some weird thing to them like you did.

JMHO. :shrug:

That's the MBTA for those outside the Boston area.

He was in full regalia and looked nervously around, surrounded by westerners.

We made eye contact, and I bowed as a courtesy.

He beamed me the biggest smile I've ever seen and bowed back.

That was the extent of our engagement, but I think it made his day.

It certainly made mine.