Cartoon: Street Harassment

Nothing to add; the cartoon says it all.

That indeed says it all.

the discussion below is not edifying.

:popcorn:

And now, I'm going to do something stupid, and read it.

I started trying, but it just wasn't worth it. Everybody's an expert on "their" gender, and more than willing to bash their "opposite".

Thankfully, multi-gendered folks seemed to have evaded the crossfire. Or (on edit) got to be slammed from both sides.

edit: see above

he is such a fucking victim

Men just don't get it, do they???

Maybe we need a toon with the first 7 panels showing the 99.99% of us who aren't misogynistic would-be rapists. Then panel 8 would show you getting a wolf whistle and declaring, "Men are such assholes"

A comic of the harassment women face on the streets every day vs a comment by one of those women noting that 'men just don't get it' and your first reaction is to defend men from such a vile comment. Uh-huh.

You aren't subject to potential violence just by walking down the street. I used to be young and beautiful and had my fill of it. You never knew when one would turn violent.

I'm pretty sure that men are more often the victim of violent attacks on the street than women are. So your argument doesn't hold much water. Regardless, you shouldn't make blanket statements like that. I was attacked "just by walking down the street." It's not a pleasant experience regardless of the gender.

Because discounting gang violence and/or drug-related violence, I'm pretty sure that women are more often the victim of violent attacks from strangers on the street. Gang violence and drug violence are terrible, and men ARE more often victims of that, but that sort of violence is entirely different from a scenario where a stranger attacks you, entirely unprovoked, either to rob, assault, or rape you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Crime_victimology

"Patterns are found within the victimology of crime in the United States. Overall, the financially disadvantaged, males, those younger than 25 and non European-Americans were more likely to fall victim to crime. Income, sex and age had the most dramatic effect on the chances of a person being victimized by crime, while the characteristic of race depended upon the crime being committed."

"In terms of gender, males were more likely to become crime victims than were females, with 79% percent of all murder victims being male. Males were also twice as likely to be carjacked as were females."

I would think the carjacking statistic speaks the most loudly toward men more often being the victim of random violence as it's rare that a carjacker knows the person whose car he is jacking. I consider carjackings to be fairly random. It seems very likely that most victims of unprovoked violence are men.

That's what I thought.

Just what I thought. Do you have any statistics that negate the facts that I posted? Or is snark your only rhetorical technique?

Even YOU admitted it only sort of did.

Women are more likely to be the victim of sexual assault than are men. For every other violent crime, men are more often the victim. But hey, it's only the Department of Justice. We all know they're a bunch of he-man women haters.

This is the reference from that Wiki link I posted.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv08.pdf


"Characteristics of victims of violent crimes measured by the
NCVS in 2008 were similar to previous years. Males,
blacks, and persons age 24 or younger experienced violent
victimizations at higher or somewhat higher rates than
females, whites, and persons age 25 or older (table 4)."

"Females were more likely than males to be victims of rape
or sexual assault. Males experienced higher rates of victimization
than females in all other violent crimes measured by
the NCVS."

harassment, and how it feels to hear it all the time, and how it's so easily dismissed, even by an ally.

However, the post that I responded to says that men don't know what it's like to walk the streets and have to fear being violently attacked. That's very much not true. In fact, the statistics say that men need to be a good deal more concerned about random street violence than women do.

I do think there is a difference in the mental attitude one carries when thinking one is going to be harassed vs. one is going to be violently attacked. If you're going to be violently attacked, there are all sorts of things you can do to prevent, deter or repel it. It doesn't work that way with harassment. I don't want to get into one being worse than the other or anything, but I do want to make the point that people generally do not consider what it's like to have a near-constant low-level background hum of harassment going on as you run your lunchtime errands, no matter where you are or what you're doing or wearing.

There's a big ... no huge ... difference. Women face the fear of violent attack BECAUSE of their being women; not because of some random violent person.

Men are attacked violently more often than women. When I was attacked, the last thing I gave a damn about was the motivations of the attacker.

Women know, every day, that they might be attacked because they are women. Men don't have to deal with that. They don't have to expect and anticipate it. They don't have to be prepared for it.

Nobody targets men because they are men. Men don't have to think about anyone targeting them because they are men. They don't have to wonder about the motivation of an attack, ever.

But only white men have that privilege. That was the whole point of hate crime legislation. Hate crimes are crimes that target people because of who they are. Crimes that target people have an entirely different dimension to them.

White men have never had to understand this. And you are showing that you clearly have no idea what this means, or what it is like.

Just because you are showing your cluelessness doesn't mean it isn't a hugely important issue.

It means that you have a big gap in what you know that you really should do something about.

If you're being beaten to a bloody pulp, do you really care WHY the person is doing this? Wouldn't you rather be less likely to be attacked and know the motivation of the attacker than more likely to be attacked and not know? Your argument is that men have it easier because at least they don't know why they're being attacked? Really? You want to talk about clueless? Wow.

And by the way, I'm all for hate crimes legislation. I think that people should be punished, in part, due to the motivation of their crime. But that doesn't mean that we should live in constant fear of those motivations, things which are not physical.

If someone is attacking me because I'm gay, it matters that they're gay bashing me.

If someone is raping someone because she's a women, it matters that they're targeting her because she's a woman. It matters because it means it's not a random crime.

If someone commits a lynching, would you say that the fact that they're racist is irrelevant?

No lawyer would EVER tell you that motivation is irrelevant.

You are trying to beat this issue that random violence is the only violence that matters. But random violence is RARE compared to violence where people know their victim and target them for a reason!

So dismissing all violence except random violence is nothing short of delusional! Get a damned Life!

Than knowing your potential attacker's motives and not be beaten. Makes sense to me.

"If someone commits a lynching, would you say that the fact that they're racist is irrelevant?
No lawyer would EVER tell you that motivation is irrelevant. "

You're having problems reading again. Did you not just read in my previous post that I SUPPORT hate crimes legislation? I just think that it's INCREDIBLY STUPID to think it's better to be more likely attacked for random reasons than less likely to be attacked for sexist reasons. Comprende? Of course not.

And by the way, do you have a source for ANY of the bullshit you're spewing? I've provided info from the DOJ. You've given me nothing but your word which I've already proven to not be all that valuable. You might want to provide something factual if you'd like to continue this.

I'd rather be beaten? What are you talking about?

He's not responding to you, he's off in something that happened to him, so any conversation on 'victimization' can only be about him. Seems to me, anyway.


well, I know you didn't need me to tell you that, though :)

You always get it, ThomCat. Always love your posts.

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It is about the pervasiveness of sexual harassment and sexual bullying.

Boys have to worry about sexual harassment and sexual bullying in school at levels close to girls, but not quite as high. But girls and women have to worry about it EVERYWHERE, their entire lived.

As a boy, you mostly have to worry about sexual harassment and bullying if someone thinks you are gay or accuses you of being gay. As a woman, it is open season on you all the time.

Your entire life men will feel like they have permission, or some INHERENT RIGHT to get up close and personal with you, and invade your space and get to know you, and judge you, and insult and demean you, you, and attack you if they want to, JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE A WOMAN.

Men don't go through any of that. The random street violence is just being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It isn't targeted at them specifically, and it certainly is not targeted at them because of their gender. The point of "random" is that it isn't targeted at them all.

The post I responded to said that men don't have to worry about being randomly attacked. That's entirely not true, in fact, men are far more likely to be randomly attacked than women. Frankly, I could give a damn less why the person is attacking me.

to worry about being raped and sexually attacked quite as much as women do. In fact, not anywhere near as much. It's a constant fear with women, one that I don't think men quite fully understand. And that's what we're talking about here, not what you're talking about, which is violent attacks in general.

As women don't get violently attacked as much as men. In fact, not anywhere near as much. The post I responded to said that men don't need to worry about random, violent attacks. THAT was what I was responding to. Because not only is it not the truth, the opposite is true.

No man that I have ever met worries on any serious level that he is going to be a victim of random violence.

No man that I have ever met worries on any serious level that he is likely to be murdered.

It just isn't a serious consideration.

If you polled 1000 men, and asked them if they ever worry about being the victim of murder or random violence I would bet you that the Yes response rate would be very low, and only in certain areas with known violent street crime.

if you polled 1000 women and asked them if they ever worry about being raped the number of yes responses would be MUCH higher. Especially given that 1:6 women WILL be raped in their lifetimes according to real rape statistics.

That is 166 women out of that 1000 women. And more of them will have sexually bullied, or sexually harassed.


Out of 1000 men, chances are, not one of them would have been the victim of any type of random street violence. Not one!

I provided DOJ statistics that show men are a good deal more likely to be the victim of violent crime. That means that a good deal more than 1 in 6 men will be the victim of a violent attack in their lifetimes. Perhaps you'd like to argue with the DOJ?

:eyes:

prove it!

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv08.pdf


"Characteristics of victims of violent crimes measured by the
NCVS in 2008 were similar to previous years. Males,
blacks, and persons age 24 or younger experienced violent
victimizations at higher or somewhat higher rates than
females, whites, and persons age 25 or older (table 4)."

"Females were more likely than males to be victims of rape
or sexual assault. Males experienced higher rates of victimization
than females in all other violent crimes measured by
the NCVS."

:eyes:

It does not say that guys are victims of more violent crimes than women.

If rape is more common that all other violent crimes, then all of your assumptions are totally worthless.

All of your posts ASSUME that other violent crimes are more common than rape.

We know that that rape and sexual assault are consistently common, affecting an 1:6 women. You have not shown any numbers showing the frequency of other violent crimes, or showing that men and boys are raised in any kind of climate or fear of those crimes.

Males, blacks, and persons age 24 or younger experienced violent victimizations at higher or somewhat higher rates than females, whites, and persons age 25 or older (table 4)."

"All of your posts ASSUME that other violent crimes are more common than rape."

OK now, you seem to have a very hard time with numbers. It's OK, we're not all math people. Let's assume that rape is the most common violent crime. There are several other types of violent crime as well. That means that while rape may be the most commonly committed violent crime, rapes can still constitute a small minority of the total of violent crimes. Now, considering that men can be far more likely to be the victim of other violent crimes (every other violent crime), in total, they receive the brunt of violent attacks. You seem to have a problem with the DOJ's numbers. If you have a specific flaw, I'd love to hear it.

That study says that women men have higher reported rates of all violent crimes except rape. Women have higher reported rates of all other crimes.

The key word is reported.

But we know that regardless of how many crimes are Reported, women actually experience rape at a rate of 1:6.

So this is an example of someone taking one statistic entirely out of context and insisting that it means far more than it really does. Congratulations, you're the perfect example of someone every Stat. 101 professor likes to use as an example on the first day of class.

And you are once again throwing your 1:6 stat when I've debunked it numerous times. You can't even get your statistic right and you're lecturing me. Pathetic.

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you "walk down the street"?

Do you have to be aware of your surroundings and the people around you every time you go anywhere or do anything?

Were you sexually violated when you were attacked? And yeah - being beat up is bad. Being raped is worse.

I know because I speak to them regularly about such issues.

"Do you have to be aware of your surroundings and the people around you every time you go anywhere or do anything?"

Yes, that's called being smart. Everyone should be aware of their surroundings and people around them. And get this, even though I'm very well aware of these things, I'm still far more likely to be the victim of random violence.

No, I wasn't sexually violated when I was attacked, I was actually very lucky. But far more people weren't as lucky when they were attacked. Many people die from being beaten up, so saying being raped is worse is really a foolish argument to make. It's like saying that tomatoes are far worse than oranges. Matthew Shepherd was beaten up, I'm guessing he'd have preferred to be raped and live. Both are awful and each person's experience is different.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic. Where do you live, btw?

Are "aware" even in your place of business? Even in places where I think most men would "feel safe" - I'm not talking about your typical "safety" situations, but being approached, groped, or have "something vile" said to you. Have you ever been in a retail store, shopping, minding your own business with your kid by your side, and have some guy - who worked there - walk behind you in a narrowish aisle and deliberately grind his groin into your backside as he did so? Then after you reported it to the manager, you were afraid to walk the block to your car with your child in tow?

When I made the statement "beaten up" - I meant just that - not being killed. Way to try and twist the argument. And yeah - being RAPED is WORSE than being (just) beaten up. And for some women - at least for a while (and for some for a very damn long time if not forever) - a lot of them would RATHER be dead.

Many people are partially or fully paralyzed after being "beaten up". I'm guessing those people would have preferred to be raped. And a lot of those people would rather be dead.

What you fail to realize is that even in places where most men would "feel safe", they're still more likely to be violently attacked than women. I've had a number of vile things said to me by women and men, it feels awful regardless of the gender. I've had a woman relentlessly stalk me and try to get me kicked out while I was minding my own business at the mall. All because of the tshirt I was wearing.

Being raped and being beaten up are both intensely awful things to go through. I'm not twisting anything when I say that it's impossible to tell which is worse until you've experienced them both, and then one would only be making a personal determination.

I live in Maryland, and most of the women in my life do too. But I have a number of relatives and friends in California, Pennsylvania, Florida and Wisconsin too.

Men don't live their entire lives in fear every day worrying that violence is as ever- present a threat as it is for women.

Yes, there is the threat of random violence, but men don't have to worry that every person they meet might betray their trust and sexually assault them. Men don't have to prepare to be defend themselves from every encounter, letting people knew everyplace they are going and everyone they are meeting, and never going anyplace alone in case that guy turns out to be abusive or a rapist.

Men don't have to worry that the police aren't going to believe them, and are going to blame them for the attack. Police are usually going to believe that it was random violence. Hospitals are going to treat a gunshot wound or a beating and everything will get turned over to the DA. Cops routinely accuse women of causing their own rapes, and Rape kits routinely sit for years un-reviewed.

Men go about their lives normally, and if random violence happens, then it happens. They may take some precautions, but otherwise they don't don't live their lives as if random violence is an ever-present factor in their lives everywhere they go. Every time they go to work, every time they visit someone, in every friend's home, or business, or restaurant, or club, or every other place they go. Every time they meet with someone new, or every time the meet with someone they have known for years if he is alone and nobody else knows he is here, there is a chance of the situation escalating into rape.

Little girl gets taught, warned to be careful and protect themselves, never put themselves in situations, always think as if rape is a possibility.

Unless you live in a war-zone, boys don't live with that kind of fear, and in a war-zone, girls live with that same fear and live with a heightened fear of rape too.

Because research has already shown that as societal stress levels go up, levels of rape and sexual assault go up too. That would be times of economic stress and also times of violence or times of war.

Nobody can doubt that in Iraq right now, and in Afghanistan, and in war-torn areas in Africa, women get targeted for rape in devastating numbers. Often as a deliberate tactic.

So dismissing rape because men suffer from random violence too totally misses the point. Men aren't stalked and targeted for violence their entire lives because they are men. Random violence is random. Men are on the receiving end of it because they are out in the street more in violent areas where random violence happens. But they living in fear of being targeted.

The great majority of people we encounter in our daily lives aren't out to get us and betray our trust. The media might make it seem that way, but it's not the case. Most people can live their lives without worrying about such things happening, and they won't. If you live in a bad area or are particularly afraid of being victimized, there are always self-defense classes, pepper spray and even guns.

And any asshole cop who would not believe a rape victim or try to blame them for the attack is also likely to be an asshole to just about any man he/she encounters as well.

Certainly there is a chance of being raped any time you step out of the door, that doesn't mean it's the least bit likely.

And I'm very interested in seeing where I did anything approaching dismissing rape. I responded to a post saying that men don't need to worry about being a victim of random violence. That's entirely untrue.

about rape?

You are going to tell women that they don't need to educate their daughters and prepare them for the possibility and risk of being raped?

:wtf:

When at least 1 in every 6 women will be raped in her lifetime, and that number is higher when you consider other forms of sexual assaults and persistent sexual bullying? OF COURSE women are going to worry about it on an daily basis and make sure their daughters are warned. Are you kidding?

Who are you to dismiss something this common and severe?

And then you totally dismiss the severity of police officers who mistreat and abuse rape victims? That situation is so bad that rape victims describe their treatment by cops and then by the courts as being raped again. But you, in your infinite wisdom can just dismiss that entirely?

Wow!

It must be nice to know everything, and be able to just re-write reality like that. :eyes:

You're a real piece of work.

Of course women should be warned about the dangers of rape and keep that in their heads. What they shouldn't do is, as you say, prepare to defend themselves with every encounter. Both men and women can go to just about any public place and be guaranteed a high degree of security. If you life your life like that, you're living it in a prison of your own making.

In spite of women being far more likely to be a victim of sexual assault, men are still more likely to be the victim of violent crime, including being nearly four times more likely to be murdered. Does this mean that men shouldn't shake anyone's hand in fear that this person is going to shank them? Should men meet every person with the assumption that this person is going to try to do them harm? Of course not.

Bully for you and for the "women you know" that they don't do that - but I suspect those women do and you haven't a gd CLUE about what those women actually feel and think because you're too busy telling them that what they feel and think isn't as important as what YOU feel and think.

I don't identify as male, but I do have those chromosomes.

I was violently beaten by my mother for most of my childhood.

Women scare the living shit out of me, and if you haven't noticed, they're freaking *everywhere*.

I'm currently in treatment for PTSD, and trying to deal with it, but I deal with a constant, pervasive, fear of humans in general, and women in specific, because what my childhood taught me was that women can be just as violent and brutal as men, and sometimes, much more so.

rape is worse.

Maybe the "women in your life" don't feel comfortable discussing this subject with you. I could well understand why.

Spending the rest of my life without the use of my legs is worse. But we all have our priorities.

to make that "determination"?

To make your "determination"?

not being paralyzed.

Have you experienced both, EOTE?

That's one of those violent crimes I was referring to. Of course, not every violent attack ends in becoming paralyzed just as not every sexual assault ends in rape (that 1/6 statistic refers to sexual assault, not rape). Just as some violent attacks are a simple punch to the head, some sexual assaults are unwanted ass grabbings.

So, I'll ask you again, have you been paralyzed?

http://www.rainn.org/statistics

I'm in an electric wheelchair. I've lost most of the use of my legs and much of the use of my arms and hands.

And I say you're full of shit.

You're making shit up claiming falsely that men have to fear violence equally to women, when that just isn't true.

All you have proven is that you are very persistent at misusing statistics, and that, for some reason, you really have a very strong personal desire to prove that rape is no big deal.

that this @sshole is such an insensitive boor. I think my list just got a wee bit longer. He's not worth bothering with.

:hug:

Especially when they're backed up by legitimate sources. You continue to use stats after I've debunked them with information from RAIN. You have yet to provide a single source, only your information which has proven to be quite unreliable. I know reading can be hard, but it's worth it.

THEN, when ThomCat tells you he actually IS,

you IGNORE that? It's suddenly no longer part of your argument?




flop

to try and make yours "look better".

I've been beaten and I've been raped. andn I've been beaten and raped. And sexually assaulted. And molested since from before I can even remember. That enough gory details for you? Would you be happy if I had been paralyzed? Would that make my position more palatable to you?

YOU ARE THE MAN IN THE CARTOON IN THE FINAL PANEL. I feel sorry for those "women in your life". You haven't a f'ing clue = and obviously don't want one.

You see, quotes are usually used when you want to illustrate what a particular person has said. I never said anything about making my argument looking better. My argument has been the same from the very beginning. And you're welcome to feel sorry for the women in my life, I'm sure you do a lot of worrying for a lot of people. They, however, don't feel sorry for themselves like you do.

a woman has a 1:6 chance of being raped. What are the odds that you will lose your legs due to violence?

1 in a million?

you keep trying to create these false equivalencies in order to dismiss the seriousness and commonness of rape and violence against women.

Nobody is buying your shit.

That 1:6 number you keep throwing around is a woman's chance of being sexually assaulted, not raped. A large number of those sexual assaults are rapes, but certainly not all of them.

And losing legs is just one of the many serious results of violence. So if you want to talk bullshit, clean out your own pen first.

http://www.rainn.org/statistics

No, I am not "verbally abused nearly every single time you "walk down the street"? ", but then again, MOST people aren't either.

Yes, I "have to be aware of your surroundings and the people around you every time you go anywhere or do anything?", and MOST people SHOULD be all the time. Its called situational awareness and if more people had, violence would decrease dramatically.

No, I was not "sexually violated when you were attacked? ", and I fail to see how that question is relevant to this discussion.

so yes, it is highly pertinent. This guy thinks that "random violence" is "just as bad", but it isn't. Not by a long shot.

and when I was younger, I was subjected to catcalls, whistles, STARES (yeah THAT kind), or verbal utterances - some of which COULD seem benign yet were in reality a sexual comment when accompanied by the leer, wink, nod, chuckle, or elbow to the their friend.

And I'm not - and never was - that attractive. I wasn't a bombshell, I wasn't "built", I wasn't beautiful or striking or any of those things. Just an average young woman.

If men get physically attacked it will be by another man, and never for the sole reason that the victim is male.

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As it is represented in the cartoon, this is bullying.

It absolutely is.

:(

It is a very widespread an accepted form of bullying. And it is a form of bullying that most men dismiss as "no big deal" because they mistakenly confuse this bullying with complements.

There is nothing complementary about bullying.

You nailed it. Bullying is absolutely a good way to describe it.

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And there's no point in comparing who gets it "worse," or what a price to pay for that would be. The problem is that it happens at all, no matter how women look.

Just the simply fact that you are female makes you a target, for verbal or physical harassment.

thing -- it didn't mean I was pretty because that's what happened to pretty girls. I would get this terrible mixture of horror, fear, sadness and feeling of flattery when guys hung out of a car to yell at me as I went running.

should expect harassment as part of the package?

as part of the package.

I'd say it's more like 45 percent of you aren't misogynistic and 75 percent aren't would-be rapists.

When rape is an epidemic, and sexual harassment and sexual bullying is so common and so accepted that it described as "Routine" is research, then it CERTAINLY being committed by far more than 00.001% of guys.

Whether we admit it or not, whether we know it or not, we all know men who bully and harass and attack women. The attacks and violence against women are too common, too universal, too widespread throughout all of our society for it to be any other way.

All women and all girls everywhere at all ages are being subjected to harassment, bullying and attacks by the boys and men around them. At what point do we all start admitting this to each toher and start telling each other that it has to stop?

I say this as a man. We all have to admit this as men.

Violence and harassment against women and girls will never stop until men realize that WE are responsible for allowing it to happen. Male acceptance of discrimination against woman, and degradation of woman, and demeaning attitudes against women, and bullying and harassment against women is built into culture.

It is very incredibly rare to see men say anything when women or girls are insulted or mocked in sexual ways. And when anyone does dare to say anything, the defensiveness comes out. The attacks come out.

This thread is a good example of this. A simple cartoon showing the reality of how common it is for women to get harassed just walking down the street, and men are up in arms demanding that they be defended. Instead of women being defended from harassment, men insist that they are the ones who need to be defended. How damned sad is that?

Women in our society are objectified. They aren't even people.

A woman might say "he's got a nice ass" about some hot guy they see, but that is a prelude to wondering what his personality etc is like and if they can forge a relationship.

Most men might say "look at the ass on that." No person. No respect. No relationship. Just a piece of meat to drool over or worse.



So yes, that is a great cartoon.

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But I suspect you knew that. And of course, appearance has nothing to do with whether one experiences street harassment or not.

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There's no point in rating them, or quantifying them. It's hard to say that being told "suck my dick" on the bus when you're pretty is somehow better than being told "suck my dick" on the bus when you're homely.

Real life rape statistics show that ALL women, regardless of what they look like and regardless of how they dress, can be victimized by rape.

How a woman dresses is used AS AN EXCUSE TO DEFLECT BLAME so that women are somehow held responsible for the heinous actions of men who commit crimes.

Anyone has a RIGHT to dress anyway they want. Men and women!

Dressing in any clothing, no matter what it looks like is not a crime. It certainly is NOT a RAPABLE OFFENSE!

So there is no possible way that a woman's choice is clothing can be blamed, legally, morally, or ethically for any sexual assault or rape committed against her.

If someone commits sexually assaults or rapes, that person is the one fully 100% responsible. Always! That person made the choice to commit the crime. That person Committed the Crime. That person is responsible for committing the crime.

Blaming the victim is total bullshit. Blaming what the victim was wearing is Bullshit. Blaming what the doing is bullshit. Blaming what the victim what drinking or where the victim might have been hanging out is bullshit.

Nothing else is relevant except that the person who committed the crime chose to do it, and did it. The criminal is responsible for the crime!

Please.
cause otherwise, thats one of the more deplorable things Ive seen anyone say in a while.

Also one of the more meaningless. It seems to me that each generations "hooker" wear is the height of the next generations teen fashion. What exactly does a prostitute dress like? I drive around, and on certain streets, the only ones I can be fairly sure are not street walkers are those in Muslim head garb and the Hispanic women with children and groceries. Otherwise, everyone just looks like people, but given where I am and people I see getting in cars, I'm pretty sure that some of them are.

Anyway, Its them Prostitutes fault for dressing so naughty. And others for looking so promiscuous, like them prostitutes.

that number.

And one thing you need to understand - not every misogynist is a "would-be rapist" - some of them hate/dislike/fear women too much for that.

I think that just needs to be made perfectly clear.

We're the most disrespectful piles of shit walking. ALL of us. NO exceptions.

After all, females NEVER judge other males by THEIR looks, do they? Where's THAT cartoon?

Good grief - and we're the ones who are called emotional?

If it's not meant to be all inclusive, then why didn't she say "SOME men" instead of just "men", period?

I'm saying the statement doesn't mean 'you suck' - it means 'you don't understand'. If you don't face the harassment, you don't understand how it feels.

It not always all about men.

It represents the common experience.

So you don't see yourself in that cartoon. So what?

The fact is, if you insist that a woman HAS to talk to you when she doesn't want to talk to you, then at the very least you are ignoring her wishes and pushing yourself upon her because of your high opinion of yourself.

That is rude, and she has every right to consider that threatening behavior whether you see it as threatening or not.

Coercing any woman into talking to you is harassment.

Blaming any woman for not wanting to talk to you is blaming her for not wanting to be harassed.

Guys constantly talk about how they are the nice ones, and why don't women like nice guys, but if attack women for wanting to choose who they talk to, you aren't a nice guy! And I say that as a guy!

If I talk to a woman, and she makes it clear she doesn't want to talk and I leave, is that harassment?

I ask this because I always get the feeling from these threads that any unwanted attention, even just trying to start a conversation, would be considered harassment by some people here.

I'm going to pretend that this is a serious question, and not meant to bait me in some way.

So, here goes...

If a woman is alone, and is trying to be alone, and has been giving all the signals that ANY REASONABLE PERSON would interpret to mean that she wants to be alone then that means leave her alone!

If, despite that, you insist that you have a right approach her and demand that she talk to you, and specifically tell you that she isn't interested, then you are doing two (2) things wrong.

1. You are invading her personal space against her wishes, because you want to.
2. You are demanding that she must interact with you against her wishes, because you want her to.

So, YES, that would be HARASSMENT.

Please note that this entire scenario requires that the guy acts like a REASONABLE PERSON. For some reason, a hell of a lot of men insist that they aren't required to be reasonable when they are dealing with women. I'm saying something very radical here. I'm insisting that men really do have to behave reasonably with, around, and among women. I know that's going to strike many men as very strange. They'll just have to get used to the idea.

Now, second scenario:

If a woman is alone but gives absolutely no indication of any kind that you can see whether or not she wants to be spoken to, and you decide to approach her anyway, first of all you should think twice, but if you are going to persist then at least use good manners.

Chances are good that she wants to be left alone, because if she wanted to be social with you she could have said something so. Someone giving no visible signal is usually deliberately giving no signal as a way of saying "leave me alone." No visible signal doesn't mean "maybe," It means "no." Someone who is ignoring you is ignoring you for a reason. That is not a subtle signal.

If you insist that the quiet girl might be interested in you anyway, and you really must approach her to find out, because maybe, must maybe she is so absorbed in what she was doing that she just hasn't noticed you yet then you're going to go ahead and interrupt her anyway...

At least recognize that you are about to interrupting her to get her attention. That is rude, and she is very likely to consider it rude. So you aren't scoring any points right off the bat.

When you introduce yourself, keep your distance. Someone who is already being rude to interrupt and also invades her personal space is going to set off a lot of warning bells. And if she says she wants to be left alone, immediately apologize for interrupting and leave. Leave right away.

Was that harassment? No. But was it rude? Oh Yes.

If you want to meet women, my advise is to make friends with women someplace where you can be introduced to them by mutual friends, or friends of friends. If you don't have any friends who know women, or friends of friends who know women you can meet then that in itself is a problem. Meet more people who are better able to be friends across gender lines, and learn how to be friends with women yourself too.

I have some problems with personal interactions, and find reading signals from people, especially women, sometimes rather difficult.

I find your definition of harassment to be rather harsh, seeing as how I might not read someone correctly, and then be accused of harassing someone, even though it might have been inadvertent. When the signals are obvious to a monkey, one word answers, or no answers at all, i can see it, but beyond that, I'm pretty clueless.

My personal social life would have been pretty nil if it wasn't for match.com, or some of the other sites out there, since I'm also a shy person, and mst of my friends were either geeks, married, or gay. or a combination of both. Geek and gay, geek and married.

If you have trouble reading signals from people that's a very difficult situation to be in.

I have a few friends with Aspergers, including a teen I used to babysit since he was an infant. They all have difficult lives as a result. They all have an incredibly difficult time recognizing and translating social cues and body language that the rest of us take for granted.

But despite that, nobody has a right to insist that they can barge in on anybody else and demand to be heard, or demand to be know. That may represent a barrier for for, if you are simply unable to understand the nonverbal communication, but nobody else can be Required to make themselves socially and physically available for other people against their will.

That has to be the bottom line.

It's usually obvious with someone who has better social skills then I. I've also learned some skills, though some things still escape me.

You use words like "insist", "demand", "require". I have never done that, never will do that. If the attention is unwanted, I apologize and leave. You make it sound like every social interaction is unwanted and tiresome.

"Sorry, I don't read social signals very well," is a perfectly acceptable close, IMO.

If a man was giving you the attention you were giving the same woman, would you react the same way?

I never even press the "case" with ex-girlfriends. Over is over.

I'm just talking about walking up to someone and being told, or figuring out, that the attention is unwanted. Is that harassment?

I don't mind when people come up and talk to me. If I want to be alone, I go home. I don't consider a public place the a good spot to get privacy.

"Over is over." That made me chuckle. :)

And cleans. And does laundry, and rebuilds/repairs things and properly raises my honor-roll stepson.

See, we're not all budding GSI cases waiting to happen.

Ward never cooked a thing.

Now imagine that you have a stepdaughter instead of a stepson. Imagine that she had to put up with the unasked-for comments of strange men every time she had the audacity to appear in public. It's real. Good men should take this behavior seriously. Good men who see someone doing this "as a joke" have to stand up and tell these bullies that what they are doing is harassment and invasion of privacy. Women do not do this to men. It's not the admiration of the opposite sex; it's the vocalization of same in order to embarrass that person and/or bond with other members of their sex.

You know, sometimes things aren't always about you.

It just appears that no one is looking for a "correct answer" to this flamebait, nor is it possible to give one.

Yes, I GET IT. Men are horrible, they only think with their dicks, they're only out to dominate, and have done so since they were able to walk upright. I wholeheartedly apologize on behalf of my gender's less-than-human behavior. We need to be more thoughtful and keep to ourselves and not look at you; avert the eyes, keep our heads down, shut the fuck up and all that.

I mean, I don't get what sort of meaningful, bridge-building discussion this is supposed to provoke. Should I have just stayed out of this and not touched it with a ten-foot pole, like I usually do when gender issues are discussed, because it seems no comment is ever going to be the right one?

I think it addresses an issue that far too many men are not aware of. I know because I myself never really gave it much thought until a few years ago.

"Should I have just stayed out of this and not touched it with a ten-foot pole..."

I'm thinking yes.

The cartoon kind of lost me at the "Suck my cock" example. That's a regular occurrence? Really?

Maybe it's because I've been bullied by both males and females for 20 of my 41 years that I'm not really being reached here. I'm in the camp that humans in general need to improve and be more civil, not just men.

I still get the occasional cat-call, and I'm a fat middle-aged housewife. I've heard all of those remarks, more than once, starting at age 11.

Bullying is not gender-specific. Gender-based bullying is, and that's what we're talking about here. It's hard to talk about it because many people honestly, through no fault of their own, do not believe it goes on as often as it does, or that it can be laughed off, or that it should be lumped in with bullying in general.

Also, you say you've been bullied for 20 of your 41 years. Have you been bullied as an adult?

Grew up in one redneckistan hole in Ohio. Wasn't just my town, but all towns surrounding it. They were filled with some real assholes-just-because-they-COULD-be type of assholes. It didn't stop just because high school ended. People don't take kindly to someone with 2-3 feet of hair in insular Redneckistan, Ohio, and that goes for all genders.

Did you leave?

The city I live in now is closer to Cleveland and isn't too terrible despite being loaded with a fair share of Bewsh II Kool-Aidists. At least they care about their children's educations, unlike the places I lived in before. Whenever I go back to those inbreeding grounds, I get a sick feeling.

public.

That one has become a bloody pop icon.

Hate when rock stars did that. Hated it even more when women obliged.

I just know I've heard it screamed at me out of car windows, from across the street, while waiting for the bus, walking the dog, working in my yard, on my way to work... etc, etc, etc

and what some would consider "attractive". I'm also very small. 4'11", 102lbs. I consistently hear that particular phrase, and have been offered a bit of money to do so. I'm consistently asked by male patrons to go back to the hotel with them next door, even after I've told them I'm married and not interested. There's always a comment about my body etc....

I have had patrons wait for me. I take an employee escort to my car every night. Usually a guy from the kitchen, or we'll leave in groups.

To read some of the posts in this thread that women should not have to be on alert where ever they go, they're wrong. And especially for someone my size, I have no chance in hell to defend myself if someone should attack me.

btw, I don't live in a large city or a high crime area either.

with your keys in hand. Have one key jutting out between your middle and ring finger of your dominant hand. Make a fist, with the back of the key supported by the heel of your closed fist. You don't have to have a Mike Tyson punch to stop someone in there tracks. Holding the key like this will concentrate your punch to a very small point. It is extremely effective, especially it you get the eyeball. Escorts might not always be available, so you should get in the habit of doing something like this. I think all women should take some basic defense classes that show how to take every day objects and use them to stop an attack. You CANNOT worry about physically harming an attacker- your life my be in danger, so screw the other person. That sentence is hard for some people to get past, but that is the way it is.

I was bullied by both guys and gals my first 20 to. People in general need to be more civil.

It seems the bullying ended when you were in your early 20s, though correct? It doesn't for women. That's the point.

I attended a high school of 250 kids, everyone knew everyone, and abuse was frowned on. But it did continue at home with my step mother. I was stubborn though,and she couldn't beat that out of me. I survived, barely. 20+ years, on and off, of therapy, continues.

is understanding your enemy.

The next step is loving your enemy.






Try to understand. You don't need to respond or to make a point. Just try to understand.

It's not saying all mean are evil bastards.

It's just pointing out that women at times are harassed by men and some men don't quite get that were not flattered by being bullied.

I thought "Men don't really get it, do they" was uncalled for.

Word it as "Most men don't really get it, do they?"

would come along and make exactly your argument, only insist that most men do, that it should be worded as "some men". And Some men would invoke complaints that it should be "a few men" which would in turn invoke a complaint that it should be "that one dim bulb on that one reality show really doesn't get it"

By changing the focus from a discussion of harassment of women, to a defense of men, suddenly few and fewer men are allowed to be mentioned or shown in the cartoon,

until suddenly only one guy can be pictured, with lots of disclaimers stating that he's a convicted rapist and a certified creepy guy, with his name and DNA evidence provided so that everyone knows it's not any other innocent guy out there.

The cartoon would have to to explicitly state that it does not refer to any other NICE GUY (tm) and that all other NICE GUYS (tm) are wonderful, innocent men who are absolutely worthy of dating.

But somehow, despite that, the levels of sexual harassment, bullying, abuse and rape would remain the same.

We just wouldn't be allowed to portray that in any way or talk about it.

By and large everyone loves their own, they are wonderful. Its all those other ones who are nasty and dont listen to the people and need to be replaced.

And the men in everyone's life are all Nice Guys (TM). Its all those other ones who are problematic. This makes me think of that thread in the lounge a few back, where someones childhood friend suddenly lunged over, and started whaling on his wife. But he was a Nice guy.

...it seems to me that much of the discussion misses the point. The cartoon is about WOMEN'S experience.

As ThomCat points out, the defenses made for men are really off-topic. The cartoon is NOT about MEN, at all. That would take several dozen other threads, at least. :)

Hope you're doing OK . . .

Instead of getting defensive, how about just admitting that there is a well known epidemic of sexual harassment, sexual bullying, and sexual violence that all women have to face every day of their lives.

Men have the privilege of ignoring this, so most men don't get it. But just take a moment and just consider if you needed to be worried about this every moment of every day every time you met someone and dealt with someone.

If every time you talked to someone you had to be worried about whether or nor a sign of disrespect was going to turn into sexual harassment, how would you respond?

If every time you were sexually harassed you had to worry about whether it was going to escalate into some kind of sexual assault, how would you feel? And if every day you had to plan your activities to deliberately minimize the chances that you would be alone with anyone, to minimize the opportunities for sexual assaults, how would you feel?

If you knew that there were a lot of people out there eager to sexually harass and sexually assault you given the opportunity, how would you feel? And if you knew that they would immediately blame you for it, and almost everyone would let them successfully get away with blaming you for it, how would you feel?

Sexual harassment, sexual assault and rape statistics say that this is the real world! That is real life for women when dealing with a hell of a lot of real men.

Where is that cartoon?

Post the link.

Keep thinking: WWOD?

I think that Obama cares about women and the way they're treated. I think even you would agree with that. WWOD. WWOD. WWOD. Stay it like a mantra.

my husband wouldn´t DARE treat a woman like that. he was raised right.

:thumbsup:

If it does I'm glad I'm not young anymore. Jesus! I remember it only too well. Men like that actually think they're giving women a compliment when all it does is make women feel dirty and insulted.

And not only to the young.

I don't exactly recall where I was but a very attractive female walked in and immediately caught my eye... and I probably stared for a bit too long. And then it dawned on me that she probably deals with similar stares any time she is out in public. That's gotta be uncomfortable - and that was only a stare (this comic illustrates that the stare is likely on the minimal side of things).

While I still notice good-looking women, I make a conscience effort to keep it at just a noticing glance.

Thank you so much for taking a moment to see the situation from a woman's perspective. I could :hug: you right now.

They're all masters of avoiding unwanted feline fights by those quick glances.

male DUers think this is done by only 0.01% of the male population. So there's just a couple of boyz out there harassing women. Any maybe only 3 rapists.

It's amazing that these certain DUers seem to take this 'cartoon' sooooooooo personally. Why is that? Why is the dude so personally defensive? Why?

Maybe there will be a 'on the job harassment' next. Followed by 'at school harassment.'

The boyz love their patriarchy...the root of our dismal and pathetic culture.

People are allowed to disagree with you without being villains.

projecting. I was talking about patriarchy and how it affects our culture and male's attitudes.

You're proving me right.

It's like a fish in water...it doesn't even see the water. Same w/ many regarding patriarchy.

You disagree that we're living in a patriarchy? If so, you need to join the fish.

Maybe thou protest too much?

Actually, you're proving me right instead.

"It's amazing that these certain DUers seem to take this 'cartoon' sooooooooo personally. Why is that? Why is the dude so personally defensive? Why?

Maybe there will be a 'on the job harassment' next. Followed by 'at school harassment'."

Or maybe they just disagree. People are allowed to do that. It doesn't automatically make them future molesters or harassers. The fact that you think it implies that it does is projection on your part, not mine.

You are probably a nice little young man. But I don't have the time or desire to educate you about patriarchy. Google it. Read up. Get an education. Patriarchist isn't even a word. OK?

We live in a patriarchy. That is a fact. You enjoy the entitlements that go along with that.

Rape kits sit on shelves for years. Rapists are rarely incarcerated and if so, not for that long unless they're serial and murder.

So go get a little bit of education cuz I'm so fucking sick of dealing with WILLFULLY IGNORANT people IRL....I'm certainly not going to waste my fucking time dealing with on a so-call 'liberal/progressive' site dealing with more WILLFUL IGNORANCE.

And another one hits the List.

No need to chastise and belittle him.

Save it for the whole slew of male chauvinist pigs that inhabit our world.

Nevertheless, the other points you made still stand.

if he does that to me, right?

I'm outta here.

Real life is enough.

:shrug:

It may not mean what the other poster thought it meant, but it is a word.

40 Patriachists residing in Kilkis, a town in Central Macedonia of Greece?

I wonder if they realize how patriarchy has ruined our planet?

ETA: And The Patriachists from Strumica built the church of Pentekedeka Martyron. They seem to be involved in Organized Religion so that's not a good sign.

Accusing people of antisocial, borderline criminal behavior with NO evidence whatsoever is not, repeat with me, NOT OK.

Posts here getting defensive and demanding that any discussion of harassment against women HAVE to turn into a defense of men really gets irritating.

The idea that 99.99% of men are harmless is absurd. Another thread put it at 99.9999% of men are supposedly benevolent and have nothing but the best interest of women at heart. So saying anything about the harassment women face is somehow an attack against all men, and nobody is every allowed to talk about violence or harassment against women without an automatic disclaimer talking about how absolutely wonderful most men are. :eyes:

Can you imagine if any talk about racism had a mandatory disclaimer first talking about how wonderful white men are? Doesn't that sound like enforcing racism on any discussion of racism?

But that is exactly the sort of thing people are demanding here. You can't discuss anything involving sexism or patriarchy without first reinforcing sexism and patriarchy, because sexism and patriarchy are so wonderful!

The defensiveness of men when talking about what happens to women has to end. Women are the ones who face the harassment and attacks daily. Not men. If any guy here doesn't see themselves in that cartoon, then the cartoon doesn't apply to them. That's the end of it. Special disclaimers should not need to be applied to sooth any guy's wounded ego, because men aren't vulnerable to women in our society. Women are vulnerable to persistent and common abuse from men. That's the whole point of the cartoon, and the point that needs to be discussed.

you for your intelligence.

And to be told that who is my ally?! I'm supposed to like posters because someone tells me to?! That somehow I don't know any better?

My Ignore List has grown again.

I'm so glad I saw your post before I left. It means a lot to me.

Thank you.

:loveya: ThomCat...

:loveya:

With a big heart and huge brain!!!

He may be a good reason for cloning!

it is painting anyone as a villain to point out that the 99.99% number is absolutely totally absurd. It is a ridiculous made up number that has no basis in reality.

I also don't see where it is painting anyone as a villain to say that some people on this thread overreacted and acted defensive. Some people DID overreact and get defensive on this thread.

She didn't accuse anyone of being a villain of any kind. So where did she go too far? :shrug:

Are you one of the people overreacting?

I am confused why so many are offended by the cartoon in the OP especially when such a high percentage of women are claiming, myself is in this number, that the behavior in the OP happens with alarming frequency and is very disconcerting.

I suppose it makes sense that the men HERE find this sort of thing offensive, if only because "our" men are indeed less likely than the "average" man to be bigoted brutes. But what they don't understand is that we women don't LIVE in a world where the other gender is populated solely by male DU'ers. We live in the Really Real World, and frankly, there are a LOT more assholes out there than the male DU'ers seem to comprehend.

I just wish they wouldn't get so pissy at US for pointing it out. Sure, there are a small percentage of men to whom this cartoon doesn't apply. But they are indeed a small percentage. Our male DU'ers don't seem to understand that most of them are the rare, rare exceptions to the overarching rule.

As for defending their gender--I don't understand why men seem to think that they *need* to defend their gender. As a rule, the only people who find it necessary to band together for the common good are people who belong to some sort of oppressed minority. The reason we don't have a "Men's Forum" here at DU, even though we DO have a Women's forum, is the same reason why we don't have a "White Issues" forum even though we DO have an African-American Issues forum. Empowered majorities don't need special protection or space. The whole WORLD is their space.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Thanks.

"Our" guys may not participate in the behavior but they also don't understand how it feels (and you can't tell me they don't believe it happens).

I have heard from many men in my life (and read on these boards) the exact same sentiment expressed in the cartoon. (Check out any teacher/student sex scandal thread - it's the guys here saying they wished a teacher would have come on to them.) They don't understand the power imbalance, the daily barrage and they, as in the cartoon, think it would be GREAT to get that much attention from women.

That's what we should be talking about here. And this cartoon could have been a great way to start having a conversation about that. Instead, as always when a woman's issue is brought up, it still turned out to be All. About. Them.

They can't possibly understand what it's like to view life from a constantly wary perspective.

I wonder if they could honestly imagine what it would be like to be a 5'2", skinny, scrawny guy on an island full of 6'3" stocky, muscled women (where THEY hold the majority of police, government, business, and other "important" jobs, and THEY are the ones who are considered "the leaders" of society) and have them cat-calling at you--especially when a good chunk of the population of those women have been known to TAKE what they want when it isn't freely offered.

the boyz.

Were you here during the primaries when all that hatred was spewed toward women?

I really don't need the lesson on how the Leftie boyz are so 'progressive.' Why do you think the Women's Movement began? All the Leftie boyz had us making copies and getting coffee. Finally we went upstairs and took over that space.

Geez....I need a lesson in being fair to the boyz.

Get me the fuck out of here.

Ohhhh...I see. "Shut up and go play, little girl". How ironic. Not that I said anything or did anything to "lesson" you--it just makes me laugh that someone who claims to concern herself with the empowerment of women has such a terrible problem with allowing other women to speak. What's sad is that you apparently ignored the substance of what I actually SAID.

And for the record? Both before, during, and after the primaries? I was right fucking here, getting labeled as a "DLC hack" just like all the other Clinton supporters. Funny how now WE'RE the ones being called "the Angry Left" and "leftbaggers"--or maybe it's just sick and sad.

Anyway, you apparently you have the capability to type arrogant, bullying drivel whenever your little heart desires to do so. Instead of asking a dismissive "question" that you THINK you already know the answer to, try using it to type my name into the search box. Here, I'll even do the first few for you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6849381

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8257623

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2061095#2063046

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=217&topic_id=5848

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8104413

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=8174863#8174915

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=7976852

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=6990935

In the meantime, if you can't advocate FOR women without acting like an asshole and trying to bully women into shutting up, you are MORE than welcome to get yourself "the fuck out of here".

It just points out that women get harassed and sometimes our spouse boyfriends ect.. don't understand it's harassment they think it's flattery.

I don't get were this cartoon implies in anyway that all males are evil, rapist, molesters.

in some ways this cartoon is almost a Rorschach test. People see what they want to see in it.

The Guys who look at it and get all defensive, insisting that it attacks all men, accusing all men of harassing women, well, this tells us something about them. It tells us more about them than it tells us about the cartoon, because as you rightly pointed out, the cartoon doesn't actually say any of this.

But when they post their defenses of men, insisting that men can't or shouldn't be accused of harassing women, then we might be able to get into some really meaty discussions about responsibility for harassment and violence.

So even a misreading of the cartoon can lead us somewhere. :)

But on the other hand, neither do they realize how common it is. If they don't experience that sort of harassment themslves, they tend to blow it off as not a problem.

Sounds similar.

I took a high school girl (16 years old) to a night baseball game at Fenway Park. We sat in the bleachers in front of two men (Iraq War vets, they claimed) who were commenting on every woman who walked down the steps. Their audible various reviews ranged from "hubbahubba" to "man is she ugly." Alley, the 16-year-old, was afraid to go to the restroom because she didn't want to be the subject of their remarks. It brought back similar experiences I'd had working summers in Boston during high school and walking past constructions sites.

It's a form of bullying and it is up to the good men to say something to their fellow males who do this sort of thing. Those who do it usually have an audience. It's up to the audience members to boo him.

:puke:

to STFU! If we wouldn't put up with that shit, they'd shut up.

I wonder how many people were sitting there enjoying the "entertainment" they were providing. x(

OP tries to start a discussion about the very real harassment that women face on a daily basis, and half the thread is whining about "Not all men are like that!"

No comment. Just found it interesting.

views are treated in many progressive circles, and I hate going through the same damn arguments over and over again. But I loved the cartoon, and wanted to share it.

Thanks for posting.

I usually hide pretty much any gender-based thread. I'm so, so tired of fighting with my own side about so many things.

So true..

...men ARE going to continue have these thoughts. It's part of our nature. We evaluate for sexual potential. And as a general rule we're unfortunately more like chimps than bonobo's when it comes to sex. Highly possessive, and you take what you can get, when you can get it.

The sort of outward behaviour depicted stems from not understanding ourselves. Or worse still denying reality altogether. By choosing to mystify and dirtify sex as a society we create at least half of these problems. Men know behaviour of the sort depicted is wrong, and yet every time they look at a woman their mind is ticking away habouring those thoughts regardless. Not properly knowing why their brain is ignoring "decency"/"morality", some choose to ignore everyone else and go for personal gold.

And no I am not saying that if only we were more like bonobos and girls just put out we wouldn't have these problems. Some human societies seem to have made this accomodation, but it's a rarity and one easily destroyed by even casual encounter with our type. What I am saying, is that while we do not have to accomodate the sexual deviant that lives within, we do have to accept its innate existence and educate accordingly, not simply try to decree it out of existence.

Especially the "dirtifying sex" part. Men in general aren't outwardly the walking GSI cases depicted in the cartoon, but their ingrained nature of sex being this forbidden taboo thing rather than a normal human process serves as the basis of the thoughts still being there. Women know and sense this, even if the reaction isn't verbal. We cannot help ourselves and we're never going to.

I don't think any answer on topics such as these is going to be a correct one, but this comes close. Good job.

Well, at least you're honest.

No amount of demanding on your part will make the slightest bit of difference to the part of the male mind which pants, salivates and cries hubba hubba. Try to eliminate it, rather than understand and control and you get anything from "nice arse, shame about the face" to those mamma's boy, serial rapist/killers on SVU.

No, I am not claiming insanity lets men off the hook. At the extremes you do find true insanity, where the brain is unable to cope with having the dirtiness beaten or prayed out, but mostly it's just ordinary men who let their "instincts" talk, because while they might know that the behaviour is wrong, they don't have a proper understanding of why the message from within is not the same at that from without.

Yes we have our unique brains, but we are also still animals, with animal instincts. Failure to acknowledge this is half the problem here.

Even a basic introduction to meditation, or prayer, or even just having to concentrate on a reasonably common basis will teach anyone to be able to control their thoughts.

As thoughts occur to you, you direct them where you want them. They inevitably wander, and you redirect them back again. They inevitably wander again, and again, and again, and you keep redirecting them.

Having Absolutely NO Ability At All to Control Your Thoughts is abnormal. Having absolutely no Desire at all to want to control your thoughts is also abnormal.

By 1st grade, most kids have at least SOME discipline at controlling their thoughts. By the time kids his puberty they should have enough strength of will and enough training at controlling themselves and their impulses that their thoughts do not totally rule them.

This idea of yours that men are totally rules by their thoughts is insulting and absurd.

thing. It's about anger and power. When men whisper in my ear "I want to fuck your ass" on the subway, I really, really don't think that's what they want to do. I think they want to scare me, to embarrass me, and to make me feel small. And it works.

As I said upthread, I really didn't give this issue much thought a few years ago. The idea that someone would whisper something like that to you on a crowded subway is so foreign to me that if I hadn't had so many women tell me similar stories, I wouldn't believe it.

Keeping this thread kicked because I'm still trying to figure out how to articulate some things on this subject.

And I mean that. It really is shocking the first few times it happens. You want to laugh and cry at the same time. And it's not just the young hood or the creepy damp-crotched guy in the corner -- it's the guy in a suit, it's the guy in the hipster glasses, it's the 15-year-old and the 70-year-old, it's the white guy, the black guy, the Asian guy, the friendly guy, the professional guy. It's exhausting.

Made all the worse when you try to talk to the men in your life about it and they dismiss it with the same apathy as the guy in the comic.

people really say that? To a stranger? Maybe that's why I am so clueless - the most crass thing I ever do is stare, and only when no one is watching

They grope, grab, and tickle. They blow on your neck, whisper in your ear. They yell right in your face. They are charming and polite and make you to be the bad guy for not wanting to engage with someone. "Come on, I'm just being nice!"

It doesn't matter what your age or your looks are or what you're wearing. It doesn't matter if you're walking confidently or hiding.

It can wreck your day. It can take away a good mood and make you feel sad and defensive.

This cartoon is exactly what happens to women.

A hell of a lot of people here make women the bad guy for thinking that harassment, abuse, and assault are issues that should be seriously discussed.

It seems as if some people think that if every post on a thread doesn't start by talking about how wonderful men are, then everyone there is just an evil man-hater. :eyes:

Someday we will get to the point where issues like this can be seriously discussed without the defensiveness. Someday we will get to the point where everyone will be showing up to discuss the problems and discuss actual solutions instead of showing up to get defensive.

That's fucking ridiculous. And trust me, that's exactly what's going to happen to them one day.

groups of guys anywhere. Or even a lone woman faces a single guy who is usually larger than her physically intimidating.

In the vast majority of situations the safest thing to do is just get out of those as quickly as possible and hope it doesn't escalate into a physical confrontation. :(

or, worse shut up and enjoy it. And if we say something and tell them to step off, we're overreacting. If we get mad, we're being bitches. And if we get physical, we're getting hysterical. And if we do nothing, it must not have been that big a deal.

No matter what you do, there will always be people out there willing to attack you and blame you for doing the wrong thing, and say that the whole situation was your fault.

Especially for minority and/or poor women. The more vulnerable a woman is for whatever reason, the worse it gets, and the more blame there is when anything happens.

It's a way to dominate and humiliate women.

x(