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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 07:55 PM
Original message
Where do you fall on the Political Compass?
http://www.politicalcompass.org/index

With all the vituperation against libertarians that is going on here recently I just thought I'd point out that not all libertarians are such horrible people..

Nelson Mandela, Ghandi and the Dalai Lama are all libertarians, left wing libertarians.





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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. The last time I took such a test...
I fell between Gandhi and Mother Teresa... I laughed my ass off!
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
88. delete
Edited on Sat Oct-09-10 03:27 AM by sakabatou
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. You think that Gandhi would be fine with letting that house burn
I don't having read Gandhi.

And no, he was not a libertarian, but much closer to a SOCIAL democrat, who had a deep sense of SOCIAL JUSTICE.

And Mandela is further left than down... aka he was more of a SOCIAL DEMOCRAT.

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 07:59 PM
Original message
This particular chart is from Australia...
I can't seem to find the test we were all taking years ago.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. It changes from year to year
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Did you really have to carry the argument from another thread onto this one?
I thought that was discouraged on DU?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. No, but here you go on ghandi
http://www.mahatma.com/php/showContent.php?linkid=8

Jesus age, I guess eduction is not a goal anymore

I guess it is time to make that iggy list grow ...
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #7
66. I despise close-mindedness, Left, Right, or Center. Please put me on ignore ("iggy"): thanks. n/t.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Oh, dear. Didn't you create this OP from a post you made in
another thread? I do that sometimes, when I think I've said something particularly clever and just can't wait to share it with a larger audience. It's not one of my best traits, really. I'm almost certain I saw your chart in another thread. Maybe I was mistaken. That happens to me sometimes. If so, please accept my apologies.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Why are you apologizing?
IIRC, a large majority of DU is in the lower left quadrant of the PC..

I'm sure you fit in some other quadrant though.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Oh, you'd be surprised at which quadrant I fit in. But, I'll let you guess.
That's ever so much more fun.

So, do you self-describe as a libertarian or Libertarian? That's really interesting, if true. I've often wondered how many in that political minority post on DU. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course. I mean to say...some of my best friends...no, that's not right either. Oh, heck...I have nothing against libertarians, per se, of course. They're probably really nice people, bless their hearts. Wait...I'm just not getting my feelings expressed well this evening. Must be those two gin and tonics, I guess. Maybe, tomorrow...
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
29. Here's my results from that test, taken absolutely truthfully
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-7.75&soc=-6.72

You'll have to click the link to see the chart. Surprising, huh?

So, let's see yours, now.

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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Last time I took it I was right on top of the Dalai Lama..
And you said you weren't going to reveal your score just a little while ago.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. Gandhi wouldn't have let the house burn.
Edited on Fri Oct-08-10 08:54 PM by LWolf
This political compass is not based on exclusively modern American definitions of political or economic terms.

17. You can't be libertarian and left wing

This is almost exclusively an American response, overlooking the undoubtedly libertarian tradition of European anarcho-syndicalism. It was, after all, the important French anarchist thinker Proudhon who declared that property is theft.

On the other side of the Atlantic, the likes of Emma Goldman were identified as libertarians long before the term was adopted by some economic rightwingers. And what about the libertarian collectives of the mid-late 1800s and 1960s ?

Americans like Noam Chomsky can claim the label 'libertarian socialist' with the same validity that Milton Friedman can be considered a 'libertarian capitalist'.

The assumption that economic deregulation inevitably delivers more social freedom is flawed. The welfare states of, for example, the Nordic region, abolished capital punishment decades ago and are at the forefront of progressive legislation for women, gays and ethnic minorities - not to mention anti-censorship. Such established high-tax social democracies consistently score highest in the widely respected Freedom House annual survey on democratic rank eg Denmark ranks 2, Sweden 3 and Norway 7, while comparatively free markets such as the US, Singapore and China rate 15,74 and 121 respectively (this detailed checklist can be viewed at http://www.worldaudit.org/civillibs.htm).

Despite their higher taxes, the social democracies' degree of social freedoms would presumably be envied by genuine libertarians in more socially conservative countries.

Our point is that a regulated economy and a strong public sector are not necessarily authoritarian, and a deregulated economy with a minimal public sector is not necessarily socially libertarian.

Interestingly, many economic libertarians express to us their support for or indifference towards capital punishment; yet the execution of certain citizens is a far stronger assertion of state power than taxation. The death penalty is practised in all seriously authoritarian states. In Eastern Europe it was abolished with the fall of communism and adoption of democracy. The United States is the only western democracy where capital punishment is still practised.



http://www.politicalcompass.org/faq#faq16









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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #41
79. Libertarianism is not Anarchism.
Most certainly not the modern American libertarian movement. Swapping government control of society for unregulated corporate control IS NOT anti-authoritarian.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #79
99. Gandhi was an Anarchist
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #79
104. There's certainly more than one definition.
Trying to graft the "modern American" definition onto a construct that doesn't use the term in that way doesn't negate the accuracy, or usefulness, of the compass.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. It certainly diminishes its usefulness
Edited on Sat Oct-09-10 01:01 PM by Radical Activist
to use terms in ways that are misleading. It's a little deceptive to use an uncommon definition to a common term in ways that are likely to lead people to false conclusions. I don't typically use antiquated meanings of modern words without telling people. Authoritarian/Anti-Authoritarian would have been more descriptive.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #105
115. It's not at all misleading, if you read the explanation of the compass.
Only if you are one who thinks the solar system revolves around the U.S., and that words, and ideas, aren't legitimate or real outside U.S. borders.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. Yeah, sure because everyone reads every page of the site.
Come on. And there are plenty of political scientists in other countries who make the same distinction.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #116
118. Anybody who wants to know what positions on the compass mean
Edited on Sat Oct-09-10 03:48 PM by LWolf
will read enough to inform themselves. Otherwise it's pretty useless. People who want to discuss the merits, or not, of that particular compass ought to have informed themselves first, imo.


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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
75. Gandhi was anti-authoritarian.
But you're absolutely right that he was no Libertarian.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yah, I saw that in the other thread. The thing about Libertarians,
though, is that they're all Linux consultants or something. How many of those do we need, really? Come the revolution, all the libertarians are going to have to be retrained to do something useful. I'm thinking beauty school, maybe, or medical transcription. What do you think?

Now, Gandhi...he knew better than to learn Linux and try to convince people that it was the operating system of the future. He thought about it, and decided to free India from British rule. Now, that's a useful thing.

But, heck...I don't care anyhow. I've got mine. The heck with the rest of y'all! :rofl:
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. BWAAHAHAHA!
I'm not sure why, maybe because of the Linux stuff, but I just remembered reading somewhere that North Korea only has Beta... :rofl:
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
19. But, North Korea's very open about it, I understand....
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I've been with PCs since about DOS 3.0 or something..
I have tried various flavors of Linux but I'm nowhere near being able to consult on it.

Oh, and "Libertarians" are not the same thing as "libertarians".

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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. So, you're a libertarian? Just not a successful Linux consultant.
Well, you keep at it and you'll be able to consult sooner than you think. The competition's fierce, though, I hear, for the 1000 potential users out there. I know you can succeed, though. If the worst happens, there's always barber college. All those boomer barbers are thinking about retiring, so it's going to be a growth industry, I'm sure. I have every confidence in you.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I must admit you have an awesome talent for snark..
It's your best trait, I think.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Oh, I'm a man of many traits, as you'll discover.
Many traits, indeed.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Then why is it that your talent for snark is the only one you reveal here?
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
30. Go look at my journal, fumesucker.
Then, go look at my chart from your little test. It's the result I got after taking it, answering all questions truthfully.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-7.75&soc=-6.72
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. I judge by your posts that I read right here on GD..
The most memorable one I think was when you called some fellow DUers who disagreed with you spiteful, that was truly a masterpiece of snark.



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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
54. You're slightly more leftist and I'm slightly more libertarian
But you and I are practically next door neighbors

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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #54
102. I'm one box to the left of you.
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lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. Where does that put Mac users?
Move over, Josef!
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. Similar to another one before
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-1.75&soc=-7.18

Economic Left/Right: -1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.18
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stray cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
14. None of the above - I am a person not a convenient item that can be boxed to please others
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Another master of snark shows up on the thread..
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #21
84. Actually this "test" shows up on DU at least once a year...
So it isn't exactly new here. The dubiousness of the questions and the insipid simplicity of the categories should be called into question. People not knowing that it's designed by libertarians and the questions framed so blatantly to make everybody who takes it a libertarian, if they don't want to look bad. The unsuspecting take it and "Surprise!" they're a libertarian! Get rid of Social Security now!

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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. Sorry, but we all end up in a box in the end.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. To be precise, some of us end up in an urn..
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. True.
I actually thought about that, but I didn't want to ruin my amazingly inane one liner.
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #25
86. But parts of us can live on in others.
Too bad we can't tell them that my liver wouldn't be caught in a minivan, so my donee will have to buy another car.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
17. Southwest of the Dalai Lama.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
18. Left wing libertarian here.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. I'm debating whether or not to count this thread as a fire thread.
As for the actual OP...

Here's my outcome.

Economic Left/Right: -5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.72

So lefty-libertarian, which means lefty economics and libertarian social views, I suppose. I suspect that many Democrats are in the same boat.

Or maybe not?

:shrug:
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Many Democrats but not that many Democratic politicians..
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Hmm. Very interesting.
:toast:
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yep..
Which is why I think so many Democrats are so often disappointed with our Democratic politicians.

:hi:

:toast:
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
55. I love the way my man Mike Gravel stands out there
in a category all by himself. :rofl: I'm not in the same quandrant as he is, but I really like the old guy.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. The whole bottom of that graph is pretty damn lonely but you're correct..
Gravel stands alone..

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
34. i took this test a couple years ago. fuck no, i am not gonna say where i fell
Edited on Fri Oct-08-10 08:51 PM by seabeyond
lol

ah hahaha
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Oh, you're such a tease..
:evilgrin:

:hi:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
35. Slightly more libertarian and left than Ghandi. Even I'm surprised, nt
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
36. left libertarian.
A little further to the left than Mandela or Gandhi, a little further south than the Dalai Lama.

I've taken it several times over the years, but my position doesn't change.

What's interesting to me is the placement of American politicians. I find it to be accurate.



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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I agree about American politicians..
I think the placement is quite accurate.

It's interesting how the Democratic politicians closest to the majority on DU seem to come in for the most ridicule here.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Because the Democratic Party is not "left wing,"
and this site, when faced with the conflict of identifying as both partisan and "left wing," always defaults to partisan.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. You may be right..
It just seems strange to me that a bunch of leftist libertarians are most likely to denigrate those politicians of their party who have the most political characteristics in common with them and praise those are diametrically opposite.

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #44
96. I've never understood it, either.
I finally chalked it up to "pragmatism," or to the simple unwillingness to "be the change."
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
39. Economic Left/Right: -9.62 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.08
I'm all the way in the bottom left corner. :)
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. ...
:hi:
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
43. I'm right next to the Dalai Lama. Yes--- the folks here who think "libertarian" means "doody head"
always go absolutely bugfuck whenever the Political Compass is referenced.

It's not helped by the fact that there are control freaks and morality hand-wringers who are all too happy to conflate the people who think police and sewer service should be privatized with the people who think it should be legal for consenting adults to eat cheesecake filled pancakes, smoke pot, and look at porn.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. You're correct about control freaks and moralistic hand wringers..
And I'm right there next to the Dalai Lama with you..

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
46. Economic Left/Right: -7.75, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.03
Edited on Fri Oct-08-10 09:12 PM by Odin2005
Yes, I am a LEFT-LIBERTARIAN
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
47. I think that test is misleading - the political compass not only has more points
But is 3 dimensional as well...
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. There may be an infinite number of dimensions on the actual political compass..
But the one presented on this OP is considerably better and less misleading than the left-right one that is derived from seating in the French Parliament in 1789.

The representation of a thing is never the thing itself, only an approximation of greater or lesser accuracy.

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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #49
101. Needs a green to free-market polluter z axis
Not to mention war to peace....
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
48. Economic Left/Right: -8.62 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.26
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
50. I've taken this test several times.
Right now I'm at -7.25 for the economic left/right thing and

-6.77 on the social libertarian. My beliefs are most like Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Interesting that not a single poster has yet landed in the upper right quadrant..
Indeed, most of them are well to the left or well to the bottom and some are both..

But all of the "serious" politicians are in the upper right quadrant to one degree or another.

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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. Yes, I always found that fascinating, as well.
I've been a left-leaning libertarian for as long as I can remember, and I keep waiting for Democratic politicians to lean my way for a long, long time. I just turned 64 and I'm wondering if I'll see it in my lifetime.

If the energy the US puts into wars were put into solving the problems that we face domestically, we could do amazing things. Possible solutions to our problems seem so logical and doable to me; I can't understand why we aren't moving forward faster. It really is our only hope. The old ways aren't working.
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
51. I'm lower lefter than Gandhi, dammit
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. No wonder you come across as such a purist..
;)

:hi:

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RevCommie Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
53. I am a commie...
I'm in the very bottom left corner.

Approx: -9.8 economic scale and -9.3 social scale
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MrScorpio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Prove it
Sing The Internationale!
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applegrove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
58. I usually end up near Ghandi.
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Lucian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
61. -6.00, -7,90
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Zing Zing Zingbah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
62. Economic Left/Right: -6.50, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.49 nt
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
63. I'm a Communist-Anarchist on that scale......
I scared myself.



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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
64. Economic Left/Right: 0.12 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.49
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. I have to say you're the first poster to get a positive score on either axis..
Let alone both..

:hi:
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #69
124. This test has been posted here at DU many times and....
I have yet to see any other member post similar scores to mine. I've always considered myself to be a moderate Democrat and DU is made up mostly of liberals with a smattering of far leftists.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
65. Economic Left/Right: -7.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03
Not far from our friend Gandhi.
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the redcoat Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
67. -6.12, -4.51. If someone has a freeper account, I'd love to see how those users end up. nt
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-08-10 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. I'm not sure the scale goes that far to the authoritarian right..
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
70. I like this one. Came out even lower and lefter than last time, I think. Gandhi, you fascist!
:)
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
71. I love this test, and I don't mind taking it AGAIN.
Especially since so many people here have accused me of being DLC, DINO, Centrist, etc. just because I believe in real Progressivism and understand that "Rome wasn't built in a day" and that if you want REAL change, it takes time.

So, to all those who think that I can't be a Liberal unless I agree with their narrow perceptions (which, frankly, is the defintion of an anti-Liberal), EAT IT!

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -8.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.33


Yep, I'm pretty goddamned Liberal. I just want to see Liberalism succeed. I'm in it for the long run.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #71
74. I can sympathize.
I'm strongly progressive on the issues. But I get called DLC because I dare to correct the spin, hysteria, and outright lies about Obama. It's twisted.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. Going by the graph Obama is a right of center moderate authoritarian..
Hardly someone that progressives or liberals should be jumping up and down in glee about.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #77
78. I understand the concept of progress.
Obama is taking us in the right direction, more left and anti-authoritarian than w here we were two years ago. The main limit to him doing even more, is not lack of will on his part, but the US Senate. Throughout American history, progress has almost always happened one step at a time, and Obama is taking us on the next step forward.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. Believe it or not but a lot of us who disagree with you a lot understand the concept of progress too
Obama's not a social libertarian and he's not an economic leftist, there is no way he's going to turn this vast ocean liner of a country away from the reefs to starboard by putting the rudder a little less far in that direction, it will take a sharp turn to port because we don't have much time and our social and political inertia is monstrous.

We are still moving towards those reefs to the starboard, just a little less quickly now.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. No, we're on a new course. After 30 years of deregulation Obama is re-regulating
Edited on Sat Oct-09-10 01:29 AM by Radical Activist
every sector of our economy from health care, to banking, lending, credit cards, and energy. Bellyaching about compromises in those bills does not change the reality that we're headed in a fundamentally different direction than we've been going since Reagan took the White House.
I don't know what causes the inability to acknowledge that but it's something other than ideology. Cynicism? Weighed down by too many past disappointments?

All of these changes set up the kind of long term institutional reforms that will keep things going in the right direction. Such as the HCR provision that allows states to set up a single payer system. Once one state does it, others will see if it works well and then follow suit.
Obama is not Bill Clinton. He isn't slowing the decline. He's reversing it. This is what progress looks like.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. Perspective..
It's one of the very few benefits of getting older, you gain a certain historical perspective.

Mark Twain said that history does not repeat itself but it does rhyme, it is the perspective of seeing a goodly chunk of modern history that allows some of us to perceive the rhymes.

Sooner or later the Republicans will take over again, I thought after Nixon that we would't see a Republican president for a generation, you might recall how that worked out and I have no intention of making that particular mistake again.

Republicans will take power, leave the mandate in place because their real base hearts it big time and then they will strip out every single "protection" the Democrats have put in place, the Democrats will then be tarred with the mandate which will be intensely unpopular. The media, as usual, will go along with the Republican framing and the public will buy it.

Johnson said that civil rights for blacks would lose the South for the Dems for a generation, the mandate with no protection will banish the Dems from power for a generation.

Income inequality is increasing at a rapid pace, we are at Gilded Age levels of inequality and the pace of that change is only increasing, a study was completed early this year which determined that as income inequality increased, the population at the top and bottom becomes more conservative. They vote for more of the policies that made them rich and poor. As Obama famously noted, when people lose hope they tend to cling to their guns and their religion and I will add that they cling to their conservative politics.


http://web.utk.edu/~nkelly/papers/inequality/KellyEnns_preprint.pdf

Read it and weep, I've got grandchildren and I know I did.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. Perspective is good.
Yet, there are other less helpful attitudes that sometimes come with age. There's a good reason why revolutions are lead by those young enough not to know all the reasons why they shouldn't bother.

This conversation reminds me of a meeting I was at a few years ago in a local activist group. I won't say which one since I'm mostly anonymous here. I suggested a new idea that received the usual negative response from several curmudgeons who had been on the board for at least 20 years. "Well, we tried that before and it didn't work." I had heard that many times before so this time I asked when the last time they tried it. "Oh...about 15 years ago." I suggested that it was time to try again. So we did and it turned out to be a huge success. The negative comments from the "no we can't" crew have become much less frequent over the past few years since then.

Sometimes the experience of too many defeats and disappointments isn't helpful.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #83
85. How many "revolutions" are actually successful?
It's a pretty small percentage and when your'e talking political revolutions the success rate is even lower and the consequences are often utterly horrendous either way.

A common aphorism in my field is that technical expertise is in direct proportion to the amount of equipment you have ruined, in other words you learn more from what you have done wrong than what you have done right. Young people just haven't had enough experience screwing up to have any idea of all the myriad ways things can go catastrophically fubar.

It's like watching a young child at the table with a drink near their arm, the person who has never really been around kids thinks nothing of it, the experienced parent knows there's an excellent chance that the drink will be on the floor or all over the table in a remarkably short period of time.

Watching your children grow is a sort of way of recapitulating your own childhood, you see things from the other end of the telescope so to speak. I'm now learning a whole new set of lessons from watching my grandchildren grow in turn, I see my daughter making some of the same mistakes as a parent that I made and I'm realizing as she makes those mistakes that they are indeed mistakes.

Perhaps you have heard the old joke "Hire teenagers while they still know everything"?

There's a good reason that we don't allow young people full freedoms of adults until they reach a certain age and there's a good reason that the presidency of the US has an even older age requirement, it's because experience is the best teacher and it takes time to accumulate experiences.







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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #85
87. I don't believe experience is put to good use
by telling everyone why everything they're doing is a waste of time without offering constructive alternatives.

You wrote: "Young people just haven't had enough experience screwing up to have any idea of all the myriad ways things can go catastrophically fubar."

Yes, I believe that was my point. That's why the young try things that more experienced people will think is a mistake or a waste of time. But that's what you have to do. That's how progress is made. You can't succeed if you don't try.

History is full of examples of repeated failures that are forgotten because one time it finally worked. How many times before the 60's did Presidents waste their time introducing civil rights bills full of half-measures? How many times was Martin Luther King warned by his elders about what would happen if he was too aggressive about defying white leaders? They knew from experience what would happens so they didn't try. That's why it was mostly high school students being hosed down in Birmingham. Many of the experienced adults in town had already abandoned the marches because they knew how everything could go fubar.
Think about that the next time you want to make a condescending remark about teenagers. It was high school students and younger who desegregated Birmingham with Martin Luther King after the experienced, hopeless, cynical adults who "knew better" had given up.

The teenagers and children didn't know any better but to keep trying.

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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. But Obama is opposed to the latest civil rights campaign..
It's really ironic that you mention the civil rights marchers, they wanted equal treatment under the law.

Obama is opposed to gay marriage, the latest incarnation of the civil rights marchers are gays who demand equal treatment under the law.

Unless and until gays are allowed every single right that non gays are allowed, including the right to marry, they will not be equal under the law.

It's also telling that you had to go back nearly fifty years to get this terribly flawed example.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #90
103. Ok, change the subject if you want. Obama supports extending all the legal rights
Edited on Sat Oct-09-10 12:16 PM by Radical Activist
of marriage to same sex couples. He supports the next very big step forward. Which goes back to the original point that I think you have a hard time understanding how progress works.

The civil rights marchers were not asking for full legal equality on all issues. They usually marched for a specific goal that represented the next strategic step forward. Such as the right to vote, which would give them more power to keep pushing for equality. See how that works?
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #103
106. "The civil rights marchers were not asking for full legal equality on all issues."
I know you don't believe that crap..

Why do you even bother?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Look up what they were marching for in Birmingham.
Edited on Sat Oct-09-10 01:19 PM by Radical Activist
I knew you'd seize on that line as a general statement and miss the point. Was it intentional? You are just playing games right? It's fine if you just come here to fuck with people rather than have an honest exchange of ideas. You can admit that.

In Birmingham they had a march to get the county clerk to register African-Americans.
They boycotted and marched to desegregate downtown businesses.
They had a sit-in to desegregate the public library.
Then they got a friendlier mayor elected and defeated Bull Connor as Sheriff.

In each case they were pushing for the next strategic step forward. At no point did they say, "we want full equality on each and every issue today or nothing at all!" There never was an "all or nothing" march in Birmingham. Do you get it yet?
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #108
111. The Birmingham marchers were not marching for separate but equal..
We all know that separate but equal is never really equal.

I grew up where separate but equal was the mode of the day, it was separate but it damn sure was nowhere near equal.

Obama wishing gays to accept separate but equal is utter and complete bullshit, his parents would not have been able to legally marry in a number of states when he was born and yet he wishes to force that condition on others who wish to marry.

On this subject Obama is a world class hypocrite and anyone who claims not to see it is lying through their teeth, it's blatantly obvious.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. Obama supports full equal rights
with all the legal benefits of marriage for same sex couples. Are you trying to compare that with the injustice of segregation and Jim Crow? That would be grossly ignorant of history and offensive to those who suffered under Jim Crow. Obama is pushing for the next major step forward, just like the civil rights leaders of the 50's and 60's did.

You argue just like a conservative talk radio listener. If anyone makes a solid point against their argument they ignore it to change the subject or chase a tangent. Now you're just repeating your previous argument without responding to my point, just like the talk radio crowd does. It's just as irritating and juvenile when progressives do it.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #112
119. Obama supports separate but equal...
Edited on Sat Oct-09-10 04:24 PM by Fumesucker
And separate but equal is never really equal, that's the reason it's separate.

He's a world class hypocrite.

I don't argue any differently than you do.

ETA: If Obama's goal was actual equality then there would be no logical reason for him to oppose gays getting married.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #71
76. Rome may not have been built in a day...
But the Vandals certainly sacked it in not a whole lot more than a day..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Rome_(455)

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
72. Same range as usual. : -8.12 -8.72
Edited on Sat Oct-09-10 12:43 AM by Radical Activist
Anti-authoritarian left.

But Libertarians are not anti-authoritarian. They simply prefer corporate domination of society over government control of society. The Libertarian party and movement are a corporate fraud.
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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
73. Further Left
Further down from the Dalai Lama.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
89. Economic Left/Right: -7.50 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.31
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
91. I stayed on the chart (barely) without falling off the left edge!
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -8.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.13

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-8.75&soc=-7.13
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ipaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
92. Economic Left/Right: -8.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.87
A fish out of water with no political representation in this country. Oh well.
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Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
93. -6.12, -4.36.... it seems I am more moderate than most DUers (but not all)
Edited on Sat Oct-09-10 09:34 AM by Motown_Johnny
Honestly, this seems about right to me. I am a lefty, but not an extreme lefty and I lean toward libertarianism but not extreme there either.


Pretty good test, more accurate than I expected.




Edit to add.. this puts me right between Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama and pretty close to Gandhi (that is kinda funny to me)
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
94. Bogus

Left Libertarian is an oxymoron. The Left since the mid-19th century has been understood as socialist and the avowed enemy of Capitalism. Libertarianism as it exist in the 20th century is purely a reaction to the growth and success of the Left in those times. Libertarianism is nothing but an excuse for Capitalism, all the rest of the 'good stuff' that people like to cite is secondary to the primary issue, who controls the means of production and what they do with it. That is the only 'freedom' which matters, it controls everything else.

A story:

http://socialistindependent.org/anax01.htm
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Motown_Johnny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #94
95. then what do you think the opposite of Authoritarian is?
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #95
97. The premise of the compass is bogus

The authoritarian/libertarian axis is nonexistent. Libertarians are completely capable of acting in an authoritarian manner when it comes to the defense of Property. Likewise authoritarians may grant liberties which do not challenge their authority.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #97
107. You are confusing the big L Libertarian party with small libertarianism..
You are correct about the American Libertarian party, you are incorrect about libertarianism.

Authoritarianism is indeed the opposite of (small l) libertarianism.

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
98. Left-Libertarian - AKA Anarchist.
"Freedom is the absolute right of all adult men and women to seek permission for their actions only from their own conscience and reason, and to be determined in their actions only by their own will, and consequently to be responsible only to themselves, and then to the society to which they belong, but only insofar as they have made a free decision to belong to it." Mikhail Bakunin
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
100. I always come up to the left of Gandhi.
I must be a liberal.
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lunatica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
109. I'm a progressive social democrat
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SargeUNN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
110. while always fun these test aren't too worthwhile
they are usually skewed one way or the other (depending on who puts it together) so they are pretty likely going to give a desired results. As for libertarians we have seen them here in Arizona in our government and it has proven to be a bad results, but of course many call themselves Libertarians also are in office as Republicans so it skews the appearance. They tend to hide their libertarianism when it isn't a positive act and claim their libertarianism when it is.
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LLStarks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
113. Southeast of Gandhi. Economic Left/Right: -1.88 | Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.54
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
114. It lets you play with the states too...
Edited on Sat Oct-09-10 03:08 PM by rrneck
Senators are voted for directly in statewide fall elections. They cast votes on any Congressional bills. They also have six-year terms, and have a strong statistical trend of incumbents being re-elected, which makes them less susceptible to small shifts in the electorate and more representative of a state's long-term views. Also, since each state gets two, a state with relatively equal Republican and Democratic blocs will tend to have a senator from each party, while states with a clear preference for a party tend to have two senators from that party.

Plotting all fifty states on-screen would be a visual mess. However, using the controls below, you can pick any combination of states to display on the chart.

These readings are based on their senators' opinions, NOT on the general public opinion at any given time within the state. This might make some of the readings seem surprising. For instance, many states which are considered "battleground" states in the 2008 general election actually have two senators of the same party and/or two senators with similar voting records, pushing their reading away from the middle and toward a more "red" or "blue" position. The senators' views (the actual reading) often correlate with the public opinion in the state, making this chart an interesting way to look at state opinions. Bear in mind that this will not always be the case.


States with two Dem senators.



States with two Rep senators.



States with one each.



And here's me.



I had a bottle of tequila around here somewhere.
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MrSlayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
117. I'm just to the left of Ghandi.
As usual.
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Rhiannon12866 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
120. Economic Left/Right: -5.88, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.56
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.56
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
121. 'Libertarian' is used in different ways
Before British political discourse became so influenced by American political discourse, 'libertarian' was generally understood mainly as 'pro-civil-liberties' and was not associated with the economic right. The term used here for 'libertarianism' in its American sense was 'laissez-faire' - clearly influenced by French rather than American politics.

It is great to be libertarian in the sense of pro-civil-liberties, but economic 'libertarianism' is a bad thing.

BTW, I got -7.5 for economic views, and -7.54 for social views.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. You are correct..
Libertarian has been ruined by the left the same way that liberal has been ruined by the right in American politics, the original meanings of both words have been distorted out of all recognition by using them to demonize a particular group.

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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #122
127. I don't think it's mainly been ruined by the left..
I think it's been taken over by the right to imply that personal and social freedom are threatened by any government intervention into the economy, and that as one of the items with which I 'strongly disagreed' stated, 'The freer the market, the freer the people'.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #127
128. That's big l Libertarianism..
The term libertarian is not the same thing as the Libertarian party.

What does being a Republican have to do with maintaining a Republic?

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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #128
130. True - but at least in the UK, right-wingers sometimes use 'libertarian' approvingly
There is essentially no Libertarian Party in the UK, so they are being influenced by American political terminology, not referring to a party. 'Classical liberal' is sometimes used in the same way.

For that matter, in the last year or two, I've noticed a few Tories describing themselves as 'Republican', meaning that they feel supportive of American Republican candidates. In the UK traditionally 'Republican' means either anti-monarchy, or in favour of Northern Ireland splitting from the UK to become part of the Republic of Ireland - so it seems odd to hear Tories (who rarely support either of the two above policies) describing themselves by this term.
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Iterate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
123.  -10.00, -8.26: Liberté, égalité, fraternité.
I have to admit this redefinition of the Bill of Rights as "individual" rights and of libertarianism as the opposite of authoritarianism is really starting to get under my skin as well.

The opposite of authoritarianism is communitarianism, equitably and socially distributed power and authority, as in "the right of the people".

Try looking at the Bill of Rights, for example, as mutually beneficial rights valuable to the community as a whole and it starts to make even more sense and becomes more easily defensible.

Do that and other rights are suggested by the exercise, such as the right to equitably participate in the working life of the nation, and not as individuals at the mercy of a commodity labor market. Do that exercise and the right of monopoly media ownership disappears.
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Yeshuah Ben Joseph Donating Member (763 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-09-10 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
125. Be sure to show this to all the teabaggers who call themselves "Christians"


Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -8.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
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canetoad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. Wish I could say
I was holier than thou.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-10-10 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #126
129. that thayr tayst iz wroten buy thaym thyer enterlekshool liebrul eyeleetist.
Edited on Sun Oct-10-10 09:08 AM by Fumesucker
wee hoo kin reed god noes theyums rong

haa haaa ah fizehd mah wun msithakee godcha stoopd lybruhls

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