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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:21 PM
Original message
Is Michael Moore adding insult to injury
Is Michael Moore adding insult to injury for all the abused and tortured detainees at Guantanamo?

I'm risking a comment on a movie I have not seen, and I will happily retract my statement if someone who has seen it tells me I'm wrong. But with all the yaying for Sicko, I can't help but think Moore may have just dealt a huge blow to human rights advocates and everyone who is repulsed by the torture and the warrantless detention.

I am referring to this:


'Sicko' stars thank Moore for Cuba trip - USATODAY.com

In the film, Moore takes them to Cuba and tries to get them treated at the U.S. base at Guantanamo Bay — where, he contends, terror suspects were getting better medical care than the heroes of 9/11.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2007-05-19-michael-moore-cuba_N.htm?csp=34


To the extent that this is true, it surely serves Moore's satirical purpose. But Moore's movie is bound to be hugely popular, and if I'm reading the reviews correctly, the audiences - especially people not previously concerned about the ongoing abuse and torture - will leave theaters under impression that the detainees are practically vacationing at Guantanamo!

Am I wrong?

Because if I'm right, it's a horrible way to be helping the 9/11 responders - themselves treated in a shameful manner - at the expense of the detainees, tortured and deprived of all rights. I'm really concerned that this particular stunt by Moore may be doing a huge disservice to the detainees, as well as their lawyers, who're battling in courts and getting defeated most of the time. It would be truly vile to belittle the detainees' plight just to make a generic point about US health care. Especially that both the responders and the detainees have in the end been victimized by the same criminal group of psychopaths.

Repeat all caveats about commenting on a movie I haven't seen. I hope I'm wrong and that Sicko is not carrying the torch for the torturers. I just get that impression from the writeups.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. LOL
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. I hope not, too.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for your concern.
:eyes:I'd wait to see the movie before you are ready to critique what could be one of the most important documentaries of this decade.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I did add the disclaimer
Edited on Mon May-21-07 05:39 PM by marekjed
-- twice :)

It's just that with all the praise heaped on the movie (including by those who haven't seen it, which at this time is most people), this one aspect sticks out like heck, and no-one else has commented on it.

As has been reported (and ignored), doctors are employed at Guantanamo and other camps to keep track of the detainees' condition - basically, as I understand it, to tell the tortuers when to stop so they don't kill the victims.

The Guardian:

Abu Ghraib doctors knew of torture, says Lancet report
2007-02-02

Army doctors at the Abu Ghraib prison west of Baghdad falsified medical records to cover up torture and human rights abuses perpetrated on Iraqi detainees, the British medical journal the Lancet reported today.

It called for a full inquiry into reform of the military health system to address the failure of army medical staff to live up to their code of ethics and a professional obligation to care for their patients.

The journal published an article by Steven Miles, a professor of bioethics at the University of Minnesota, saying that American army doctors and nurses had been fully aware of torture and degrading treatment at Abu Ghraib, but did not blow the whistle before an official inquiry began in January.

(snip)

· Medical personnel and medical information were used to design and implement psychologically and physically coercive interrogations.

(snip)

An example of the ethical failings of medical personnel came in November 2003 after Iraqi Major General Mowhoush's head was pushed into a sleeping bag while interrogators sat on his chest.

(snip)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1287158,00.html



And even TIME:


TIME.com: How Doctors Got Into the Torture Business
2006-06-25
Some of the medical involvement in torture defies belief. In one of the few actual logs we have of a high-level interrogation, that of Mohammed al-Qhatani (first reported in TIME), doctors were present during the long process of constant sleep deprivation over 55 days, and they induced hypothermia and the use of threatening dogs, among other techniques. According to Miles, Medics had to administer three bags of medical saline to Qhatani — while he was strapped to a chair — and aggressively treat him for hypothermia in the hospital. They then returned him to his interrogators. Elsewhere in Guantánamo, one prisoner had a gunshot wound that was left to fester during three days of interrogation before treatment, and two others were denied antibiotics for wounds. In Iraq, according to the Army surgeon general as reported by Miles, "an anesthesiologist repeatedly dropped a 2-lb. bag of intravenous fluid on a patient; a nurse deliberately delayed giving pain medication, and medical staff fed pork to Muslim patients." Doctors were also tasked at Abu Ghraib with "Dietary Manip (monitored by med)," in other words, using someone's food intake to weaken or manipulate them.

Of the 136 documented deaths of prisoners in detention, Miles found, medical death certificates were often not issued until months or even years after the actual deaths. One prisoner's corpse at Camp Cropper was kept for two weeks before his family or criminal investigators were notified. The body was then left at a local hospital with a certificate attributing death to "sudden brainstem compression." The hospital's own autopsy found that the man had died of a massive blow to the head. Another certificate claimed a 63-year-old prisoner had died of "cardiovascular disease and a buildup of fluid around his heart." According to Miles, no mention was made that the old man had been stripped naked, doused in cold water and kept outside in 40° cold for three days before cardiac arrest.

Other doctors just looked the other way, their military duty overruling the Hippocratic Oath. One at Abu Ghraib intervened to ask guards to stop beating one prisoner's wounded leg and quit hanging him from an injured shoulder. He saw it happen three times. He never reported it. In Mosul, according to Miles, one medic witnessed guards beating a prisoner and burning him by dragging him over hot stones. The prisoner was taken to the hospital, treated and then returned by doctors to his torturers. An investigation into the incidentwas closed because the medic didn't sign the medical record and so he couldn't be identified.

(snip)

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1207633,00.html


These are the doctors Moore claims take better care of the detainees than the 9/11 responders are getting in the US.

(Admittedly both reports concern Abu Ghraib, but I see no reason to expect the situation at Gitmo is any different.)
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. So what are you REALLY advocating here?
That people that are detained don't deserve any medical treatment (even though many have not been charged with anything nor did they do anything)?
And by the way...you might do a quick google on Cuban Docs. THEY aren't the ones that work at Gitmo--they are the ones that are saving lives in Cuba (including the 911 first responders).
The Gitmo guys are American military doctors.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. See my post below, the Truthout article
Edited on Mon May-21-07 05:45 PM by marekjed
What I'm saying is that anyone who claims Gitmo detainees are getting any sort of good treatment from their doctors is an apologist for torture. And that I hope Moore is NOT doing that, but this is the impression I get of his "stunt", where he apparently shows that Gitmo detainees get better care than the 9/11 responders.

It is preposterous if it is true. But there is approximately zero chance of it being true, since we know the doctors at Gitmo are there to assist the torturers. Again, see the truthout piece I'm referncing below.

ed: typo
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. They actually went to Cuba for healthcare
Not Gitmo--that is my understanding.
The Docs of Medical Torture aren't the ones that helped them.
He is talking about the Cuban docs--not the Gitmo docs.
I can feel pretty safe in saying that Michael Moore is NOT an apologist.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. We may have been talking past each other
According to the various write-ups, the "Cuban episode" of the movie has two parts. You seem to be referring to the second part, where Cuban doctors treat the responders. What I was talking about is the preceding sequence where, according to USA Today I quoted from, Moore attempts to show that Gitmo detainess get better health care than the 9/11 responders have been afforded at home.

My point is that (a) the claim of better care is incredible, putting it mildly, and (b) that it implies the reports of torture and abuse have been either overblown or altogether false.

Belittling the abuse going on at Gitmo is unconscionable, especially in the context of medical care, now that we know some medical personnel at the detainee camps is actually aiding in the torture.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Have you seen the pics from Gitmo?
You can rest easy the torture and abuse is real.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. One can be tortured
and then receive medical care, and then be tortured again. I am not sure how providing medical care would imply that claims of torture and abuse are false.
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DefenseLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
4. Having not seen it either
I can't comment on the film, but my guess would be that the medical facilities at Gitmo are pretty good. That would be too obvious to outsiders if they were all dying of infections and such. Sporadic mental and physical torture on the other hand are more easily hidden. I can totally see people of the Gitmo mentality beating a man half to death and then patching him up to do it again.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. Psychologists and Physicians Involved in Torture at Guantanamo
Here's the reference I was looking for:



Psychologists and Physicians Involved in Torture at Guantanamo
2006-06-08

Washington - The Pentagon on Tuesday placed new restrictions on how doctors can be involved in interrogations of detainees, but critics deplored any policy that gives medical professionals a role, saying it can lead questioners to use harsher tactics than they would without medical advice.

The military's use of medical professionals in interrogations has drawn fire from human rights groups and medical ethicists. They have charged that doctors have been used unethically at the prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to force-feed detainees on hunger strikes and provide medical advice to help interrogators.

William Winkenwerder Jr., the assistant secretary of Defense for health affairs who approved the new policy, said it was written to ensure that healthcare professionals play an appropriate role. The policy attempts to draw a clear distinction between medical personnel who care for the health of detainees and mental health professionals, called "behavioral science consultants," who assist interrogators.

Winkenwerder, in a conference call with reporters, said the "consultants" did not take part in interrogations. They make psychological assessments of prisoners, he said, but are not allowed to shape interrogations with their knowledge of a subject's phobias or medical vulnerabilities.

Leonard S. Rubenstein, executive director of Physicians for Human Rights, said the military should prohibit psychologists or doctors from aiding in the questioning of detainees. "They are using their professional knowledge to hurt people," he said. "The bottom line is health professionals should not be involved in interrogations."

(snip)

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/060706E.shtml

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. LOL! Truthout! ROFLMAO!!!!
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. A Los Angeles Times reprint, actually
and you might also try The Guardian and TIME I quoted from before. But you just go on LOL-ing about doctors aiding in torture, I hear it does wonders for one's self esteem.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. I was quite obviously laughing at Truthout. Oooh - you probably *work* for them....
.... which would explain your mere passing familiarity with the truth.

Have 24 business hours passed yet, by the way?
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. What 24 hours? You lost me there.
Never mind though, there's no need to continue this. Keep laughing.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
9. No. I don't think so. He's making a VALID POINT that HOPEFULLY will sink into some thick skulls of
citizens who aren't paying attention. After this movie, I suspect there's going to be a BUNCH of royally pissed off UN-INSURED (because they can't afford it) people in this country.:)
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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. Having not seen the new Harry Potter movie, I fear the phrase "mudblood" will insult muggles who are
already oppressed by their lack of magical abilities, but maybe I should wait to see the movie before criticizing it.

I think that your initial instinct to withhold comment until you see the movie is a good instinct which you should not have ignored.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. If everyone can heap praise on it
without having seen it, I guess I can post if I find something objectionable, as reported in the press by people apparently familiar with the movie.

Fox calls it "brilliant", and I wonder if it might have anything to do with this:

Fox: Moore's 'Sicko is Brilliant

In a key moment in the film, Moore took a group of patients by boat to the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba because of its outstanding medical care. When they couldn't get into the U.S. naval base, Moore proceeded onto Havana where the patients were treated well and cheaply.

http://www.drudge.com/news/94536/fox-moores-sicko-brilliant

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Czolgosz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. One can praise the idea of a movie raising questions about a broken healthcare system without seeing
it because you are praising the idea.

It is difficult to praise or criticize how a movie treats a specific issue in a specific scene without seeing the movie.

In the same sense, it doesn't require seeing the new Harry Potter movie to praise the fact that the series of books and movies has resulted in a rise in pre-teen literacy. It would be difficult to praise or criticize whether the movie's treatment of a specific subject was insensitive or appropriate without actually seeing the movie.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. He took the 9/11 responders to CUBA for CUBAN health care,
NOT to Guatanemo.
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Why is that hard to assimilate?
I've said it 3 times now...
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Oh I guess you have
and I said it once so that makes 4.

Wait, lemme get my calculator to be sure I am right. :rofl:
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Why is it so hard to read?
Edited on Mon May-21-07 06:04 PM by marekjed
the quote from USA TOday? Here it goes again:


In the film, Moore takes them to Cuba and tries to get them treated at the U.S. base at Guantanamo Bay — where, he contends, terror suspects were getting better medical care than the heroes of 9/11.


ed: So again, this is not about the Cuban doctors (Cuban citizens under the Castro regime), okay?
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Your "concern" is noted
He took them to Gitmo and TRIED to get them treatment. Failing at getting CIVILIANS access to the MILITARY base, he went to Cuban physicians (some of the best trained in the world).
Terror suspects (again it needs to be reiterated that MANY have not been charged) have full access to MILITARY doctors. It doesn't mean they get use of them for trivial things like runny noses, sinus infections, headaches...but basically they keep them alive so that we don't end up with too many bodies buried in the backyard.
They get state of the art treatment for burns, broken bones, sexual abuse...all inflicted by US.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. well for some it is enough that Mike Moore made it.. plain and simple minded, no other reason needed
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. While for others, Moore can do no wrong,
and no criticism is permitted, because - just because. I get that treatment from Hillary fans, too.

You probably fit my description as well as I fit yours. Please avoid ad-hominem generalisations (and stay true to your .sig :)

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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #36
54. uh.?? i said.."Some"..not you, tho i suspected you, i did not say or mean you, but you removed all
Edited on Tue May-22-07 04:21 AM by sam sarrha
doubt with your own ad-hominem attack on me.. your reply removed all my doubt of your entensions..

this is it in a nut shell, mike knows how to get attention, he is putting his money where his mouth is, he is DOING SOMETHING.. and achieving A LOT..

our soldiers are being SCREWED.. MURDERED by a Fascist wet brain alcoholic drug addict psychopathic pResident who is using them as mercenaries and thugs to perpetrate an illegal war started with lies to steal oil contracts in iraq. he then not only turns his back on them but has deliberately set up a sham operation to downgrade the injuries of our soldiers so they can not get health care,

YOU SHOULD BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE WAY OUR FASCIST GOVERNMENT IS TREATING OUR SOLDIERS AND OUR CITIZENS THAN WHAT YOU THINK MIKE 'MAY' BE DOING..

until them i will suspect that you are a at best uninformed... you cant invalidate all criticism with an incomplete Apriori posit before the fact... or to paraphrase, ...'i dont know what the hell I'm talking about but i think the Republicans are right about mike more hurting our troops'

way more harm is being done by an insidious cabal of the insane inside the white house, we have a blazing fire of corruption dismantling the constitution and our economy... you should be acting like you hair is on fire about that.. not some fantasy.

edited due to after thought
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. "you cant invalidate all criticism with an incomplete Apriori posit before the fact"
That was very well put. The entire post was, actually...but that one
sentence was extra good and stuff. :applause:
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. That is a separate sequence in the movie.
The Cuban doctors (not at Gitmo) are a separate thing. Please read the passage from USA Today I quoted:

In the film, Moore takes them to Cuba and tries to get them treated at the U.S. base at Guantanamo Bay — where, he contends, terror suspects were getting better medical care than the heroes of 9/11.

If USA Today makes a false representation of the movie content, it would be interesting to know why.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. And they didn't get care there
I guess I don't understand your point. Are you criticizing the fact that the detainees at Gittmo get care?
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. No, only the part that
at Gitmo "terror suspects were getting better medical care than the heroes of 9/11."

I guess where I may be going wrong is that "better care" does not necesarily mean "good care". That's not the impression I'm getting from the reviews, though.

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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Some 9/11 responders have gotten shitty care, or no care.Gitmo pows get slightly more than
totally shitty care. Of course, they are locked up, for yrs, with no redress, but if they get sick they can get minimal treatment to keep them alive. However, now, back to those 9/11 responders that have been lied to and denied treatment. They can walk around, if their lungs work enough to do so, are not imprisoned, but have gotten minimal healthcare.

So, rather than saying "wow, gitmo pows get better care than we do, back here in the USA", think "wow, these 9/11 responders have gotten REALLY shitty care if gitmo is an improvement".

Do you see the difference? He is not comparing what you might have, health insurance through your workplace, but what some of the 9/11 responders have. And yes, some have been denied treatment because their problems "had nothing to do with 9/11 quit faking".
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. I see the difference
You may well be right. Please note though write-ups like this:

Fox: Moore's 'Sicko is Brilliant

In a key moment in the film, Moore took a group of patients by boat to the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba because of its outstanding medical care. When they couldn't get into the U.S. naval base, Moore proceeded onto Havana where the patients were treated well and cheaply.

http://www.drudge.com/news/94536/fox-moores-sicko-brill...


So it doesn't look like Moore shows that the medical care at Gitmo is shitty. Perhaps reviewers are conflating the medical care that the military personnel gets with the medical care afforded to the detainees. If so, they are doing a big disservice to the movie.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Drudge and FOX are crap sites. I don't read them or listen to them.
I don't think DU it the place to argue about accuracy of what Drudge or fox says, or how their listeners might take it.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. There was a highly rec'd thread at DU
just yesterday, I think, about Fox calling Sicko "brilliant", so I guess it was news. I linked to Drudge because it was the one of the top links that Google gave for "fox sicko brilliant" - I just remembered the adjective. The quote is real, Fox did call Sicko brilliant, as you can check for yourself, so any knee-jerk reaction to Drudge is out of order. But here's a more palatable reference for you:

Fox News reviews Moore’s Sicko: “Brilliant and uplifting.“

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/05/20/fox-news-reviews-moores-sicko/
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. I am not on DU all the time, don't read all thread, etc
I haven't seen the movie yet either. However, comparing the health care at the USA base in Gitmo for "enemy combatants" "detainees" "pows" "etc" with what we common people in the USA can get is fine with me. I do not think that he makes the comparison that overall lifestyles of the gitmos are better than we "free" people. Most people in prison have better health care available than we civilians do.

If you want to think that this means MM or UP think that being in gitmo is a piece of cake, I think you are worrying unduly. I do not see this as MM saying Gitmoites are peachy keen with 3 types fruit, but simply comparing health care availability and yes, it is appalling that we normal everyday people, that the 9/11 responders, do NOT have as decent health care as prisoners.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. "Brilliant and Uplifting" - Fox News
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. my youngster loved fox news back in late 2001 "the happy news"
now youngster has joined the rest of us sneerers.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. I really need to see the movie
before I have many conversations about it.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
24. I took Moore's comment to mean Gitmo prisoners were getting
any care at all, which prisoners in any facility will get, even a minimal level, and which is more than the average American can get without paying a lot of money.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. exactly. Minimal is better than nothing.
Has nothing to do with quality of life for prisoners or non-prisoners.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
29. Ahhh...concern.
Where would politics be without THAT opening?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. You make it sound like a bad thing.
:rofl:
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Some people say it is.
;)
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LBJDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
32. No; he is not
Giving the impression that GITMO prisoners are well-treated, if Moore really does do this, is worth it because it'll make the film easier to market to right-wing audiences. It can only expand Moore's audience. Already, Michael Moore fans are generally appalled at the so-called health care system of the US. What's the point of simply preaching to the choir? If Michael Moore can help reverse what Reagan started (the idea that corporations are more trustworthy than the government), then I think he has the moral right to risk giving off the impression that GITMO prisoners are taking it easy.

In any case, it's entirely reasonable to assume that, as far as medical care goes in case of illness, the prisoners at Guantanamo have it better than I and millions of Americans do. Hell, they're not even allowed to starve themselves; you think those in charge are going to let them get sick?
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johnnydrama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. gitmo
The reason that Moore tried to take the 9/11 workers to Gitmo was because the US GOVERNMENT was telling us that the detainees at Gitmo were receiving great healthcare.

He saw this item on the news, or read about it, and decided to, in Michael Moore fashion, see if it was true that terror suspects got better healthcare then 9/11 workers.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. Thank you,
That makes sense. You keep seeing it repeated in the reviews though.
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
39. Who is going to be offended by this?
I can see your point, but do you really consider MM to be that callous?

His point is, that even the most basic health care given by torturers is better than the treatment received by the "heroes of 9/11"

It certainly didn't cross my mind that MM was doing anything other than make that good point.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
43. "After the screening, several hard-nosed U.S. critics and journalists admitted
to crying during the film."
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
44. "Comedy, Poignancy and Outrage" -- Variety
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
46. Sicko - "Very Strong and Very Honest" - Boston Globe
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Jack Sprat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
47. I doubt Moore would put a bright face
on torture, by making a comparison with US healthcare and Cuban healthcare.
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moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. You are probably right
Like I said, I'll be relieved and happy to retract once I've seen the movie. (Here in Europe, I may yet see it before you guys :)

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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-21-07 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
48. You are wrong.
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Habibi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-22-07 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
55. You've been remarkably patient and courteous
on this thread, despite your point whizzing over multiple heads. Kudos.

As to your question: we won't really know the effect of the movie until it's released. Let's hope it won't fuel any defenses of Gitmo.

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