When it comes to discussions here, why do some seem...

to quickly assume the worst about an OP and the intent of an OP without even asking follow up questions?

Folks, it's called "discussion" and the benefits of discussion here at DU include that other people with other ideas and experiences often add layers to the discussion that increases the depth and breadth of the discussion.

The diversity of ideas and experiences of people here are amazing, but too often other members fall into the traps of name calling, knee jerk assumptions and incorrect interpretations of OPs and refuse to even ask simple follow up questions like, "did you mean "this" because that is what your comment means to me." No, instead it's more along the lines of, "your point is idiotic", "you sound just like them", or some sort of other insult or wild misrepresentation of the OP.

I thought we were supposed to be the thinkers and humane people.

And sometimes a question is just a question.....

But I guess the fact that the people who run this site keep bringing up issues like this mean there aren't any problems, eh?

Every single one of us.

He isn't lecturing us. He's pointing out how counter-productive the knee-jerk comments are.

I think he's right on.

Rather it is a lecture telling others how to post. Perhaps better suited to the lounge.

You proved the point to a tee.

apparently this was just a venting thread after a locked thread. That happens ...

Yes, I just had a thread locked, but this issue has bothered me for some time.

The Democratic Party is a diverse group and coming here for some time it almost appears as if there is an unknown litmus test for Democratic Purity for some.

Not only that, people continue to throw insults, invectives and just not observe good rules of courteous debate/discuss. And oddly, I think this is easily proven by what the DU administrators have been discussing for some time.

with venting. The attitude however ....

it was not about ONE locked thread, but a culmination of what has happened here at DU for some time.

they have a forum for that. What is the point of lecturing everyone else about it? Maybe look up the term "net nanny".

:)

they'd argue with Ghandi.

I think too many loungers have escaped? <grin> <<<< see the grin?

Actually, taking anything here as personal is a mistake.

Were just talking. KnR

In fact, one should probably reconsider engaging in such treatment of people.

because you can't slap the shit out of them like you could IRL?

sometimes people need to get the shit slapped out of them.

if you were in front of me right now . . .

Your pimp hand gets rusty? You don't use it enough then!

let their brain catch up to their typing.

This place is doing much better than I feared it would.

This place is candyland compared to after the primaries.

a statement or opinion adding in the views or opinions you rationalize to make such a statement plausible. Also it would be highly 'inefficient' to do back and forth with every topic where many, many posters often leave out explanations of what they mean or leave them 'open' to interpretation either by design or simply feeling it isn't necessary.

When people lash out at the 'worst' I can only guess the issue is a hot button where the person lashing out 'sees' something that doesn't fit what they think 'should' be and so responds accordingly.

Sometimes this place is the most intolerant website I've ever visited. Other times it's one big group hug.

It's ALWAYS entertaining though, and that's why I keep coming back day after day.

sly benefit from a MUCH more Socratic approach.

Thank you for posting on this profoundly fundamental issue.

Ever think of that?

Too many times there will be OPs where in follow up comments great depth is added by others with different experiences and ideas, and while often the OP will have the chance of modifying or adapting the conversation, people still cling on to their own interpretation of the OP without giving people a chance to say, "hm, I never thought of it that way" or "yes, you are right, that is not a good idea."

is to ignore the aggressive tone and comment only on substance. If the poster doesn't get the hint then I don't bother to respond, finding there is no reason to feed the fire, or to have any interest in their thoughts (if they have any).

- a seemingly harmless "question", always be observant of questions
- using RW terms such as "concern" or Obamacare or FEAR
- using RW links or esoteric links - I have been to FR and they don't require facts, 'I heard that.....'
- bad spelling (a gimme)
- RW "talking points"(a gimme)
- newer members (be careful....they may indeed be new)
- look at the avatar, usual neutral (a sports logo)
- using the term WHO? (we all know who Rachel is)
- don't know who * is.
- seemingly looking for info like 'hey guys'....like I am one of you
- trying to flame by saying things like, 'I am so sick of President Obama' or 'I am not voting...staying home'
- Extra-long OPs
- Rasmussen only for polls
- I accidently tuned into Rush,Beck et.al - 'He makes sense..'
- no star - important, too cheap

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9093543

I've started a couple discussions on DU and gotten killed on them. It puzzles me. There have been several forums that I have left because they were taken over by right wingnuts who post idiotic, distracting and off-topic posts simply to disrupt and dismantle. After awhile I get weary of no longer having intelligent people to converse with and I move on.

I really like DU and the intelligence I find here. We have to stand together and share ideas, its how Progressives.... Progress.

Peace Luv and Health,
Annette

expressed a point the way YOU (not you personally) would have, isn't PROGRESS.

In discussion we learn and if a person is being attacked, they won't make the mistake of expressing their opinion unless they fall in line with YOUR opinion.

When I first started getting interested in politics, I had so many questions and they always started out with "WHY?". Today, if I were to ask those same questions, I would get tombstoned.

I like discussions that enlighten those who aren't as politically "intelligent" but want to know "WHY?" I always have so much more to learn and think about.

I totally agree with you benlurkin, there is so much to learn and one thing that stands out to me, I guess because I'm a bit "feelings" kind of person, is that being respectful seems to have been thrown out the window when there is disagreement. And that goes from Congress all the way down to an internet forum to a person-to-person discussion.

It's fine to be passionate about your beliefs, that is what spurs growth and movement toward our future, but how many people get shut down when they are met with fury and disrespect?

Or funnily.

I like that

:)

I wish we could state that there are no asshole liberals, but that's just not the case.

I joined DU in 2004. My post count was still well under 1000 when the swift boaters started questioning John Kerry's military service. I'd heard that military records were public information. When I innocently asked how one could access this information, it took less than a minute for three people to respond, lambasting me as a troll. I wanted to send the info to my right wing mother & was surprised that it was assumed that I was a troll just for asking about it.

I used to respond to rudeness like that, but I discovered it's not worth the time. They are not interested in discussion. They just want to be combative & get in the last word.

it has happened to me and I see it happen to others once in awhile... it makes me sad to think that we aren't anymore empathetic or intelligent sometimes than the people we claim are wanting to take this country in the wrong direction

My experience, however, is that if you ask a question trying to clear up their meaning, they accuse you of putting words in their mouth.

to the firgures and idea.

over time I've noticed that people here quickly jump to the worst of interpretations of MANY postings (and this is probably related to mainly the difficulty in communication by this type of format).

OK. Thanks.

That one just helped me along to finally post an OP about it....

Not that it makes it right, but I think I can honestly say I've never hurled an invective or other insult without being insulted first. Nor have I resorted to calling any other DU member any of the names such as "freeper" or "troll."

Now, after being called stupid or a moron or whatever, then the gloves come off. But too many resort to discourtesy from the start and it grows tiresome.

And I'm sure there's not a single person here
who has insulted another person without getting
insulted first, so join the club.

but a culmination.

Here's the thing - all of us do not think the same way and some may have different opinions on a particular topic that others here do not. And when people express these differences, it should be with courtesy and respect. Lately, that has been missing a great deal from DU.

Especially when people just jump to wild assumptions from the get go.

I think there is a certain mindset among many on DU. A mindset that is always on guard, ready to be offended. Once they are offended, you see, they get to release some hostility against the person who offended them all while feeling righteously superior.

You can see how that works psychologically, and part of that is part of the liberal ideology. For example, if somebody uses the n-word, then we all get to pick up stones and let him/her have it. Then there is a growing list of things that people are not supposed to say, or even think, like tar baby, or negro, or even black. But along with a list of terms that no decent person is supposed to use, there is an ever growing list of ideas that no decent person is supposed to believe. That list generally seems to grow to the point where "no decent person believes in anything that I disagree with" because if they do, they are stupid, ignorant, or evil. The more of those people that I can find and call out, the more I feel good, well-informed and smart. But there is also the gang mentality, in that people who doubt things-that-all-good-people-are-supposed-to-believe are clearly not part of our gang and should be pounded on just like members of the rival gang.

Discuss, provide links, but please don't resort to name calling.

Save the name calling for Boner, Cantor, McConnell - not each other.

Flamebait abounds there, not a day goes by without haters posting just to rile folks up.

and the weakness of their arguments. It is really a personal attack, anyway.

because a minority of that constituency voted Republican is stupid and hateful, and you deserved the negative reaction you got for saying it.

1. I asked a strategic political question.
2. In the thread I said it was not intended to be seen or taken as punishment.
3. Even though I did not get to it, another question would be to ask Gates, "why is HE making this statement now?" Recall, he is a life-long Republican. Does he have interests for the lame duck Congress to do such a thing?
4. And as the article regarding the Exit Polling, where this number came from, it suggested the vote was so high because of discontent on gay issues.


So, the question was asked for political discussion and information.

This thread IS about the locked thread, after all?

:evilgrin:

This type of behavior has been going on for some time and quite strongly the past year or so. Things like this have become such a problem that the administrators have discussed it and even drafted a survey about things like this.

But too often do people take one sentence or so of someone's OP and extrapolate the OP's entire thoughts or complete intent on not only that issue, but the OP's entire life.

But this OP has been developing in my mind for some time and today's events just helped it along. I don't know how else to make it any clearer than that.

if I didn't understand. Now I understand: this thread
isn't because of the locked thread exactly, but the
locked thread was a culmination of things, and if it
hadn't been for the locked thread, then you wouldn't
have started this thread now, but maybe later, when some
other culmination culminated. And also, you never insult
anybody unless they insult you first. Do I understand now,
ever.

Many people made many civil points to you, and you did not even respond to them. So to come here whining that you were not respected is pathetic. It was drive by flame bait and in my opinion, for the sake of discussion, a pile of bigoted horse shit.

the thread was locked....and I didn't have much of a chance. Sorry, but DU is not hardwired to my brain so I can instant respond to each reply. It is Sunday and I did have other things to do.

But if I would have been able to add more, the point I did not think of was of the 2/3rd number of those that voted Dem/other.

But again, thanks for proving my point about discourtesy DU people.

thread, and got jumped on. The fact is you posted, got many civil replies, you were not called names, the comments were all on topic and you are claiming otherwise. You posted it, it was up for half an hour after I commented. But I'd not even be mentioning that if you were not, in this thread, claiming things about the other thread that are not true. You did post and leave. No one called you names. You say you got no 'follow up questions' and you got many of them. You are presenting both what you did in that thread and what others posted incorrectly.
Asking a question like that and walking out of the room is the very description of discourtesy. That in itself made your thread seem more like bait than discussion.

I'm sorry for having a life. Where I can't start a discussion, then have something that pulls me away from it and try to come back to it later. Oh, forget it if one of my children needs something or something else happens. Guess maybe even I should have just crapped right there in my chair.

As I've pointed out - THIS OP is not singularly about that OP. It is about a culmination of things and how too often people ascribe the worst intent of a person's OP without taking into consideration the worst may not have been intended or that the diverse opinions here might lead someone to go, "oh, that is a point I never thought of."

That's the one who isn't being defensive and snarky.

or at least ask a question...but I guess the below statement is not "snarky".....

"Many people made many civil points to you, and you did not even respond to them. So to come here whining that you were not respected is pathetic. It was drive by flame bait and in my opinion, for the sake of discussion, a pile of bigoted horse shit."


Guess if I'd typed that you'd be claiming something else...

and e;re "concerned" about your vindictive suggestion of how Dems shoud treat said group.

It's easy to automatically assume the worst about anonymous people, and it's too easy to score ready points off of said anonymous people.

I never understood why it seems to be so difficult to have "conversations" in this particular medium. Eventually they all seem to just flame out.

here. An Op that may create some type of thought may or may not get locked when the conversation goes from making a valid point to name-calling ignorance. And I admit I have called out some ugly names. Never usually to an OP author. But there are times when I see agitation when there should be none. Which makes me think that some of the heated discussions that take place are not necessarily started by DU members with a passionate point of view.

And yet, in response what you got was pretty kind, directly on topic, many questions in return to you. You did not respond to any of them. I just reread the whole thing. You did not participate in discussion. No one said you were idiotic. You were not called names. You were asked 'follow up questions' and you failed to respond to them. You had lots of time before they locked it. Lots.

until this thread).

What you say is true. I saw nothing but reasoned discussion in that thread and it was not locked due to incivility, it was locked because of the BS statistic that has gotten far too much play here.

and it was locked....and I'm not suggesting it should not have been locked. For one thing, I did not know the 1/3 number was in high dispute or possibly "viral" (however, a google search brought up a number of mentions).

And after making the OP, as I mentioned up above, a different DU member brought up the larger number of other voters. I had not thought about that aspect of it.

Other than that, guess we shouldn't talk about political strategy at all here, huh? Or even ask if maybe Gates has some sort of ulterior motive.

Now, you might sit at your PC on a Sunday and monitor each of your replies every second, but sorry, I have a life.

"Now, you might sit at your PC on a Sunday and monitor each of your replies every second, but sorry, I have a life."

That's what you posted in reply to Bluenorthwest before you edit it--and then wonder why some assume the worst about you.

for an apostrophe....

And my reply was to his continued harping that I obviously refused to reply at the other OP when I offered an explanation why I could not.

In other words, I tossed back as good as the poster gave.

or at least ask a question...but I guess the below statement is not "snarky".....

"Many people made many civil points to you, and you did not even respond to them. So to come here whining that you were not respected is pathetic. It was drive by flame bait and in my opinion, for the sake of discussion, a pile of bigoted horse shit."


Guess if I'd typed that you'd be claiming something else...

fantasia of my personal life as well. Hyperbolic, sarcastic, and claiming to be oh, so busy on a Sunday, unlike me, while you are also here, and found the time to post an OP t then this one about how rude everyone was to you on a thread that you were not even present for, on which no one was rude to you. You claimed no one asked you 'follow up questions' but you were asked many, you simply did not respond to them. As you say, you are an extremely busy man, what with all those OPs to make and all.

Sometimes people will jump all over somebody else, and when the person who got jumped on tries to explain what he or she really meant, the jumper will TELL the jumpee what he or really meant.

Because, you know, the jumper is a mind reader and knows better than his victim what he or she really meant.

Never mind that the person being jumped on might have a problem expressing him or herself.

And people who do this call themselves "Liberals". "Progressives".

:eyes:

ugh

Didn't Admin already address this nasty passive aggressive bit of saying "some people" seem, think, say...

:shrug:

did you even think about the fact that if you didn;t "mean it as punishment" what you seemed to be suggesting was exactly that? There is no other way to look at it.

It was the start of a discussion. That's all.

In the OP I stated I believe there should be no DADT. I have military experience and think ALL qualified Americans should be able to join the military.

At the time I thought it was something to discuss. I think if you look at this controversial topic (of a number of people voting against their self-interest) there are all sorts of political puzzle pieces to examine.

For one, does it create an opportunity for the Republicans after they are sworn in? Or another, could it be used to show the further intolerance of the Republican Party? What will happen if the Dems do repeal it and later the Rethugs try to bring it back and force an Obama veto?

It was just a political question meant to start a discussion.

so... you were kinda shot down there for suggesting the punishment. perhaps if you had stuck around, you could have added more to it, or admittted you were suggesting doing exactly what you claim didn;t want to suggest. but you dropped a stink bomb and left. most people who are interested in discussing actually stay to do it.
i think that considering since your stats were iffy and your suggestion untenable, you were treated very fairly. were you hoping someone would appear magically to support your premise that we might throw gays under the bus? is that what you needed to happen?

I stuck around for a bit and then left to do other things. In the meantime, the OP was locked. There is nothing I can do about not being able to monitor DU when I'm not on the PC.

Now, I guess all I can do is offer that the intent of the OP was not about punishing people; it was about discussing political strategy and what tactics to use on a multi-faceted aspect, especially if there are news stories about a number of people voting against their self-interest (now, a simple Google search reveals many credible news organizations had information on this "story" - I did not know that since the reporting there has been information about the validity of these numbers).

And as I have all ready repeatedly typed, I did not think of the larger majority until it was pointed out.

consider was in actuality punishing people and denying them equal rights. Wow. That was quite inconsiderate of you.

That aspect of the argument did escape me because I was thinking of the other parts, but thanks for making such a grand subjective observation about what a bastard I am. Appreciate it.

Have a nice day. Must be nice to be a perfect person.

they forget that even a piece of paper, as thin as it is, has TWO sides.


And to illustrate further, a flower arrangement, viewed at five different angles by five different people, is going to have five different "looks".

or cyber bully is a kick... Some just like to make waves... Some like to discuss...

If you're careful, you can even get away with beating that horse...





:evilgrin:

On top of that, I guess this sort of thing has not been an issue here because otherwise I guess maybe the owners of DU might be concerned with attitudes and behavior and conduct a survey or something like that....oh, wait, they have.


You know, the difference between you two and myself, is that I take a DU member's word for when they make a claim. I've explained the origins of this post and for you two DU members to continue on like you have is discourteous.

Thank you....

Got it. ;-)

Peace, Hard.

bye, bye......

The entire subthread zings to the heart of this thread & your locked thread...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9506037&mesg_id=9507469

:)

or they don't read the entire post before going off

Just kidding. ;)

I agree.

have been guilty of falling into that way of thinking and responding here. Almost all of the time, it was because I had been attacked first, then of course I would lash out. But that still is nothing to be proud of.

Thank you for holding a mirror up to my behavior. What you just wrote is something I will be more mindful of.

have been guilty of falling into that way of thinking and responding here. Almost all of the time, it was because I had been attacked first, then of course I would lash out. But that still is nothing to be proud of.

Thank you for holding a mirror up to my behavior. What you just wrote is something I will be more mindful of.

The way to avoid getting entangled with them is to always be polite and abide by the posting rules, particularly the part about hitting the Alert button when someone is off track.

K&R

:kick: