Why I find the term pink tutu so damn offensive

There are alot of stereotypes about gays. We are called flighty, into the arts, often too into shallowness and prettyness. We aren't into sports. We are into musicals. And on and on. To be honest. Like all gays I meet some of the stereotypes and don't meet others. But the one stereotype that really aggrivates me is that we lack courage. I don't know of any openly gay person who lacks courage. Try being an openly gay kid in an east Texas high school. How about a gay soldier under DADT. Maybe you could try being an openly gay cop, or school teacher. The fact is it takes courage to be us. If we are effiminate, aka pink tutu, it takes even more courage. When you call people who you percieve as cowards, pink tutu, you are saying, no matter how much you deny it, that gays, and especially effimate gays, are cowards. We have a lot of faults, cowardice, isn't one.

People will use those they feel are effective without any consideration for this, and it's sad to see it from Moore, from DU, etc.

:)

make a disparaging remark about women or minorities?

I'd be very disappointed (and surprised) if this were the case.:-(

"Take off the pink tutu," he said on Maher. Meaning, I guess, fight back. There are probably a dozen other ways he could have made his point without this stereotype.

I like MM...This is a rare gaffe.

Some people want to be bigots, but they don't want to be called out on it. No one wants to be the bad guy, but they want to do bad guy things.

The two can certainly go together, but they aren't the same thing. You don't need to call people names that draw their power from sexism/racism/whatever to hold a belief strongly. Bernie Sanders doesn't need to say "pink tutu" to stand up for us, and neither does Moore.

references to anything female. "Life's a bitch", "what a pussy", In the UK men are called "cunts" as a way to demean them. Christ, the latest "man up" put down bugs the hell out of me. I would have never thought "pink tu-tu" was a reference to gays until I saw it here. I thought it was another insult based on femininity.

Pink is a girls color and obviously girls are weak. Almost all slurs used against gay males are sexist too.

because being female is somehow "less than" being a man - therefore being a gay man is to be like a "girl" so that's the insult...)

I finally figured out why men have problem with ballet - it's not the tight pants (look at football and wrestlers), it's the fact that WOMEN are featured. That men - are supporting partners. Oh they get their solos, but the "prima ballerinas" are WOMEN and (some) men can't bear a man to play second fiddle to any woman for any reason. It makes him "less manly" to not be the "dominant one".

Of course real men are never threatened by women, only men who have self-esteem issues.

are typically afraid they will be hit on by every man (which is a rather large and not necessarily logical decision based on their own insecure narcissism), but worse that THEY will be treated the way that they treat women.

It's quite typical for total misogynists to be total homophobes and vice versa, and I think they are very much related as you pointed out, and are based on insecurity among other things.

that the gay community seems to defend itself better than women, even so-called "progressive" women do.

As a long time feminists, I'm disgusted at the number of unthinking gender slurs I often see here from women.;(


Talk about charity beginning at home...duh.

and what is infuriating is that it is a meme created by and used by Democrats, usually the most "progressive" ones. If the GOP did that, we'd be howling.

I discussed it with my son today (25) and asked him, "If someone told you to take off your pink tutu, what do you think they mean?" He said, "It means stop acting like a girl." He elaborated that he knows it's meant to be an insult but it falls flat with him because he doesn't think being equated as female is an insult. But he is firm that the intent behind it when someone says it is, "You are acting girly."

Of course, sexism is so linked with homophobia, specifically homophobia against gay MALES. As Carl Paladino (Teathug failed candidate for Governor, NY) demonstrated for us, lesbians are "awesome". :puke:

There are a lot of stereotypes about women. We are called flighty, often too into shallowness and pettiness. We aren't into sports. We do not argue but nag, or bitch. If we are upset, we are hysterical. Like all women, I meet some of the stereotypes and don't meet others. But the one stereotype that really aggrevates me is that we are lesser than those with xy chromosomes, simply because of our sex.

When you call people you perceive as cowards, pink tutu, you are saying, no matter how you deny it, that women are lesser beings and that men called this are lesser beings.

I am not mocking you dsc, but you stated it so well I wanted to use your format. Calling someone a woman as an insult must go.

Just this weekend I overheard a guy call his friend a "pussy" as an insult. I know darned well what it really means. He was demeaning him by calling him a woman as if that was something to be ashamed of. I agree. It must go!

especially in the United States.

Anyone attributing cowardice to any gay or lesbian, needs their fucking head examined.

I am sometimes still astonished at the outright bigotry shown by some people right here in the U.S. I would think we would be well beyond that by now.

I heard my friend, who was viisting, say, "There goes a really, really tough guy."

Why? "In this neighbourhood, a black guy wearing a white satin poet shirt like yours, skin tight peg-leg black trews, over the knee black leather boots, scarf and a gold hoop earring? He is not only tough, but courageous to boot."

(by the way, since I wore a pink tutu often during the first 21 years of my life, it's not something I think of in connection with homosexuals.)

Pretty sure he's not a bigot.

Some people reach into a grab-bag of insults because they equate doing so with toughness. Every once in a while they will come up with one that derives all its power from sexism or other forms of bigotry. Their intention isn't to be bigoted, but it's fairly silly to argue that "pink tutu" has no sexist or homophobic elements to it as an insult.

The fact that some like the people that use it, doesn't make it right or reasonable.

In addition, in many cases, they are talking heads, bloggers, or pundits who do not have the responsibility of governing. They don't have to make any compromises - but elected officials have to do so - or they would get nothing.

Homophobia is so ingrained into our culture people, even the well meaning, still use hateful words and don't realize it.

there are many "progressive" men" who are unconcious (and uncaring?)about THAT.

Many progressives are sexist and homophobic.

By the way why the quoats around homophobia? Usually that's done to imply it's not real...

made by someone who was still sleepy.

Sometimes people just don't think...

What am I?
K&R for making a good point.

a man can be called is anything to do with a girl/woman. I guess that's why it bothers you.

I wish I could dress up as a man....I could get a job and be treated with more respect than I am today.

I may just get a beard and baseball cap to wear in the car.

Here you go. One of the bravest men I've ever read about. A hero:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Bingham

and i don't know how you are going to combat the stereotype that being manly equals being tough and strong --i would argue it's much more effective to fight discrimination head-on rather than arguing about something like this.

my two cents.

We're not in some either/or dilemma here.

:shrug:

"and i don't know how you are going to combat the stereotype that being intelligent and hard-working equals being white --i would argue it's much more effective to fight discrimination head-on rather than arguing about something like this.

"my two cents."

:shrug:

their lives are not ending in a vacuum - words do have power and meaning.

basically... pathetical, at every turn, since birth, are you?

maybe you will never understand why it matters

i was actually raised in a time i thought i was less than man. i didnt have a problem with it. was just a known fact. a reality. you know.... you had a girl? ah, sorry. when are you going to try again? until a young adult and i was saying wtf???

that type of bigotry from the very beginning, you are less. conditioning in a society as a whole. words matter. i see it now, with raising my boys.

maybe that is what it takes to understand why, this may be relevant

Words matter. A lot. When's the last time you heard the n-word in reasonably polite company?

My parents absolutely forbade me to use it even while my uncle and some of my friends' parents freely used it (and my dad objected strenuously to his brother when he used it). Soon, my uncle did not use it in our presence.

Futility? REALLY?

that's not quite the same as getting people to stop saying the n-word.

but you can focus on that --more power to you.

i'd just prefer both women and GLBT community to be thought of as equals and starting with equality under the law.

ending the denigration of gay men and of all women is nothing to sniff dismissively at.

but even they didn't use the n word. They may as well have given their attitudes but even they knew that was a bridge too far for polite company.

for it to flourish where you are conceding that it is acceptable.

Anyplace you remain silent, where you accept that examples of prejudice aren't worth fighting, that is where bigots will concentrate their efforts, because you gave them permission.

And then you become THEIR ally instead of ours because they will recruit you to shut us down when we try to fight them. They will get you to tell us over and over that we "are being petty." We "are being hostile." We "are offending potential allies." Because you will already be on record saying that in this one area prejudice isn't important enough to fight and shouldn't be fought.

I was offended by their anger at Michael Moore. That is because I learned the expression "pink tutu" on this board. People here used to say it about Daschle all the time. But now all of a sudden we can't use the expression? Double standard.

BTW, your post is very well written. I agree with you about how much strength and courage it takes to be openly gay. But who says that people in the arts are weak? Ballet dancers, male and female, are strong athletes. And it takes strength and courage to be a woman in today's world. Men aren't the only strong ones.

There are so many types of strength and courage that macho men don't have a monopoly on anything.

all forms.

"girly" as an insult: it simply stinks

When she sees Moore, it won't be the tutu she'll be wearing...

and to be willing to care enough to change your habits.

:)

I still learned it here, and saw it here first. And the people who insulted me for my reply to this thread have their own problems with stereotypes and anger. They need to get a grip.

I am not the devil for trying to track down the origins of a slur, for making observations about it and for noticing that some of my fellow DUers were very free about using the term.

I also remember a time here when quite a few here were calling Ann Coulter a c*nt. I am glad that word was banned from the discourse here. Annie is pretty much irrelevant these days. But calling her a sexist name was never right.

A phrase that Bill Maher used in the same episode.

Too bad Bartcop's fame hasn't caught up with his influence.

I must say that anger over pink tutus might be better aimed at the spineless lick spittle democrats that the phrase was aimed at.

;) Either way, point taken.

Here's part of what troubles Moore, I think.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_tax_cuts

Note how the headline makes R's appear "tough" ie. strong and principled? That's what we need. Strength.

And fuck anyone else who says otherwise.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SqhhJb_P3Kk/SnCpjLKLTfI/AAAAAAAAIRs/ODR9X7AyqLw/s400/ballerina+feet.png

how I remember those days, my hips are still reminding me.

Ballerinas are serious, serious athletes.

Most professional sports players don't work that hard. :P

Insulting someone by calling them gay is bad, yes, but also insulting someone by calling them a woman is disgustingly sexist.

so he said..anyway, he claimed that the team used to practice ballet as part of their conditioning.

coaches insisted that they take ballet to make them better players.

Ballet ain'f for sissies. (oops! I should not have used that word. Let me rephrase.) Ballet ain't for 'fraidy cats. (Or is that being insulting to cats?)

but it's Bill Maher. if i focused on that part of what he's saying i'd be totally missing the point.

Yes, his message can easily get lost because of all that prejudice he throws around.

It's a damned shame that only people who are deaf to the sexism and homophobia can really appreciate the political wisdom he often has to offer.

It would be nice if he could offer that little bit of wisdom without being so offensive to women and the LGBTQI community. It would be nice if he didn't have to share bits of that wisdom inside of jokes targeting and humiliating us for a quick laugh. x(

It shows that he seriously thinks of "normal people" as "white men with money," like himself, and everyone else is a sub-group or extra little side-community of "other people" that are tagging along with white men for the ride.

He calls himself libertarian. He should have stopped at liberteen. Get a buzz in the grotto then shut up.

I like his wit, but his shitty disregard toward everyone but his own kind -- "white men with money" -- keeps me out of his fan club.

and what he said was take off the pink tutu and put on the boxing gloves.

which i think can mean stop dancing around and start fighting --which is not a stereotype.

but ymmv.

not about any one comment in particular, and certainly not about the pink tutu comment specifically.

Though, regarding that Pink Tutu comment, I would say that it means far more than stop dancing and start fighting. It says, or at least implies, "stop dancing around like a weak effeminate girly man and start fighting like a real man."

There sure as hell is a lot of stereotyping going on in that.

The choice of Tutu clearing implies not just a dancer, but the most effeminate possible type of dancer. You're not moshing. You're not break dancing. or any other dance that might be tough or athletic. You're not on a dance floor in a club. You're not doing ball-room dancing, or salsa, or merengue, or any other kind of dance that might be sexy. You're not even doing disco, or any of the fad dances that each had their own song in the 50s, (everybody do the mashed potato, do the fish, blah blah blah...) By choosing the tutu he's saying that the dancer is doing Ballet, that graceful dance that emphasizes the appearance of grace above all else. Every movement is supposed to appear smooth and almost effortless. The men are in leotards and WOMEN IN TUTUs.

So this is definitely a slur. Appearing almost effortless could very easily mean exerting no effort. Grace pretty much the opposite of rugged and tough. Saying someone is dressed like a women is classic a sexist slur used to say that someone acts like a woman, is weak either physically or mentally, is all appearance with no substance, or is not very tough.

In Boxing, you still sort of dance around a lot. But it is called "foot work" and it is an important part of defending yourself and getting yourself in position to strike effectively. It's a masculine and acceptable kind of dancing because it's part of a fighting sport. You certainly don't do it in a tutu.

Boxers are graceful too, but their grace is in combat. Their grace is secondary to wining. The grace is secondary to winning. Where in Ballet the grace is the primary purpose. That certainly isn't lost in this comparison. The implication is that one should stop paying attention to how you look (like a woman) and pay attention to winning (like a man).

So, you can try to re-interpret the statement to take out the stereotypes. But the fact remains that it was delivered in a way that was loaded with stereotypes and slurs. It was both sexist and homophobic.

I would have expected better from Michael Moore, but I guess I expected too much. I didn't realize he was prone to using slurs to make his points. Now I know.

But I already knew that Bill Maher would not comment on the slurs, or even notice them, because he frequently uses them himself. His comedy is loaded with sexist and homophobic slurs on a regular basis. That was the point of my post. I'm sorry you didn't get that point.

...my friend was raped. That really turned me around completely, only after that did I come to learn how pervasive the sexism and misogyny is.

I suspect Maher is like the Earlier me.

about what happened. :(

The change in the way you post was an interesting evolution to watch. You changed very dramatically, pretty quickly. Your depth on issues involving women and sexism and prejudice has been interesting to see.

I'm sorry for the cause of it. Your growth has been appreciated. :hug:

:hug:

the image i got was a frilly girl--he was acting like a girl.

which i found offensive as hell. (being a girl and all i guess)

like "you fight like a lttle girl"
I never take it to mean "you are acting gay".

Then again I never met a gay coward (you have to be tough to be different in my blue collar city) so perhaps I think differently than your average American.

Feeling a little confused right now, I will pay more attention when I hear that next time. I don't much care for slurs on subgroups or the use of them as insults, next time it won't go over my head quite so easily.

slur, you will be more aware.

interesting

Wow a sexist homophobe, thanks for calling me that!!
I feel the love.

humiliate the male. i KNOW this is not a new concept to you. but evidently it is one you allow to "go over your head" repeatedly. at least you are consistent. at least, you will be a little more aware with gays.

the LAST to be considered...and it sucks.

John Lennon said it: "Women is the Nigger of the World".

I was a very very small little girl, but I could - and did - kick ass on a regular basis. (I used to protect other kids from bullies.)

My niece was a jr olympic karate gold medalist in fighting at 9. She laid out one of her big brothers "friends" with one punch (he was 16 or 17 at the time) who tried to mess with her.

I think I should just stop posting because obviously I will be considered an asshole no matter what I do.
If you knew me you wouldn't hate me tho, believe it or not.

I hang out with pagans and artists and there are few that fit the typical mold, they think the opposite of what you do, but what do they know since few of them are straight males and I obviously have fooled them all.

After the beatings I got from the DLC last night and the names I'm being called here I think it best to step away from this site like permanently so as not to upset so many people.

peace

:hug: from a fellow long time DU'er too.

Cheers
SAndy

as in many anti gay stereotypes.

If one means to describe something (or someone) as weak, then one should use the word "weak." Weakness, like strength, comes in all flavors.

K&R.

...of "feminine" gender roles. hence all the jokes about, say, getting a gay guy to decorate your home.

:applause:

I don't think this is the problem...I understand if people think I'm minimizing it.

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Have a swell day. :hi:

another unrec.

I honestly didn't know that. In fact, up until two days ago I didn't know that the phrase "pink tutu" was a slur. I found it in a locking message from a mod and my first reaction was :wtf:.

Let me say this: As two letters on the LGBTQIAA banner, I say let it become a thing with these throwbacks. Can you imagine how stupid a person would sound calling someone else a "pink tutu"? It immediately exposes a lack of creativity, a lack of intelligence, and a disgusting amount of misogyny all at the same time. Plus, as it is so ridiculous, I see it only as a trigger of laughter directed at the person trying to throw a slur. Let them have their little display of idiocy, and then we can mock them mercilessly for it.

As for the stereotype, take heart: No one really believes that just because you're gay you lack courage, because everyone knows that gay men and women really want to serve in our military. The reason they are not allowed is because macho douchebags are terrified of being hit on by guys. Who lacks the courage there? The one fighting to dodge bullets for a country and a cause they believe in, or the one cowering in their bunk because they got a lusty look from someone of the same sex?

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, at some point, you have to recognize that what you are confronting is sheer, unadulterated stupidity, and the best thing you can do is just laugh at it and walk away.

as though the worst thing can be is to be girly.

long time. I agree.

:kick:

not sure how or when this came to be thought of as anti-gay.

Many here seem to be very OK w/ anti-women comments.

I think rabid misogyny leads ENTIRELY to homophobia...

Homophobia, misogyny, racism - they're all related.

"Dominant culture" (in this country - white) hetero males have enjoyed the most privilege on the planet - and they want to make damn sure it STAYS that way.

girls and women to like "masculine" things, but horrible for boys and men to like "feminine" things. Using "pink tutu", "man up", or any shit like that as insults is sexist and homophobic, whether that's the intent of the speaker or not. We are all responsible for our language choices.

I'm a woman, and I think women, if anyone, could be offended by the comment since (female) ballerinas usually wear tutus. Misogyny pisses me off, but I wasn't offended by Moore's comment at all.

I think Moore's comment was great because it was to the point and not bogged down with political jargon that the average American could give a damn about trying to understand.

Right?

Point made with no offense.

Particularly, the view of many asshole straight men who live in fear of being hit on by a gay man...it stems from how they view women, they do NOT want anyone looking at/thinking of them in the same predatory way that they think of their sexual targets.

interesting.

A lot of it is "moral panic" by wingnuts obsessed with gender roles.

I understand what you're saying. There is SUCH an entrenched thing in our culture about being "MANLY' as a measure of courage and strength (with "manly" defined narrowly as devoid of ANYthing "feminine," also defined narrowly).

"Pink tutu" = "girly" = weak and cowardly.

Ballerinas are athletes with nerves of steel.

So are male dancers, many of whom are gay. These are strong, courageous people.

Yet much of America would ridicule them while considering "manly" a fat sweaty slouch in an armchair, drinking beer and cheering on young, athletic men playing sports, yelling and swearing with great rage about something stupid that rubbed him wrong....

That's the image of "masculine" that = "ballsy, tough, gutsy," etc. in our culture and like you, I can't stand it.

(I also think all of this was in HUGE play during the 2004 presidential election, by the way.)

Even the fairly enlightened among us can miss the more subtle forms of bigotry. I think this can account for why we, sometimes, see people who really are big supporters of equal rights use language like this.

Gay slurs and misogyny permeate our culture and our language and many people who are not misogynists and bigots say these things without stopping to think or analyse the roots of the phrase. Raising awareness is the key.

Therefore, K&R

They did the same with Meg Whitman and O'Donell's comments (grudging credit for consistency, I suppose). That they don't understand the anger shows how prevalent the oppression is.

Sigh--ever onward.

what gay men and women really should be more concerned about . Gosh the straight dudes think they know best again, and they are not afraid to tell us.

people use such language without realizing it.

Very well said!

Pink tutu to me is calling someone a "girl" aka weak.

In a way you are protesting against gay men being equated with females which means you are endorsing the female stereotype as someone weak who lacks courage.

like that is an insult?

he is well aware he is not a girl, on the other hand, he isnt going to help create the girl as something less desirable in the process of defending self.

that is being aware

When my older son was about eleven he had the most beautiful below shoulder length blonde hair. When we went to Taiwan/China - EVERYONE there assumed "he" was a girl. He didn't correct people, didn't get upset, etc...

I asked him after the first couple of days if it bothered him and he said, "no, mom. It's not like being called a girl is an insult or anything!" He went on to say he didn't want to embarass them by correcting them.

My brother absolutely refused to buy that my son wasn't bothered by being called a "girl".

these are the enlightened ones. i love your son, lol

Will it surprise you to learn that he became a ballet dancer just a few years ago? Thus adding to my outrage over these remarks.

He has been automatically assumed to be "gay" because he dances. He was bullied horribly in his brief stint at middle school because of it.

His "best friends" have ALWAYS included "girls" along with guys. Along with gay, lesbian, trans, and all races. In 1st grade, he refused to play with the boys who wouldn't let the girls play soccer with them. He organized the girls, formed a team and challenged the little - uh - dears - to a soccer match wherein the girls proceeded to kick butt. Those "boys" quit saying that "girls can't play soccer" and soon thereafter (most) everyone played happily together.

My younger son (12) - who is a lineman sized football player - is ALSO a ballet dancer (and jazz, tap, modern, lyrical, hiphop, contemporary), and I find it odd no one ever teases him about it. In fact, some of his coaches are trying to figure out how to get some of the other boys to take classes, too! They tell me one doesn't usually find a guy his size, that quick & agile!

and yes, we see the difference the fooball player body gets with the other.

that is a wonderful story. thanks for telling me. i really really enjoy hearing about the kids breaking away from the conditioning. i like my sons coming ot me with experiences in the day, that this happens. so great. thanks.

skill-sets. :)

:)

ETA: I have no problem being equated with a woman; I never have. I do have a problem with it when it is meant as an insult.

your post makes no sense.

You twisted, I was untwisting your remarks. The "pink tutus" may be a sexist slam, but it is often used against gay men and it isn't that we don't like being equated to or called "girls/women" it is we are objecting to sexism being used as homophobia. Perhaps it is too nuanced for you to understand.

i understand it has been used in both ways.

So seabeyond, there is a reason DSC created this thread to express his outrage and disappointment and others have, as well.

i absolutely know the reason he did. i recommended his op.

i also saw how he in his own manner, and not with intent, slighted female (probably just in wording he chose). i also understand that it was not intended and ignored. it was just that poster recognized, and i had a little giggle moment acknowledging it. my bad, was expressing agreement with that poster. a poster i have never agreed with in past because i feel he/she has an agenda, and thought ooops, when i hit post.

but then, i had already done it so in honesty, left standing. just the kind of gal i am. and sure enough, that poster was addressed, bringing me along in the wake. which is fine.

now, i think i have totally explained myself.

In the context in which it was used here on DU it was specifically a slam against the LGBT community, and it IS a frequently slur used against effeminate gay men.

Denying that this is an anti-gay slur is just naive and deny reality.

But sexism and hetero-sexism are intertwined. They reinforce each other. Both are based on strict enforcement of gender roles. So saying that this is sexism, and saying that this is anti-gay are both right.

And makes the assertion that gay men lack no courage unlike women I suppose.

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Why I find the term pink tutu so damn offensive

But the one stereotype that really aggrivates me is that we lack courage

effiminate, aka pink tutu

Put those three things together and you are offended at being called pink tutu aka effeminate (having feminine characteristics) because that is an accusation of lacking courage.

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....probably more than they should, in order to get into and stay in the company...but the are generally very strong people to be able to put up with the rigors of their art.

.... about the courage part. But I disagree with your premise. The term is effective and it is not necessarily aimed at gay people. To be honest, to be a ballerina and wear a pink tutu and dance for others takes courage also. Maybe not the same courage as it takes to stand up and be who you are when parts of society are idiots, but courage nonetheless.

Images like this are based on deeply held symbolism and quite often have nothing to do with anything factual.

I wish you wouldn't take it personally, when I use the term I am most definitely not thinking it applies to you.

"Take off the pink tutu. It's time to put on the boxing gloves and fight for the people and go fighting for the people."

Had he left out the first sentence, likely no one would be offended. The fact that he made that comparison speaks for itself. I know and you know that the two aren't mutually exclusive, but a lot of ordinary, non-politically wonky people don't.

As a woman and an ally, it's offensive to me regardless of how he meant it. And furthermore, it's simply a very, very stupid thing to have said.

:patriot:

Nobody I know would use such a putdown.

"I, like a lot of people who voted for President Obama, and certainly one of the best days I've had in the last decade was being able to vote for him, but I would like to say to him with all due respect, to please take off your pink tutu because it's time to put on the boxing gloves and go fighting for the people."

Had he simply left off the pink tutu part; I'd have no problem with what he said.

yup

it really is not a tough one. it is not an either or.

the either or is be sexist or dont

I'm considering Mikchael's age and generation.

I don't think he was disparaging Obama as 'gay'. It was an unfortunate choice of words.

personally. because of the show and attitude to female, he was doing what a lot of men find themselves doing when in a group, diss female to feel like a man.

i dont even think it is any more of a deal then all the many sexist, bullshit, comments we hear on a regular basis that condition both genders to womens place in this society.

but

i am not going to pretend it was nothing. becuase it is something. it is a continual conditioning. adn i am not, nor do i want to be defined as weak, timid and if i am aggressive, a bitch.

But it is offensive to many--and understanding why opens up a dialog about the place those who are offended have in society.

Doesn't matter if it's meant to indicate gay or feminine--the implication is that both are weak and delicate and afraid to fight. That's why the boxing metaphor alone would have ben perfect.

to call him a coward.

I used to see it all the time on DU until someone must have pointed out how bigoted it really is.

A lot of expressions are based in bigotry. People used to say, "Get your cotton-picking hands off of that" all the time, but think about that one for a minute and you will see why it's offensive.

Another one that's very common is "Grow a pair." A pair of what, exactly?

Sometimes people just don't think first.

i wonder about this one too, so i have stopped using it. dont know if it is blacks, cards, shovel.

but i have never thought of cotton picken hands.... wow. thanks

Call a spade a spade
Meaning
To speak plainly - to describe something as it really is.

Origin
It might be thought that this derives from the derogatory use of the slang term 'spade', meaning Negro - an American term originating in the 20th century. That view of it as derogatory might also be thought to be supported by this piece from John Trapp's Mellificium theologicum, or the marrow of many good authors, 1647:

"Gods people shall not spare to call a spade a spade, a niggard a niggard."

Trapp's use of 'niggard' is difficult to interpret. The word had several meanings in the 17th century. It could be used to mean 'miser', which is the more common usage today, or as a general term of abuse - 'lout', 'barbarian' etc. The word was also used as the name of firebricks in grates.

The co-incidence in form and pronuctiation of 'niggard' and 'nigger' causes some confusion. Although the two words probably derived independently, they doubtless affected each other's development of meaning over time.

Whatever Trapp's intention was, we can be confident that he didn't mean 'nigger' or 'negro'.

An earlier expression of the notion, albeit in different form to that which we now use, comes from Nicolas Udall's 'Apophthegmes, that is to saie, prompte saiynges. First gathered by Erasmus' - translated in 1542:

"Philippus aunswered, that the Macedonians wer feloes of no fyne witte in their termes but altogether grosse, clubbyshe, and rusticall, as they whiche had not the witte to calle a spade by any other name then a spade."

This refers back to Plutarch's Apophthegmata.

The eccentric right-wing British Tory politician Sir Gerald Nabarro was fond of emphasizing his direct 'man of the people' image by saying 'I call a spade a shovel'. In fact, despite being from an immigrant family himself, Nabarro loudly supported the repatriation of Caribbean immigrants to the UK. How he referred in private to the people who would have undoubtedly have been called 'spades' in Nabarro's social circle isn't recorded.

I always thought it had more to do with the garden implement...a spade is not a shovel. Or something to do with playing bridge.

the way republicans use words to boil down an issue to its essence.

Oddly, when the words "pink tutu" some to my mind, it's accompanied by an image of a little girl 5-6 yrs old, trying awkwardly to "be a ballerina". It has no "sexist-homophobic" connotations.

The phrase may send out alarm signals in people who are sensitive to their own issues, but to me it's synonymous with being childishly naive, and perhaps little girlish.

Didn't we all find this out during the 2004 election, and the 2000 one before that?

Our nation is obsessed with manliness, macho, boisterous behavior. We "like" it in our tv/movie stars and in our politicians. It's sad, but it is what it is.

John Kerry explained things in detail & W just made up funky words, strung a few of them together and the message (whatever it was at the time) was honed to a few easy to repeat words.

It goes on today..

death panel vs detailed explanation of what the plan actually was...yawn
clean coal vs what intelligent people know it really is (our side does it too, occasionally)
death taxes vs a lengthy explanation of how it's just an inheritance tax designed to finally tax longtime-untaxed-freebie money left to people who did not earn any of it

Why are there few, if any, parallel "slurs" used against women pols...and why they are not as "effective"? Men still dominate the political arena, and in fact women this time around wanted to be seen as "manly" .....

pink tutu = weak & little girlie

Is there even a comparative slam to be used against a grown woman?

tomboy? Many (most?) little girls are not chastised by society for playing boys' games.

Our society has clearly defined "how a man should act".. It should be strong, decisive, and determined. I don't think it has anything to do with personal sexual identity. W was strong, decisive and determined.. he was also wrong in every decision he made, but he did not appear to be weak, or little-girlie.

Mike was just making the point that Obama is not acting like a grown up man, when he seems indecisive and too willing to back down to his aggressors. In a child's world, the little girl being picked on by the big naughty boys, would run home, in her little ballet class outfit, and complain to Mommy.

i suggest the latter.

i also state that it is to continue the illusion of females as weak, males as strong.

that is sexist.

picture of an opponent..one that is easy for cartoonists to pick up on, and for political commentators to use again & again.


Like it or not, women are still called the "weaker sex"..is it true? of course not
but in simplistic-America, "weaker" is a subjective term, to be defined as each individual chooses.

Men may have more physical strength ..or not..but as a whole group, men are still perceived to be stronger physically, and most men I have known are quite sensitive to any criticism of their strength..even the ones who have trouble opening a jar of pickles :P..

This is WHY pols love to use the effective tool of feminizing their male opponents..

Recent crude behavior of many politicians pretty much proves that just about anything in that arena is not necessarily an impediment to re-election..(Vitter)...

We don't have to like it, but it is what it is.

Politics is a mean game and rules are rarely followed. Feelings are hurt and mean things are said, but it has always been that way, and will probably always be.

The ones who are the boldest, get the most attention, and attention often translates into votes..

Stupid people vote too.. (as this recent election proved)

hwo many black people were told to suck it up accept it.

the only reason sexism will continue to be the way it is, is allowing hte very people that are on our sides, our allies to continue it on and not be more of a man, to withstand the pressure of falling back on dissing women to feel like men themselves.

as another poster pointed out. all he had to do was leave tutu out and say, .... obama needs to put the boxing gloves on.

but sittin with sexist maher, he resorted to male talk with another man, dissing women to make his point.

yes

i expect more out of him them that, and i am going to say i do.... outloud.

I just say...I already did. Right up here.

The pink tutu thing is not about being gay... it's about classical music (banal classical music usually) and dancing on tip-toe.

Having worked on many a ballet and with many dancers...

BALLET DANCERS WORK MORE AND HARDER AND ARE BETTER ATHLETES THAN THE AVERAGE BASEBALL PLAYER. They usually are teenagers up there in front of everyone doing amazing things, and get paid nothing for it with no recognition.

They are amazing people! If only our politicians had that much commitment and stamina!

similar reasons as yours.

I'm all for breast cancer research and I'm female.

However, I HATE the color pink and I HATE how that automatically means "female" and I HATE that everyone assumes all females love the color. Because the color, for reasons good and bad, does mean "fru-fru effeminate coward," it pains me to see it used to denote both women and gay men.

Moreover, men do not wear pink tutus; little girls and ballet dancers traditionally wear tutus. To use it as an insult is offensive to gay men AND females. The gender hating needs to stop, period.

With all the troubles we have, do people really have to complain about something as trivial as this?

Thank you, dsc! :hi:

to talk shallow, I can't think that a bunch of guys knocking each other down in high speed chases (the injury rate in football is 100%) across a field to score points by crossing a line had more depth, let alone the same depth as the arts.

It is true that I have met far more gay people while working in theatre, dance, and music than I have in any other walk of life. I believe that they showed far more courage than you are giving them credit. Those who worked in the arts were among the first to stand up and proclaim with their actions and their words that they were gay. Those in the arts who are not gay were among the earliest to accept gays as just people. And that is probably because the gays in the arts were among the earliest to declare themselves.

Proudly wear that pink tutu epitaph as the badge of courage it is. Those male dancers (gay or not) were teased and bullied something fierce for wearing tights. They deserve respect that YOU are denying them.

use dance imagery to disrespect other people- to use the "tutu' metaphors to signify the girlie, the frivolous, and all those other negative things. Just like when people tell boys to stop acting like girls. The insult is implied and you can recognize that without putting down girls themselves.
Boy, do you have it ass back wards. You should read some of the replies here.

pretty confusing, but maybe you were being sarcastic at that part.
As I said, no one here is disrespecting ballerinas, and that is at best, a distant side issue here. so Im not getting what it has to do w/ the real issues here: the disrespect was against the feminine qualiles that men find very threatening and worthy of constant put downs. it doesn;t have much to do with dancers themselves.

that females are weak and timid. forever being told we must sit, lower eyes, and shut up, in order to be female.

words are used in a derogatory manner. They ignore the premise and the intent- completely! - in some sad little attempt to tell us it doesn;t matter... or something matters more than this so shut up or that someone else did it first. All lazy and selfish ways of saying "shut up" couched in a whole lot of BS. Ugh.

Get a fucking life willya? People are so fucking sensitive about useless crap when they should be outraged over REAL issues that are screwing all of us.

The term 'pink tutu' as used by Michael Moore regarding Obama has NOTHING to do with the GLBT issues which I, as a hetero, support 1000 percent. In fact, I've spoken out on behalf of my GLBT brothers/sisters emphatically over the years.

So lighten up a bit okay?

deal with the things serious in this nation, not the silly stuff like sexism and demeaning women... pffff

stand up for gays, you betcha.

stand up for women

are you kidding????

have treid to explicate why the phrase is offensive--did you bother to read them?

I'm still a fan of Moore's, of course, and had he just used the damn boxing metaphor alone, no problem. Maybe it doesn't offend you because it isn't used to denigrate "your" kind--but people are hurt by it, especially from one many consider a major, public ally--and it behooves you to understand why.

BTW, I have a very full rich life of family, work, friends, culture, and athletic endeavors, but I am one of those offended--doesn't matter which category, and I suggest you take a moment to listen before extolling me to "get a life."

and I wasn't offended at all by what he said. Whether that's right or wrong is another story. I know I'm not weak. I know what MM meant by saying what he said. Yes, he should have left off the pink tutu part. I'm not going to go deep thinking an off the cuff remark by someone I respect. I'm unemployed. My nephew has a very aggressive bone cancer. I've got un-paid medical bills 90+ days past due. I'm going to apply for food stamps tomorrow. I got other things to worry about than what some talking head says, frankly.

However, as another poster mentioned...pink tutu was used around here alot vis a vis certain political figures. I recall Anne Coulter being called a c*nt. I also recall there being very little outrage at the time.

same people on this thread challenged and fought the righteous using that word on coulter.... stating du's hypocrisy, the sexism of it even if we did not like the woman.

i am sorry for your troubles. we can have more than one issue, one concern, at a time

the use of "n****r," either, should they have?

Not some privileged white straight male.

seriously, in terms of spinning your wheels and wasting time, people here are talking about things that concern them, and you're here to say you think its unimportant to you. No one cares for your critique, it;s self important bullshit.
so who needs to get a life?
YOU.

:loveya:

:loyeya:

"Fred Small is a terrific songwriter who has singled handedly captured the absurdity of our military policy in this simple, catchy song."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG7JSA2yhgc

At the risk of being attacked for being trivial, etc..... here goes...

I'd like to add that who the hell thinks anyone wearing a pink tutu is weak?

My daughter and son are aspiring professional ballet dancers. They work 8-10 hours a day in this physically demanding art form known as ballet. A pink tutu is a sign of weakness? Try it -- then we'll talk!

Further...

I tell people (and yes, they ask) that I don't care if my son is gay or straight -- at least he's in a world/profession that accepts him no matter which he is. They never ask about my daughter -- just assume.

The truth is, my little guys is 13 and I've made it so OK for him to be gay if that's who he is -- that I've had to sit him down and say, "Son, really... Mommy and Daddy are OK if you're straight... we want you to know it's OK..." lol! That's the running joke in our family because honestly, we have so many gay/straight friends I don't think about it any more. I'm a straight, married female and my closest friend is a gay male. At this stage, my son says he knows he's straight -- but he is already accustomed to defending his gay friends and answering questions of his own sexual identity.

I knew that I was out of touch with popular culture, but not that out of touch.

For your common sense, and your refusal of herd mentality.


It's unfortunate that we have so many centuries of connecting feminine and/or feminine-trait symbols associated with women and male homosexuals, to cowardice.

of Sarah Falin.

I love your posts and read you often so please don't take offense. I can empathise with your position and I am a Mum to a bi teen. We hate stereotypes. BUT..Sista Sarah has taken the reins and made this sort of 'riled' up her M.O. besides her, the left is accused of being overly sensitive!

Personally, I'm just saving my outrage for shite like the SWAT going in to OC Barbershops in FL. (video on top as of Sunday). That gets me outraged!

Cheers mate
Sandy
x

Also, maybe a fault isn't cowardice, but, overuse of commas, is certainly one.

Honesty in the face of adversity is the greatest kind of courage.

I'll never forget this straight guy who was ridiculing a gay guy assuming him to be weaker andthe holiest beating of his life I had to cheer.

... my mind went to my little five-year-old daughter, in days of yore, who danced in a pink polka-dotted tutu, along with all her little girl classmates -- all of whom still had the pink, not-yet-healed scars of chicken pox.

I'm not belittling your concern here, and I felt Mr. Moore might have chosen a better way to express his frustration (at least he didn't use the term "man up"), but I saw that metaphor as a reference to "dancing around the issues," being too namby-pamby and hesitant to get the job done.

It never entered my head that that term was directed at gay people. And though MM has faults, just like the rest of us, I cannot imagine his stooping to sub rosa criticisms of gays. He just comes out and says what he thinks, with very little subterfuge. If he intended to demean gays, he would have done it very concisely.

I'm a Texan by birth, an army brat who has seen a lot of the world. I'm not gay, but some of my best friends in California are! :) I once took my sixteen-year-old daughter to a GLBT party where we were the only straight women in the crowd. People were looking at us like, "Yeah, so you say. When are you going to come out???? " :) We didn't catch any viruses at the many parties we attended at that same residence. We're still straight!

"... it takes courage to be us." So true. It also takes courage to say "Wait, you're misinterpreting what I meant."

I live in Santa Fe now, and I've learned to appreciate the idea of the "talking stick." It dictates that you have to use great deliberation in conversation by waiting until the other guy is finished before it's your turn to talk, and to approach the whole thing with a default position of trusting the other party until he/she has shown evidence of not being ethical and compassionate.

I know there's plenty of difficulty and even impossibility for people who are gay. No denying that. But don't kill the messenger until you're sure what the message is! (Please?) And I fully acknowledge that with all the delays in killing off DADT, and the tragic suicides that have recently taken place, being a little (or a lot) sensitive is fully understandable.

Just know that some of us appreciate and respect your artistic/musical/literary/intuitive ways. It would be a sterile world without such!

Warm regards,

Judy Barrett
Santa Fe, NM

I was highly offended by the "pink tutu" comment, and I am a straight woman. It's not only homophobic, there's a tinge of misogyny as well.

I doubt he was calling Obama gay.

And come to think of it, I don't think I've seen it on DU. Not saying it's not there, it just doesn't appear in threads I frequent. I never liked the term either, though.

I probably stopped visiting bartcop three years ago or more. After I press post on this message, I'm going to surf over and see if it's still there.

On edit: Okay, just returned from bartcop. I remember why I stopped reading the site... it never really changes. You could do a find and replace to swap Obama for Daschle and the site would be the same as it was 7 years ago.

Or a fan of any of the democrats Bart thinks are surrender monkeys.
I personally don't think he goes far enough in his criticism.

In fact over the years in which I've read Bartcop, I think he has moderated his rhetoric to a great degree.
What he has not moderated is his positions on the issues. One of those issues in which he remains adamant is gay rights. You'll never read or hear him saying gays should wait their turn or submerge their fight for rights for the "greater good". That is a position that Obama and the democratic leadership have taken.
Bart wouldn't put the pink tutu on any gay, lesbian, bisexual, or trans-gender person who was fighting for their rights. He would reserve that for the people such as Dashle or Obama who don't fight for those rights.

I do believe he owes an apology to ballerinas though.

(and Moore's use of it, followed with "and put ON the boxing gloves") to mean quick dancing around with the ReThugs when what we REALLY need to do is start PUNCHING THEM IN THE FACE. Aren't "tutus" worn by not generally women, or gay men, but by dancers specifically? Again, not trying to argue, and I see the point now, but that's never how I took that expression. :shrug:

talking screamin....... being, like a girl. weak, timid, emotional, incapable.

do not wear tutus.

I was the "moody, introspective, sensitive kid" so I was constantly accused of being gay.

Ironically the most macho, butch guy I know is gay.

Oh, and in many Ancient Greek city-states the elite infantry unit was for gays only!

so kick

I love the arts, adore musicals, sports, Eh. I'm not flighty but I do like the ballet...