There is a strange vibe in DU

and factions are not hardening, have hardened.

Welcome to the NEW DU...

And I know why... we are about to make a hard right turn... never mind that it was that center right part of the coalition that was voted out.

Of course the MEME from the media is the same as the meme from some folks here. If you do not accept the RIGHT OF YOUR PARTY. that is flyover country... their words not mine, the Ds are condemned to permanent minority status.

Well the base is not center right... a large of it is not. So we might be seeing the fracturing not just of one party (The GOP is quite fractured now) but of two...

Hey look on the bright side, if we had the balls to actually modify the system the way it should, allowing for MORE parties, we would have anywhere from three to five major political parties.

But yes, regardless of all polls... we are seeing the beginnings of the shattering of the 2008 coalition. There are ways to stop it, but voters are getting to the sad conclusion that lesser evilism is pissing in the wind.

Oh and regardless of what some Republicans claim and how the leadership of our party acts, the US is NOT a center right country, just a pretty abused one.

And revolts starts in different ways... suffice it to say that the STOP the abuse at airports is connected to this... in some interesting ways. Perhaps the people have had it... yes I can hope

Oh and I expect the hardened factions here to just go La, La, La, I can't hear you, from now on... I also expect the mods to have a lot more fun than they have had...

everyone is evil but those who agree with you?

IT started after the election... and the CENTRISTS (as well as leadership) missed by a mile what happened. Well then again, if the leadership wants a revolt from bellow, so be it.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

enough. It was a fairly typical midterm election and when you factor in the bad economy, the amount of seats lost were pretty ordinary and predictable.

What I find most interesting are those who are using this election to justify something ideologically. It was not an ideological election. People were not clamoring for progressivism, centrism or conservatism. They just want something done with the economy and jobs, at least those who showed up did.

Even the idea that more blue dogs lost than progressives misses the point by a mile. Those blue dogs who lost were in districts that are more competitive or outright tilt republican in general.

Any kind of ideological statement about this election is spinning beyond what the data is saying.

it was a protest vote... a protest election.

In that I agree with you. That is what the data reveals... that this box of rocks that is the electorate is protesting.

but here, on DU... the split is far more than just that... and it's hardened. I am betting, since I have seen it in the wild here that the same is happening about party activists.

It was also a coalition that did not show up... which is at the heart of US Elections, building of coalitions.

every time. The party that lost the last Presidential election is always more energized and they show up in larger numbers producing a loss for the President's party. Virtually the only time this has not happened in the last 70 years or so was after 9/11 when people thought that a vote for the President's party was a way to show their patriotism.

amongst the 400+ for the house that were ideological... and perhaps one in the Senate out of 33...

That don't mean that positions here have not hardened though.

And I gotten to the point to liberally use the ignore button. I am getting tired of some of this.

they are going into triangulation mode

to see what transpires.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

They are into "what can be passed with the congress we have that has a chance to create jobs and improve the economy" mode. It's hardly the same thing.

I honestly do not think the idea is so far-fetched, if we have a corporate-owned Republican and a corporate-owned Democrat who do not represent the core constituencies of their respective parties, I could see independent candidates from the left and right running in the election.

These are really strange (and tough) times.

I agree, last time that happened was 1824, I even pointed this out,

I guess MM and I are on the same vibe here.

real Liberal vs. real Conservative.

4 way action.

people should re-read what happened in 1824 quite frankly.

The slow crash into the ground by our benevolent overseers grinds on...

It's sock puppetry.

The moderates, blue dogs and the ones who are on FOX News all the time.

"We're dems so you still have to vote for us if you're a dem too. We'll still screw you over and reward special interests like our republican opponents, we just won't do it as bad as they would".

And many middle-aged and older white people have been manipulated. Too many actually believe all that garbage which comes from O'Reilly, Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity and the rest. There is no major source countering right wing propaganda.:(

Again, you can try to spin this as somehow justifying your viewpoint but it doesnt work. This was not an ideological election.

and I agree with you ....we are not a center right country and DU is definitely turning "righter" than ever before....

I keep thinking that yes...people have had enough....one of these days....I still have hope.....I think.

Everyone is pissed. Interesting, since TPTB like to keep us all divided.

it may give people the strange idea that yes, they can stand up to authorities...

This is exactly what the tea baggers (with corporate backing but the anger is real) are doing to that party... and I see something similar happening on the D side.

People are fucking tired of the games.

And TSA will show to BOTH sides that working together is a GOOD idea.

It's a fact that those closer to the center of both parties actually decide elections. We might be center left as opposed to center right, and it probably fluctuates from year to year. But, if you do not court centrists, you lose. At least that's how it appears to be to me. I always vote dem regardless, but a big portion of the population has no allegiance to either party. I think it depends on who blows the most smoke up their asses.

on policy... polls have been done this way, and it reveals that the people like silly shit like education, public health care, good roads... good safety nets. You know lefty positions. Use labels and the mind closes down. Which shows the power of propaganda.

Oh and one more thing, it wasn't the center that decided this last election, for example, or 2008 for example. The US uses coalitions to win elections, they are either right or left, and the RISE of independent registration is a mark of people being damned tired of the parties.

I am an independent, so by your views I should be centrist right? WRONG... I am a social democrat... and if you are careful to ask, you will find that independents do not follow this stuck in the center mode either. Yes Virginia they come in many flavors.

As an independent, I do not consider you center anyhting. In fact, I'm not really sure I even understand what an independant is. I kinda saw them as people who reserved the right to vote any damned way they wanted to, which sounds pretty much what I like. I am a social liberal and fiscal conservative, I guess. I want all the social programs we need, I just want em paid for and not put on the federal credit card. We have gotta stop the deficits. I know a lot of folks here are disappointed with the HCR bill, but it actually saves money over time and pays for itself. While it fell short of helping me out ($20K/yr in insurance premiums because of wife's cancer 8 yrs ago), it did help a lot of people. Help, paid for, good stuff!

I don't think we're far apart on our philosophy. But I reserve the right to change!

it is just a strange term in US Politics, since it is far more European. Bernie Sanders is our only live example of it anywhere in power.

Only the propaganda is pulling us over to the right, not the people

We will fight with each other, but the days of Iraq wars and such nonsense will end along with America.

is the favored method instead of facts and critical thinking, then yes we have republicans in the making here on DU.

After all, if we just support Mr. President, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Feh

I for one would rather not feel like a jock strap.

-p

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

right now, Things could change in (will change) in two years... but... it is possible.

Such an election would guarantee that it would be thrown into the House of Representatives for the Presidency and the Senate for the Vice President. If you don't get a majority of the electoral votes, the Constitution says the election goes to the House of Representatives to decide the Presidency and the Senate to decide the Vice Presidency.

They will do all they can to destroy here... not that oh insert nice corporate whore here (huckabee for example) would be much better.

than a handful of DU'ers who advocate a move to the right for the Democratic party.

One is us, the base, who believe in workers' rights, a robust social safety net including universal healthcare. And a tax policy that redistributes wealth along the economic spectrum. I think that is most of us here at DU.

Then there is the Democratic Party which has become co-opted by big business and corporate interests. These people would have been considered liberal republicans before Reagan. But Reagan pushed them out of the Republican party and they didn't have anywhere to go but to us Dems.

However, we now have the same problem from the opposite end of the spectrum.

I think the two parties have just absorbed so much over the years, candidates have to twist themselves in knots trying to appeal to the base during the primaries, then, "tracking center" during the general election to attract Big Money that the labels Democrat and Republican don't mean much anymore.

I think if we want to change that in any serious way, we have to do two things as a legislative agenda, starting at the local level:

1) Lobby for publicly funded elections.

2) Lobby for easier standards for getting third party candidates on the ballots. Most states are so restrictive on who can get on the ballot. Obtaining many signatures in an unreasonable time frame is one example.

(1) As long as we have only two parties and want to be in power, we must accept more Conservative members. If we are contented to whine on the sidelines, we can be pure as the left driven snow. Neither Democrats Nor Republicans are unified as some European Parties with a single ideology, though Conservatives are closer than Democrats.

(2) We have 50 states and 1 Territorial election, and each state/territory has different laws governing parties. All of those laws are designed to facilitate a winner take all system. Even if we did not have just two parties, by it's nature, the winner take alls system we use would evolve that way so either two parties would rule or smaller parties would caucus together to gain power. To change the system from the top would require a major rewrite of the Constitution. To change it form the bottom, state by state, would be almost as difficult. States that allow referendums would be easiest. Anyone care to start a referendum that changes the way parties are handled in California?

(3) The 2006/2008 coalition has shattered, just as the Republican coalition put together in 1994 shattered in 2006. There is a lot of evidence that the number of independent voters has risen, and these voters tend to be dissatisfied with the two party system, but they also tend to swing toward whoever scares them them the most. If this election showed anything, Democrats have held onto and increased their share of the Latino Vote and the Black vote, while losing a big chunk of the Elderly vote. The Youth that finally woke up in 2008 went back to sleep, or were too busy trying to find work to vote. My theory is that the youth vote may be more swayed by charismatic leaders like Obama and just not come out when there is not single person to lead them.

(4) Republicans ran a national campaign and Democrats ran what has been the safe local campaign, following the notion that all politics is local. It may be that idea is not longer true.

(5) Finally, any post mortum of the change requires a look at the economic climate. Fears brought on by the bad economy drove the old white people to the polls, and apathy form that fear may have kept the young voter form showing up.

(6) It may be that we are too large a country for our form of government. That is just a thought.

and the hardening of factions here is but a symptom.

And yes the country might be too large, but that test will come with the end of empire (as in official)

When predictions of their demise were rife. Before the Teaparty scam hit full swing, they followed a plan to recruit wealthy candidates who could self fund, because they could not match the Democratic fund raising. The Supreme Court and the Teaparty Scam changed everything.

Democrats may come out of he funk, but not before 2014 midterm.

Progrssives and liberals, not the same group, are a contentious pairing. FDR, a liberal, was detested by progressives who viewed him as a banker and a Conservative. Modern progrssives have tended to push for bigger changes rather than incremental changes. The real truth is that the U.S. has not elected a liberal since LBJ, and has not elected a Progressive since Herbert Hoover (Yes, Hoover was a progressive). Carter and Clinton, though good men, were fiscal conservatives and social liberals, more Eisenhower Conservatives than Reaganite Conservatives.

But it is the ideology wars that continues to drive us apart, pitting one side against the other, and leaving a widening gulf of independent voters who follow the whip of their fears at the polls, or just don't vote at all. The information entertainment media serves as beaters to drive voters before them, like old fashioned African Hunts.

IS in the midst of a civil war, and I believe one is starting in the Democratic Party. This makes this a unique moment.

Mitch McConnel capitulated today, no earmarks.

I think the civil war may just be created drama.

the GOP is about to get even more radical

is supposed to confirm next year.

:hi:

McConnel makes fine fuel it seems.

:hi:

McConnel makes fine fuel it seems.

. . . especially if we're talking about what we're going to see in 2012. The presidential election should revive most of the coalition that brought President Obama to power, because he will ultimately have a single republican opponent which our party will rally against.

the climate remain the same.

I think assuming that there will be one oponent to ralley aginst is quite probably incorrect. The Republicans will nominate the most concervative person in the Fox cew that the public can stomach. And I still think it likely that Bloomberg will run an independent campaign, like Perot did in 1992and 1996. He will run to the left of Repubicans and to the right of Democrats and the eletion will follow the same pattern as Rubios. The independents who flocked to Obama are not necessarily going to be there, especially if the economy does not improve.

is indicative of Dems overall.

Domed to be forever the minority because of one election. This is pure hogwash with the intent of making you think that what I have to say is more important than what you think.

We are Democrats because we each think for ourselves and therefore we don't all agree which is something the republicans don't have a problem with. They just don't think.

Since we all think, and have independent minds, we will disagree and sometimes we will come together and when we do, great things happen whether they are appreciated at the time or not.

Maybe longer than that, but before my time.

We're supposedly always over - permanently.

Remember one thing, lots of these new seats were won by a very small margin. To a large degree, this big shift is sheer luck on the part of the RWers. It was a broad win for them, but very shallow. If there was a slight bump in numbers on our side, it would've been a big win for us instead. So the point is, it doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot - even though they say it does.

RWers always operate on sheer bluff. That's all they've got going for them now too.

I have no doubt that they'll lose their majority pretty quickly. The worst thing about it is the great amount of damage they can do in a short time.

it can be run up on any occasion.

BTW I seem to remember a guy named Feingold was on the left about as far from the center right as possible.

or outspent by the gop?



Must silence all progressive voices...and campaign finance...not gunna happen.

I personally think people were deep into their own fears with their own limited understanding.

The return of the under 35's to traditional participation levels did him no good at all.

the GOP. He was TARGETED... now tell me, in all your wisdom, how many TOTAL liberals were voted out and how many centrists? Realize the other one that also lost was also TARGETED.

And yes there is a strange vibe in this place... It is the vibe that comes with the shattering of a coalition.

:eyes:

Wow. Denial runs deep here.

And what Nadinb said....how many progs lost their seats compared to centrists?

He went into the campaign with $25 million in his war chest

And he benefited from several other things:

His opponent was bat shit

His operation on the ground was flawless and he turned out an unheard of percentage of hispanics after Bat Shit Angle's racism was exposed.

Bat Shit Angle worried the business interests of the state and we had a big group of 'Republicans for Reid,' who worked to elect him.

The gaming industry was opposed to Bat Shit Angle

Bat Shit Angle was in favor of reopening the possibility of Yucca Mountain

Bat Shit came out in favor of privatizing the VA in a state with one of the highest populations of veterans

Harry was Senate majority leader and even a lot of people who don't care for him realized it put him in a position to get us more help which we desperately need.

IOW, a majority had either a reason to vote for Harry or a reason to vote against Bat Shit. Had any one of the above factors not been there, he could easily have lost.

Most Democrats polled still overwhelmingly support their party and President. Your premise is fiction.

Oh, and the 'base' of the party is that group of Democrats that regularly votes and votes Democratic. That 'faction' of Democrats isn't strictly the progressive left.

Left, right, center, all of the above. It's a freaking message board. Nothing more, nothing less. If one is unhappy here, I am sure there are tons of other blogs, boards, and fan clubs one can join.

DU goes through cycles, but it's still a great place for discussion, to find and learn information, and to have a little fun. No one should let another poster or posters ruin their DU experience. DU is what you make of it. You can get bogged down in the bickering and in which direction it may be headed, but, at the end of the day, you can choose to ignore the things you don't like about the site and choose to take part in the things you do like.

I learned a long time ago not to take this place seriously. I once did, no longer. Since that revelation, DU's been highly enjoyable.

with some folks who take it way too seriously helps too.

I just pointed to the vibe and how it is reflecting what is going... to a point, in the real world.

We have seen the collapse of a coalition... I don't care what the polls say... proof is in the pudding in the last poll that actually counted.

Now how deep the republican support is, I suspect shallow, I suspect that OTHER coalition is not going to stay for long, but that is another story.

But we do have factions here... that is a fact jack... and they are louder due to the nature of the medium.

than a message board. Maybe I am not reading your OP correctly. Not a fan of posters blaming DU for real-word problems.

And, yes, we do have factions. Most message boards do. And I agree that that is the nature of the medium.

We are just seeing a magnified version of what is going on out there...

Anyone who takes what they read on an anonymous message board seriously ain't playing with a full deck.

Fuck, we have Larouchies, rockets scientists who voted for Nader, and a large assortment of other nuts posting at this site. You name it, we have at least one of them here.

Don

Why? Not because of money, but because these areas were hurting.

The 5 million dollars from the outside resulted in a ~5% difference. That's a shift of 2.5% of the vote. Johnson's win wasn't as strong as Feingold's in 2006. BUT, in 2010, the proportion of voters who turned out (and sister, voting machine fraud conspiracies aside, it's ALL about who turns out) over the entire state shifted toward republicans (and mostly against incumbents). The shift that got Feingold was about 3%.

Feingold's loss can't be seen as simply a matter of targeting him. Wisconsin went pretty much red all over. The state legislature went red. The governorship went red. Feingold's seat was lost, we were fortunate to hang on to Tammy Baldwin. Politicians in the state generally saw this coming from many months away. Exactly WHY do you think Obey hung it up? He was in a VERY powerful position. You think he just wanted to do something different with his grand kids?????????????????

Critically for Feingold, the Green Bay area went red and Racine and Kenosha went red. In 2008 there was a meager red stripe from the Green Bay suburbs south through Waukesha County, this year these two populatoin dense, critical, blue, areas became pink. Feingold held areas that he had represented in his earlier career, much of the state went lavender, but it wasn't enough.

In my own opinion as a resident, voters of Wisconsin voted their economic fear, their ignorance of Keynsian economics (supported by Feingold), and their disappointment in things as they are. As anyone who understands the impact of fear on staying the course on politics, the state went anti-incumbent and to the right.

"DU - A large assortment of other nuts"



Couldn't have said it better myself!

One reason I like it here.

That's the source of the 'weird vibe'.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

It may be reaching critical mass now, but it's been building for at least two years. It's not just a matter of differing opinions but the very clear attempt to silence opinions that question the rightward movement. I, quite frankly, find it suspicious whenever opinions questioning the current admin from the left are likened to trolling and very specific inflammatory threads are used as evidence of "hate". No doubt, there are trolls amongst us but generally flame-bait is easy to spot. The fact that some people seem to have a clear agenda is far more disturbing.

A few people make this place their life, and that's okay. I've been here a long time, I don't post often, but I read quite a bit. I love this place and have seen the changes firsthand, And no it's not like it used to be. Having said that it is my opinion that we do enjoy a diversity of opinion here. Certainly there are cliques, but I don't see any points of view being squashed by either the admins or other posters. You hinted that you feel this place is beholden to Barack Obama, and that anything anti Obama is quickly pounced upon. Sorry, I don't buy this. There has always been a healthy anti Obama bitchery present.

DU is many things. I use it mainly as a source to gather news around the globe. I find I can find out important events quicker here than other news sources. I'm glad to be able to see such a diversity of opinions here, especially happy to see some which I vehemently disagree with.

So keep it up DU'ers, this place is a grand place to be a part of.

one faction happens to be the one that cannot stand any criticism of POTUS and they are closer than they realize to the other side that could not stand any criticism of POTUS.

That is ONLY ONE FACTION.

And they have hardened.

But at the end of the day, how vitally important is all this?

It's an internet message board among MANY. Cliques and "factions" happen all the time.

But so what? It's just a bunch of people throwing their opinions in each other's faces. Close the browser window and it all goes away.

you got the progressives, no, not the same thing...

And the other two major ones are the socially liberal\ fiscally conservative...

And as much as they deny it, the DLC.

To be fair... those are the major ones, and membership is mostly NOT set in stone, but it is starting to be.

As to the importance, it is a heightened reality of what is going on in the real world. Or are you telling me everybody is happy and there is no discontent out there? It is the economy stupid and people know at a deep level that something is really wrong...

And while everybody here and the real world screams OBAMA, DEMOCRATS, REPUBLICANS... it comes down to epic levels of corruption and not public financed elections. (At the tip of the iceberg of course)

Sid

another anymore. I've been called a cheerleader and someone who doesn't like the POTUS (whatever one of those may be called) here and sometimes in the same thread.

Both sides seem to have been spun into a frenzy. There a lot of dishonest arguments being made in earnest. I think its become more about the people than the ideas, so perhaps the new DU rules may be helpful.

And it is not just happening on DU. Local democratic groups are experiencing the same thing. I just went back to visit my parents who are active in the local democratic party in my hometown. Their entire network is fractured and organizing against each other right now. One side (of the local party) totally sat out of the election just to watch the rest of them burn. The county I grew up in is under Republican control for the first time in several decades because of it.

Excellent post btw.

it is not surprising either.

The country... no, not just Republicans or Democrats... is becoming increasingly fractured over ideological lines.

It is interesting that you have observed this in the wild as it were. So have I.

You'd expect that if these were normal times, people would unite to defeat the "other side," so there is something going on that is of interest...

Best case scenario this will be interesting to watch...

My mind reels at the worst case scenarios.

I think we are getting the "Dean Scream" treatment from some supposedly reputable sources about most things. Selective editing, misleading headlines, coupled with some clumsy political responses, and now we are divided over rhetoric.

Sure I'm disappointed in quite a bit, but I'm in this for the long game.

Most of the time, direct interventions (in threads) do not go well and wind up turning me into that which I hate. I don't recommend it.

Argumentative people arguing with argumentative people, even when they agree on most issues.

Crisis junkies love turmoil, and find it whether it exists or not.

Cool Term. There are some here who fit that description.

I like it.

May I steal it??

I cannot hear you over the awesomeness I am!

that was great!

...I've been veering as left as I possibly can, and will continue to do so.

And the percentage of Democrats approving of Obama is the highest for any President in 50 years.

So unfortunately, while you may feel that you are relevant and significant, you really belong to a very small minority. Not only do the vast majority of Democrats vote for the "lesser of two evils," but they don't even see Obama as an "evil" in the slightest.

but thanks for providing a life example of the lack of civility and hardening of factions.

:hi:

Oh and also for one of the factions.

You know the one that lost horribly so in the Congress...

And basically every other poll has confirmed that Obama's approval among Democrats is the highest in decades.

As for Congress, you assume we lost in Congress because we were too far right, as opposed to Independents thinking we were too far left.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

going to be taken in by the "shiny new object."

I know that's an oversimplification, but the coalition wasn't as strong as you may have thought it was.

Only a small percentage of the voters actually pay attention to what is going on, who's doing it, and make informed choices.