Are you kidding me? Are you KIDDING me? This WAS possible, the WHOLE TIME??

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/11/liberals_to_dem_leaders_hold_a.html




The Dems really CAN just force an up/down vote on ONLY the middle class tax cuts?

AND THEY HAVEN'T ALREADY DONE IT?

Why the hell are we even HAVING THIS DISCUSSION over the tax cuts?


Just put forward the permanent extension of the middle-class cuts and let the Republicans tie themselves in knots over whether they're going to vote for it. We win, no matter the outcome. If it passes, we don't have any more discussion about tax cuts for a long time without being able to dismiss it as cuts for the rich. And, if the Republicans vote against it, we hang it around their neck in 2012 like kryptonite on Superman.

Honestly, who would actually vote AGAINST this? Again- ARE YOU KIDDING ME?


This is freaking ABSURD. Why should we be having to pull our own representatives' teeth to do this right? This whole time, I was assuming there was some procedural hurdle that we couldn't get over, as I think most of us were doing. Turns out, the Dems have just been complete idiots.

They're obviously not successful Americans, or they wouldn't be stuck in the middle class. Why is ANYone even considering rewarding SLOTH??






Oh, yeah: :sarcasm:

------------------------

How do we get them to stop being idiots?

*facepalm*

Recommended.

:)






.

Dems didn't call the vote because they were afraid their rich contributors would walk away from them and support their Repug opponent even more abundantly than they already were. It was Dems being un-Dem, as usual. Of course, the un-Dem president totally supported this action!

Reprehensible!!

telling them what they need to do and must do with subtle hints of a threat if they don't. And that little bird is one of thousands of lobbyists who know nothing but their own self-interest. And those thousands of birds are drowning out the voice of the people.

:-(

If Republicans don't want this to come up for a vote, it won't.

I'd be surprised if the bill didn't pass 95-0.

Who, exactly, would vote against this?

Because of course unlike during the Bush era, you need 60 senators to pass anything in the Senate.

by voting against cloture.

That's the beauty/ugliness of a filibuster: nobody has to actually vote against the bill.

They can't filibuster middle-class tax cuts because they want cuts for millionaires. The anger would be amazing.

Or they'll simply call it "the largest tax increase in history", and even with a little less dishonesty than they usually have when they say that.

We already cut taxes and nobody noticed or gave a damn; it would surprise me if anybody cared this time.

The public isn't well educated enough, unfortunately. We couldn't say they voted against the tax cuts, because they wouldn't have. They just voted against having to vote! And all of them individually could pretend that they really supported middle class tax cuts.

You don't think that's enough? It paints their brand pretty badly.

They wouldn't do it. We'd KILL them in 2012.

"The Republicans filibustered permanently extending the middle-class tax cuts."

"The Republicans let the middle-class tax cuts expire."

etc., etc., on and on. Those would be some nasty campaign ads.

The reason this is so tough is because a lot of Democrat's want to make permanent the tax cuts on the Upper Class. They won't say so out loud but it is true. They haven't found a way to do it and blame the Republican's yet. I think they will find a way though, will see soon enough.

if the pugs want to block tax cuts for the middle class, that should be mentioned every time we open our mouths. i'm tired of this. what is there to lose in making those assholes actually filibuster something and show who they truly work for?

Olberman and RAchel will cover it, but their share of the market is small.

Republicans will appear on every other media outlet and say we are standing firm on lower taxes on all Americans.

A Tax cut will be broadcast from everywere as Obama is raising your taxes. The argument to cover it just doesn't hold water.

Their voters really believe that taxing 2% of Rich Americans hurts the poor AMericans. It doesn't maek sense, but that is what they believe.

Why are you arguing against this?

Look at the polls. People KNOW who they want to be taking on the tax burden- the rich. It's the position Obama RAN ON in 2008 and DESTROYED the Republicans with.

who will report that Republicans demand lowers taxes for all Americans.

Come on, man!

You want us to win? Do it right!

I will applaud it the Democrats try this, but if the plan hinges on the media to ride to the rescue, it is doomed.

I am a realist.

Take out full page ads in every major metropolitan areas ... While "leaking" a memo to MSNBC (Keith and Rachael) the plan to take out the ads because the media is trying to hide the story.

One can get the media to do what you want ... You just have to pay for it!

The inmates at the bottom (the journalists) run the asylum and they care more about the "big story" than they do about the prerogatives of their owners.

Our problem, despite the railing of many, has never been that the conservatives own the media...they've always owned the media. Hearst? It's that we suck at the media game and facts matter less than the ability to deliver the "big story" in easy to understand and concise frames. Republicans are great at the media game.

If the media could run "Obama gets mad, smacks down GOP." they would...that's a compelling story. "Obama deliberates tax cuts, maybe he'll compromise on the top 2% or perhaps he won't. He's going to discuss it over lunch with GOP leaders. His advisors are saying conflicting things off the record anyways so who knows?" is a bit too damned wordy.

As long as we continue to suck at this media game & continue to blame everything but our failings instead of fixing this problem, nothing will ever change.

So create a spectacle of it.

Instead of quietly accepting the Republican's notice that they will filibuster, roll out the cots. Make a big show whereby the Republicans actually have to filibuster. Sure, it's not going to be a "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" event, but it's a plenty big show to fill time on cable news.

is buttered.

Any strategy that hinges on the media waking up is doomed for failure. It is not in their interest to wake up. Their bottom line is best served by dishing out entertainment and division.

This is about turning government into a reality TV show for a night. And there's no good way for the Republicans to spin holding the rest of the country hostage so Wall Street executives can keep more of their bonuses.

And fortunately, since it's not a "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington"-style filibuster, we'll have hours and hours to talk about how the Republicans are raising everyone's taxes.

(In the modern filibuster, a member of the filibustering group just has to object to any motions to move the legislation forward. They don't have to speak. Meaning we can give the Democratic Senators all night to talk about what the Republicans are doing.)

It works in the Senate because it either passes, or it makes fantastic 2012 campaign commercials.

a middle class tax cut.

Either it will pass, or we HAMMER them on it for the next two years.

THAT is the kind of hardball we should be playing. Enough with the preemptive surrender.

the excuse was 'we don't have the votes'. Which translates into 'the minority is going to get what it wants'.

NOW, we are in the minority. How about we apply the same rules and not start with any more excuses? If they could do it in the minority, so can Democrats but they have to stick together with no one going over to vote with REpublicans as they have in the past.

And, fwiw, right now Dems are still in the majority, THIS is the time to take action.

Use that and beat them over the head with it.

They'll essentially be on record opposing middle class tax cuts.

Pretty simple actually.

I dunno.

Did you start it?

I didn't start it.

Seems like it was all the rage while Mr. Obama was out for kimchi.

If this IS possible, the winning strategy is totally clear and anything else is COMPLETELY unacceptable.

Asking them what they intend to cut to pay for extending the tax cuts is too good.

There's a fresh crop of teabaggers in waiting who have a lot of answers that Americans should hear.

reversing the tax cuts is actually something concrete that can be done

for some time - it is rather mindnumbing!! Grow a spine Dems!!

in the first place. They are crooked assholes. But they have spine! Something that the Democrats simply don't have.

Just think of how many House seats could have been saved had they just did Reconcilitation..."up or down vote." That's all it took.

For one thing, they already used reconciliation to pass the health care reform "fixes." According to the rules, reconciliation can't be used more than once a year.

Second, reconciliation can't be used for anything that would increase the deficit beyond ten years. That's why the Bush tax cuts were set to expire after ten years. They couldn't pass permanent tax cuts through reconciliation.

But the Democrats can and should hold a regular up-or-down vote on this and let the Republicans go on record opposing it.

My mind is forgetful.

As far as increasing the deficit, you are right, which is why the Repukes resorted to Reconciliation in the first place. The Dems' mistake was passing PAYGO legislation *before* dealing with this issue. They knew that the tax cuts were about to sunset.

And you're right, make the Republicans vote on it!

They could extend the middle class cuts another decade, though.

And remember, the second they do extend the middle class tax cuts, the GOP is going to go absolutely apeshit ballistic about the trillions of dollars that will add to the deficit over the next ten years.

to vote for this because it's a "decoupling" of the tax brackets, and it still defacto "raising taxes" (on a tiny percentage of people), etc etc, puke, puke.

...i know. :eyes:


but,

Now that the election's over and virtually all of the BlueDogs have been wiped out, we'll see if they can muster an ounce of decency and vote for this.

Or, they've all been promised cushy private sector jobs and/or lobbyist positions awarding them for their obstructive DINO-ism.
Keep an eye on these ex-blue-dogs i say.

Who, seriously, CAN vote against this without getting CLOWNED with it in 2012?

Nobody can vote against it. Nobody!

Pass it under reconciliation in the Senate if need be.

All the theater around this just looks like cover for people who want the rich to keep their tax cut.

All the lame duck Blue Ball Dems want to run again in '12.

them.

Hard to see them through all the corporatists and millionaires.

then we should all go die.

I hope they stick to their guns and do this, but ever since the election I can barely move or breathe becasue I feel like I'm being swarmed. Busy littl RWers wanting their extra large piece of the action and spitting on the people.

In this day and age, being a democrat now automatically means being centre-right.

And our leaders don't do rude. Or winning.

the House. That's why they didn't do it before the election.

with the top 2% cuts?

I'm saying that they'll still have let the middle-class cuts expire.

decide to run again in 2012. They'd be on the record as voting against, while not being able to vote on a re-introduction.

Even worse.

Republicans would vote against it, saying it is just a political ploy to increase taxes. They are not facing an election for another two years, and they know that after January they will be able to pass an extension of ALL the tax cuts anyway, which is well before the next election. That will force Obama to either veto it or else cave in.

At this point on DU, cave has about 100-1 odds in favor of it.

...and then force the Republicans to vote against it because it doesn't have the high-end cut...

...Which will lead to 350 different versions of a devastating commercial such as this in 2012:



Which is going to harm the Republican party severely.

All for doing nothing, thanks to a little Christmas present in a time capsule sent to us by the Democrats of the bad-old-days who insisted upon a sunset clause when this bill was originally crafted.

The Democrats have to reintroduce it to defeat any attempts at the republicans stating that the democrats let the tax cuts expire. As a matter of fact they have to reintroduce an extension as loudly as possible on as many different outlets as possible stating this is a benefit for the working poor and middle class. By the way, we really need to start pushing that term. Working poor over just calling them poor.

There are likely enough conservative Democrats in the Senate already having expressed support for an extension of the TCFTW who won't vote for cloture and would block it from a vote.

All these histrionics without a clue about the consequences of the political make-up of the legislature. All you'd get out of it is a show vote putting republicans on record as opposing it. That may be worthwhile, but it's far short of any actual prospect for success.

"AND THEY HAVEN'T ALREADY DONE IT?" :eyes:

the tax cuts for the middle-class expire is just as good as getting them passed.

hypocrites, liars, and pro-rich sycophants.

Republicans aren't that stupid. They know that a vote against middle class-only tax cuts is untenable. That's why they're fighting so hard now - they need a bill that includes the tax cuts for the wealthy, or they won't be able to get them passed.

And if they do prove me wrong with their insanity...that's fantastic! I've now got utterly devastating ads to run against 40+ senators in 2012, 2014 and 2016.

Those that voted against it would have to answer to the understandably angry public.

But even the Dems that would vote for it can't have their close friends and colleagues actually face the music, because THEY might eventually face the music over some other issue down the road.

So they provide them cover by never even putting it up for a vote.

Wa-la! Democracy at work!

This is the kind of things senators sort of agree to not do. It's a place where the most important thing is not making other senators look bad and voting against this would make anyone look bad. There are all sorts of unwritten rules and odd behaviors involved in being a senator. They often describe it as the most exclusive club in the world. Anytime there is a maverick, he gets put in line pretty quickly by his own party. Just notice how the firebrands get calmer and calmer over their terms.

Basically the senate is not a place where the people are the top priority.

I have no idea why it would be so wrong for us to do it.

Maybe I'm too dumb to decide :shrug:

for retaining tax cuts for the wealthy. Granted, the GOP wouldn't like it either, but my bet is that the conservative Dems will work to put the kibosh, likely successfully with WH backing, on any such vote. Kudos to the Progressive Caucus nonetheless.

They didn't want to piss off corporate people any more than they felt they had.

But as usual the wh fucked up.

They went with the impotent playbook and lost.

way to keep the breaks for the 1% that don't need them.

so-called "moderates" and "centrists" in either party to vote for "middle class" tax cuts.

And they prefer a bi-partisan compromise that will maintain the tax cuts for the rich at least until the Republicans regain control of the Senate in two years who can make the cuts permanent.

Why just a permanent tax rate for the middle class?? Are the rate for 'lower' class low enough not to include in this measure? Oh, perhaps permanent rates for all except the wealthy sounds too---crass? Obvious?

I like the way you think. :thumbsup:

We could burn the Republicans with this one.

friends the super-wealthy. WE ARE IN A FUCKING CLASS WAR. THE DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS ARE NOT, I REPEAT, ARE NOT ON OUR SIDE. Jeeeze

we might could get at least a couple to put this up for vote. Of course, those couple would be banned from the popular table in the Senate dining room for a year.

Thanks

If the progressives in congress can get this done, they will have to do it without Obama because as my first post stated, he is a coward. He will not stand up for us. He has proven that time and time again.

Obama will pull for the temporary extension of all cuts because when that extension comes up he will either be out of office or can claim to be hamstrung by a republican majority in both houses, a majority which he will have helped create.

playing the role assigned to them by TPTB. Give 'em an Oscar for best in Kabuki Theater....exit, stage left.

They could have done a shitload of things....but, they know where their campaign funds come from.

So many Blue Dogs were voted OUT, that
the Progressive Caucus is now LARGER than
the old Blue Dogs and "New Dem" caucuses
COMBINED.

Now the "Neo-Dems" don't have the Blue Dogs
to hide behind.

Should be an interesting 2 years.

to prevent a vote.

We should still do it in the House, but that's as far as it will get, probably.

Which puts the Republicans on record.

2012 election ad: "Senator _____ raised your taxes, because we in the Democratic party did not want to give more money to Wall Street executives."

Go ahead and filibuster. It'll make 2012 really easy for the Democratic party.

Anyone may answer.

Were posting some 4-5 months ago, forcing a vote before the election on only middle class tax cuts. Maybe the law makers should assign someone to monitor the progressive blogs for ideas.

THEY GIVE A FUCK ABOUT "WE THE PEOPLE"

by the Democratic Party, it is that it is becoming impossible for the party to act as though they are defending the middle class' interests. It's also becoming impossible for apologists of the party leadership to make coherent defenses of its actions. For how long can you put your personal faith in an individual(s) above the ideals that the Democratic Party espouses but repeatedly does not live up to and as in this case may be working against?

Thanks for the info.

K&R

They're corporatist, most of them. They don't work for the working or middle class. They work for those who are paying them: the richest Americans. They only say they want the Bush tax cuts to expire, in order to look good in the media; they want to fool the people into believing they're working for them, but the Republicans are just too darn evil...!

of power; of Potus, and congress.

You are talking common sense. How many times in the last two years or ten for that matter, have you seen any common sense hailing down from the Senate. It really comes down to whether Pelosi, Reid and (0) really want to let the taxes for the rich expire. Judging from the past, Pelosi would fight for letting them expire, if she had the Presidents backing. Of that backing, I am very dubious.

If they were serious, they would have done this when they had a majority.

If not we will see another Kabuki dance like health care; to the stylings of the (0)chorus band, confusing the issue into an enigma, rapped in a riddle, baked in mystery and ultimately the taxes for the wealthy will stay non existent; with all their loopholes for poodle clips, yacht taxes and umpteen houses around the world; add infinitum. Frankly I do not believe (0) when he says he is "strongly" for letting the taxcuts for the rich expire.

You might as well believe; for every drop of rain the falls; a flower grows. But that is perhaps substantially more believable and is a far prettier thought and far less benign.

Watch for a lot of grandstanding before the fall to get the contributions greasing the wheels. This one should be worth plenty.

If in fact, The taxcuts expire at the end of the year and a bill extending the taxcuts on the middle classes passes into law; I will be the first to clap myself into slobbering delirium.

Otherwise, anybody taking bets??????? I'll give 50 to 1 odds.

Thats 50 don't believes to your 1 believe.

My dream? To be proven wrong and lose all my believability, if there ever was any to be had

Unfortunately history is heavily on my side.

Just for starters, the catfood commish, the patriot act, the presidential power to designate whoever a terrorist and disappear that person.


And yet it is time for the exception.

The roulette ball has fallen on odds so many times in the last 10 years, it is as if the game is fixed (hahahaha add infinitum, till the straight jacked and muzzle brings silence); it is time for change.

Que the (0) chorus band.

So I'll put out whatever effort is available to me, letters, donations, petitions, phone calls and whatever; just on the chance that it matters.

they just don't wanna do it.

would vote for it.

Big deal, let the GOP filibuster on middle class tax cuts.. Let them hold up on tax cuts for the middle class, and play partisan politics... They stand to lose a lot more than the Dems by doing this.. We'll be sticking up for middle class America, they'll be sticking up for the richest 1%.. Capture it all on tape, then blast their antics during prime time campaign season.. We need not say a word, they will fall on their own sword...


it's a win-win proposition.

I will spend 40+ volunteer hours working for my Democratic candidates in 2012.

Howard Fineman, I think, was theorizing where this absurdity comes from. He and Keith were having a WTF moment that was underplayed and palpable.

My version is - So.....Congress.... you might, by taking a big chance, not be able to come back after a useless career and slip into a Washington Lobbyist position. Since you have no leadership, the House wants to see first if the Senate has any bold leadership on this before it's brought to a vote. They're useless and fucking scared.

Well, they're going to just have to be scared and do the right thing for the right reason. Maybe that's too hard for the ones that have completely lost touch with the American people.

You are so right - it's absurd. Someone will have to have an absurdity thread to celebrate the absolute inability to act on the the one issue they can act on.

Yeah, they just don't think they can control the message.

Well, if they don't take the initiative, they WON'T be able to control the message.

They need to grow up, is what they need.

This could be the cry of parents who spawned a demon child...

Flashing back (circa 1991)).. Wasn't Paul Tsongas correct in saying the single most important issue was campaign finance reform? Well, he was right, rest his soul.

This is what you get when "the children of the house" turn zombie, answerable only to a demon toy company from hell!

if they ate a hill of beans.

All they care about is themselves and their fucking jobs!

:sarcasm:

they go along for a reason. These 2 at least are not.

To me, they represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic party (to quote the late Senator Wellstone).

:kick:

Really. To not do this before the elections is perhaps the biggest political blunder in the last 50? 100 years?

the Bush tax cuts for the megawealthy have been allowed to expire, and not before. I'm fully expecting to sit out the 2012 election.

They tie themselves into knots coming up with transparently phony ways to "lose" on issue after issue. They aren't incompetent-- they're complicit.

There are some items on the supermarket shelf that are identical, but sold in different packages. I think Raisin Brand is one of them. The actual cereal you buy is the exact same thing, regardless of brand. It's coming out of the exact same production plant, in fact. The manufacturer sells it to different companies who do nothing but package it up for a specific audience and advertise it to a specific audience. Raisin Brand vs. Raisin Flakes.

That's our two political parties. They're selling the same thing, to different audiences.

They're in the pockets of Wall Street and the Multinational Corporations, particularly in the Senate. They'd rather lose the next election, and the one after that, than offend their base. The real one - $$$$$$$$$$.

Tax increase on small business??? Now, how did we get from income tax increases for millionaires to tax increases for small businesses? I thought we were talking about income tax? Income Tax is NOT on a business, any business. It is on an individual's income. Businesses are NOT incomes. They may provide an income but they are not levied taxes as if they were a person (unless the Dancing Supremes have weighed in on this).

So, when the RepubliCONS said tax increase on small businesses, I wondered what the hell they were talking about. I didn't know we were talking about business taxes. When did the discussion switch around?

RepubliCONS are such idiots and they momentarily confused me until I realized they were referring to the billionaire income tax give away.

I wonder how they keep their lies straight? They are so confusing.

to get in, only to discover his spare key in the lining of his jacket.

WTF else could there be a simpler solution to that we have not been told about...

the individual legislators.

the session will be over.

or, more likely, Complicit.

but since most of them lost anyhow it is time to tell them to be quiet.

when I was a young boy......I recall watching a movie about a country where Aristocrats basically owned and controlled everything and everyone. When the general population became tired of being treated like a tool...for the benefit of the Wealthy, they decided, enough was enough.

I think it was called the "French Revolution" or some other nonsense. Hollywood....they make anything believable.

I love all this posturing. No session of Congress can bind a subsequent session on tax matters.

The tax code represents the balance of power of social groups in a society. When Obama came into office without changing it, he completely nullified the impact of his election in favor of the Bush balance of power from years earlier.

It is really that simple.

Our party just dropped the ball.