Out of hope. I'm not seeing a way out for this country.

I'm not seeing a way out for this country.

In 2000, I knew BushCo would tank the economy, set social issues back by decades, and repay defense contractors by ignoring Clinton administration intel on the threats of terrorism, replaying old scripts about "ICBMS from rogue nations," and re-invading Iraq.

I knew what could happen. I just didn't realize how fast and how devastating it would be.

In 2004, I knew it was the last chance to get back on track. I cried the entire day after the election, knowing not only how screwed we were for the future, but how incredibly screwed we were that so many of our citizens are willing puppets, pulled by strings of fear, by people, organizations and interests they don't understand.

I knew the US was screwed at least through my lifetime. I just didn't realize it could be screwed beyond that.

In 2008, I didn't have much enthusiasm left. The urgency of keeping the house from catching fire in 2000, and the fervor to extinguish the fire in 2004, became by 2008 a resigned sigh. Our candidates and their campaigns seemed weak, but maybe there's just a difference of adrenalin between running in with a fire extinguisher and standing in the ashes saying, "It's okay -- have hope!" (The other side was doomed with, "I see no problem here.")

I knew the country was screwed in the long term. I just didn't realized it could go down, completely, in my lifetime.

I'm not one to wear "tinfoil hats," with one exception: the Bush family legacy in Paraguay. But that's another story (or not, who knows).

Simply from an economic standpoint, I don't see how this country can survive going forward, considering the current political landscape -- and by "political" I mean the branches of government, the monetary interests involved, the international scheme of things, and at home, the totally LOST population of willing idiots, utterly deluded by propaganda. (I hate Nazi comparisons, but since at least 2004, they are the greatest and most dangerous group of exploited people since the "Good Germans." Sorry!)

"Social issues" are just the leverage they pull. Some of us remember how these levers have been pulled since Vietnam at least, but they go back centuries. The way the country was founded, the role of slavery, and the civil war; the women's rights movement(s), the civil rights movement of the 1950s, the social upheaval of the boomer youth movement in the 1960s, and the schism about what "patriotism" means in the legacy of the Vietnam war... Today, divisions are prodded, deepened, and exploited to encompass religion, sexual orientation, nationality, and of course, political "leanings." ("The enemy within" revisited.)

But all of those combined couldn't take our country down. Ultimately, "It's the economy, stupid."

It's the fact that those social conflicts have been leveraged to enable what's happened to the US economically. (How many people even understand the differences between social and economic structures now -- socialism, communism, capitalism, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler, it's all the same, but "capitalism" is good and everything else is bad. The fact that capitalism has always been tempered by a balance of "socialism" in this country is lost on them.)

What is the way out of the country's current position? We manufacture virtually nothing; we own nothing but "trust and faith;" other countries own major parts of our existence, and multi-national corporations own the rest... With jobs outsourced, most all we do is "service" to each other on play money. The corporations that own us won't re-establish here unless or until our labor force is equivalent to what they have elsewhere, or about what migrant workers earn here.

Like other societies throughout history, I see us headed for a two-tiered system, but with this "melting pot" a conglomerate of corporations having tendrils stretching across the globe. Think of all the parts of our economy we don't own already.

So I've thought of moving elsewhere, thinking ahead -- but where? Canada, South America somewhere, maybe even Switzerland (not kidding)... I think it would be different though if we had young children and were looking ahead in that sense; instead, we are more at the point of looking at retirement. (Stinky will get in under the bar; I will be right at the cusp of the boomers who get screwed.)

I have lots more thoughts on the details of this, so I'll be posting more soon.

Meanwhile, if you see a way out of the decline I'm predicting, please tell me. I don't.

I really don't see this period of economic downturn as some presage to our country resembling some third-world oligarchy. There are plenty of forces still fighting all of those negative influences. We've always been outnumbered and our fight an uphill one . . . Where is it so much better to live? Is there really someplace where the politics and industry are accommodating, responsibly productive, and incorruptible?

I don't know where it'd be better to go -- where is a place on earth really self-sufficient?

To be honest, all I could think of is for California to secede!! Without the rest of the US, their agriculture and productivity and innovation could work -- but then there are the fault lines...!!

So for the rest of my own life? I don't know.

I dream of California.

This was a great state not so long ago. I guess theoretically it could be a great state again, given a major shift in consciousness on the part of some of the residents. I just don't see that happening, though.

I feel the elites will just move on to another country to rape and pillage
The next will be easier because it will not be as big as here
I do not know where one could go and feel somewhat safe

California is in deep trouble. Unemployment rate is higher than the national average and debt up to their eyeballs.

The stimulus and state aid money was keeping them afloat, now it is nearly gone and no more is coming.

If your really looking for a place to escape, maybe buy some land in the Dakota's or Montana and try to drop off the grid as much as possible. Perhaps make something you can sell and be as independent as possible. If a storm is indeed coming, perhaps that is the best way to ride it out.

Personally, I am not a doom and gloomer. I think the economy will slowly recover, Obama will be reelected, etc. Every generation thinks the end is near or that society is about to collapse, and rarely does it happen.

do not have. Heating homes is a huge problem everywhere else. In Southern California, we can get through a winter with very little heat, and summers are not bad. The problem here is that the soil is worthless clay and desert.

but found this (Wiki, with more than a couple older/outdated links on footnotes however)

California is the world's fifth largest supplier of food and agriculture commodities. Agriculture accounts for just slightly over 2% of California's $1.85 trillion gross state product. By way of comparison, California exported more agricultural products by air that year than 23 other states did by all modes of transport.

According to the California Department of Food and Agriculture, "California agriculture is nearly a $36.6 billion dollar industry that generates $100 billion in related economic activity." The state’s agricultural sales first exceeded $30 billion in 2004, making it more than twice the size of any other state's agriculture industry.

California is the leading dairy state. Milk is California's number one farm commodity. California's dairy industry generated $47 billion "in economic activity" in 2004 and employed over 400,000 people."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_California

California will turn back into a desert.

It's agriculture is not independent and was created at great cost elsewhere.

Well, except for the part of Washington that's across the Cascades.

you think exactly the same way I do. It's absolutely eerie.

N. CA has long wanted to become a separate state from S. CA....but that movement got nowhere, I guess. I lived in CA from 1977 to 1994. I miss it....but I don't miss the quakes.

My thought was to 'hide' up in Mendocino or Humboldt county with like-minded individuals.

I went through the exact same feelings about 2000, the 2004 election (I can remember Kerry throwing in the towel and me bawling like a baby), and 2008...I preferred HRC because she had some 'fight' in her and I believed she would be less inclined to throw women and children under the bus so quickly.

Now, I see no hope. I fear some hitlersque figure appearing when what we need is a FDR-type to fill what is becoming a power vacuum.

The only hope I have is that Mother Nature will come along and show the planet who has ALL THE POWER and shake the Greedy until their teeth rattle...a Comeuppance.

Thank you for your OP...Maybe Jerry Brown will secede! He was Gov when I moved to CA. He is a man with a heart and soul.

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euphemism of the day.

.......would be "better off" in. One of the few things this country is still number one in is the prison population. I for one am not looking for "utopia", just a goddamn place to live where I am treated like a fucking citizen, not like a piece of trash.

Look at US standing in health care as an example. We are #37. Education. Economy. The question should be asked ...what could be worse? Plus the fact that the current US govt. feels the need to bomb a country if they don't like the leaders.Not to mention torture. Overthrowing democratically elected presidents if they want things like a decent wage for it's citizens. i.e. Honduras. Doesn't make US too safe.Very similar to pre war Fascist Germany. Crazy.

And have been thinking the same. Canada or New Zealand seem like the best possibilities. Hubby is from Ireland but that country is f-ed up right now. Mostly I worry we'll be disliked for having come from the US who is currently seen as having created much of the economic mess.

Wish I could say I see a way out....

2000 -
1990.
1986.
1979...
1975
Guess you get my/the picture.
Sky is always falling.
Always, for someone somewhere.
So I
Just
Live

But only now am I seeing the point of no return.

I just don't see this country turning around - we've gone beyond the point of no return.

And understood...

that is the best advice
do what you can to affect your own sphere in the most positive ways you can
we can't run from globalism
every country on earth is under attack from the same forces.

Don't give up, vote...
Talk.
Speak.
Live your life and no one can ask for more.
If we go down it won't be with my voice.

Other countries of the world have their own problems and there's no way they want to see refugees from the U.S. when probably most of them think we are getting what we deserve.

Along with the irreversible climate change and nothing being done to address its disastrous consequence, there will be the crumbling and collapse of the American Empire. Hopefully I am old enough only to see the beginnings of it all without experiencing the total meltdown.

Isn't it ironic about the Boomers? We were supposed to be the generation who had it all, more than that our parents had. Turns out that our house was built on sand.

generation had it right, and I agree so much with you. "Isn't it ironic about the Boomers? We were supposed to be the generation who had it all, more than that our parents had. Turns out that our house was built on sand."

In a way, the fix was in...

Yes, it's about the American Empire -- empires fall from within. In this case, global influences were in play though, I think. It's even hard to tell where corporations start and leave off now, isn't it? That's what I see as the wave of the future. And it'll start with strings attached to the U.S. (IMHO)

the american empire is just a silly joke, do you folks even know what an empire is? there was never a day when we could conquer and accumulate an empire, i'm sorry, but guam and puerto rico do not an empire make

the british, now THEY had an empire, and yes, they let it go

the french, had an empire, and yes they eventually had to shed those colonies too

and you know what? the british and the french are doing just fine

we've had our overseas adventures but we've been able to conquer squat, other than maybe grenada, we couldn't even beat vietnam so please...let's let the myth of american empire go to bed

we NEVER had an empire, we were NEVER all that we bragged, and you know what? we were mostly just fine and we can be just fine again

That's way more than the Brits or the Romans had.

What folks like pitohui (I'm not picking on him/her, just his/her opinion!) don't realize is that the Powers That Be (in the George Carlin sense) know that old-fashioned empires are frowned upon, so they do the next best thing - have military bases everywhere. I wonder how right-wingers, or even most Liberals, would feel if there was a Canadian army base next door, a German marine corps one county over, and a French garrison upstate?

...our empire isn't overt like the French and British back in the day. It's covert, and the weapons used to enforce that empire are primarily economic and subtrefuge, backed by the world's largest military and an atomic weapons stockpile sufficient to end life on this planet many times over.

We're an empire.

... for example, we're probably the first empire ever, in which the majority of its citizens have lived (and died) without being aware they have been living in a de facto empire at least for the better part of half a century. We're probably also the fastest rising and collapsing empire ever (yay!).

We are also probably the empire with the best and most powerful propaganda machinery ever: marketing. For example, the average American will scoff at the notion of our country being considered an "empire" but will without hesitation have no problem naming the USA as a "superpower" within the same breath even. Ask said average American to define what "superpower" means, and watch the fun begin.

I don't subscribe to this whole doom and gloom, if anything... if one pays attention, it is very entertaining and exciting. Far better than any movie could ever be. In times like these, Ghandi usually helps: be the change you wish to see. Do not depend on a politician's promise for "change" it will only lead to disillusion.

Doom and gloom is counter productive, I don't meant to say that we should not experience it, all the contrary... if one is paying attention that is exactly one of the stages that should come to our minds. But we should use the experience to learn to isolate the root of the problem. Only then we will be able to enable a proper solution. The "fixing" part to me is absolutely exciting. Most people have no clue how much they can affect changes, which is why the whole "divide and conquer" and "mass control via apathy" bullshit works...

Would that it weren't because it would be less painful when it implodes, as it will (is) implode.

Oh we have an empire all right. It's just not not in the same form as the British one with colonies and viceroys and the like. We've been an empire since the late 1890's when we sent the navy and marines to back Samuel Dole's overthrow and takeover of Hawaii because he wanted no interference with his pineapple plantations. That continued on into Cub(battleship maine conveniently blown up in Havana harbor)and the Spanish American war which led to us occupying the former Spanish territory of the Phillipines for years, then Haiti, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Panama and on and on. We've since learned to do it more efficiently. After trumping up some reason to invade or intervene in sovereign nations (Battle of Tonkin anyone?), after the fighting is over we've learned to not fully occupy countries for years. Now we set up military bases with troops at the ready for deployment to protect "American Interests." That really means corporate interests. Now we have bases in 150 countries around the world with troops at the ready to intervene. This is America's empire because war has been very, very good to US Corporations. And it's nothing new. Check out this web site (http://www.scuttlebuttsmallchow.com/racket2.html) from a small book from the '30s by a former general who finally realized that war was a racket, a big time racket as corporations that get military contracts make, in some cases, hundreds of percent more in profit from war than they do in piece time, thus the incentive for war. And now they've gotten so greedy they want permanent war. Sound familiar? Iraq, Afghanistan . . . never ending. And it's not just the weapons manufacturers either. It's the companies that supply the military with everything from shoes to uniforms to laundry services to food (see Haliburton). And they want war all the time now because the profits are so obscene, like as high as 1300% more than in peace time. Oh, we've got an empire all right. It's about always being involved in fighting somewhere so the heads of these corporations get very, very, very rich.

The Romans permitted the nations under their control to have a lot of autonomy. You need only read the New Testament to understand that individual peoples or countries were given the illusion that they governed themselves to a fair extent. That is how our empire works. Do you seriously think that the Germans are free to go their own way without any concern for the US government's desires? We have a number of military bases in Germany.

Burrow in. Find a niche or make your own. If you can't survive here, it won't be any easier elsewhere.

For the most part I do that, but still can't help keeping up with politics and world dynamics and caring about what happens.

...military industrial congressional complex insists on permanent war, we are in a very bad place regardless of the economy.

imo the only way out is for people to stop allowing ourselves to be divided - a clever manipulation of corporations and elements in both parties - so that teabaggers, liberals and everyone else who is awake begin to stand TOGETHER for citizens, the country, and the planet.

We are the perfect soil for division -- a melting pot that never really "melted."

And at least half of this country are willfully deluded into believing all kinds of cockamamie tales, based on their own fears of other people in their own country!!

I don't see a chance of a unified social movement.

together against the real oppressors.

they think. Both are disgusted and need to find common ground. There are also a lot in the middle that are disgusted. We all need to put aside our differences and come together. Divisiveness is going to sink us all. The enemy is the corporate fascist state and the monopolized MSM and the MIC. But instead of coming together, we are propagandized to fight each other, and that keeps "them" winning and us divided.

...in their appreciation of Ron Paul. Even I, who can't believe a U.S. physician rejects evolution, appreciate his principled stance on the permanent wars and the Federal Reserve.

and he knows what happens to women when abortion is illegal. BUT....he is totally AND VEHEMENTLY ANTI-CHOICE!!!

In his little libertarian world, only one gender has FREEDOM....and the women work for free.

May he never get f*cked again...and viagra make him blind!

...to disregard others who can be allies in the citizens' fight against corporate power.

You work together when you can - against the wars, corporations, the Fed - and work separately on other issues.

I can't work with a person who regards me as a broodmare. Just ain't gonna happen. I'm a fucking human being.

By working with him, I give him power. Not in this lifetime.

...corporate rule - we're done as a democracy.

this democracy is toast. Patriarchy is something I fight against. I'm no one's tool.

I'll write more about this another time, but I think the national (read: "socialist") "US" is gone.

The idea of libertarians uniting with liberals to restore an "us" against corporatism doesn't work on the social level of the Role of Government.

If the common ground is, "This is Bad," it doesn't necessarily mean that there's common ground in what needs to be fixed.

The libertarian view is, "Yes, execute the federal government! Survival of the fittest! I got mine, and fuck you!" basically.

The liberal view is, "We are in this together. All for one and one for all. From each according to ability, to each according to need" (to phrase it a la Marx and Jesus, really).

The two don't mesh; they conflict.

Our view of commonality doesn't hold now. I'll write more later, but I think this also relates to a change in our sense of "duty" and national conscription, the Pledge of Allegiance and flag day and the draft and all that nationalist ("socialist") stuff. It served us as a unified nation, in fact.

Without all that, we're divided... and thus we fall from within.

I'm curious when these halcyon days of yore that you long for were.

Yeah, I know. Things could be a lot better.

I keep going back to the day Dukakis got in that tank...sigh.

I really liked Dukakis. And Paul Tsongas!! That was a time of lost innocence. ("What does the superficial stuff matter?" asked the naive young Sparkly.)

I also thought Mondale was absolutely correct, forthright, and honest...

Like that mattered.

innocence. I was so excited with the Mondale/Ferraro ticket. After we got Nixon to resign, I thought we could do anything!

Actually, 'Glee' does help. I actually feel a tad better on Tuesday knowing I get to watch some great singing, dancing, and choreography....but that's just me. In these days of decline, we gotta find little things that make the road less mean.

I live in Ohio...and with the past Election, we went from all Blue to all Red in four short years. Ohio is now referred to as Dumfukistan. And the Dumfukstanis are a mean and nasty people to be around. Believe me. I even dread driving to the grocery store. :scared:

I'm totally ready to :hide: but not in a state with extreme temperatures or with more Dumfukistanis.

and strike. General strike is a good idea but you have to understand that people will be killed. I don't think people are ready to lay their lives down just yet. But I don't see it being all that far off.

:patriot:

How will you be fighting?

(Not arguing -- I want your spirit!)

Sounds good.

Here is something to read that I found interesting - I think there's a lot against success in the US ...

The New American Oligarchy
Thursday 02 December 2010
by: Andy Kroll | TomDispatch | Op-Ed

http://www.truth-out.org/andy-kroll-the-new-american-oligarchy65597

"There is a war underway. I'm not talking about Washington’s bloody misadventures in Afghanistan and Iraq, but a war within our own borders. It’s a war fought on the airwaves, on television and radio and over the Internet, a war of words and images, of half-truth, innuendo, and raging lies. I'm talking about a political war, pitting liberals against conservatives, Democrats against Republicans. I'm talking about a spending war, fueled by stealthy front groups and deep-pocketed anonymous donors. It’s a war that's poised to topple what's left of American democracy."

More at - http://www.truth-out.org/andy-kroll-the-new-american-oligarchy65597

.. that gives leverage for the wider manipulation of power and resources, multinationally, as I see it.

The war of ideas just enables wide corporate monsters to pull the strings of our government, for their own benefit and growth.

(I confess I haven't read the article you linked, so that's just an initial response.)

good points/ideas along the lines you've been discussing. You know, I wondered about leaving too, but so many countries are OK one day and screwed up the next day that one never knows what they're getting into. Countries used to be stable, sort of, but anymore, as you mentioned, "The war of ideas just enables wide corporate monsters to pull the strings of our government, for their own benefit and growth." That also seems to be a global manifestation anymore.

We're well into the end game.

..... I believe all we can do is survive to fight another day. This war is almost over and the rich have won.

The best thing most of us can do is try to set up an economically sustainable situation given that the glory days of the 90s are not coming back. To consume only what you really need to, so save what you can, to be prepared for disruptions in food supplies and other necessities.

We ARE well into the end game, the ponzi shell game being played with the money press cannot go on very long.

Middle-age is perfect for that.

You can fight by boycotting all corporate products, from insurance to investments to just plain crap at Walmart.
You can have "blue flu" and under produce, downsize yourself and therefore reduce the taxes you pay. A kind of personal strike. You can work, march with others. You can even do direct action, risk arrest if that's where you are comfortable. Protest wherever war mongers attempt to appear respectable, like Casey Sheehan's heroic Aunt DeDe (yesterday's Greatest page).
Buy local, grow your own food. Run for local office, make your own community as progressive as you can.
You can do a little or a lot. See my sig links. Fighting probably isn't how you wanted to spend your retirement, but then again look at what's at stake. It might even turn out to be a more fun way to spend your remaining years than what you had in mind ;)
The thing is, if the USA continues on its neoliberal path there won't be anywhere safe enough to run to.

Common Security Clubs are groups of people who have come together to support each other in hard times by offering mutual aid, taking social action, and learning about the economic forces that impact their lives.

http://www.commonsecurityclubs.org



http://www.yesmagazine.org/blogs/common-security-clubs

I know that many Unitarian churches are facilitating these local clubs so that people will feel empowered, able to act, and not isolated in this time of change.

Regarding leaving the country: I just can't see how any other place will be unaffected by this disruption. And Canada is getting more picky.

that a bunch of empowered hippies

I'm going to give you the link to this organization called "International Living" which sends me frequent emails....The spouse and I have decided it's not for us, but could definitely be to the liking, maybe even to the "saving" of many others who are feeling so squeezed.

International Living give you a lot of information on MANY countries -- many south of the border, some even in less "flashy" areas of Europe such as southern Italy.

A number of these "south of the border" countries are supposedly taking in a LOT of expats, and some are particularlywelcoming to retirees...

They are sophisticated cities or charming little towns that are far less expensive to live in and feature cheap, if not free medical care, housing (nice housing in beach and mountain areas...Equador, Panama, Belize whose official language is English, etc)...Many of these places are advertisied as providing a wonderful lifestyle for about a third of what you would pay here...and as I said, some have actual programs in place to WELCOME retirees.

Here is the link..I hope you and others who are feeling like there's "no way out" will find that there is...http://internationalliving.com/

But would be considering those more if it were a matter of putting down roots for our offspring; as it is, we're past that stage.

However, we're considering such places for retirement, to make the most of whatever we may be left with, but that's IF we can even retire... Much of that depends on what happens here with SS and Medicare for Stinky.

your social security check will go where you go, but you will have to provide for your own medical care if you retire abroad

i'm just saying

i no longer believe that central america, at least costa rica and panama, are any cheaper than staying in the usa, if you account for all expenses

they are beautiful countries, mind, but they are not "cheap" these days

........My wife is already on Medicare (disability) and I am 64 right now. I hadn't even begun to look into SS and Medicare if moving overseas yet. Do you have a link or "for sure" info on Medicare?

My nephew and his wife have retired to an ex-pat community in Mexico, and are loving it. I have friends who own land in Costa Rica and are going to retire there asap. Either of those places would be good, according to the people I know who are there, but I worry about the drug cartels in Mexico.

...MLS listings in Canada as a pleasurable form of escapism.

:)

It sometimes helps to see yourself as a citizen of the earth first and if you can to let go of the geographic designation of country based on the happenstance of the imagined lines of country where you were born. We are all citizens of the earth and have little impact on what ever government happens to be the powers of our particular nation. It does put it in some perspective to accept we have little impact on such events and to turn then to concentrate on making our own lives as safe and as secure as we can and to live our lives actually living the values that we want our lives to represent...and to live them where we are with a hope to enlarge the circle to include our families and friends and community that is close. kind of like the old "grow where you are planted". This you can do and have an impact.

The Swiss make you invest an exorbitant amount of money in their banks, and then you can't touch it for 5 years or so while they use it. And forget about ever owning property there.

Besides that one...the rest of the countries that I have gone to:

South America, I can't think of one country there that is not in much worse shape than we are here...but by all means go down there and check it out...grass...greener, etc. I couldn't wait to leave Brazil, Chile, and Argentina every time I had to do some work down there.

Central America and Mexico is just downright so screwed up with not only the most stratified society that there is, but lately it has just become downright dangerous to live there. Costa Rica is OK...nice place to park a boat with the rest of the gringos and live.

Most of the Euros (Ireland, Greece, Spain, Italy, France) are having severe economic problems of their own that are just as bad, if not worse than here, but they have socialized medicine at least. England, Germany, Austria, are extremely expensive, and their tax rate is very high, so I hope you have a really good job lined up there if you want to relocate.

Japan...wayyyyyy more expensive than the USA, and they don't really do the immigration thing really well. Korea...forget it....horrible traffic, hot as hell in the summer, cold as a witches tit in the winter. Philippines...horrible traffic, pollution, open sewage lines that stink, and a crime rate that makes downtown Detroit looks like Disneyland.

Canada...nice, but....a hell, forget it; you sound like you need to check it all out on your own.

There are few countries on earth where it is easier to obtain a visa as an American than Switzerland!

I have relatives there temporarily and they say it is expensive.

Most European cities are more affordable than our East Coast cities, but compared to an ordinary American town they are catastrophically expensive.

unless you're fairly wealthy, as a person near retirement age, you won't be a desirable legal resident to canada, switzerland, etc. -- no country w. a social safety net is eager for a bunch of aging americans to move there (unless they can prove they're bringing a nice nest egg)

hell i was quizzed and had to prove i wasn't going to sneak into bolivia and somehow become a burden on THEIR economy (as if! i don't think they seriously thought i was going to overstay my visa in bolivia but they sure make you provide proof that you can afford to leave!)

there is nowhere to run, so you might as well fix your life where you stand

it's ok to feel weepy and without hope for a night, but get up in the morning and look ahead

we will fix this, because we have to, but 30 years of reagan/bush won't be fixed overnight

nobody said it was going to be easy

I really understand how you feel. I think part of the reason I've been in Alaska so long is because in many ways it's far removed from the Lower 48, almost like another country or part of Canada. I don't mind visiting down there in the contiguous United States, but I sure wouldn't want to live there.

I've voted in the past ten Presidential elections -- the Democratic ticket every time. However, even then -- I and all the rest of us have always known -- that the methodologies that we've used to gain and exercise political power was always flawed. Always.

However, now the process has been rendered obsolete. Both by the inherent corruption that was always within it (but which is now practiced unabashedly and openly).

And by the fact that we no longer control our vote - they do. Even an old totalitarian warhorse as Stalin realized: "it's the one's who do the counting, not the voting who possess the power." And with the preponderance of voting being done electronically now, -- particularly the kind of electronic voting which leaves no verifying paper trail -- those who control the votes are the ones who own the software code. Case closed. It doesn't have to be obviously stolen, just stolen enough.

So there are two basic ways which I can think of to address where I think we're headed. Prepare one's self as best you can and await the inevitable collapse. Or we can revolt. Both imply chaos as the primary result. But chaos is what one should expect from a people who are not civilized enough to avoid where we're headed in the first place.

- As Santayana warned: "those who ignore the lessons of the past are condemned to repeat it...."

how I think N. Korea is.
They are taught that their way and lifestyle is superior and they are belligerent to everyone else.
I know ( have been taught) that their despotic leader ensures their pathetic lifestyle.
Is corporatism going to be any better?

Is to leave, and take your money and tax dollars that pay for wars,
and corruption, and bailouts, with you ( the first 80k of foriegn $ is free from US tax)

We're 53, and moving to Canada next year as soon as we get
jobs. You could be there within 2 years.

I was born in Montreal and adopted out when I was a baby. My parents naturalized me as a U.S. citizen around age 4 or so. Do you happen to know if Canada gives dual citizenship in a case like mine? I'm 51 and have been considering moving there for years, especially with the way this country is these days. Any info or links you could provide would be greatly appreciated - merci!

I don't know if they would automatically grant it to you- go on the CIC website (Canadian Immigration), perhaps the info is there.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/

Good Luck!

and looked into it online. Hubby is a family doc and is 55. I have MS. We did not meet the criteria for moving there. They are fairly strict if you are older.

You do begin to lose points after age 55, but if your husband is a MD, there may be a NAFTA agreement to facilitate emigration for occupations that Canada has a shortage of. You get a ton of points for having a PHd. Having MS, on the other hand, could disqualify you, as you need to pass an immigration physical, although our immigration doctor said that there are only a few automatic exclusions, i.e. AIDS. Seriously, if you haven't pursued the points/NAFTA angle, you should, as Canada has a shortage of health care workers, especially MD's and RN's.

Good Luck!

He is 55 so perhaps because of that and my chronic illness we came in under. I am looking into dual citizenship, we can do Ireland or the UK which would open up some options just in case.

my wife and i are hoping my kids can take care of us when we can`t live on our own. we have written off any hope of living as well as our parents did.instead of looking forward to the rest of our life we just think how long we have and what it will be like.

we really do hate what is happening to our country.

But regionally speaking California, Washington State, New York, Boston etc are the greatest engines of innovation and entrepreneurship the world has ever known. Much of this country will probably sail further into the abyss of methed out religious insanity but for the productive regions of the country millions of people aren't just going to hang around praying and blaming gods wrath against homosexuals for their plight.

California for instance lost far more jobs to the collapse of defense and aerospace in the state than they have lost to outsourcing, it took a decade but people moved on.

across the entire developed world.

you can run, but you can't hide.


Poverty: A New Swiss Discovery (2002)

When Maria Diaz emigrated from Portugal to Switzerland 11 years ago, she was hoping to find a better world for herself and her infant daughter. But she soon discovered that life in Switzerland wasn't a box of chocolates. The 32-year-old Geneva office cleaner and single mom has been struggling to make ends meet on �2,000 a month, a meager wage in a place where her one bedroom apartment alone costs �800 a month.

"Some months, after buying food and paying rent, utilities and health insurance, I have �30 left in my pocket," says Diaz, who's looking for a second job. "That's not even enough to buy my daughter a pair of sneakers." Maria is part of Switzerland's growing population of working poor, people who barely manage to scrape by in one of the world's wealthiest nations.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,361597,00.html#ixzz172ywQ486



Poverty touches old and young in Switzerland (2009)

It can take as little as a broken pair of glasses to cause financial hardship for the 45,000 elderly people living on the poverty line in Switzerland.

For socially disadvantaged pre-schoolers, missing out on the chance to attend a play group can be the first of a chain of missed opportunities that will ultimately lead to poor employment prospects and low income for life.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss_news/Poverty_touches_old_and_young_in_Switzerland.html?cid=7841052



The wealthy are an international class & they're putting the screws to everyone.

It could be worse - you could live in Texas. LOL

I love the idea of moving out of the country. I was actually looking into some ex-pat communities in Mexico. But then I realized that a major part of the appeal was that I wanted people to ask me why. I wanted to be able to say "This country is the furthest thing from a 'Christian' country." Or "The health insurance industry is killing the economy, not to mention tens of thousands of people." Or "How does it make sense to deny unemployment benefits while insisting on tax cuts for the rich."

Then it hit me (yes, I'm a little slow) that I could say those things without having to move. I'm old. I'm entitled to be crotchety. And my new goal is to speak my mind.

It makes living in Texas a little more bearable.

...comes about for me at least once a day.

......thinking of becoming "expats", maybe Spain, Portugal or Ireland. We are already retired so the economies of any of those countries wouldn't effect us all that much. I have NEVER thought of leaving the US until 2004 with the Bush re-election. Now, I am just depressed AND it reminds me (at least a little) of Germany circa 1933. If the Republicans win all three branches of government in 2012, I believe then we will see the fascism that has been creeping up on us since 1980. An interesting side note about fascism, in Il the police can now search your car if you are pulled over after 10:30 at night and where I live they can do it on "weekends". Now tell me something, if you don't call that fascist, then what the fuck is?:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

I am very much afraid for Americans. Our country is being destroyed by the people who are also working to destroy our entire planet.

My husband and I fantasize about moving to New Zealand... but how could we leave behind our daughters and relatives and friends?

we could easily relocate to Estonia, because both my parents came from there and I can, if I want, claim Estonian citizenship. I speak fluent Estonian and have relatives there. However, Estonians live under the threat of another Russian takeover. I was there in June and saw that their economy, once so promising, has gone bad. There are no jobs. And I don't think I could stand living so far north during the long, dark winters. I already have seasonal depression. Still, it's a possibility if things get dire here, and if I became an Estonian citizen I also have the chance to live in other countries in the European Union.

If the USA is reduced to third world status, then there will be plenty of folks like you trying to find greener pastures. It'll probably get so bad that they'll start treating American immigrants the same way our country treats Mexicans now.

There really is no where to run. It doesn't even look like there is any way to make things better here. So many of our citizens have decided they would rather feed their minds with the comfortable lies of talk radio, right wing cable news, and right wing psuedo-news sites. Oh, don't forget the right wing preaching they inject into their brains on Sundays. We are outnumbered, out funded, and drowned out in a torrent of propaganda.

It's sad really. I'm still fairly young, so there's little chance that our collapse will occur after I shuffle off this mortal coil. It's crushing to see a civilization with so much potential for good crumble under the weight of its own greed, bigotry, and ignorance.

No, I'm not moving anywhere. There's really no where to go.

The political class is owned by the ruling class, how can hope reside there?

We the working class are on our own, in truth always have been. When we recognize that and act upon it we will find our strength.

it makes me sad also how the country has fallen, but then there are more of us than them.:hide:

I believe the bedrock problem is living on a credit card, giving all the money to the richest 1%, is the basis for pretty much all our problems. Even the 2nd biggest problem, the media being completely controlled by the richest 1%, was helped by those giveaways.

then it seemed the ME, TOO syndrome became popular with Democratic politicians - they wanted to be more like the republicans who were having great success with their simplified "no more taxes" slogans. The Democrats, rather than attempt to really educate voters, jumped on the sound bite/slogan/ bumper sticker as philosophy method that worked so well for the GOP - slogans with no real meaning, and no substance behind them, simple advertising gimmicks.
Our country has gone rapidly and far downhill since Reagan, and I also am appalled at the completeness of our government's capitulation to being run by and for the corporations - and I see no way out of this mess for the foreseeable future.

I am one who early on referred to Mr. Obama as a conservative, as similar to Nixon, and as a DINO, and I also believe he is the best we will see for many years to come.

The whole idea of the left in the USA seems to have been killed by the bought and paid for media whores..and by re-written history in our schools, again paid for by the extreme right.

OP, I am very sorry to have to agree with you, but I think we are beating a dead horse here in the USA, and I am very happy we never had any kids to raise in this shitty "culture".

mark

I didn't reproduce. Ditto on this shitty 'culture.'

about Panama? Nice climate, small country, friendly people, and the US Dollar is the currency. Also there are a ton of retiree benefits, including health insurance that are available to retirees at a pittance. You really should look into it.

...it's very apt, and in fact, being used around the world (especially in Europe) to describe our deluded population, as well.

Good post. K&R.

Canada has pretty liberal immigration laws.

I think about leaving every day and then I think about trying to educate people where I live about local sustainable economies.

I waffle back and forth and never get any where but I know that things are going to get bad here, really bad. The collapse of empire is never good but ours, I think, will be very destructive.

So, I have been working on getting rid of stuff and uncluttering my life as much as I can. I wish I thought I could sell my house but not in this market. I would like to get out in the country on a couple of acres and start putting in gardens. Here I have to garden in containers and had no luck with it this year at all. I seem to do fine with a plot of dirt but dirt in containers seems to defeat me.

When I think about leaving though, I think about Mexico or some place in S. America. If you have not seen Oliver Stone's new doc, South of the Border, do. It is on netflix. Most of S. America had thrown off U.S. influence and developed social democracies and I find that hopeful.

but as this empire implodes, we will become many villages, eking out a life, one very different from the one I was led to believe I would lead. We will get no help from the Federal Government and scant little from State governments. We will be turning to these chosen families and small communities because rugged individualism will have no part in the future of this country nor this world.

I can't even offer you a long term view of redemption, because as we fall, global climate change will end up on the back burner. We're already too late to avoid some of the more heinous parts of that and as we implode, that won't even be on our radar.

Wait, I just saw the glimmer of hope! It's not species centric, though. We're going to be part of the current mass extinction. Gaia at least deserves that, doesn't she?

Working on my PhD and almost all my professors are looking at ways to get out of the country. Some are privately giving the country 5 years before it really splinters into violence.

Not really sure waht to do myself. Learning French and making sure my passports are in order. Not buying ANYTHING anymore. Just Saving.

Woot my 1st post.

I went to Europe when the airfares dropped and saw that my values meshed more there than here with the culture of greed. But it's easier said than done. Though I've seen a lot of the world in trying.

Last week I was curious as to where I could live on Social Security. Panama and Uruguay were mentioned. But by the time I'm eligible those fucking plutocrats will have looted SS.

and its exploitation of nature and humanity -- animal life -- natural resources --

Capitalism is suicidal --

Having gone this far in misinforming the public, the elites have to press on and take

us all with them!

There are answers -- but not in doing more of what we've been doing.

That's my plan

That's the most cowardly way out I've ever seen. You're just going to leave us all here to fight the battle to regain our country?

If you love this country, STAND HERE AND FIGHT. It isn't over until every last person who believes in a Progressive America is dead.

I once felt exactly the way you feel. But then I realized that nothing good can come from me fleeing our problems here; they're just going to follow us around the world. This isn't like running from some third world African country into the US; if the US goes to hell, you're going to feel it anywhere you go.

So, really your only option is to stand with your progressive brothers and sisters right here in America and FIGHT IT, until we've won or each one of us is dead.

environment. This is not just a theory but has been proven time and again both by individuals and in larger segments of society in some parts of the world. In that light, may I share a quote?

"Where can we find the royal road to reformation and change? Emerson declared: 'Not he is great who can alter matter, but he who can alter my state of mind.' He strongly urged us to undergo an inner reformation. I want you to be assured that the challenge to which we set ourselves day after day—that of our human revolution—is the royal road to bringing about a reformation in our families, local regions and societies. An inner revolution is the most fundamental and at the same time the ultimate revolution for engendering change in all things." - Daisaku Ikeda

Nichiren Daishonin said enough people will catch on to this principle and we will have peace and prosperity for the entire planet, "as surely as an arrow aimed at the earth will reach its mark." So, please defeat your dispair and replace it with hope!