You know what? I guess I don't understand politics, or maybe I'm just fucking stupid, but

somehow, I don't see ANY way that having the Congress tell bush "Hey, go ahead and do any fucking thing you want to; we're not going to argue with you" does ANYTHING to stop this stupid fucking war.

I give the fuck up arguing about it, I really do. I guess we'll all just sit on our hands for another year and a half, and do our political strategizing and make excuses for Congress being gutless because, well, that's just the way politics works, and we have to be patient.

While Americans die.

While Iraqis die.

For another year and a half. At least. Oh, well, that's just the way politics works, so I shouldn't be angry about it anymore.

So I won't. I give up.

Redstone

when legislation for next year's Iraq funding comes up, when the benchmarks in this last one will come into play, when support for Bush and the war is even lower, when we game up and try again.

No alternative.

What a sad fucking excuse for a rallying call ...

an infuriated. I'm right there with you; no excuses, they caved, I'm pissed. The Dems should have tried to stop the madness by any means necessary, not fund it.

"Well, we'll burn that bridge before we cross it," so maybe people shouldn't listen to what Ihave to say.

Hey, somebody's gotta keep the flame of righteous anger burning. I guess that would be me.

Redstone

a Humvee taking fire.

I fucking HATE these people.

Whichever party they're in. Corporatists are fascists and amoral.

don't understand politicians. And up until yesterday, neither did I.

I, too, do not understand.

matter what Congress did or did not do, the fact is that as long as Bush is in office we will be in Iraq and BTW giving up , not voting or voting green is exactly what the pukes want. So if folks here want to aid and abet a permanent puke presidency go for it, seems the enemy knows us better then I thought or hoped.

Redstone

are just as corrupt as the enablers themselves.

"Ya gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em.

I don't understand why they didn't incl the Minimum Wage Hike. That would've given Busholin pause.

and we obviously have a whole shit load of neocon enablers in congress. :mad:

you're right - you must not.

It's the bloodiest ugliest game there is.. but that's the reality of where we're at right now.
Being angry and pissed off is fine BUT until 4 months goes by this is where we're at. There's nothing we can do now other than keep the pressure on to get the next step right.

But why is it that the Dems are always the bloodied ones? Why since 2000 (actually before, but so obvious in 2000) do the Dems always seem to be the ones to back down?

That's what is so disheartening to so many of us. Just because we may say we've had it doesn't mean we won't vote. Sheesh.

BTW, however, we are "where we're at right now" because many Dems have been such enablers of this regime going back to the theft 2000. And I'm now convinced that our votes don't matter because the counts are fixed. Remember Stalin's it's not who casts the votes but who counts them. The repukes got away with theft once and now it's in their hard drive, their play book. They'll view the 2006 midterms like Jimmy Carter's presidency ... an aberration. They have said repeatedly (and repetition of anything -- true or not -- in today's world becomes accepted fact) that Democrats are WEAK. And Democrats, for all their speechifying otherwise, keep on giving them fuel for that fire.

So, yeah, like Redstone, I've had it, too. And the best pressure is NO support... letting those in power know our displeasure and assuring them that we will do whatever it takes to see them LOSE their cushy 'power' as coddlers.

No support will just make the right more powerful - if that's what you want then go for it.

Pressure on leaders to buck up and fight harder or they're out is what needs to be done.

If anyone thinks anyone other than the Democrats can end the right's hold on this country they're naive. It IS a two party system and it's not going to change any time soon - the repukes know this and play on it all the time.. Democrats defecting to the greenies etc.. will be doing exactly what they want. EVer hear of divide and conquer? It's exactly what's happening and they win again when we choose to divide and not fight.

We want our elected officials to be tough and fight yet we whine, bitch and threaten to leave - they're only going to be as tough as we are.

and throw in a ...to the mutha.

have a sense of URGENCY: of LIVES AND TREASURE AND IRREPLACEABLE WORLD OPINION being squandered by an imbecilic child and his grasping enablers.

Do not ask what sense Congress has, for no one knows. But I'm beginning to suspect they only have a sense of Entitlement!

In the musical 1776, John Adams addresses the Deity:

"A second Flood, a simple famine, plagues of locusts everywhere,
Or a cataclysmic earthquake, I'd accept with some despair,
But no, you sent us Congress!

Good God, Sir, was that fair?"

And that will be deleted in ten seconds because it's "region bashing". :eyes:

recently about how weird New Hampshire is, and they didn't delete it (maybe because New Hampshire IS a pretty weird place...and that's a big part of its charm).

Redstone

It's okay to bash New Hampshire, and Massachusetts liberals, and west coast treehuggers, and latte drinking gun grabbers - it's another region we're not allowed to challenge. And that's where the problem lies. We cannot expect some of our Senators to have an easy time with these votes when 50% or more of their particular constituency are still Bushbots. That doesn't explain all the votes in this case, but it sure is the root of the problem.

some of our Senators to have an easy time with these votes when 50% or more of their particular constituency are still Bushbots."

You're right. In that sense, they are representing their constituency.

But what about morals and decency, what about political courage? That's where they lose me. I lived in Washington, DC for 40 years and know that the real problem is Potomac Fever -- power. They'll all do anything to get it and alas, anything to keep it.

In those red states, and the power the politicians want to keep will follow. The politician's motive doesn't matter, if the people can be empowered to make it clear the politician's power hangs in the balance.

And once again, the left wasted time on defunding when they should have been fighting for the more broadly popular timeline.

Make that very low on the list. Once they taste power they are loathe to give it up. Once they have power, Lord Acton's axiom kicks in.

The recent debates, bills, explanations, excuses, weren't about stopping the carnage, it was about setting themselves up for reelection in 2008, thereby achieving more power. They could care less about the nameless, faceless, individual Americans and Iraqis who suffer because of their greed for power.

They have to be kicked, shoved, threatened, abused, to do anything other than ensure their own election/reelection.

People tend to forget that politics, politicians, and political parties are a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.

They have just proven, again, that relying on "leaders" is an exercise in futility and irresponsibility.

passing the bill over and over, and letting bushy veto it.

And then take to the airwaves so the American public understands exactly WHO is "not supporting the troops," to the point where enough citizens beat the shit out of their Republican congresspeople that a veto override is possible.

And keep sending bush that bill. Over and over. Gridlock the fucking government over this issue. Stand up, and have some spine. Tell bushyboy that there really IS a "new Congress in town."

NOT back down. Stand and fight, and damn the torpedoes.

I'm not kidding. I really believe this.

But what do I know?

Redstone

And, never, ever, trust them to do the right thing just because it's right.

We hired them. It's up to us to make our employees, not our "heroes", do their goddam job. If they won't, it's up to us, the employers, to fire them and replace them with someone who will, at least, do a better job.

Unfortunately, the system itself is corrupt. What started out as a democracy has evolved into an oligarchy of kingmakers and their chosen servants, lubricated by money and media inspired celebrity.

I really like that quote.

Sometimes I think standing up for your beliefs and fighting the good fight is now considered 'quaint'...just like the Geneva Convention. Remember Gonzo calling it that? Bullies rule until they are called on their behavior...

Sometimes I get the feeling that there has been a big meeting somewhere behind very well sealed doors and all of the politicians have decided how this little 'theater' is going to play out....and the guy sitting at the head of the table is Mr. Corporate Zillionaire whose wealth goes back many generations...and he is the result of way too much inbreeding which has resulted in his keen love for evil.

On the plus side, Redstone....there are more of us than them....and I sense something in the air...We, The People may just have alot to say this summer! Viva la revolu.....!

I think I'm going with who is true and right instead of a "best bet" alternative.

I want an opposition party.

I'm also going with someone who is true and right.

The interesing question, is whether, in 2008, after we
Democrats have done nothing but screwed around for two
years, whether enough people will still be willing to
cast their lot with Democrats and *VOTE* for that theo-
retical Democratic president.

I'm no longer as sure as I was in January of this year.

Tesha

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

to see people die for NOTHING.

And to see the people who COULD change that, not change it.

Thanks.

Redstone

Amazingly my GOP Senator voted against the supplemental...probably not for the reasons I wanted but it shocked me anyway. I haven't been able to reach him, he's gone off somewhere for the holiday. (This is the guy I've known personally for 35 years)...
We can't give up though.

make excuses for gutless politicians.

And good on your Senator. Be sure to express your appreciation to him when you can.

Redstone

You are beginning to understand how little control we have in regards to our own country. Vote in any democrat you want, doesn't matter. Outsourcing will continue, health care wont change, education will still go up the war will continue....... Those who we vote in are controlled by corporations who dictate the rules.

Want change? Hit the streets, peacefully. VOTE GREEN. Congresses approval rating is the same as bush's.

Redstone

Welcome to DU
I agree with you -BTW:hi:

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Redstone

to them that they don't mind the death of more American soldiers. Because I KNOW that all the vets and Katrina victims would never accept money for the compromise the Democrats accepted in their name.

they are the flip side of the same coin. All any politician knows is $$$.

They played us like fiddles with their lame and limp 6 for 06 bullshit !

Oh all seemed fine and dandy since we finally won more seats , what we didn't know is who's weak useless ass who be sitting in those seats .

It's a sick joke , it's a crime to humanity , I use this word before it evaporates from the dictionary .

Their game is not our game nore our wish, hope or desire , they are not the ones dying or sitting out there un-employed or sitting in New Orleans or the miss gulf coast of being blown to red mist in Iraq or Afghanistan .

As people we have only one option left and as much as a unreal hope it may be , all americans need to hit the streets and fight for our rights and to take the money back , we either do this soon or almost everyone who is not wealthy will end up like those mentioned above , it is only a matter of time , we know this because it is well on the way to their end already .

I have no faith in politics is it represented today anymore .

Look back over recent history. Republicans take away from 'We The People' whenever they control anything. With Democrats in power, 'We The People' are only granted a stay, until the Republicans regain control.

Do the Democrats EVER reverse what the Republicans have taken from 'We The People,' when Democrats regain control?

Bottom line: Corporate America has merged with the United States Government, and 'We The People' are only subjects to that Corporate Government Store to be exploited and enslaved.

leaves you so stunned you are paralyzed with stupor.

Redstone

In the reality based community giving someone exactly what s/he wants is called - giving someone exactly what s/he wants. And voting to find a war is called - voting to fund a war. The Dems have now joined the "we make our own reality" crew, where their votes to fund a war are called "making it someone else's war" and "living to fight another day" - although it is not they who are in any danger of dying in Iraq. At least, in the real world. Damn, there I go - forgetting to stick with the program too.

the "political expediency" universe and explain it to us "reality-based" types very well.

And don't think for one second that I don't appreciate it. Great post.

Redstone

Here we are. Me too Redstone, I don't get it either.

Infuriating, even.

But ultimately, what choice do we have but to continue to support Dems, even when they screw up as they have in this instance? (Insert frustrated, annoyed, angry, smiley face thing here)

and yet what's the alternative?

Meanwhile, people, both American and Iraqi (many of them CHILDREN) continue to die.

For nothing.

Redstone

It's ugly, maddening, and anger inspiring, and utterly depressing when those we elected turn gutless when we expect much, much more of them, and at the same time, we have no better alternatives.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Wait, scratch that. I don't know whether to cry or cry harder.

....it all comes down to MONEY....until we can seperate wealth/corporations from our elections and government, until we invent a new NON-MONEY based Left-Wing ideology to inspire and motivate the masses, little will change....

....the corporatist have spent a lot of time and money putting us in check....

Because I don't get it either. And I don't want to.

"My heart is like a ship upon the sea.
I am easily moved. Scolding will not improve me."

keep reminding those people in Washington that we did NOT elect them to see them cave in to bushyboy...

Any suggestions would be appreciated, because I'm fresh out of ideas.

Redstone

Often enough I lie awake at night wondering "What can we do?" in hopes of snatching the answer out of thin air. But all I'm left with now is bitter rage at this cynical betrayal and -- well, many other negative sentiments about the future that are of no use to anyone.

But hopeless as I feel, I'm not giving up. Ever. That's one thing the neo-fascists will never take from us, and why they'll never really win.

of a government that has placed it's people very well in order to evade having to face justice for their crimes. I believe that people are feeling so lost that they put all thier trust in the dems when they supposedly gained somewhat control. The truth is they didn't but they are trying, I think the people need to act more, we are facing a government that is not unlike and closely resembling communist Russia where it took an actual rising up of the common men to attempt to gain some control back...

I think the dems are getting a bad rap and the blame is not being put where it should be....

Those in this administration sneer and laugh at those that attempt to gain control once again, the people need to stand behind the dem party now more than ever, this constant bashing of them is simply giving this administration a good laugh at this country's average citizen.

I think we could start by honestly putting the blame where it trully lies and quit allowing the media and talking heads to once again frame the issue which is what they are all doing and very easily...

I'm kind of suprised so many people are still so easily manipulated by all this propaganda in order to lessen the dems slight advantage they have achieved against incredible odds.

Noam Chomsky gets more right every single day.

People who expected the Democratic party to be our "savior" once they were elected were tragically naive. The only thing Dem. leadership cares about is the same thing any political group cares about -- staying in power.

They don't think that the anti-war crowd carry enough weight to matter. They think that they would look bad if they continued to stall "fund to support our troops." So they cave.

My post was describing the actions the chose to take based on the fact that they listen to the talking heads.

I didn't say that people who are strongly anti way literally don't carry enough weight. I said, that's what they THINK, which is why they won't take a stronger stance against the war. They don't want to do anything that might hurt their chances in 2008 - i.e. they are primarily concerned with staying in power, not doing what is right, and they believe that forcing impeachment, or continuing to indefinitely stall funding for troops would backfire on them and make them vulnerable.

That's why they don't do it.

It's pretty hard to argue with that claim, since you can find plenty of democratic party and congressional leadership sources quoted as saying almost precisely that.

except the "I give up" ... Al was on Charlie Rose tonight with his new book, The Assault on Reason & Oddly enough, your very question came up.

1) The book is about why America is not furious with the way the Government conducts business, as well as News, feedback, lobbying, money and accountability. If I understood the point of the book, this Blog & your comments are exactly the point, so Al would be pleased.

2) Now to your question - Bush vetoed the first honest effort to force an end to Iraq as the voters demanded last election, but could not over-ride the veto. The compromise was the short funding & to bring up this issue in 4 months when they feel they can actually stop it with more support then - Al said this is the reality of the rule of law & politics, otherwise our system means nothing.

Summary - The point of the show & book is "How do we change things to prevent this type of Government we have now, and the Iraq war from ever occurring again, regardless of party?"

NEVER GIVE UP!

The US intervention in Iraq is doomed to failure. When our troops are brought home (as eventually they must) the aftermath is likely to be very ugly -- both in Iraq and in American politics. BLAME will be big part of the game, for decades to come.

Simply put, the Democratic Party does not want to take ownership of this war, and therefore the blame. You and I know this war belongs to the Bush/Cheney neocons, but consider this scenario:

The Democratic congress, against White House protests, forces a troop withdrawal. Iraq devolves into prolonged sectarian violence worse than ever, the jihadist movement thrives amid the chaos, and this result is played up as a major "defeat" for the United States.

By forcing the troop withdrawal, Democrats are incessantly blamed for this result.

I don't know for sure what the post-withdrawal scenario will be and I certainly don't think giving Bush what he wants will prevent it, but you have to admit the above scenario is a real possibility.

Iraq is and will likely continue to be a disaster. The Democrats don't want to be held responsible for it.

....as part of the solution instead of as part of the problem.

repeat: the main problem is seeing the democrats as part of the solution instead of as part of the problem.

the progressive left must act independently of the democratic party with no illusions about being saved by them. we should always attempt to force the dems to the left but remember that is the only way they will go left. the progressive indivduals within the democratic party are not capable of moving the party significantly to the left.

this leaves us with a tall order. i say the big tent hypothesis has been thoroughly discredited. what next? third party? where is our leverage?

Redstone. I hear ya and agree with ya.

and garner more support, perhaps, to work on the actual funding bill later this year.

WE don't have the votes to do what's right, not yet. At some point those who are part of the reality community have to stop and recoup and think about strategy. We are almost there. The war isn't going to get any better and the people aren't going to get LESS antiwar.

I know it's frustrating because we expected so much more. But as in romance, expectations are imaginary things that are easily busted by carnal necessities.

We haven't spent all our political capital yet. Let's work on getting more.

"the people aren't going to get LESS antiwar."

So let's just sit on our hands, as I said, and hope that we have some "political capital" to spend while "people don't get less antiwar."

Let's take the coward's way out, and "recoup and think about strategy" while Americans die. And while Iraqis die.

Tell me something, if you would: What exactly do you tell the Iraqi mother of the next four-year-old child who dies from this war, why it was so important that her baby should die because we had to "recoup and think about strategy?"

What do you tell that mother?

Redstone

that the "democrats" want the illegal occupation of Iraq to continue every bit as much as the repuke crime organization does.

They've voted for it at every turn.

Let's not forget that the original bill, with "timelines," was so weak that it would have changed nothing and would not even have pretended to slow the war until September of next year. Even that "milestone" in the timeline had so many vague loopholes that it would have been unenforceable. The "timelines" issue just allowed king george to piss on all the unitary executive trees in sight to prove that his power is not limited by the legislature. And faced with the bouquet of bush micturition in the air, the brave, brave "democrats" boldly ran away.

You're dead on.