The Good Fight

“All compromise is based on give and take, but there can be no give and take on fundamentals. All compromise on fundamentals is a surrender, for it is all give and no take.”
Mahatma Gandhi




There has been spirited discussion on the Democratic Underground today, regarding President Barack Obama and the “tax cuts” for the filthy rich. There seem to be a few general groupings of opinions.

First, there are those who are expressing outrage. Of these, there are those who never really cared for candidate Obama, even if they voted for him in the general election; and next, the largest group, who really believed in his message of “hope and change,” but who have come to feel betrayed by the President's actions in office.

Next, there are those advocating continued support for President Obama. The majority of these people, while they do not approve of the tax policy, are convinced that Barack Obama is trying to do the best he can. And a tiny minority appear to be motivated by self-interest.

I endorsed Senator Obama's candidacy in January, 2008, and invested more time and money in his campaign that I have for any politician. From the beginning, I noted that I strongly disagreed with his stated beliefs regarding the US military involvement in Afghanistan. I can absolutely support a politician, even if I am convinced he/she is wrong on something as important as that. However, I was clear that I would work to promote an anti-war agenda, when Obama became President.

For about two years, I've been vocal about both the things I agree with President Obama on, and those things I disagree with him on. During this time, I have had a significant number of Obama supporters on this forum express disappointment in my being critical of the President. One old friend has made some nasty, insulting comments, apparently because I do not meet her demands for “purity” in my support for a democratic president. During this same period of time, I do not recall a single forum member who is opposed to President Obama attacking me for expressing my support for any of his policies that I favor.

I've said these things tonight, because I want to say something important …..at least, I think it is important ….to every forum member who is uncomfortable with “tax cuts” for the obscenely wealthy. The truth is that this policy is so expensive, that it will handcuff President Obama, and keep him from being able to do any of the other important domestic programs that he may be inclined to attempt. This country simply cannot afford to finance the wars and reward the immoral greed of the top 2% of America's richest individuals and families, and still have a middle class.

Concerned people should make a point tomorrow of calling both of their Senators, and every member of the House of Representatives from their state, as well as the White House, and expressing their dislike of this policy.

I will be making sure to make clear that I will not be donating a penny, making a single phone call, or investing a second volunteering for any democrat who does not make a real fight on this issue.

K&R

Rec'd, of course.

Of course, no surprise there :)

K&R

"I will be making sure to make clear that I will not be donating a penny, making a single phone call, or investing a second volunteering for any democrat who does not make a real fight on this issue."

--Called Bernie Sanders and Kay Hagan (my senator) today - Sanders will filibuster if necessary and Hagan's guy who answered the phone says she does not support the bill and at this point will likely not vote for it.

Now, if everyone here would take up your suggestion, we might make a small impact.

-PLA

like you I donated to this man's campaign and worked on it. I understood that we were not electing a flaming liberal, all misrepresentations from the right to the contrary.

But this has been a final straw. In my case I sent the T-SHIRT, still pristine, that we got from the campaign. We were going to save it for nephews since this was a historic moment. It still is a historic moment. I also sent them a mug, and a letter explaining my displeasure at this.

I tried calling today, but simply could not get through... to either the WH, my Senators or my critter.

Reality is that come 2012 I will not do any of the stuff I did in 2008.

I will vote, not that it matters, but I will vote.

I have also encouraged people who have memorabilia to send it to the White House... a few... meh, many... it should start to make a point... and that is that people are PISSED.

I also realize that this letter is about 1000 people.... there is an actual math for how to count these things...

Oh and I know that some folks cannot stand any criticism.... to them I only have the worlds of TR...

TR on criticism. ... To announce that there must be no criticism of the president... is morally treasonable to the American public.

to hear if you receive any response.

-PLA

His body language today reflects that he is pissed at us little people... it was an odd moment. I mean my hubby said it... Bush, just that he can articulate worlds and he walked out. Boy I have not seen him that pissed at a politician EVER.

And he is a good judge...

On edit post with letter.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9716741

across this video and while I watched it several times in 2008, this time I was sad. I wondered if Obama had seen it recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghSJsEVf0pU

I've been calling about this issue and I'm going to continue to call. This morning the staffers of each of my congress critters stated that they were opposed to extending tax cuts to the wealthy, but none of them knew where their critter stood on filibustering the bill. I heard on Keith's show that they are currently caucusing, so my guess is that by morning they should know where they stand--and so will we.

There is a table with 1000 loves of bread. And 1000 people in a room.

One guy says he wants 900 of the loves, or he will start hurting people.

You say you wont help, but will not stop him, except to say it is wrong, and ask for explanation.

He says you have to actually help him, since it is not about the bread, it is about you submitting to him.



At that point I would stand in front of him if I could, and not help him.


He would then say I have no feeling and do not care about people. Trying to turn the violence he does onto me to get me to submit to him.

Seen it many times.

if you help what you know is wrong, then in the long run things only get worse and more get hurt.

While I have never had much to hope for in President Obama, I have always hoped that he would do what was in the best interests of this country. And, while I am not an economic expert, or expert in foreign policy, I am a very concerned and, for the most part, well informed citizen.

The path that the president has taken is one that, I believe he feels is the path of least resistance to re-election. I see no courage in the choices he has made, and truly believe that, not only will those choices lead us further down a path toward elimination of much needed safety nets for the less fortunate, but bankruptcy, foreign policy failure and a certain re-election defeat.

In short, I believe that he is getting very bad advice, is in over his head, or is in league with corporate interests. Since I believe that he is not a stupid man, my money is on the belief that he is in league with corporate interests.

Where does that leave us?

. . . and tell them how you feel about the policy they might be offered to vote on. I sense a great deal of hesitancy on the part of normally loyal legislators about the compromise the President achieved with republicans. The fact that there's no major embrace by the leadership today means there's at least a window to have our concerns heard.

I can't tell whether legislators are prepared to bolt on this agreement. I do think the President made a strong case for preserving the middle-class tax cuts. Legislators will likely feel challenged to confront the dilemma Pres. Obama described where he couldn't countenance letting the middle class cuts expire along with the rest of them.

It wasn't clear from the last vote in the House what Democrats felt about a possible compromise, so it'll be interesting to watch them. It'll be interesting to see how proponents in Congress want to pay for these cuts - both parties. This is more of a pivotal moment than a done deal, in my view, because of the wild card of the House.

Highly recommended. Thank you, H20 Man.

Take heed Mr. President, when dismissing the left.

And I will make those calls. I hope millions do.

You pack a powerful punch.

Thanks for writing so thoughtfully what many of us feel.

groups, etc.? Or should I even give that up after this display of compromise? Is 2014 a compromise? Is Obama a bookmark between chapters of Republican evil?

as usual.

Rec

Wrote to my congressman earlier today. I will contact my Senators tomorrow.

for your comments thus far.

"The truth is that this policy is so expensive, that it will handcuff President Obama, and keep him from being able to do any of the other important domestic programs that he may be inclined to attempt. This country simply cannot afford to finance the wars and reward the immoral greed of the top 2% of America's richest individuals and families, and still have a middle class."

Your words to Barack Obama's ears.

letter to the First Lady. I prefer to send one through the mail, rather than simply e-mail. And I believe that a letter campaign directed at her is far more likely to be effective, in the sense of being brought to her attention.

People our age remember when the investment in Vietnam drained the resources that should have been put into the Great Society. It is unsettling to see it happening on an even larger scale today.

When you said "handcuffs" you might add leg irons, too.

As always, I really enjoy your writing. :)

I was thinking of writing her too and wondering why, but you have inspired me. Thanks for reminding us again about the huge gaping hole Vietnam left in our future, it cost us so much.
And thanks for the beautiful post,

the best way to get at me would be through my wife. It is easy to tell people you disagree with to STFU, but most will not do that to their spouse. Convince my wife that something is good, and she will change my stubborn ass. She takes stubborn to a whole other level :)

I have so much to say to the poor person who will answer Senator-elect Kirk's phone, I hope they don't hang up on me. It's not even the start of the new Congress and I have called his office 2x already this week.

Thank you for the very rational, well-reasoned response to the tax cut compromise. Great essay as usual. Very much appreciated.

I hope that you will consider writing a letter to the First Lady, also.

to the President. Will get one out to the First Lady as well. Thanks for continuing to post here on DU. I may not respond to all your threads but I do read them and know that others do too.

Wishing you well and good health this holiday!

containing harmful things, the snail mail to the whiteHouse takes weeks. By then this issue will be (sadly) history.



I applaud your writing in the OP. Thanks.

fold it as if it were going into the envelope, but simply either staple or tape it shut. Address, stamp, and mail. It passes through much quicker that way.

This concept was presented by another DUer years ago. I wish I could remember who! I am not trying to take credit for another person's good idea. But I have always remembered it.

to be checked. That's what I've heard.

Good luck. It's worth doing anyway, or in addition.

thanks again for the discussion.

:kick:

and Rec.

It's good to be reminded now and then that at least some of the Obama strong supporters here are genuine people capable of complex political positions and not political operatives who have an "answer" for every curious move. I respect those who largely support Obama, but who can feel strong disagreement when they feel at odds with his decisions. I suspect that this "friend" that started attacking you for your criticism is not approaching this site in good faith.

Unfortunately, the best hope for this country's improved financial condition and domestic stability is for Congress to kill the compromise bill.

I can still support any positive measures the President may accomplish between now and 2012 while still acknowledging that, based upon his campaign promises, he has failed not only the people who voted for him, but the nation as a whole.

His judgment is clearly compromise, his advising is extremely poor, and he appears to no longer have an appetite for politics, which a President is required to have along with a job of governance.

He is clearly not what we wanted as a leader and the left is clearly not who he wants as a base.

Unfortunately, we will have to coexist as best as we can until a better opportunity comes along.

It's only fair they get the rest from here on out.

Hey! It's legal. They paid for it.



Baron de Rothschild and Prescott Bush,
sharing a moment together.*

It is a good fight, H20 Man.
And as on every card: There are winners and there are losers.
And choosing which side to be on is the difference between the GOP and the Democrats.
The Democratic Party to which I ascribe believes that all people are created equal and all deserve equal treatment under the law.
Everyone. As in "We're all in this together" Good Fight and not moving to the right, to be with those enjoying the most "trickle-down."
No, the Democrats I know and admire think like the great mind who said: "Until their suffering ends, mine will not cease."

Why our current leadership finds this strange is beyond my understanding.

I don't agree with you. But I do respect you and understand what you are saying.

I cannot, in good faith, threaten not to work to support and elect Democrats in future elections in good faith.

Because to do nothing, or to openly oppose a Democratic candidate is akin to working FOR a republican, and we have too many of them to begin with imo.

Like you, I despise war- and greed- and selfishness. The republican party doesn't.

I've happily recommended your post because what you say is valid and very well thought out. Thank you for encouraging me to think.

peace~

They don't have to be far-left. I like Jerry Brown. He is going to have to do a lot of difficult things, not all of which I will like. But he has a humility and an understanding of those of us who lead simple lives on little money, and he will be fair.

Obama at this point has completely abandoned fairness.

That shows in the way he handled the foreclosure crisis. Nothing or next to nothing has been done to help the ordinary folks who have lost their homes and been forced into bankruptcy. All the assistance went to the banks. They are sitting on it like pigs in their own urine and feces.

And Obama looks the other way.

It is also possible to leave the box blank. At this point, I hope for a legitimate primary challenger to President Obama.

~

but it really eats at me when you use post-partisanship to be partisan... it's the Obama way. And kind of ironic.

Regardless, may you be as successful as he.

mostly he will trying to keep the domestic programs we have from eroding. Unless you know something I don't (and you very well might). Point two: if this deal gets shot down in its entirety and there's a stalemate that goes beyond this session of Congress, what better is going to come along? And what happens to DREAM, DADT and START? I am not totally opposed to letting the cuts expire and letting the chips fall where they may, because I don't like the tax cut for the wealthy either. I don't like our side to lose. But I also am not into cutting off the nose to spite the face. And a fight can be emotionally satisfying for the politically active, but what does it do for the folks who don't give a rip about political battles, but they find their UE benefits have run out and their taxes have gone up?

The Teabaggers are sworn not to do it.

If Obama's strategy worked and we got cooperation from the right, then I would support it. But it is not working. It was doomed from the start.

Unemployment benefits are going to run out. I don't see unemployed people in the streets. That is what it will take to make the issue of unemployment real to people who live in places like LA's westside, areas of Pasadena and Silicon Valley in northern California.

The unemployed need to march in the streets in the wealthy areas of town. That is the only way to make their plight real to the comfortable folks who are in the wealthy enclaves.

And they have to get permits and organize. So far, the unemployed have not organized themselves in any serious way from what I can see. They seem to each think that their struggle to get a job is an anomaly. It isn't. So many people are unemployed.

but you always made your case, and I don't recall it ever being personal.

I will be calling Harry and I might even call Ensign, though it is surely a waste of time.

Also, I think that this quote, "All compromise on fundamentals is a surrender, for it is all give and no take" was perfect, and something that the genius seems to have forgotten.

I am still mystified at some of the slack you give/gave this man, but at the end of the day I know you are one of the good guys.

:applause:

:(

so when that strategy, which assumes a responsive government, fails, what then?

If one only stands on politics and not principles, they stand on quick sand.

for the printer .... stamps and envelopes .... plenty of paper.

I will be starting my phone calls at 9 am/est. I'm also going to e-mail. But I think it is very, very important to mail letters to Washington.

In each letter, I will inform the person that I'm writing to that I will also be writing "lettres-to-the-editors" of my list of local/regional newspapers. Included in my LTTEs will be their response, or lack thereof. I will also provide my phone number, and request the person that I am writing to call me, as a "form letter" authored by an aide is a shallow response.

As I've noted in this thread, I intend to write to Michelle Obama, as I believe she is the only person close to President Obama who might understand the significance of this latest spineless act, and be willing to tell her husband the consequences of his cowardice in the context of grass roots support.

Thank you to everyone who is taking similar steps.

Thanks for the thread, H2O Man.

That expresses exactly what I am feeling. We have stopped compromising and have turned to surrendering.

K&R


"If we don't fight hard enough for the things we stand for,
at some point we have to recognize that we don't really stand for them."
--- Paul Wellstone

just kidding :hi: Right there with you, Dihydrogen Monoxide.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9717729&mesg_id=9724797

:yourock:

-Laelth

Of course, the choice must be made: Do we lower our deficit, gradually pay down debts or do we lower taxes. We cannot do both.

The Republicans want both. Instead of forcing the Republicans to face the fact that their positions on debt and taxes are inconsistent, Obama is blinding himself to the inconsistency.

That is Obama's big mistake.

Just wait, if the tax cuts pass, the Republicans will refuse to raise the debt ceiling and then the government will be brought to a standstill. The Republicans are outmaneuvering the president.

I was an Edwards supporter but got solidly behind Obama when the time came. I volunteered, contributed, wrote letters of support, posted signs. I continued supporting him until I no longer could in good conscience.

Like you, I have my own line in the sand, one created after almost seven decades of living. I`ve had enough time to decide what is truly important so I won`t spend one minute or one nickel on any Democrat that does not stand up and fight for the people out there that need help the most. I won`t support a pretend fight or I`ll give you whatever you want behind closed doors fight or I`ll say one thing and do another fight. I`m done with that. D-O-N-E. You won`t be hearing any excuse-making from me.

I can look anywhere in my neighborhood and see desperate, HARD-WORKING people. These folks deserve more than to stare at ineffectual Washington "leaders" with tans acquired at their favorite Country Club getaway while more and more Americans go under. I plan to make good use of my telephone, my pen, my keyboard.....and my vote.

Many of us have holes in our tongues from biting it to keep from saying "I told you so."

We understand the pain of feeling betrayed, and we don't wish to rub salt in the considerable wounds.

Rather than being brushed off as derelicts, it would be nice to have our restraint acknowledged.

now pick up those pom-poms, Bobbo :)

:yourock: :pals:

:applause:

Like many here, I devoted more time and energy to getting Obama elected than ever. I also REALLY REALLY believed his promise of change although I was pretty sure he wouldn't do everything he said. I started doubting him early on when Gates, Summers, Geithner, etc were on board, especially Gates.

Here's what I THINK happened though. When he took office, the PTB told him that all that change crap was fine for running on, but here's how we do things. back in the 60s, we had this liberal changey dude and if you don't want to wind up like him and his liberal brother, play the game or else. That's a hard pill to swallow but what else can explain the total 180 between promises and actions?

This was the last straw for me as well. The American people better wake the fuck up or we are doomed to be another 3rd world nation. Eat the rich~

I thought Obama was really going to make a positive difference. As good a person as I think he is, his presidency has shown to me that there must be an insurmountable amount of corporate pressure in these times that even a good man like Obama can't overcome.

I agree with a poster whose OP I read earlier today theorized that when Obama "scolded" the left during his press conference, he was, in effect, appeasing the corporate bosses.

As for the criticism you've gotten on DU on the subject of Obama, open-mindedness & the ability to "agree to disagree" in a civil manner is what distinguishes the mature, educated minds. As tactful as you always are, there should be no reason for anyone to criticize you.

I try to be decent, although I am fully aware that I am grumpy and obnoxious at times. Also, three of my four "kids" like to post on this forum. If I ever sound really intelligent, for example, it's my daughter writing. (grin) One son has made note of when he uses "H2O Man"; the other son is less inclined (on edit: to be polite).

If we had a low unemployment rate in this country I wonder if there would have been more wiggle room to cut the tax cuts. Personally I want to see all the Bush tax cuts taken out and we go back to Clinton Era Taxes.

how many "signing statements" Obama has made since he took office?

It is okay to disagree with the President. But to bash and his character is childish. Thank you for stating your point with simple honesty. That works. Not name calling of our Leader or telling him to go F--k himself. I like your response because you have thought of a plan of ACTION against those in Congress who will support the Bush Tax Cuts.But I do want to make you aware that the number of jobs lost during the recession are the same number that will be losing unemployment benefits. This will be a hard pill for them to swallow.Just like the loss of jobs starting in the thousands reaching the hundred thousands by the time the President took office. Now when we call we should insist they find a way to extend unemployment benefits for those who are unemployed. Because I think its a raw deal when you can pay into unemployment insurance for twenty-five years while you are working but as soon as you need it for a certain period of time Republicans act as if they are giving you their money out their personal billfold something many of us have not seen in a while something that will go into a billfold.

My wife and I are going to earn 250 thousand dollars this year. Strangely while in a recession she and I have each had career years. We are fortunate enough not to work in the the industries that have been affected by the recession the most such as housing, construction and manufacturing. We work in, shall we say, media services, which is booming in the United States. I don't think the recession has anything to do with helping our industry, because it's really been booming for about 10 years now.

Back to our filthy rich status. I think there are some points lost in the fray of this all-out class war raging in our national discourse.

The first is relativity. While my wife and I make what we make , we live completely ordinary American lives. We live in a modest starter home about 1200 square feet that we bought in 2008 and promptly lost 15 percent of its value in one year. Where we live, a modest starter home starts at over 350 thousand dollars. We have a baby and we pay for our health and life insurance. We have two cars. One paid off and the other making payments. We live in the suburbs of a large American city as the its too expensive to live in-town and the eventual private school costs. We own a small business. Well, she owns a small business (after she was laid off from a larger media company) and I'm an independent contractor and a college dropout. Are we the not poster family for obscenity?

The second is sadly the argument for of the end of the American Dream that is consequence to class warfare.
No where is anyone advocating for upward mobility. All I hear is hate the rich. Hate the wealthy. They have no heart. They have no idea what real life is. But, frankly I only hear that from rich people in the news; rich people in the Congress and what I tells me is I will never be rich. I will never move up. Because not only do I not possess the means and skills to move up, but why the hell would I want to join those stinking filthy bastards.

But for some reason, I don't know, just call me American, but that don't jive with me.

I don't feel the least bit bad about working my ass off and reaching a milestone of 250 thousand dollars. My parents made at most about 120 thousand at the top of their careers. Am I to believe that they are not proud of me. That they think i have lost my soul? What's crazy is, it will knock me into the next tax bracket and I will take home less this year than if I had made 240 thousand dollars.

I scored 15 points in a pick-up basketball game. Two assists, and four rebounds, as well. Another time, I ate potato chips while skipping school and watching re-runs on morning television. And did I tell you about the time we went fishing, wearing shorts and sneakers? No dress code near the river.

On the other hand, this has nothing to do with the OP, nor does your post.

I read your op and and I got caught up in the written version of my daily mental rant about class warfare and how it tears Americans apart.

Perhaps I should I look for posts that pertain to that subject then those about people who just discovered our President is a politician.

"confusion." Let's look at why I think you are confused, okay?

First, I have absolutely no reason to either believe, or not believe, what you claim is your family income. It could be true, or it could be untrue. But that is of no significance whatsoever to me.

You say it is $250,000. If so, good for you. However, the tax gift is for people making over $250,000. The middle class cuts would include the first $250,000 that anyone makes. The cuts for the wealthy are for more than $250,000. Hence, as I note, your first post on this thread expressed "confusion."

Second, anyone who makes $250,000 per year and who identifies themselves with the truly rich in this society are more than just "confused." The most polite word that comes to mind would be "ignorant." This is a type of mental error that allows a person who believes that because they are registered "republican," that they actually have things in common with a George W. Bush, or a Dick Cheney. The only people who have things in common with the obscenely wealthy are other obscenely wealthy individuals.

Gandhi called poverty the wost form of violence. I can say without any possibility of error that having children suffer from hunger, and from lack of a warm, safe place to live, is not just a form of violence, it is a sin. A social sin, considering that we live in a land of plenty. And what creates this type of social sin is an economic system that allows the greed of the filthy rich to horde wealth/access to resources. And that is, by any rational definition, class warfare. My saying this appears to make you uncomfortable. Perhaps it is just confusion.

I read your op and and I got caught up in the written version of my daily mental rant about class warfare and how it tears Americans apart.

Perhaps I should I look for posts that pertain to that subject then those about people who just discovered our President is a politician.

from the filthy rich thieves who now get it to needy Americans instead.