If Operation Payback is OK,

because its goals meet with our approval, perhaps we should look anew at Nigerian money scams and Internet phishing scams. After all, they're only about redistribution of wealth, right? Then there are the attempts to steal from credit card holders. Is that OK, too? What about when the right-wing hackers decide to attack, say, DU or Huffpo or FDL for their opinions? What will you think if your own website, where you express progressive ideas is brought down by hackers?

Maybe that site you visited that infected your PC with malware is allowing your computer to be used in a DDOS attack somewhere. Maybe that hacker who grabbed your email list last month and is sending out bogus emails in your name is just an activist.

All of these things are attacks on and from the Internet. How do we decide which types of hacker attacks are OK and which are not? We are all vulnerable. Our favorite websites have the same vulnerability as the Visa and MasterCard sites. Some DUers are making their living selling stuff on ebay and etsy, and may be harmed by an attack on Paypal. It cuts both ways.

I think we need to be careful not to lionize Internet hackers, to be quite frank. This could explode to harm all of us very easily.

Especially, since it will do nothing except make matters worse for ordinary people.

situation. Go along, get along, work within the system. Until it was too late. We're already late for this party. We're on the brink.

Surely, we don't want to make matters worse for 'ordinary people'.

Because, if you aren't, I hate to be the one who has to point it out to you that it applies to your post.

Neo-Nazis.

Can you imagine? "OMG! You said I'm like the Nazis! You lose!" says a guy in an SS uniform with a swastika tattoo on his face.

It's not like Godwin's law is a law of physics... It's something some guy on usenet made up, and has about as much value as "Jinx! You owe me a coke!" or any other grade-school gotcha-game.

and it is in fact a most offensive position to take, that mention of the Holocaust is off limits. You can serve Goodwin, I myself made a pledge long ago to people who survived that which you do not wish to remember, that I would never forget. So your so called argument and so called law are morally repugnant to thinking people. That which you claim must not be mentioned is the sole subject of entire museums and fields of study. Museums of Tolerance, Places of Remembrance. I remember Cheney in a Parka at a Holocaust memorial, I figured he borrowed the parka from Goodwin, a matter of professional courtesy.

And who are "ordinary people"? I think they should sue you for defamation.

But this isn't about me. It's about Operation Payback. Maybe you missed that.

Consciousness of that might help make it less so.

:kick:

toward the little shits that just spray-painted all over my city park's facilities. It accomplishes about as much.

Other than exposing war crimes and lies told by governments around the world, and other than triggering two weeks now of headlines in every news outlet on the planet, you are quite right, WikiLeaks is just like kids who leave graffiti in city parks.

They are punishing companies which are suppressing information the public has a right to know.

I always hope that I can convey sarcasm without adding a smilie.

I'm not always successful.

:thumbsup:

it's like vandalizing government and corporate institutions that oppress people.

It's not like vandalizing a park, which most everybody things is dumb.

It's like vandalizing something important. There's some moral ambiguity to it. You have to critically think about the situation and decide which side you are on.

I know which side I'm on.

to do their thing on the internets. Petty vandals, bored kids.

Posting on DU. What do I care if someone is bored or not? Lots of people are bored. There are lots of things you can do when you're bored. Most people tend to do pretty lame stuff when bored.

Maybe if I were more regular I'd understand?

From OP(Operation Payback)'s POV, Visa/Mastercard/PayPal/Lieberman fired the first shot by censoring information they feel the public had the right to know. They are targeting companies which are suppressing freedom of speech because of requests from the State Dept. They are *not* targeting companies/individuals/orgs which are presenting an alternative viewpoint.

That is the distinction. It's not about redistribution of wealth (again, in their POV)...it's about punishing companies which try to stifle FOS.

Others may be motivated by different things, but act in similar ways, always believing that they have "right" on their side. It's getting easier and easier to mount DDOS attacks. I know I've seen some DDOS trojans attempt access to my system. I've got good blocking software, so none have succeeded. Now, my mother-in-law's computer isn't as well-protected. She "only uses AOL" and isn't willing to pay for excellent protection. So, I have to keep going over there and removing malware she picks up by clicking links in forwarded emails from her equally elderly and unprotected friends. She won't listen to me when I warn her about that.

And so it goes. It's just a good thing that the tea party morons aren't smart enough to really get going on this stuff. When they figure it all out, there will be serious problems all over the place.

with apparent impunity from the FBI.

http://twitter.com/th3j35t3r

If the feds is going to talk about prosecuting Assange and Operation Payback yet allow "Jester" to openly conduct DDoS attacks, it's war.

Double standards never sit very well with anyone who truly seeks justice.

At least have the grace to get out of their way.

Please feel free to do the same.

allowed me to continue to post on DU. I was really concerned.

have been completely unsuccessful in keeping the leaked material off the Internet. The number of mirror sites has skyrocketed. The Internet is capable of hosting anything it wants to host. So, no suppression occurred. As far as defense funds for Assange goes, that is being handled, too, despite the attempts. The targets of these DDOS attacks have been unable to accomplish their goals, and it wasn't because they were attacked. It was because the Internet is too big and random to be blocked by anyone.

The only effect the attacks have had has been against people who have nothing to do with any of this at all. They are, essentially, FAIL.

Every minute PayPal is down costs the company $10,000 (on average - during peak times it's more like $50,000). To even a $5B company, that's punishing.

If you believe the internet is too big and random to be blocked by anyone, a stroll through eff.org and a refresher on net neutrality might be in order.

It's just a matter of time, though, before similar things start happening, but coming from the right.

If you don't realize that, you haven't been paying attention.

Anonymous is just about the last line of defense for the few freedoms we think we have left.

we're just done LISTENING to your whiny bullshit.

We used paper checks to pay our bills, we shopped at the site.

I was robbed of 1000.00 by Direct TV. All the calls to AG of CA fell on deaf ears. Was a complete waste of my time and energy. There are legal thieves working the internet, scammers of all types.

If one falls for the 'I'm a Nigerian Diplomate...' well, a fool and his money are soon parted - I don't care.

FREE JULIAN ASSANGE

Re: Tuition hikes in England. Glad to see Democracy in action across the pond. Go Brits!

We can't seek the government for redress of our grievances. We can't go to the companies that support the wholesale disassembly and trampling of our rights in the name of corporate profits, they simply won't listen and laugh in our faces. We can't find out what the government is doing in our name without being labeled "UN-AMERICAN".

I support Anonymous.

but it's a reality we need to face in the modern world, and it'll be interesting to see what we learn from this experience and how we adapt.

underdogs or overlords.

that the underdog never wins...maybe this time...

outside the rule of law and absent any due process, at their magisterial whim, a 'star chamber' process, but it is wrong for those attacked to respond?

Seriously?

Sorry.

Nigerian scammers etc are just in it for themselves as individuals. It's a totally different concept.

before I saw yours, we have to try and figure out MOTIVATION. Is it done as a political act to fight for information access or is it done for GREED. If it's greed they're no better than the capitalists. If it's politcal, then we have to decide if we support the POLITICS of it.

SOP

especially if they raise difficulties with the stated opinion.

If his or anyone else's comp was zombied, there would be evidence to show for it and a get out of jail free card.

But ya know what? There's a really easy way to not be zombied:

Don't click on stupid shit.

Don't click porn lures.

Don't click "find out who's checking out your FB page" or just about any other pop up that comes your way.

I'm not sure the whole thing isn't theatre, anyway. Tell me Anon hasn't already been crawling with FBI and I'll laugh in your face.

What if -you- were exported for torture, with no due process? Somehow I think the means employed by governments warrants greater soul-searching than those employed by mischievous Scandinavian teenagers. Our tax dollars are going to DynCorp, who have left a trail of sex trafficking in teenagers from the Balkans in the nineties to Afghanistan now, but let's instead discuss whether we should type in support or protest of petty vandalism no one will remember in a month.

I guess it would really piss people off if cable and satellite feeds for American Idol and Dancing with the Stars were taken down by hackers.

motivation. Is it POLITICALLY based or is it GREED based. If it's greed based, it's no better than the capitalist system itself. If it's politically based and is ANTIcapitalistic, it will have my support.

Is that OK with you? Having a political base is meaningless, since there are many varieties of political beliefs.

they're on.

I don't disagree that some of this same stuff will come from the right AND the government. If it hasn't ALREADY happened. This is RAPIDLY turning into a war. So whose side are YOU on?

feel powerful. I think that's what makes it so attractive.

It does hurt ordinary people, but what do they matter when something righteous is being done to the man? I remember beng in high school and thinking that way--then I went to college and had to get a job, then I had a family, then I lost a job...

My real problem with all this is the hero worship of Assange. I've no opinion about what he's doing, but hero worship of anyone--even with the purest motives--is a dangerous, dangerous thing.

I know I've just found my way back to some DU hate lists; ah, well.

who haven't really thought it through very carefully. I'm not in favor of any wars, Internet or RL. They all produce collateral damage that I don't find acceptable.

or censors free speech and jails journalists and whistle blowers.

We all are more or less passive in the face of these things. Maybe we call our Senators and hope that has an effect.

Put this in THAT perspective. Eventually there has to be SOME kind of action, some kind of push back, or humanity eventually becomes enslaved by that small and ruthless pack of autocrats.

It astounds me that the truly horrific crimes committed by those in power continue without much reaction from people at all - while acts of resistance are treated as if they were terribly impolite or inconvenient at best - or 'terrorism' and 'treason' by apologists for the power elite.

You don't protest stuff by hurting other people.


Does anyone seriously think it would be OK to protest in the streets to such an extent that essential vehicles like fire trucks, police cars, ambulances, couldn't get through to a nearby hospital?


this is my issue. People have the right to protest. They do NOT have the right to protest in a way that does, or potentially could, harm others.

Seriously?

Americans are so damned ass backwards about our priorities. To be inconvenienced is a bigger crime than bombing school children and torturing people.

or else they wouldn't waste their time doing it.


One man's "Corporate Whore" is another man's paycheck.

If a company loses money for a period of time, who's going to suffer for that?

The Corporate Pigs?

No. Life will go on as before for them....they'll still have their jobs and their paychecks and their fucking outrageously sickening bonuses.

It'll be the little guys who work there who will get hurt. It's always the little guys who get hurt and everyone knows it.

Just because there haven't been reports of anyone being hurt, that doesn't mean nobody hasn''t been hurt, or won't be hurt sometime in the near future because of what these people have done, and may do, to others.


Revenge is designed to hurt. The trouble is, people often don't give much thought as to whom is likely to be hurt. And in fact, people who try to get revenge on others often end up hurting themselves. If there's any justice in this universe, everyone involved will get what he or she deserves.

Torture, illegal war, kidnapping foreign citizens in foreign countries and rendering them to countries that torture - people that turn out to be innocent even.

Those are the actions of YOUR government. What are YOU doing about that?

And you're going on about poor mastercard and poor visa? Seriously?

(This has EVERYTHING to do with Wikileaks).

I had wondered about myself last night.

If Wikileaks is such a paragon of Freedom, then why isn't DU facilitating donations?

And what would happen if it did?

What would happen if the Powers That Be told DU to stop making it possible to donate money, and it did stop, and Wikileaks supporters hacked this site...


Or...what if Wikileaks supporters, angered that some of us think they're dirty scumballs, decided to get back at those of us who hold that opinion by jamming the entire DU site? Who are people going to blame then? People who hold that opinion and exercise their rights of free speech to express it? The Admins at DU who didn't censor those opinions? Wikileaks supporters/hackers who are childishly running around getting revenge on anyone who doesn't agree with them?


I guess, in the end, what people will cheer on and/or encourage depends on how much hurt or inconvenience they personally suffer.

Who gives a shit about the next guy...

:eyes:

"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it." - Morpheus

We police ourselves.

They are not wreaking havoc indiscriminately, but lord knows they have the ability to. They are using admirable restraint in sending their message and soliciting support for their cause. Their activities have no relationship to for-profit internet scams. This is civil disobedience at its finest.

but we live in a country where people feel no shame crossing picket lines. Wish I could recommend your post.

And those laws will yet again deprive us of even more rights. Par for the course in the "Post 9/11" world.

The fear-evoking terms being used on the news are the tell in my opinion.

The term "Cyberwar" is already loaded as described endlessly by computer security professionals:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/12/cyberwar_and_th.html

And "Cyberterrorism" is another loaded term meant to evoke emotion while having a very murky meaning.
Can it be terrorism unless it evokes fear or involves real threat of lost property or lives?
Honestly, not getting to Visa the second I want to doesn't scare me very much.

It use to counter the anti-piracy movement until all the trolls and noobs hijacked it.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine DU or MediaMatters or some other favorite site or business being on the receiving end of a DNS attack that prevented you from accessing. I've been out here when the mouse running the DU server couldn't keep up and most the posts were about all the troubles they were having. Even worse, imagine that attack turned loose on your own machine. Hacking does nothing but look vindictive and juvenile and distracts from the contents that are in the Wikileaks cables.

Also these antics give ammo to those who want to further restrict and regulate internet access and privacy. While some think there's some merit to this cyberstreet theater it creates more enemies than friends...and enemies with far bigger resources than a bunch of hackers in mom's basement.

*yawn*

When you apply the same argument to extralegal actions of states or in support of states, such as the attacks that keep taking down Wikileaks and the indeed-terroristic threats of politicians and officials al. calling for the murder of Assange, not to mention US drone bombings disguised as "Yemeni," torture, kidnappings without writ or charges and all the rest, or when you apply the same argument to all the other forms of intimidation the state has summarily used in the last few days to shut down the freedom of the press, then, THEN, maybe you'll have the minimum moral standing to complain about the window-breaking (right or wrong) that has comes in direct and obvious response.

One appears to have as its only motivation, personal profit.

The other appears to have an agenda based on an ethical stance rather than personal gain.

To me, that's a precise and relevant difference between the two. To others, maybe not.

keep fucking that chicken

DDoS attacks against corporations that meddle in the dark side are NOT the same as scams to steal someone's money.

"This isn’t about terrorism, this is about justice. It’s about reminding you people who found it politically convenient to forget."

out of the train window as they're pulled out of the station.