There is SOMETHING major going on

Not only in DC, but there is a change a coming.

In case you have not heard, Prince Charles was attacked by angry students (and three Ministers have resigned over the whole student fee row)

Here we have a revolt in Congress... (Time for the rest of us to get off our behinds)

The Anonymous attacks.

Demonstrations and stikes all over Europe...

This is starting to have a feeling that this is more than just a riot. No, not yet a revolution, but definitely more than just a riot. I think the push back has begun.

we should be good.

:rofl:

This is starting to have the outlines of either 1848 or 1968

the last election is all the proof you need.

And don't get me wrong, aren't protests in Europe the norm? Wouldn't it be actual news if protests weren't happening there?

the student protest in London has a different flavor to it...

There is pushback.

As to Americans it really does not matter if a few million take to the streets... the media will NOT cover it.





Just pointing this out....

I was there in the Federal Plaza in Chicago protesting the war.

you are circling the board.... collect your $200.... and hand it to the first property owner you land on....

WHEN you cannot pay..... you sell your last asset

WHEN you STILL cannot pay.... you either LOSE and leave the board..... OR the rich guy loans you a few dollars so you can circle again

CAPITALISM HAS THIS ENDING.... AS RESOURCES (PROPERTIES) SETTLE INTO THE HANDS OF A FEW, EVERYONE ELSE JUST STARTS THE CIRCLING

********** SO HERE ARE SOME SOLUTIONS.....
1) add more properties and an extra board
2) print more money and hand it out to the poor people
3) add new taxes to the wealthy person until it is a game again
4) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? exactly...... WHAT DO YOU DO....

And it's way inflated to 50,000 or even 500,000 and covered incessantly for days/weeks by all media.

Of course, no one ever investigates or reports that Rick Scott & Dick Armey paid for the buses and paid the people to attack HCR at the town hall meetings. They just reported the angry citizens, over and over.

BTW - I wish things were changing and push back happening, but don't see it at all where I live, in redneck northern FL. During the Vietnam war, there was major pushback and it was obvious even here.
With Faux news leading the way in spinning and lying and the other media following along like sheep to please their fat cat owners and advertisers, people do not hear the TRUTH. They hear Gibbs & Summers saying "2nd recession" if tax cuts for millionaires/billionaires not passed - which is a complete lie. They NEVER hear that after the Bush tax cuts that job creation actually tanked in this country. Until we have a way of overcoming the incessant and pervasive lies, there will be no revolution or even major push back. Sorry, I just see the glass is more than half empty in this case.

But I'd start looking for a toilet before I was in the middle of this crowd. Imagine if they were spread out like Conservative rallies are.

But I think this last election *supports* the OP. The OP is right, people are pushing back against TPTB. That doesn't automatically translate into support for Democrats, though! Especially when the Democrats *are* TPTB. That's why they got voted out - because they were in power. Simple as that. There seems to be an assumption by some based that civil unrest is somehow *inherently* left-wing. But I don't think that's right at all.

clearly we aren't even close to anything like that. Americans were more than happy to vote along party lines again.

Like it or not we have a 2-party system now because of our voting method. People are feeling anti-establishmentarian and the Democrats controlled the Presidency and the House. It looks to me like the exact same dynamic that caused the Republicans to lose so badly the elections before that. It wasn't really because the population moved substantially to the left, much as we might like to believe it; instead, it was a reactionary impulse against the party in power. It's the exact same reaction that has been aimed at both parties. That's why I think the OP is right.

One state bucked the trend against Democratic ticket, California, what is the difference? Secretary of State Debra Bowen There were not many complaints about the electronic bandits here since Ms. Bowen has worked tirelessly to insure we have good machines with audit-able results.

I read that the voting machines in this country are from 2 groups and the heads of both are Bush Pioneers. Based on all the research, I feel confident that the tallies are not only manipulatable but are being actively manipulated. How else could Rick Scott win in FL after ripping off seniors, who not only vote but vote in large numbers? There were several people at my work who are Repug but voted for Sink because of Scott's fraud.

Many Repug states have not only installed these fraud prone machines but passed laws outlawing an actual count - why? - make it easy to skew the results. With the end of voter pollling, that just greased the skids.

if someone's saying something that's going on there cannot happen here because of our election results (which were less conservative than theirs!)...they don't know what they're talking about.

or it's going to be the low IQ crowd making those decisions for us.

.... and how many polls will be financed and made to prove it was something else that got them voted out.

THEY WERE GIVEN THE POWER AND THEY ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING WITH IT.

Time to vote them out. That is EXACTLY what happened.

And that could mean that what happens in the near future is very important. Will all of us who want change find our common ground and work together? Getting past our differences won't be easy. But if we don't do it, we could end up fighting each other instead of the common enemy.

For a start, I think that no matter how ridiculous the Tea Partiers get, we should respond rationally and respectfully, without sarcasm. Even among ourselves -- they *are* looking at what we do among ourselves.

Places where we might agree with at least some non-Democratic protestors against TPTB: invasive searches at airports, expanded police powers, high deficits and national debt, unjustified war, joblessness, the growing income gap, and the continuing disempowerment of the common person. Remember how stupid we thought they were when they screamed "Keep your government hands off our social security." Maybe they were just prescient.

you're right, i was thinking the same thing regarding our elections. They were evidence of volatility and instability. Maybe we're both crazy.

It is not the left vs the right that is the problem; It is the corrupt powers that be vs the people. That seems to be where the revolt is.

The conservatives took power if you recall.

Aka third way?

Ot use a trite saying from the US... why vote for the light R, when you can get the real deal.

also the coalition was with a few in the Liberal Party... which is quite left.

in the UK some used to be Lib Dems. You think we feel betrayed? It's as if we elected Bernie Sanders and he turned in Dick Cheney.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Clegg

The Lib Dems' natural allies would have been Labour to pull Labour away from centrism and back to its source beliefs. Instead, when Clegg united with the Tories after the election results were in, he lost nearly all his bargaining power. The Lib Dems were essentially defanged with no effect on the Tories. Their plans are to undo anything positive that Labour had done and to reinstate all the privileges of the already prosperous.

Somehow, this scenario sounds dismally familiar. But the students, at least, are not taking it quietly.

telling me. And the students are not taking it quietly. Hope ours take a cue from the, but I doubt it.

...they all are aimed at conservative politics. You can argue that Obama is not a conservative, but the revolt here is that his administration lacks the change we wanted. Whether it's fair or not, he's the one who raised our expectations. Folks here are revolting because we see capitulation, not change.

The R's will back the Upper Class...anything can happen once they really get going.

revolting....prices have dropped. This could kick the Banksters in the ass.

Since I have no money, nor bonds....let the Rich get ready to fear the masses.

People have lost their pensions, savings and jobs, yet they seem to believe the GOP has an answer. Reality and history dictate otherwise, unrestricted business will destroy the nation fiscally. When one adds war profiteers and wild investments by people that have no real job except to spend other people's money, (all the while collecting fees and bonuses), the soup is set to boil over and burn everyone.

People are incredibly stupid if they actually believe the policies of the GOP that have been the route to failure so many times in the past, will actually spur the economy. The GOP is hellbent on doing nothing but cater to their ultra-rich nest padders.

it's just a matter of time.

I live in Dumfukistan, formerly known as Ohio, so I understand what you speak of.

I see lots of anger out there....but it's not directed at those that deserve it.

I wish.

But I have to admit, how widespread they are is suggestive. You knew when the economy turned bad worldwide and the solution everywhere was to reduce debt this would happen.

Hey, instead of a general workers' strike, how about a debtors strike? Where everybody skips a payment or two on their interest-bearing debt? Workers' strikes are no longer effective in the US, but this whole economy runs on debt now. Massive nonpayments will probably cause a panic. Or call it a "Consumers' Strike."

Meanwhile, have mass protests at banks and Wall Street Firms instead of Congress the White House.

They brought us Nixon and Reagan and it's been downhill ever since.

they started to organize a MOVEMENT in 1964... that was their reaction to that electoral shellacking... and now it is bearing fruit.

We need to do the exact same thing... it is not at the electoral box. It is NOT at the party hall, though that is part of the solution... it is AT MOVEMENT POLITICS... and it is high time the 'eft, which had it's balls taken off by McCarthy and defanged in 1973 to get it. We need to have a long term vision and to create a MOVEMENT.

But on the short term... what is gong on in the streets across the world is serious.

but Nixon signed the clean air act and many other progressive bills. You may get a conservative leader, but they are scared shitless of movements. What the wealthy have forgotten is that when you have nothing to lose...you.have.nothing.to.lose.

The middle class is fast reaching that point. How does funding the unemployment by balancing it with a bonus tax of say 50% ? That once was unthinkable in this country-but not any more. Thanks to Wikileaks-the average person knows they were lied to. Now jack with the SS and they will figure they were cheated too. Then all hell will break lose.

wiki what?

They know they are geting lied to, but the leaks are not having that much of an effect.

Go ahead and ask regular joes what they know about them.

And abroad... it has been a collective MEH moment.

The bank leaks, not that average joes will know about them, will have a harsher effect since banks don't declass things. These leaks, same shit different decade.

Oh and the relatively minor effect of the leaks in the US is partially the US Media.

Because it's true. :(

"Britain's Got Talent", etc. as do other European countries.

Perhaps I'm slow on the uptake, but I'm not getting "whoooossshhhh".

It is likely the previous poster is claiming that the joke went over your head... making a whoooosh like sound.

Change is coming, no matter what anyone does to stop it.

IMHO.

everyone does. Not even 10% of Americans watch this show that the folks who like to play 'in the know' claim is the devout obsession of the entire land. It is a popular TV show, just like others for many decades now. A small segment of the population watches them, even the big hits. So while the tired joke is always worth repeating, that should not be mistaken for such a comment as having an actual point. Even among those watching TV at the time, far more are watching something else, even on Idol's biggest night.
I just get sick of the off the rack slams at the people. For not enjoying the entertainment others think they should, or for that matter, for not even watching shit that others seem to think controls their thoughts.
Additionally, American Idol is a remake of a British Program called Pop Idol that has been more popular there that this version is here, and those people are 'in the streets' as people say, right now. The Idol audience is protesting right now. All over Britain.

I actually never watched an episode of american idol in my life.

And I still think it's funny and that's that!

We need something or someone to get the masses out into the streets.

:rofl:

This is to let you know that one of our main targets is American Idol. That is all.

Talk is cheap.

and I've been 'there' 4 or 5 times.
I may just start spending more time in my cabin in the woods.

The larger the downturn, the bigger the unrest.

You may have connected the dots.

neither was 1848...

In fact, 1968 is the reason why some in the upper echelons of society want to get rid of the middle class.

Young people without jobs can be very loud and dangerous, since they have lots of time on their hands, and if they are bored and idle, they can dream up all kinds of mischief. Of course, I don't think protests are necessarily mischief - nor are they mostly. It's only when crowds lose control that they end up harming innocent people.

1848, I'm not as familiar with that era, sorry. But I recced your thread ('wrecked'? lol)

well fed middle classes, that were educated, were NOT a good idea... since they could get out of control... no shit sherlock.

So that is when the counter revolution and class warfare really started.

pointedly NOT HIRING liberal arts graduates.

In the old days, you could major in anything and get hired into the management training program of a large company. The assumption was that the company would train you on the job and send you to school for any further training you might need. (There were such opportunities when I was in grad school in the 1970s, banks that would take liberal arts graduates and have them work part-time at the bank while earning an MBA.)

After the student upheavals, major corporations decided that liberal arts graduates were too likely to rock the boat, so they started hiring only business majors or people who already had MBAs. This cut down on their training costs and freed them of people who knew something besides number crunching. The transition occurred in the late 1970s and was nearly complete by the mid 1980s.

I wondered why I never could get hired... really...

No one hanging out around a real campus with a real exchange of ideas going on.
Businesses love the online degree crowd. Credentials without critical thinking.

of really stupid decisions. That is what got our economy where it is -- half-educated MBAs running the business world.

academia ( in one way or another and often with four or five year "breaks" ) since 1973 (TA) - the corporatization of education is simply the "logical" endpoint of a process that began around 76-77. At the same time, there was a concerted attack on the liberal arts as "useless." The first evisceration of the public university systems ( and what happened to SUNY in the late 70s is a good case in point) started with the elimination of full departments in the humanities. Same thing is going on again.

The real goal of corporatization is to make public "higher education"unaffordable for the middle and working classes. That is, at least in large part, what the street actions in London are about.

because he doesn't know anything except how to crunch numbers and manipulate employees."

I spent three years temping inside some large companies during the Reagan recession. I was just a lowly temp, but I saw some of those guys (and a few gals) who knew nothing but a four-year degree in business followed by an MBA.

I'm not counting the decent people who got an MBA out of fear that they'd never find a job. (I know some later-life MBAs who are deeply cynical about the whole thing.) I'm talking about the suburbanites who have lived in an affluent cocoon all their lives, got a four-year business degree, then an MBA, and proceeded to help wreck the country.

"You Boomers had everything handed to you" meme. Clueless doesn't even begin to describe that concept.

There was a reason they dumbed down the curriculum after the Boomers -- we were the best-educated generation, before or since, we asked too many questions AND we acted.

versatility,

at all the companies then headquartered in the Twin Cities (and there were a lot of them).

The people I talked to were all managers who had been hired between 1958 and 1970, and they all said the same thing: That when they came out of college, they were liberal arts majors (history, music, English, etc.) and the company put them through its own training program and sent them to night classes to learn whatever specialized skills they needed. One of my informants said that one of his company's stars was someone with a degree in art history.

One of the companies did a lot of business with Japan, but the guy I talked to there shook his head and said, "Nowadays the Human Resources Department weeds out anybody who doesn't have at least a bachelor's degree in business and preferably an MBA." Then he sighed and said, "I bet you'd be really employable if you had an MBA."

Having just come out of a long graduate school career, the last thing I wanted was more school, so I stuck it out as a temp until an academic job opened up.

everyone had skin in the game or was potential cannon fodder because of conscription.
The Sputnik factor came to fruition. After the Soviets launched Sputnik America panicked. There was a drive to get everyone into college because the perception was that we'd fallen behind academically. Consequently, a larger segment of the population went to college where they honed their critical thinking skills. One popular slogan was "Question Authority." The idea that an entire generation would march off to war because the government said so was held up to scrutiny by those expected to just follow orders. And going to street demonstrations was a good way to hook up and get laid.

Why were all those hippie chicks protesting when they had no "skin in the game?"

You've explained it demographically, but unrest doesn't just happen for the same reasons every time. It also looks to be a convergence of unhappiness over many things. Such as in London, Assange's arrest and the US oppression of WikiLeaks might just add people and energy to the student movement.

who were potential cannon fodder. Besides, war was against the hippie creed of peace and love.

and yes, those were the biggest reasons. We were also a caring group and didn't like our country killing hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese people, along with our friends, boyfriends, and brothers for no real reason other than to make the military industrial complex happy. Oh yeah, the oil reserves off Vietnam are huge and we all knew that was part of the real goal of our country.

that there are huge oil reserves off the coast of Vietnam.

Now it's public knowledge, but we knew it forty years ago and knew that it was one reason why it was so "important" to "save Vietnam from Communism."

But the point was, do you think nothing will come of this, then?

not Mexico City, not Paris, nor London... and this is the point, this is having the feeling of THAT 1968, not just Ashbury Road in San Fran

I started to explain but too personal. Thank you.

universities and colleges were turned into diploma mills - emphasis on job. The 1968 protests weren't the unemployed, they were women, mothers, grandmothers, grandfathers, etc., who were protesting. That's why Nixon crapped his pants, he'd lost white middle America. It was also when the war started on the middle class.

Got's to keep us skeered, so in came OPEC, massive layoffs in Detroit, crack in the big cities - it's been one disaster after another, because we keep blaming each other regarding the problems in the US.

We've been told that we *have* to have a job or we are layabouts welfare queens/kings, sucking off the teat of others (who coincidentally do not pay as much in taxes as you, because they are in a higher bracket, but they can sure the fuck tell you how to spend yours).

It's been one massive brain washing scheme after another, but glamors can only last for so long. The last administration keep it up 24/7, and now we've been inured to anymore. The one's you see clamoring for the pat down of your tween daughters, I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts are the paid operatives who swarmed the internet tubes in order to discombobulate the discussions. Problem is, you can generally tell who they are because they don't have the Righteous Anger, they just type funny, almost on purpose to prove they are one of "us." And they seem to be the same one's over and over that CNN, F*X, ABC, NBC, et al seem to interview, to the point that it looks like they are continuously interviewing the same family about the same issues - then the reporter turns, with a gleam in their eye, tell us, there's no left here, just pro/all-American right wing values.

Sorry for the babbling - in summation - the 1960s-1970s protesters weren't the unemployed, they were every person.

and living in a repressive, racist, sexually backward society.

(Yes, believe it or not, society was once more repressed than it is now.)

It also was mostly the college kids protesting. My town, which was lower middle class and middle class, had about half the kids go to college, the other half got jobs in Chicago or the mills. We protested, they mostly didn't.

But, economics was not the problem - in fact, compared to later generations, most of us in college, were nowhere near as focused on what jobs we would get afterward.

The European Revolutions of 1848, known in some countries as the Spring of Nations, Springtime of the Peoples<3> or the Year of Revolution, were a series of political upheavals throughout Europe. Described by some historians as a revolutionary wave, the period of unrest began in France and then, further propelled by the French Revolution of 1848, soon spread to the rest of Europe.
Although most of the revolutions were quickly put down, there was a significant amount of violence in many areas, with tens of thousands of people tortured and/or killed. While the immediate political effects of the revolutions were largely reversed, the long-term reverberations of the events were far-reaching.
Alexis de Tocqueville remarked in his Recollections of the period that "society was cut in two: those who had nothing united in common envy, and those who had anything united in common terror."<4>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1848

Money isn't everything, 1968-73 could be the relatively extreme exception that proves the rule.

if you stay only within your borders.

Student Revolt, Mexico City... 1968... trust me MLK and Bobby had nothing to do with that one.

The Paris Student Revolt of 1968

The Anti War demonstrations in London, same year

Prague 1968

German Revolts, 1968

I am sure I have missed a few.

Not all go around our events, and yes the economy was VERY GOOD in all those places. But it was a STUDENT MOVEMENT and it was NOT limited to the US... or to US Centric Events, even if they did have a smidgen to do with Nam... but they also had a slew of internal reasons for them happening.

As you said, I will modify it. not everything goes around the US or US events.

They were beloved all over the world. I am not saying they were the sole reason for the riots outside the US, but people need focal points and the war in Vietnam, which wasn't solely a US aggression (99.999% but we had unwilling allies as well, just like we do now), other nations had soldiers there and their citizens were angry about it too, and the people fighting against it here were not just heroes here.

in Mexico it was about DEMOCRACY and the opening of the country.... it had little to do with US events.

People were very focused on American imperialism (at least when talking to me) and the people here publicly fighting it, it affected (affects) them personally.

I even knew someone in Vladivostok with a print of a photo of JFK on their wall and this was in 1999!

Yankees go home... there was that everywhere. The revolts were not just about the United States and this is part of the problem. The belief that everything went around the United States.

Soon Americans will join others in has been empires. Sadly this provincialism is going to grow am afraid.

I was in Europe that summer. It was astounding. I will never forget my experiences there. The whole world somehow turned faster that year -- and then it slowed down and never moved so fast again.

The Prague Spring was just heartbreaking.

and it ended in Tlatelolco...



(Needed a smaller image)

We have family ties to Hungary and Austria and traveled in Yugoslavia and all through Europe that summer. There were a lot of Czechs taking their first vacations in the West. Since we were very young and camping in a tent, we met them and had lots of fascinating encounters.

I have traveled quite a bit in Europe and lived there for years, but I will never, never forget my experiences of that summer. It was unique.

I e-mailed you. If you want to talk about this more, I would rather communicate privately. I recognize that the name brzezinski might be Czech.

I was 17, spending a year in Paris with my parents. I dropped out of my lycee to hang at the Sorbonne when it was occupied, then photographed the demonstrations in May. In June we went travelling through Europe, and were in Prague in July, singing protest songs in Wenceslas Square with the Czech kids. When we crossed the border from Czechoslovakia into Ukraine we saw trains of flatcars loaded with tanks, and we knew what was coming. We were in Moscow two weeks later when the Russians went in.

Here are some of my pics from Paris:

up. Too often, we think of things only in terms of our own situation. Always enjoy your perspective. 1968 was a very flipped out year . 69 and 70 were pretty nuts, too. And not simply in the US

Students in prosperous times have a lot of financial and therefore mental freedom to question the existing power structures. That's exactly what happened in '68.

The squeeze TPTB have put on the middle class since then has been aimed at keeping people just impoverished enough that they will concentrate on earning a living and not on thinking, but not so impoverished that they feel they have nothing to lose. It's a fine line, and they have walked it exceedingly well.

Until now.

neither was 1848...

In fact, 1968 is the reason why some in the upper echelons of society want to get rid of the middle class.

was originally called chaos. The depression label watered down the chaos concept.

But based on my observations it would be a huge mistake to assume that everyone doing the pushing back agrees with us. That leads me to believe things can, and probably will, get even worse.

each national group has it's own goals.

Trust me, the Paris Comune had very different goals than the students at Tlatelolco, Mexico, or Ashbury in San Fran.

But this is what this is starting to look to me like, possibly so.

be televised. :)

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS3QOtbW4m0

also The Last Poets with "When the Revolution Comes"

Thanks for the reminder, John Q!

Thanks for the thread, nadinbrzezinski.

The hacker attacks aren't particularlly brave, though I think many of the hackers will end up in prison. The "revolt" in congress isn't exactly 1860.

We'll have something to talk about when people really start breaking stuff and risking their lives.

and buy Neuromancer, yes it is a novel... but it is predictive in many ways of what is going on now with the Hackers.

perhaps *the* classic

and what is ironic is that Gibson never, ever bought a computer. He did all on a portable typewriter.

Once he got enough money to buy a computer, he did.


Have you read his newer books? The man is a prophet.....

you'll know the tension has reached critical mass. (Not publicly kissing each other's ass JUST ISN'T DONE, y'know? I think it's in the club rules.)

this ahem revolt in Congress is not a minor thing

From the "You lie!" outburst to an unnamed Democratic Caucus member shouting "F**k the President!", it's evident they're getting frazzled, too. Good. For the most part, these aren't "statesmen," they're just average (and in some notable cases, below average) schmucks with a gift of gab who latched on to a lucrative gig. They know it, and they're starting to realize that we know it, too.

I spoke to two women (separately) today, one in her late 50s and one in her mid-thirties. One of them has just enough money to make it through to the end of the month and no job in sight. Her lease will be up on the first of January and she has no place to go.

The second has a job, but can't pay the rent and eat on her incomes.

These are innocent, good women -- just normal women, and they are just two examples of a number of ordinary people who are facing destitution any day now. They are barely hanging on.

There are more empty, for rent apartments in my area of Los Angeles than I can remember.

The economy is getting worse and, in spite of what the government says, I do not see any hope for improvement. The misery index rises every day.

I don't know what might happen. I wish I could do something to stop the train wreck that I fear is very likely, but I don't know what to do.

lots of people in my neighborhood unemployed (some have already run though all their extensions), lots of foreclosed houses and a "For Sale" in my front yard. I'm a renter but my landlord is in foreclosure and frantically trying to sell this place on a short sale.

About the only difference between here and L.A. is that property values are a lot lower here (they have fallen a LOT), and rents are quite a bit lower too.

The fat cats made bad bets, but instead of accepting their losses and rebuilding their hordes of cash they got their paid for politicians to pay off those debts at near 100 cents on the dollar.

Now those politicians think they can force the poor and middle class to pay for those bad bets, and people are finally waking up to being screwed.

This plan to screw the poor and middle class is moving here to the US next year when the government tries to recoup some of the expense of continuing the Bush tax cuts by slashing entitlements and Social Security.

Lets hope we Americans have the guts shown by the Europeans.

have been going on for a long time, actually. They started in India a few years ago as Runaway Capitalism hit developing countries first. There were food riots and CEOs of big Corps, who were firing people, like here, were afraid to go out of their homes. At the time, some far-sighted people predicted this would spread around the world as the whole Global System was about to collapse. And two years later Iceland's economy crashed, the first European country to do so. Then like a house of cards, one European country after another watched their economies collapse, and the Bankers take off with the spoils before it was too late.

Suddenly there was talk of 'Austerity Programs' and the target of these corrupt Global Capitalists became Europe's Social programs. The Greeks went wild as their government announced cuts in social programs, in salaries etc. It spread across Europe like wildfire and the British, the French, the Irish, country after country saw the beginnings of huge unrest.

The head of the EU warned leaders of these countries 'not to give in to the people' which sparked even more anger, but the leaders did as they were told. Democracy was dead, replaced by a Global New World Order where the formula for each once-sovereign nation was the same as their economies fell like dominoes. Even the language is the same.

Now there is talk of dismantling the EU. I hope it happens. That kind of centralized power removes the power of individual nations and is a prime target for Global Capitalists to take advantage of, with little to no input from the people.

We are now in the process of having the same formula applied here. Kill Social Programs, always referred to as 'entitlements.

The formula is so identical that it is clear the whole thing is being run by a small group of individuals. They gambled away people's money, and now they intend to make the 'lesser people' as Obama's choice for Co-Chair of his phony Commission, Alan Simpson refers to us, pay their gambling debts.

The people of Europe are not stupid, they know what is going on. At first though, this global capitalism seemed to be working great. Economies boomed for a short time, in Ireland eg, but they could not sustain the inflation.

I hope rest of Europe follows Iceland's lead. Toss out their rightwing, U.S. acolyte governments and replace them with people who understand why they are their. Nationalize all banks, forgive all debt, start prosecuting the Banks and the elected officials who caused the collapse, retrieve whatever money can be retrieved from the greedy, corrupt gamblers, and start all over again.

I hope this is the end of another system ending in 'ism'. If those riots turn into elections tossing everyone out, then there will be change. As happened in Iceland.

IMF.

All these programs go back to the 1970s

But I also fear that it may only be a skirmish that, like Seattle in 1999, leaves the ruling class and their security forces more determined to control the masses by any means necessary.

Probably the best possible event would be if the government overstepped an unspoken limit and used tactics against dissent that pushed the people across a threshold of action they currently won't pass. For example, security forces firing into a crowd.

So, I read of each new attempt by governments to stifle dissent in hopes that they will cross that limit, whatever it is.

that attack on Royals... that is a bad sign if you are a member of police intelligence.

the last time that happened was... if memory serves, the Glorious Revolution... that is a few centuries... and given the royals have no real political power these days.

They were not sought after or singled out for attacked. The couple were on their way to an annual event at the London Palladium. I kind of think that many Americans believe the Royal family to be Britain's hated rulers or something. Here's an account of the events;

"I said, 'It's Camilla!' I wasn't trying to alert them. I was just surprised to see her," he said. "A few people turned around and started hitting the windows. People started kicking the car."

The car behind, an official royal Jaguar, also came under attack,

In the confusion a window opened. Charles kept his calm, gently pushing his wife toward the floor to get her out of the line of fire.

"Charles got her on the floor and put his hands on her,"

The 62-year-old prince remained calm, "waving and giving the thumbs' up."

"It was just a surreal thing, It was completely manic."

After several chaotic minutes, the car managed to force its way through the crowd and drive off.

Charles' office, Clarence House, said the couple was unharmed. But Camilla, 63, looked shaken and Charles was somber as the couple arrived at the London Palladium a few minutes after the attack.

was NO ACCIDENT!

simply because of the arrogance of the rich
--and I'm not dogging the English monarchy, just in general--

their feelings of power, the way they're kowtowed to in 'civilized' society,

that kind of arrogance doesn't comprehend that, when the people are rioting, they (the rich) are no longer special but become targets

They are definitely not 'of the people' when they believe they are -- and they could have done good things for the people, doesn't matter, their wealth and power stands them apart.
There's a complete disconnect and strangely, they feel they're untouchable.

JMHO

protection twice, once accidentally and once on purpose.

There is no way that their team did not know what they were driving into, all excuses from the Metropolitan Police to the contrary... you do not allow your package to drive into a flash mob and if you think they did not have chopers on the air.

If they did not know... the level of coordination between the security team and the police is so damn low that it borders on the irresponsible. Why I tend to reach for the tinfoil hat...

The first time, accidental, when we transported our patient, with a VIP on board who insisted, we had a full fledged police escort and roads were cleared... before we got onto them.

The second time, we were all briefed on the security plan as far as what we needed to know.. and nobody moved until all, and I mean this, all was clear.

This was no accident.

Oh and I am damn glad they did not follow standard procedure or we'd be discussing not 35 arrests, but why people were run over. That armor also saved their hides. A regular Rolls Royce would have been penetrated...

From what I hear the students were making their way down Regent Street bashing in store windows and wot not, then the Rolls rolled by with the Heir to the Throne in it. lol it was just too much for them to resist.

The students didn't go looking for the Royal Family on purpose.

Imagine if American protesters attacked a car with a US president in it like that. I think they would have been some protesters shot or at least arrested. :)

and the procedure is for the driver to punch it to get their packet out of there, no matter who or how many are run over.

They didin't follow that.

As to arrests, so far 35 according to the news.

And I think that is coming too.

that is almost an immutable law of history...

:)

"them" over there, right. They would love to deny access to certain sites here reporting on any revolution-like event or in fact bring the whole Internet down.

I mean, having to choose between unemployed getting what they need to the rich getting what they want?
The unemployed getting theirs at the risk that Social Security will be gutted?
The lower income brackets having a tax hike so that the unemployed get benefits and the rich get their tax breaks? Difference between paying the electric bill or not?

It is indeed class warfare.

Problem is...they are dividing the lower classes by making them feel that nobody cares about their plight, when the reality is that by fixing THEIR plight another one is created for someone else.

It isn't going to end pretty. That is what I know.

called Day of the Dove, in which an alien life force that feeds on hatred and violence takes over the Enterprise and arms humans and Klingons with edged weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_the_Dove

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708427/

Grains of sand in nascent pearls. Btw, I owe you an apology but your PM are turned off. I'm sorry for being unfairly rude to you last week.

from the primaries.
We had some ugly exchanges.
These days, I agree with just about everything you say.:hug:

I don't remember you as being ugly at all. You never made my long ignore list. :hug:

But I was a deluded fool during the Primaries, backing Obama with all my might. I'm sure I owe you an apology from then too. In fact, I owe the world an apology for that.

I also like your tribute to the sweet prince. It makes me sick to realize there are so many like him - alone, afraid, and thinking he didn't matter - and we couldn't save him.

In the meantime, those who haven't read "The Fourth Turning" may want to pick up a copy as well. Everything we know is being shaken to its foundations.

In the end, and hopefully without being maudlin, all we have is each other.

Just after the millennium, America will enter a new era that will culminate with a crisis comparable to the American Revolution, the Civil War, the Great Depression, and World War II. The survival of the nation will almost certainly be at stake.

http://www.fourthturning.com/


You might enjoy this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHfFAl5Jhxc . It's an original cello composition by Justin, sweet prince on his youtube channel. It's hauntingly beautiful. I'm listening to it now and enjoying it. It goes well with this Wikileaks time.

:hi:

:-)

Thanks for the links. :hi:

I never heard of that book (or the theory) before, but I can see now that I have to read it.

on how significant the DOD\ State are... as DOCUMENTS, and that is cool.

Now I cannot wait for the bank documents... for the reasons I stated last week, those will do some real damage.

But I was wrong to take it so strongly. When the leaks started, I knew, deep in my guts, that this was the start of something big. The faster people yawned and Hillary minimized the damage control she was doing, the more I felt things were about to explode because people in the streets weren't going to take kindly to their government's hypocrisy and hidden complicity. I predict that the House of Saud won't see 2013.

I'm eagerly waiting for the bank documents too.

Wrote this awhile back and still think there isn't enough reporting (likely on purpose) about all of this in the context of the G8/G20 deals that were made.
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8769829

Sometimes I feel I'm yelling into the wind on this topic.

Thank you for trying to spread the word.

And the U.S. press seems to have a big mute button on even mentioning it.

Krugman's at least brought up the brutal reality of the impact on nation's like Ireland where austerity has made it all worse and compared to Iceland, which took a different route.


:hug: to you

:hi:

on Assange & Wikileaks after they announced bank disclosures are forthcoming.
Both govts and banks don't want the curtain drawn back on how these agreements have been made.
Wikileaks is giving people a focal point to direct their frustration and anger.

And the pattern keeps continuing:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4652439

The tax/budget fight is part of the same - increase for the poorest (at the same time social & health programs are being reduced) and more for the wealthiest.


:hi:

It's starting.

If you haven't read "The Fourth Turning", I recommend it.

Thanks, Nadin, for such a thought-provoking thread.

If they aren't technically bankrupt already.

It's going to come to a frightening head soon.

I hope Bush and Cheney & Co. burn in hell forever.

Ironically -- it is government which creates corporations!!

Disaster Capitalism of the rich against the poor, of the US infrastructure...extremely deadly stuff.

We will also be alleged to have sold everything for $24 -- !!

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I am sure a few people in police and internal security agencies are reaching the same conclusion by the way.

This is no longer your run of the mill...

But go on... after all you are the one who will stand on the side lines and cheer the cops... right?

:patriot:

when things get hot.

This is definitely no longer a riot, Lord knows I have been present at a few...

............are still likely to get their heads knocked in!

"There are no innocent bystanders!"

eom

No one on the internet can claim they are a veteran of anything.

The beauty of that is you have to support your opinions - rather than just rely on "I'm a veteran so you better agree with me or I'll use it against you."

Also a fallacy - using a person's status to support their argument, rather than facts.

The poster wrote, "You sound like an instigator that stands on the sidelines while others get killed," to a person who served this and another country, putting her life on the line while SAVING the lives of others.

I find it totally offensive, and I'll smack down any similar, asinine posts about any DUer who has worked as a combat medic, field doctor, etc.

people making those comments are the ones who stand on the sidelines.

:-)

Thanks by the way.

I know the type... a yellow stripe runs down their backs

I know I did.

How does that feel when it is directed at YOU?

By the way, most of us know and trust nadinbrzezinski, but you, not so much (and I'm being kind).

under your sacrosanct status quo.

that occur as abrupt change, often but not always, violent change is about to occur.

I warned during the Bush administration that our society was more and more resembling that of pre-NAZI Germany. 9/11 gave our government the excuse to introduce repressive, intrusive action by our government that was repressive and potentially very repressive in nature. The increase in scapegoating minorities including illegal immigrants increased and was given a lot of recognition.

Now I see a lot of the same signals that preceded the French Revolution. Our tax system more and more favors the trust fund wealthy. They inherited their wealth and it is not taxed as heavily as work is taxed. When inherited wealth and wealth earned from passive investments do not bear their burden of taxes, the burden on the productive, working middle and lower classes increases. I have oversimplified it, but that is sort of what happened prior to the French Revolution. Also, prior to the French Revolution, the French government meddled in foreign wars. It even helped fund our revolution (remember Lafayette) -- an effort that put further stress on the French economy.

Of course, our time is very different and, although we can learn from history, it does not repeat itself. But there are remarkable parallels, chilling parallels. It scares me.

They can only be pushed so much and they begin to fight back against the bosses.

someone somewhere planning something! (Can't remember what her response was). I then said they'd have to be super secret at it. Oh please. Oh please. Before I leave this planet, we need the truth, we need justice..this already has been a wild ride.

and in a liberal direction --

The system that is in motion is too complex for rational control. We can each put our efforts toward moving our own corner of it in a positive direction, but the system as a whole is inherently uncontrollable. That's what TPTB are discovering to their dismay.

When criticizing what he called the "Conspiracy Theory of Society" (the stereotypical conspiracist nonsense about Illuminati/Jews/Etc. controlling the world) he wrote that any conspiracy by the elites to bring society under total control will always fail because societies are to complex to totally control.

which some folks have idealized....

There, I am done ranting

:-)

It's interesting (but not surprising) that we're only noticing it now that it has hit the social/political/economic arena. For people with an ecological or systems analysis perspective this has been building for the last 5 years.


I think that our society (and potentially our civilization as a whole) is approaching the "critical angle". When you look at the level of social complexity we're living with, consider that the ever-increasing streamlining of our infrastructure is decreasing our resilience to shocks, factor in the degree to which power and wealth have been pumped out of general society into a power elite, then add in soaring energy and food costs and increasing climate instability, the results we're seeing now seem inevitable.

but that is another discussion...

:hi:

is the game changer.

I don't think we can compare revolutions of old to what's going on today, or the potential of what could happen today. Things have the capacity to shift overnight, globally, more than ever before.

For good or bad.

I choose a positive shift, with people realizing they're empowered. Let all the emperors be revealed as having no clothes.

:hi:

or now do you see that the consequences are for real?

They tell the politicians and the media what to do and they arrange what the banks should do direct to their corporation - the Federal Reserve. Everything they are planning is through their foundations and think tanks and institutions like The Council on Foreign Relations. They advocate population control, their ownership of us, and tight control over us. They are the ones with the plan to make us (US)a second or third world country - bring the other large countriies up and then level it all off except for the large countries and grouped countries (EU for example).

Knowing where to curb it all means everything to their successes. We must keep paying taxes on whatever income we have or new taxes, but not to the point of a a potato famine as they would not want diasporas.

We in the US are going down as they become more selfish and their accumulations of the earth riches, including humans meets their plan. Manufacturing is still on, therefore buying is still on, but others in the world have to realize and rise to the equivalent of our former big house and car dream and gain theirs. We are not going to see relief until we have fall point they have designated.

They are playing a balancing game and are probably meeting (through one or more of their acronym affiliations) to discuss the British riots if they were not already anticipated. The economic downfall of four of the smaller countries of the EU is by plan. The leaders of the all the EU nations are calling the shots along with the US and other countries. It's in their plan and they have a trail of pronouncements and you can figure out what is going on by decades old past or recent past.

We have to study.

You know what? In spite of all the shit that is falling I am looking forward to the next year. I thought the counter punches would start after the Net Neutrality vote but the damn hackers got the jump on me.

momentum can be hard to sustain.

even though we've more cause.

That is one reason you are not seeing it.

I remember tanks in LA in oh 2003 iirc... that was on INDYMEDIA... let me see if I can find it...



You'd think that would have been on CNN right? how about MSNBC? Perhaps ABC? Crickets...

So it is happening... just that you and I do not hear off it unless we go out of our way and outside the main stream.

This will occur online and then the streets. My hunch is that once (and if) the Internets go down. then we will see the panic set in. Imagine if Tianamen Square was in the US, say Washington Square in NYC. People in Kansas would have had no idea what was happening.

and the timeline has moved forth...

Some places exactly what you said... others... (I am willign toi bet on Texas leading the way), secession.

Living in New England, I say let them go.

There's so much conflation about who's responsible, there's no telling where this will lead.

as Clausewitz wrote... all plans break down when you make contact...

And i don;t care how noble the goals of revolution are... they tend to somehow break down along the way... until of course they find a new normal.

(revolution, civil war, the imminent collapse of.... everything) for years here.

I realize you will become unbrearable but quite frankly I don't have time for the children and you my dear are a two year old

try a little self-control. I simply pointed out that you've been feverishly making apocalyptic predictions for years here.

I can't blame you for not wanting to be reminded of your poor track record.