Thanks for the group, but I have a pet peeve.

"Motorcycles and scooters"?

In my opinion, they're all motorcycles. This concern is not just semantics, there are safety implications that get ignored when someone is riding "just a scooter". Parents who would never allow their children to ride "a motorcycle" don't think twice about allowing their kids to take off on a Vino or Spree wearing a tank top, shorts and flip-flops.

A scooter is a motorcycle... one that handles comparatively poorly and has inferior braking capabilities due to small wheels, but a motorcycle nonetheless.

my point what does the term "MotorCycle and Scooters" include and exclude?

Simply put is this a "Motorcycle" it is under Pennsylvania State Law:


Is this also a "Motorcycle" again it is under Pennsylvania State Law:


http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tour/isetta-3wheel-special.html

But this is NOT (Same model but since it has four wheels it is NOT a motorcycle under Pennsylvania state law):


http://www.microcarmuseum.com/tour/isetta-bubble-zmold.html

If you want to look at other micro-cars see:
http://www.microcarmuseum.com/virtualtour.html

In my home State of Pennsylvania ANYTHING with a Motor attached and that is operated on a Public roads MUST be license as must the operator (A recent exception was made for "Electrical personal assistive mobility devices" which is defined as a "A self-balancing, two-non-tandem-wheeled device designed to transport only one person with an electric propulsion system.") Thus Mopeds need to be licensed AND so must the operators (But if less than 50cc you do NOT need a Motorcycle license, your regular license will do). This also covers Motorized Bicycles (i.e. bicycles with electric or Gasoline engines fitted to help them be propelled).

My point is when does the term "Motorcycle" include? do we go by how the state have been defining them? (i.e. three wheel cars are Motorcycles in many states). Do we stop at 50cc engines? Do we include eclectic scooters sold by Toy-R-Us? (By law in many states they are "Motorcycles").

Look at the following statures in my Home State of Pennsylvania in regards to Motorcycles:
Pennsylvania first defines what is a "Vehicle" (75 P.C.S. § 102):

"VEHICLE." Every device in, upon or by which any person or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a highway, except devices used exclusively upon rails or tracks. The term does not include a self-propelled wheel chair or an electrical mobility device operated by and designed for the exclusive use of a person with a mobility-related disability.

Then Pennsylvania in 75 Pa.C.S. § 1301 require all "Vehicles" that operate or move on public roads to be "Registered" i.e. be licensed. Pennsylvania then list the exceptions to registration in 75 Pa.C.S. § 1302 (This includes "Human or Animal propelled Vehicles", "Electrical personal assistive mobility devices", Vehicles being towed, golf carts just crossing the road to get to another part of the Golf course, Farm equipment etc).

Here are some more definition of "Vehicles" in Pennsylvania:

"MOTORCYCLE." A motor vehicle having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider and designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground.

"MOTOR-DRIVEN CYCLE." A motorcycle, including a motor scooter, with a motor which produces not to exceed five brake horsepower.

"MOTORIZED PEDALCYCLE." A motor-driven cycle equipped with operable pedals, a motor rated no more than 1.5 brake horsepower, a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cubic centimeters, an automatic transmission, and a maximum design speed of no more than 25 miles per hour or an electric motor-driven cycle equipped with operable pedals and an automatic transmission powered by an electric battery or battery-pack-powered electric motor with a maximum design speed of no more than 25 miles per hour.

You need a Motorcycle license to operate the above under. Under 75 Pa C.S. § 1501:

(a) GENERAL RULE.-- No person, except those expressly exempted, shall drive any motor vehicle upon a highway or public property in this Commonwealth unless the person has a driver's license valid under the provisions of this chapter. As used in this subsection, the term "public property" includes, but is not limited to, driveways and parking lots owned or leased by the Commonwealth, a political subdivision or an agency or instrumentality of either.

75 Pa C.S. § 1504(D)(3)(iv) gives the list of what vehicles a holder of an Automobile license can drive in addition to a Vehicle whose gross vehicles weight is less than 26,000 pounds (i.e NON-CDL License holders)

(iv) The holder of a Class C license shall also be authorized to drive a motor-driven cycle with an automatic transmission and cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cubic centimeters or a three-wheeled motorcycle equipped with an enclosed cab, but not a motorcycle unless the license is endorsed, as provided in this title.

Finally we have a motorcycle license (75 Pa.C.S § 1504 (d)(4):
(4) CLASS M.-- A Class M license shall be issued to those persons who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate a motorcycle. A Class M license accompanied by an endorsement shall be issued to those persons who have demonstrated their qualifications to operate a motor-driven cycle. If a person is qualified to operate only a motorcycle or motor-driven cycle, he shall be issued only a Class M license or a Class M license with an endorsement, as applicable.


Separate from Motorcycle is the definition of a Bicycle in Pennsylvania (Called a Pedacycle in Pennsylvania:

"PEDALCYCLE." A vehicle propelled solely by human-powered pedals. The term does not mean a three-wheeled human-powered pedal-driven vehicle with a main driving wheel 20 inches in diameter or under and primarily designed for children six years of age or younger.

"hairdryer" :evilgrin:

But NEITHER comment addresses my point, are things like the Vespa and Lambretta included in the term "Motorcycles and Scooters"? Is a three wheel Isetta a Motorcycle, as that term is used here as opposed to State law? Do e need another category for such non-motorcycle motorcycles? Or are such things to be discussed herein?

Furthermore do electric Powered bicycles belong here or the Biking group? (The biking group has talked about electric bicycles in the past but only as to retrofit on existing bicycles OR in state where such small engine vehicles do NOT have to be license (Such as Texas).

Technically its an inline skate with an engine. I know this because I had a piaggio, which makes me an expert.

Incidentally I also owned a Fiat Cinquecento, which was also know as the 'motorized' roller skate.

I had a very strange youth.

This is the kind of arbitrary linguistic nonsense, up with which, I will not put. :)

My concern is primarily the need for safety, training, acknowledgement of risk and due diligence that is implied by the decision to ride a motorcycle, vs the carefree abandon that is implied by riding a scooter.

A motorcycle (for the purposes of this discussion, let's assume we're talking about something you use to travel - not the functional equivalent of a skateboard which can go up hills) is well defined by the PA statutes you cite.

Near my area, there's a resort town in which a thriving trade exists for "scooter rentals". Every summer, carefree cutoff-clad vacationers (after having been given the basic 5 minute training by a 16 year old sales clerk) are injured in collisions with autos, or get hurt through just plain stupidity. You can bet many of those vacationers wouldn't rent a motorcycle without thinking a little more carefully about their skills. "It's safe, see? If I get in trouble, I can just step off."

...but I'd argue there's no shortage of folks who feel just as "carefree" about getting on a motorcycle. Ask any hospital. :(

"Motorcycles & Scooters" is meant to be inclusive, since most folks do see a difference between the two. Together in a group, because riders face similar issues no matter what they're sitting on.

"A scooter isn't a real motorcycle" stuff aside, I've seen some pretty beefed-up Adventure Scooters. :D

People in Cars do NO SEE ANY OF THEM. That is the single biggest cause of accidents involving all of them, it is rarely the Cyclist's (And by cyclist I include Motorcyclist, Scooter riders AND bicyclists) or Pedestrian's fault they are hit, more times than not it is the Automobile operators fault. Hopefully this group will address the issue of safety as while as the "Freedom to ride".

:hi:

Your point is well taken that insufficient care is often taken by riders of other kinds of motorcycles too.

I consider "rider" to be all inclusive, and I don't care how many cc's it has.

while I am riding on my preciousssss.

even my 1100cc monsters