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magbana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 10:24 AM
Original message
US SUPREME COURT REFUSES TO REVIEW CUBAN 5 CONVICTIONS
Comments prior to article are from Walter Lippmann

(Now, of course, the complete and total - 100% responsibility
for the continued unjust imprisonment of the Cuban Five rests
in the hands of the President of the United States of America,
Barack Hussein Obama. He could simply release them with just
one single executive action, if he had the political will to
do so. That is the evident task which now faces everyone who
supports them.)
================================================================

AP-US--Supreme Court-Cuba-Espionage,0102
High court won't review 'Cuban 5' espionage case
Eds: APNewsNow. Will be led.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court has refused to review the
convictions of five Cuban intelligence agents who say they did not
receive a fair trial because of strong anti-Castro sentiment in
Miami.

The justices, acting Monday, are leaving in place the
convictions of the so-called "Cuban Five," despite calls from
Nobel Prize winners and international legal groups to review the
case.

The five -- Ruben Campa, Rene Gonzalez, Gerardo Hernandez, Luis
Medina and Antonio Guerrero -- were convicted on charges of acting
as unregistered Cuban agents in the United States and of espionage
conspiracy for attempting to penetrate U.S. military bases.

(Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
APTV 06-15-09 1005EDT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090615/ap_on_go_su_co/us_supreme_court_cuba_espionage
=========================================
WALTER LIPPMANN
Los Angeles, California
Editor-in-Chief, CubaNews
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CubaNews/
"Cuba - Un Paraíso bajo el bloqueo"
=========================================
__._,_.___


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magbana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. Agents Say Strong Anti-Castro Sentiment in Miami Prevented a Fair Trial
"High court won't review ‘Cuban 5’ spy case
Agents say strong anti-Castro sentiment in Miami prevented a fair trial

more photos
updated 49 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court on Monday refused to review the convictions of five Cuban intelligence agents who say they did not receive a fair trial because of strong anti-Castro sentiment in Miami.

The justices left in place the convictions of the so-called "Cuban Five," despite calls from Nobel Prize winners and international legal groups to review the case.

The five — Ruben Campa, Rene Gonzalez, Gerardo Hernandez, Luis Medina and Antonio Guerrero — were convicted on charges of acting as unregistered Cuban agents in the United States and of espionage conspiracy for attempting to penetrate U.S. military bases.
Story continues below ↓advertisement | your ad here

Hernandez was also convicted of murder conspiracy in the deaths of four Miami-based pilots whose planes, part of the Brothers to the Rescue organization, were shot down by Cuban fighter jets in 1996 off the island's coast.

Heroes in Cuba
The five have been lionized as heroes in Cuba, while exile groups say they were justly punished.

Ten Nobel Prize winners and lawyers and legal groups from more than a dozen countries groups urged the high court to step into the case.

The Obama administration contended that the convictions were fairly won, and that high court review was unnecessary.

A three-judge panel of the federal appeals court in Atlanta initially reversed the convictions, agreeing with the defendants that the trial should have been moved from Miami.

But the full 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals reinstated the convictions.

Hernandez is serving a life sentence, while Gonzalez is serving a prison term of 15 years.

The appeals court ordered new sentences for the other three men, including two who originally were given life in prison.

The case is Campa v. U.S., 08-987."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31368949/ns/world_news-americas/
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. awww, I am so sad the spies won't go free
and its very unlikely President Obama would consider pardoning them too. such a shame.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Agreed. No greater crime than watching and reporting on Jose Basulto's band of terrorists.
Edited on Mon Jun-15-09 12:10 PM by Billy Burnett
:eyes:

Now that the supremes have ruled, there is zero chance of any exchange of prisoners.


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
4. What a travesty. n/t
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-15-09 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bummer
I was up for a spy exchange.

However this doesn't necessarily mean it won't happen. What's the difference if the Supremes see the case or not?

We all know the deal with Miami and how a fair trial was impossible down there.
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magbana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. flamingdem, once again you are on to something . . .
I agree with Karen Wald's comment prior to the LA Times blog post -- not getting a review of Cuban 5 case by US Supreme Court is probably a good thing. There is no way that the US can be involved in any effort, including the US Supreme Court, in exoneration of the Cuban 5. BUT, offering them to Cuba as part of a CONVICTED prisoner exchange can be casted as the greatest US goodwill, gee -- let's all get along, move of the last 50 years.

I have included the LA Times blog post because it has a few more comments from Karen annotated within the article.


TOPIC: (Blog LA Times)-The Supreme Court will not review the 'Cuban Five' case
--and that may not necessarily be bad
http://groups.google.com/group/Cuba-Inside-Out/t/8cb2eaef7613fc82?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jun 15 2009 10:58 pm
From: "Karen Lee Wald"


A repeated theme is that the refusal of the Supreme Court to hear the case may in fact speed up the process of seeking their release via negotiations between the Obama administration and the Cuban government....and given the composition of the current Court, nothing positive could have been expected if they did hear the case. So ironically, maybe the refusal to hear the case -- as bad a decision as it is legally -- may in the end prove to be a positive step. klw



The Supreme Court will not review the 'Cuban Five' case
by Carol J. Williams

Top of the Ticket (Blog - Los Angeles Times)
June 15, 2009

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/06/cuban-five-supreme-court.
html

Cuban five In the behind-the-scenes maneuvering to thaw icebound relations
between Washington and Havana, the Supreme Court has taken one option off
the table.

The high court¹s decision Monday not to review the case of the so-called
Cuban Five means the men convicted by a Miami jury in 2001 of being
unregistered foreign agents will languish in U.S. prison cells until and
unless President Obama pardons them as part of a deal to end the
50-year-long diplomatic standoff with the communist-ruled island.

If the Supreme Court had agreed to take the case, those in the
administration sounding out Cuban officials about boosting trade and easing
travel restrictions could have staved off Havana¹s insistent demands for the
men¹s release by pointing to the pending high-court review, claiming
reluctance to interfere with the judicial workings.

Freedom for the ³Five Heroes,² as the men are known in Cuba, is the No. 1
issue for Havana in any U.S.-Cuban rapprochement and a cause celebre for the
regime¹s portrayal of the United States as a hostile neighbor bent on its
destruction.

Cuban authorities and human rights lawyers have cast the prosecution and
jailing of the five as a political backlash by Miami¹s powerful Cuban exiles
after they lost the emotional custody battle over young Cuban castaway Elian
Gonzalez. The 5-year-old boy who miraculously survived a voyage of escape
that killed his mother and washed up on Florida shores on Thanksgiving Day
1999 was returned to his father in Cuba in 2000 over the fierce objections
of Miami relatives of his dead mother.

In the Cuban Five case, a Miami judge declined to move the trial to a venue
less dominated by Cuban exiles and the five were convicted of espionage,
primarily for surveillance of militant exile groups. The men¹s defense
lawyers argued their work wasn¹t spying, but rather efforts to infiltrate
and avert plots by the CIA-backed groups intent on assassinating
revolutionary leader Fidel Castro.{Not just Fidel -- Miami-based terrorist activates took the lives of ordinary Cuban citizens. "As Cuban journalist wrote in 1997 (before a number of violent terrorist acts took place or were thwarted):
" Cuba has suffered innumerable terrorist attacks over the last 37 years,
ever since the first such attempt, originating in Florida, was foiled on
February 2, 1959. The onslaught has not let up once, with the raids almost
always being based in U.S. territory.
These assaults have occasioned much loss of life and considerable material
damage on the island, and have had the singular characteristic that many
of their perpetrators described their misdeeds in well-attended press
conferences or personal interviews with journalists, especially in Miami.
Meanwhile, despite the notoriety of these terrorist groups which have
organized actions against Cuba from U.S. soil, and the fact that they have
boasted about training in and around Miami, in general they have not been
arrested, tried or sentenced for their crimes."
One of the worst terrorist acts Nicanor recalled was the firebombing of a childcare center in which 570 small children would have been incinerated if not for the quick action of firefighters, staff and neighbors. Victims of "anti-Castro" terrorist attacks have included young and old, men and women, campesinos and urban workers, citizens of other countries who died because men like Bosch, Posada, and others of their ilk were vainly trying to kill Castro.klw ]

On appeal four years later to the U.S. 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, a
three-judge panel agreed with the men that they couldn¹t have gotten a fair
trial in the supercharged atmosphere of Miami after the Elian fiasco. The
full 11th Circuit later reinstated the men¹s convictions, which will now
stand with the Supreme Court decision to pass on the case.

Alleged ringleader Gerardo Hernandez, who was also convicted of murder
conspiracy in the 1996 deaths of four pilots from the Brothers to the Rescue
group for allegedly passing information that helped the Cuban Air Force
shoot down the intruding aircraft, issued a statement through the Cuban
parliament denouncing the Supreme Court decision. Hernandez said the court's
refusal to review the case was further evidence that ³our case has been,
from the beginning, a political case.²

Ten Nobel laureates and dozens of foreign parliamentarians and rights
advocates had filed ³friend of the court² briefs in support of the Cuban
Five¹s petition for a high-court review.

U.S. advocates of better relations with Cuba have been encouraging the Obama
administration to consider pardoning and repatriating the Cuban Five as a
gesture to Havana that could spur human rights reforms on the island and the
expulsion of U.S. fugitives in Cuba.

LA Times article written by Carol J. Williams
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. It cannot be business as usual
so that means something is in the works.

It's time, past time, and the US wants good relations with Latin America.
Otherwise the Chinese etc. get their mitts on all the resources, etc.
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. Strange paragraph in the AP story that you linked




The Obama administration contended that the convictions were fairly won, and that high court review was unnecessary.

------

Sitting here wondering WHO in the Obama administration said that. Or could it be that the AP just threw that into the story, with no attribution?

Something else that had me puzzled were the arrests several days ago of the elderly couple accused of spying for Cuba. The arrests were announced THREE days after the OAS summit slapped down Hillary and company over the exclusion of Cuba from the OAS. The couple are accused of spying for Cuba for 30-plus years, and just now they were discovered?
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Just some reshuffling of the deck, but still the same game of poker.
The US/Cuba relations stand off continues, and will continue until there is no one named Castro as head of state of Cuba.

Americans know jack shit about Cuba (and don't really care, either) except that Castro is an evildoer. Once the Castros are gone US congress critters will have no "gravitas" to milk the American taxpayer teat to undermine Cuba's and America's freedoms.

Meanwhile ... While the US is selling off the national commons and cutting all social infrastructure, Cuba is continuing to build out it's health care, education and other social infrastructure - Cuba's much prized commons.

:hi:

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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. See the glass half full this time
Obama is not as imperialistic as the previous bunch. He knows that 70% of US citizens want the bloqueo to end.

It will end. I am sure. The only issue is the timing but longer than a few years is unlikely.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Hard to do. Considering the constancy of the loop.
Although I don't wish it to be, with some minor deviation the stand off will remain.

I hope I'm wrong.

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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yes maybe it's too soon to be optimistic
Now and then I see a light but it's just someone lighting a Cohiba, and they aren't thinking about "change".
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magbana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yeah, the comment that was attributed to the Obama administration . . .
was not linked to a particular person. I poked around on the Internet yesterday to see where it came from but came up empty-handed.

Another thought has come to me in the last few days. It could be that the Obama administration is piling up prisoners for a prisoner exchange in line with Cuba's wishes. Now we know that Cuba wants the Cuban 5 back, but the last stumbling block was a possible US Supreme Court review which would drag the case on FOREVER. Two weeks ago, I knew from a variety of people that the Supreme Court would issue their opinion on June 15 and by 9 am yesterday morning the decision was issued. This was all set up a long time ago. As I mentioned in a post to flamingdem, the US cannot be involved in any effort to exonerate the Five, but the US can exchange the convicted Five as a goodwill effort.

Now, the Meyers case. Perhaps they are on the Cuban's list of people they want. Well, before they can be exchanged as prisoners, they had to BECOME prisoners, right? If this couple has been spying for Cuba for 30 years, the least the Cubans owe them is a nice retirement on Varadero beach.

And we may see more mysterious things taking place. Stay tuned.

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magbana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
10. ALARCON: We Should Redouble Efforts in Favor of the Cuban Five
"The President of the Cuban Parliament pointed out that “the best answer
to this decision is to multiply our demands to the US Government and its
President, Barack Obama, so that they do what they have to do and that
is simply to release these five men who should have never been
imprisoned.”

Alarcon insisted that this should be the decision of the US
President “if we are to believe that there is any change and renovation
in the rhetoric of the current White House incumbent.”

acnnews 5
Alarcon: We Should Redouble Efforts in Favor of the Cuban Five

HAVANA, Cuba, June 16 (acn) The President of the Cuban Parliament,
Ricardo Alarcon, said it is time to redouble efforts in demanding the
release of five Cuban anti-terrorist fighters, who remain unjustly
imprisoned in the United States.

Alarcon’s statements came on the heels of a US Supreme Court decision on
Monday not to review the case of Gerardo Hernandez, Antonio Guerrero,
Ramon Labañino, Fernando Gonzalez, and Rene Gonzalez – internationally
known as the Cuban Five – who have been serving extremely long sentences
(including life terms) in US high security prisons, since they were
submitted to a biased trial in the US city of Miami in 2001.

These men, who were arrested by FBI agents in 1998, had been gathering
information on counterrevolutionary and extremist Cuban-American groups
that operate from South Florida with Washington’s complicity and have a
history of terrorist attacks on Cuba.

“Today is a day of shame and anger,” Alarcon said. “Shame for those who
believe in the justice of the US system, and anger for the thousands
around the world who asked the US Supreme Court to review the case,” he
added.

Alarcon explained that people in the United States do not have the right
to appeal to the Supreme Court and that this body only accepts to review
1-2% of requests.

The Cuban top legislator recalled that the US Supreme Court had never
before received a revision request supported by 10 Nobel Prize
laureates, full Parliaments (Mexico and Panama), European and world
parliamentarians, as well as by the main associations of jurists of the
world and the United States and the former UN Human Rights Commission.

“The judges chose to do what the Obama administration requested them to
do: refusing to review the case of the Five. That is why it is a day of
shame and anger,” Alarcon stressed.

The President of the Cuban Parliament pointed out that “the best answer
to this decision is to multiply our demands to the US Government and its
President, Barack Obama, so that they do what they have to do and that
is simply to release these five men who should have never been
imprisoned.”

Alarcon insisted that this should be the decision of the US
President “if we are to believe that there is any change and renovation
in the rhetoric of the current White House incumbent.”



Cuban5/ef/10:32

Alarcón: A redoblar la lucha por la libertad de Los Cinco


Cuban News Agency
www.cubanews.ain.cu
ainnews@ain.cu

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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Went back and re-read flamingdem's post on possible prisoner exchange
From flamingdem's post:
-------------------
Prisoner exchange

The US has called on Cuba to release political prisoners. Cuba is thought to keep more than 200 dissidents behind bars on account of their political views.

Mr Castro, referring to those prisoners, said to reporters: "These prisoners you talk about - they want us to let them go? They should tell us tomorrow.

"We'll send them with their families and everything. Give us back our five heroes. That is a gesture on both parts."

----------------

Very interesting. Perhaps there is something going on behind the scene. Interesting too that Alarcon is piling on the pressure directly on the shoulders of BO, basically telling him to put his money where his mouth is (or was at the OAS summit).

An exchange of 200 "dissidents behind bars" and their families for the Cuban Five and the Meyers ... hummmm

Sounds like a win-win for both sides, the "dissidents" could join their CANFer pals in Miami, Cuba would be rid of them and the Five and the Meyers would return to Cuba as heroes. And Barak would be rid of the international outcry on behalf of the Five.

Wonder if the Ditzy-Balarts and Loca-Lehtinen would support this?

But then again, who would get the NED money in Cuba from the U.S. Interests Section? :evilgrin:




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magbana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. If any kind of prisoner exchange takes place, I think Ileana and the Balart boys . . .
will bargain for a nice, new office building on Calle Ocho with the most modern of equipment so that the Cuban traitors/prisoners can continue their work of fomenting the overthrow of the Cuban government. Ileana, tenacious as always, will probably demand a pay increase for them as well.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Yes but no one will care
and the younsters will be planning their vacations in Playa del Este.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I was told about the probably prisoner exchange by
a Cuban who lives in the USA and whose family worked for the government.

This is not conjecture from a Cubaphile. They know the individuals and
apparently have info.

I will call again to see if I can get something more concrete!

This would be a good way to DEFANG Ditzy and Loca!! What a good set up
to show their new position as has-beens on Cuba policy.

I just realized this... of course all of us know that Obama is quite
the atrategist. He doesn't really like those CANF "folks".

Arriba!
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Obama switched position on the embargo in a speech to the CANFers.
The question needs to be asked of all stand offs and wars and conflicts and staged elections and staged election frauds - who benefits?

There is no transparency to US/Cuba relations, but I'd be willing to bet that the stand off will remain.

Don't forget, the She Wolf has AIPAC watching her back.


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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Question


You said:
----------------

a Cuban who lives in the USA and whose family worked for the government.

-------------

(Your sources' family worked for the Cuban government, or the U.S. government?)

---------------


I will call again to see if I can get something more concrete!

---------------------

(Will be looking foreward for any new tidbits you can ferret out.)

Thanks.

Oh, we are in contact with a Cuban academic in La Habana via email, but being a professor, he hesitates to discuss Cuba-U.S. politics openly. Except that in his New Year's greeting to us, he mentioned that he hoped the "bloqueo criminal" would be lifted by the BO administration.

We met him in S. Florida five years ago under difficult circumstances for him; the CANF had blocked his attendence at a seminar at a Florida university, so we put him up at our house for a few days.

The day he caught his flight back to Havana, we asked him if he needed anything and he only asked for the latest NYT Almanac, some Lipton tea for his wife (he picked out a small box of 50 teabags but we took it away from him and gave him two boxes of 100 bags each) and some chocolate candies (M&M) for his niece whom he adores.

It was a very personal way to realize the effects of the bloqueo, that such mundane items that we take for granted everyday are not available in Cuba because of the retrograde thinking in Washington to this day.







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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. Answer to your questions
This Cuban was born in Havana and left in the late 1960s to live in the US. The parents in question worked for the Cuban government. They did not leave in bad standing and still have contacts in the Cuban government.

I contact this person as a friend to discuss other topics, not usually Cuba, and last time got a whole political spiel that was unexpected. Says to me that the family is discussing the latest events and they are hopeful for change. Assuming they are hearing the Cuban side of things maybe they are too optimistic. The Cubans I have talked with on the island really like Obama and believe that he will usher in change. So perhaps they read the tea leaves with that perspective.

Here's a link that has some optimistic thoughts about the travel embargo.

http://democracyinamericas.org/think-tanks-expect-us-travel-cuba-open-fully-oct
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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. won't happen. the convi cted spies won't be traded for those who are imprisoned
for having views that differ from the Castro mummy brothers. it would certainly not be a win-win for Barack Obama. you know, our Democratic President who everyone supports here.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. While I agree w/you on the exchange not happening, your premise is BS.
Edited on Wed Jun-17-09 11:40 AM by Billy Burnett
Aside from their differing intentions, the "Cuban 5" were convicted of operating as unregistered agents working for a foreign entity (Cuba), and the Meyers will be prosecuted for such. Just as the "75" in Cuba were convicted of operating as unregistered agents working for a foreign entity (USA). An exchange of them might be some sort of quid pro quo, but the numbers of jailed unregistered foreign agents the US had in Cuba are far greater than the number Cuba has here.

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. yeah, that's the standard Cuban government propaganda
anyone who speaks agains the revolution is a paid agent of the US. there aren't really any dissidents in Cuba, just paid agents of a foreign government. all Cubans love their system of government and the Castro boys. Check with Mika to see if I got that right.



The Cuban 5 spies were sent by the Cuban government to the US to spy. No about that. Their appeal is actually based on their claim they didn't get a fair trial in Miami even though no Cuban Americans were on the jury. Well, that appeal didn't work now did it? again, both the Cuban government and any potential spies might want to consider the case of the "5" before making another attempt. Lesson learned by Fidel: The US justice system can't be counted on to advance the revolution.

The Americans accused of spying were spying on their own government in the US. They aren't going to be rewarded by having them sent to Cuba.

The Cubans imprisoned in Cuba are there because they speak out against the repressive Cuban regime and other ghastly counterrevolutionary thought crimes.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. So all of the US gov to Cuban dissident support money goes where?
At least the Meyers weren't on Cuba's payroll, unlike the so called dissidents arrested in Cuba.

You seem to be saying that the only opposition parties/movements in Cuba are US sponsored - one in the same. I'm not saying that. The domestically produced opposition movements in Cuba (not on the US payroll) constantly decry the US interventionism in Cuba - that tends to accomplish just what you seem to be promoting... that all "dissidents" are one and the same, some sort of monolith.

There are many other movements and parties in Cuba, some that espouse complete change in the system of government, that have nothing to do with US entities and who function within Cuba without any problems.

I don't need to check with Mika on this (as much fun as that can be). I've been there also. You?


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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. no, I am not saying that all opposition groups are sponsored by the US
I am saying that is the Cuban government's position as echoed by Mika.

no, I am not really interested in visiting Cuba under the Castro regime. if nothing else, I hear its not economical since the exchange rate for dollars is artifically controlled. I suppose its cheaper using the black market but I'd hate to put Cubans in jeopardy for violating revolutionary norms.

Plenty of other non-police state countries to visit in Latin America including Colombia, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Peru, Urugay. My next visit may be Ecuador.

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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Huh? How can that be the Cuba gov's position if other movements are functioning?
If that was the Cuban gov's position then wouldn't all of the opposition parties and movements be under arrest or jailed? They aren't.

I know that you've deliberately misstated Mika's position on this (why am I not surprised) because he and I have had many conversations on this very issue.

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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I didnt say that they were all arrested. why do you make that connection?
I didn't say all "opposition" or dissidents are arrested by the government. Do you think the government should pursue that policy?

I said it is the Cuban goverment's position is that dissidents are just paid US agents or mercenaries. I didn't say anything about roundup or arrest although Cuba has done that to some dissidents certainly.
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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. You are not making sense.
I said it is the Cuban goverment's position is that dissidents are just paid US agents or mercenaries.

Then why aren't they all locked up? What kind of two-bit authoritarian state is it if paid US agents or mercenaries are free and functioning?

But, before you said ...
I am not saying that all opposition groups are sponsored by the US

But if the Cuban gov says they are (a false claim by you.) then why are they free to oppose the government, especially considering that you claimed upthread that anyone who had views that differ from the Castro mummy brothers were imprisoned?

You are full of it. You don't know what you are talking about in this matter.





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Bacchus39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-18-09 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. ok, Cuba is the model country for openness and transparency
not to mention the mecca for personal freedoms not to mention political discourse.
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Zorro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-19-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
31. Those 5 convicted spies are going to serve out their terms
That's what happens when one plays the game and gets caught.

And there's not going to be any meaningful change in US-Cuba relations until Fifi and his bubba take a dirt nap.

The OAS took a step to make nice with Cuba, and they got back a big FU in return.
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