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VanW Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-01-10 11:59 PM
Original message
Strange item in the NY Post about Cuba

The NY Post has a gossip column that features "blind items" (gossip with the real names removed). Here is today's:


"WHICH members of Congress make regular, secret visits to Cuba as guests of Fidel Castro, flying in from nearby islands? Their passports aren't stamped, so no one's the wiser."

http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/just_asking_gaZUhx9JcwUKSxHdQakOEJ#ixzz0gzZ963Ve


This is a pretty unusual item. There are political gossip stories from time to time, but they are normally about who is diddling who or whatever. This seems like an attempt to "out" these congresspeople. Which is strange, because there is no way they are sneaking around: these are obviously back-channel talks.


Thoughts?
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rabs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. Odd item, but then it's the Post.
Edited on Tue Mar-02-10 01:39 AM by rabs
If there are back-channel talks, maybe it's about Gross, the guy who was was arrested in Havana a few weeks ago for smuggling laptops and sophisticaded satellite phones to "dissidents" in Cuba. :shrug:

Then again, maybe it is just some congresscritters sneaking into Cuba for cigars, Havana Club rum and maybe some "fun" on the side. :sarcasm:



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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. Isn't the Black Congressional Caucus the group that goes to Cuba?
Who else might it be?
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. My guess?
Puerto Rican congressman from NY visiting Cuba because he happens to be very left wing and friendly with Castro? Is Obama using him? Maybe.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. quien es?
I wanna know! I hope it's not a left version of Sanford in Argentina!!
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Jose Serrano, I think
I'm not American, so I looked up "Puerto Rican Congressman from New York" and I got a hit, a Democrat named Jose Serrano.

Then I looked up "Congressman Jose Serrano and Fidel Castro", and I got a ton of hits. Here's a quote I copied from the NY Times, quoting Serrano's statement to the media:

"Today’s news that Fidel Castro has retired from leading his nation proves yet again that this important figure defies the attempts of his critics to paint him simply as a power-hungry authoritarian. Instead, it proves that Castro sees clearly the long-term interests of the Cuban people and recognizes that they are best served by a carefully planned transition. Few leaders, having been on the front lines of history so long, would be able to voluntarily step aside in favor of a new, younger generation. In taking this action, Castro is ensuring that the changes he brought about will live on and grow."

I guess I made a good guess, LOL

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Congratulations, you've "outed" a fine Democratic Congressman
Jose Serrano, and exposed him in this clumsy atempt to harvest names of leftists to use against them.

Oddly, it's no secret, anyway, and if the author had bothered to take time away from his cheap, underhanded crappy job at Rupert Murdoch's goddawful "newspaper", he would have known what anyone who actually READS THE DAMNED NEWS already knew a long time ago.

I'm well aware of others, INCLUDING REPUBLCANS, from the Senate and the House who go there, and I'm not even about to tattle on them in response to this underhanded fishing expedidition. I've already mentioned them repeatedly in my posts for years, anyway.
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VanW Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. More likely Republicans than Dems being targeted in this "blind item"
...as Republicans have more to fear from their relationship with Castro being publicized, IMO. Lots of Dems go to Cuba publicly, with their passports stamped.
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. They should go to Cuba
I am opposed to the American embargo. I think lots of Americans should go to Cuba, and they should protest if they are not allowed to go.

But I think it's very funny, the man talked about the "new generation of leaders", and now the reality sets in, the new generation is Raul Castro and other very old men.

I was showing the man how easy it is to use Google to find things. I am not that interested in this subject, the Puerto Rican guy can be whatever he wants to be, say anything he wants to. Didn't the Americans vote for Bush? They can vote in the strangest ways.
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naaman fletcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. Because the Feds had no clue until he was "outed" on DU. yeah right. /nt
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Would that be
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 05:12 PM by dipsydoodle
Jamon Serrano's brother ?

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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
5. Regular Cuban Americans can go to Cuba as they please, - the rest of us can't (2nd class citizens).
Love the "as guests of Fidel Castro" part. :rofl:









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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-02-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. That's because you have special interests telling you what to do
Your democracy isn't working very well. Remember, your foreign policy is dictated by special interests. In the case of Cuba, it's the Cubans in Miami, in the case of the Middle East, it's the Israel lobby and its agents. I do wonder, why did you help Ethiopia invade Somalia? It was such a stupid thing to do, and you don't even have an Ethiopian lobby.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. And what special interests pushed Cuba to universal health care and higher ed?
The people.

The people demanded these things, and they made it happen. Not Castro.

That is one of the amazing things about the place (Cuba), although completely unknown to most Americans - who seem the adamantly uninformed.










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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Please comment about bio-fuel
I have a Cuban friend who tells me the Cubans were earnestly working on a bio-fuels program until Fidel read an article by Atilio Boron about biofuels, and the program got stopped cold. Seems the people propose, and Fidel disposes - even after retirement.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. For the comprehension challenged - UN Rep Praises Cuba Biofuel Stance
UN Rep Praises Cuba Biofuel Stance
http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/view/6082/1/291/

United Nations, Oct 26 - The UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food, Swiss academician Jean Ziegler, Friday called Cuba"s rejection to divert crops for the production of biofuels strong and very good.

"If food production is destined to create fuel in a world where more than 100,000 persons die daily due to famine or its consequences, then there would be a massacre," Ziegler told Prensa Latina news agency.

The UN expert in that human rights sector presented a report to the UN General Assembly in which he emphasizes his serious concern about the continuous growth of global famine levels.

In that sense, Ziegler praised the work Cuba does to guarantee the right of all its citizens to food, despite restrictions from the over 50-year US economic blockade on the Caribbean country.

The UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food is scheduled to visit Cuba from October 28 to November 9, heading a five-member delegation to collect information to include in a special report on the right to food in Cuba.



The Cubaphobes have a single "argument" against Cuba ....

Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. How sad our corporate media ALWAY will refrain from publishing any material praising
Cuba's accomplishments acquired through great struggle, and handicaps beyond anything any other country has endured under the longest lasting embargo (bloqueo) in history.

They also turned their backs on the fantastic comments by the President of the World Bank, as you remember.

Thanks, a lot, Mika. :hi:
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. The corporate anglers prefer profiteering off of the suffering (commoditization) of hungry children.
There's tons of money to be made.












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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. They don't realize how much they NEED suffering people. If they run out of people they can fleece,
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 03:42 PM by Judi Lynn
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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Biofuels and Food
Are compatible. Brazil has a huge biofuel industry, it seems to work quite well for them. The UN raporteur seems to have missed a point: there's sufficient land and water to grow both biofuels and food. People go hungry because the food is distributed unevenly, they have overpopulated the land and/or destroyed the environment, or their government is run by fools - Mugabe in Zimbabwe, Kim in North Korea come to mind.

You also fail to address a very simple point: Cuba and Venezuela were planning to invest in biofuels, until Fidel came up with his famous Atilio Boron quote. So it seems Cubans who are fairly high up in the Cuban government, as well as individuals such as Rafael Ramirez, president of PDVSA, thought biofuels were a good idea until Castro wrote his bit. And this tells me the US Congressman comment about Fidel handing power over to a new, younger generation was wrong. Which is the point I wanted to make. :-)
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-03-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. THE INTERNATIONALIZATION OF GENOCIDE April, 2007
Keep in mind the news stories being referred to were breaking in 2007, its a very prescient article relating to the topic.


THE INTERNATIONALIZATION OF GENOCIDE
http://www.cuba.cu/gobierno/discursos/2007/ing/f030407i.html

The Camp David meeting has just come to an end. All of us followed the press conference offered by the presidents of the United States and Brazil attentively, as we did the news surrounding the meeting and the opinions voiced in this connection.
Faced with demands related to customs duties and subsidies which protect and support US ethanol production, Bush did not make the slightest concession to his Brazilian guest at Camp David.
President Lula attributed to this the rise in corn prices, which, according to his own statements, had gone up more than 85 percent.
Before these statements were made, the Washington Post had published an article by the Brazilian leader which expounded on the idea of transforming food into fuel.
It is not my intention to hurt Brazil or to meddle in the internal affairs of this great country. It was in effect in Rio de Janeiro, host of the United Nations Conference on Environment and Development, exactly 15 years ago, where I delivered a 7-minute speech vehemently denouncing the environmental dangers that menaced our species’ survival. Bush Sr., then President of the United States, was present at that meeting and applauded my words out of courtesy; all other presidents there applauded, too.
No one at Camp David answered the fundamental question. Where are the more than 500 million tons of corn and other cereals which the United States, Europe and wealthy nations require to produce the gallons of ethanol that big companies in the United States and other countries demand in exchange for their voluminous investments going to be produced and who is going to supply them? Where are the soy, sunflower and rape seeds, whose essential oils these same, wealthy nations are to turn into fuel, going to be produced and who will produce them?
Some countries are food producers which export their surpluses. The balance of exporters and consumers had already become precarious before this and food prices had skyrocketed. In the interests of brevity, I shall limit myself to pointing out the following:
According to recent data, the five chief producers of corn, barley, sorghum, rye, millet and oats which Bush wants to transform into the raw material of ethanol production, supply the world market with 679 million tons of these products. Similarly, the five chief consumers, some of which also produce these grains, currently require 604 million annual tons of these products. The available surplus is less than 80 million tons of grain.
This colossal squandering of cereals destined to fuel production —and these estimates do not include data on oily seeds—shall serve to save rich countries less than 15 percent of the total annual consumption of their voracious automobiles.
At Camp David, Bush declared his intention of applying this formula around the world. This spells nothing other than the internationalization of genocide.
In his statements, published by the Washington Post on the eve of the Camp David meeting, the Brazilian president affirmed that less than one percent of Brazil’s arable land was used to grow cane destined to ethanol production. This is nearly three times the land surface Cuba used when it produced nearly 10 million tons of sugar a year, before the crisis that befell the Soviet Union and the advent of climate changes.
Our country has been producing and exporting sugar for a longer time. First, on the basis of the work of slaves, whose numbers swelled to over 300 thousand in the first years of the 19th century and who turned the Spanish colony into the world’s number one exporter. Nearly one hundred years later, at the beginning of the 20th century, when Cuba was a pseudo-republic which had been denied full independence by US interventionism; it was immigrants from the West Indies and illiterate Cubans alone who bore the burden of growing and harvesting sugarcane on the island. The scourge of our people was the off-season, inherent to the cyclical nature of the harvest. Sugarcane plantations were the property of US companies or powerful Cuban-born landowners. Cuba, thus, has more experience than anyone as regards the social impact of this crop.
This past Sunday, April 1, the CNN televised the opinions of Brazilian experts who affirm that many lands destined to sugarcane have been purchased by wealthy Americans and Europeans.
As part of my reflections on the subject, published on March 29, I expounded on the impact climate change has had on Cuba and on other basic characteristics of our country’s climate which contribute to this.
On our poor and anything but consumerist island, one would be unable to find enough workers to endure the rigors of the harvest and to care for the sugarcane plantations in the ever more intense heat, rains or droughts. When hurricanes lash the island, not even the best machines can harvest the bent-over and twisted canes. For centuries, the practice of burning sugarcane was unknown and no soil was compacted under the weight of complex machines and enormous trucks. Nitrogen, potassium and phosphate fertilizers, today extremely expensive, did not yet even exist, and the dry and wet months succeeded each other regularly. In modern agriculture, no high yields are possible without crop rotation methods.
On Sunday, April 1, the French Press Agency (AFP) published disquieting reports on the subject of climate change, which experts gathered by the United Nations already consider an inevitable phenomenon that will spell serious repercussions for the world in the coming decades.
According to a UN report to be approved next week in Brussels, climate change will have a significant impact on the American continent, generating more violent storms and heat waves and causing droughts, the extinction of some species and even hunger in Latin America.
The AFP report indicates that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) forewarned that at the end of this century, every hemisphere will endure water-related problems and, if governments take no measures in this connection, rising temperatures could increase the risks of mortality, contamination, natural catastrophes and infectious diseases.
In Latin America, global warming is already melting glaciers in the Andes and threatening the Amazon forest, whose perimeter may slowly be turned into a savannah, the cable goes on to report.
Because a great part of its population lives near the coast, the United States is also vulnerable to extreme natural phenomena, as hurricane Katrina demonstrated in 2005.
According to AFP, this is the second of three IPCC reports which began to be published last February, following an initial scientific forecast which established the certainty of climate change.
This second 1400-page report which analyzes climate change in different sectors and regions, of which AFP has obtained a copy, considers that, even if radical measures to reduce carbon dioxide emissions that pollute the atmosphere are taken, the rise in temperatures around the planet in the coming decades is already unavoidable, concludes the French Press Agency.
As was to be expected, at the Camp David meeting, Dan Fisk, National Security advisor for the region, declared that “in the discussion on regional issues, Cuba to come up (…) if there's anyone that knows how to create starvation, it's Fidel Castro. He also knows how not to do ethanol”.
As I find myself obliged to respond to this gentleman, it is my duty to remind him that Cuba’s infant mortality rate is lower than the United States’. All citizens —this is beyond question—enjoy free medical services. Everyone has access to education and no one is denied employment, in spite of nearly half a century of economic blockade and the attempts of US governments to starve and economically asphyxiate the people of Cuba.
China would never devote a single ton of cereals or leguminous plants to the production of ethanol, and it is an economically prosperous nation which is breaking growth records, where all citizens earn the income they need to purchase essential consumer items, despite the fact that 48 percent of its population, which exceeds 1.3 billion, works in agriculture. On the contrary, it has set out to reduce energy consumption considerably by shutting down thousands of factories which consume unacceptable amounts of electricity and hydrocarbons. It imports many of the food products mentioned above from far-off corners of the world, transporting these over thousands of miles.
Scores of countries do not produce hydrocarbons and are unable to produce corn and other grains or oily seeds, for they do not even have enough water to meet their most basic needs.
At a meeting on ethanol production held in Buenos Aires by the Argentine Oil Industry Chamber and Cereals Exporters Association, Loek Boonekamp, the Dutch head of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD)’s commercial and marketing division, told the press that governments are very much enthused about this process but that they should objectively consider whether ethanol ought to be given such resolute support.
According to Boonekamp, the United States is the only country where ethanol can be profitable and, without subsidies, no other country can make it viable.
According to the report, Boonekamp insists that ethanol is not manna from Heaven and that we should not blindly commit to developing this process.
Today, developed countries are pushing to have fossil fuels mixed with biofuels at around five percent and this is already affecting agricultural prices. If this figure went up to 10 percent, 30 percent of the United States’ cultivated surface and 50 percent of Europe’s would be required. That is the reason Boonekamp asks himself whether the process is sustainable, as an increase in the demand for crops destined to ethanol production would generate higher and less stable prices.
Protectionist measures are today at 54 cents per gallon and real subsidies reach far higher figures.
Applying the simple arithmetic we learned in high school, we could show how, by simply replacing incandescent bulbs with fluorescent ones, as I explained in my previous reflections, millions and millions of dollars in investment and energy could be saved, without the need to use a single acre of farming land.
In the meantime, we are receiving news from Washington, through the AP, reporting that the mysterious disappearance of millions of bees throughout the United States has edged beekeepers to the brink of a nervous breakdown and is even cause for concern in Congress, which will discuss this Thursday the critical situation facing this insect, essential to the agricultural sector. According to the report, the first disquieting signs of this enigma became evident shortly after Christmas in the state of Florida, when beekeepers discovered that their bees had vanished without a trace. Since then, the syndrome which experts have christened as Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) has reduced the country’s swarms by 25 percent.
Daniel Weaver, president of the US Beekeepers Association, stated that more than half a million colonies, each with a population of nearly 50 thousand bees, had been lost. He added that the syndrome has struck 30 of the country’s 50 states. What is curious about the phenomenon is that, in many cases, the mortal remains of the bees are not found.
According to a study conducted by Cornell University, these industrious insects pollinate crops valued at anywhere from 12 to 14 billion dollars.
Scientists are entertaining all kinds of hypotheses, including the theory that a pesticide may have caused the bees’ neurological damage and altered their sense of orientation. Others lay the blame on the drought and even mobile phone waves, but, what’s certain is that no one knows exactly what has unleashed this syndrome.
The worst may be yet to come: a new war aimed at securing gas and oil supplies that can take humanity to the brink of total annihilation.
Invoking intelligence sources, Russian newspapers have reported that a war on Iran has been in the works for over three years now, since the day the government of the United States resolved to occupy Iraq completely, unleashing a seemingly endless and despicable civil war.
All the while, the government of the United States devotes hundreds of billions to the development of highly sophisticated technologies, as those which employ micro-electronic systems or new nuclear weapons which can strike their targets an hour following the order to attack.
The United States brazenly turns a deaf ear to world public opinion, which is against all kinds of nuclear weapons.
Razing all of Iran’s factories to the ground is a relatively easy task, from the technical point of view, for a powerful country like the United States. The difficult task may come later, if a new war were to be unleashed against another Muslim faith which deserves our utmost respect, as do all other religions of the Near, Middle or Far East, predating or postdating Christianity.
The arrest of English soldiers at Iran’s territorial waters recalls the nearly identical act of provocation of the so-called “Brothers to the Rescue” who, ignoring President Clinton’s orders advanced over our country’s territorial waters. Cuba’s absolutely legitimate and defensive action gave the United States a pretext to promulgate the well-known Helms-Burton Act, which encroaches upon the sovereignty of other nations besides Cuba. The powerful media have consigned that episode to oblivion. No few people attribute the price of oil, at nearly 70 dollars a gallon as of Monday, to fears of a possible invasion of Iran.
Where shall poor Third World countries find the basic resources needed to survive?
I am not exaggerating or using overblown language. I am confining myself to the facts.
As can be seen, the polyhedron has many dark faces.


April 3, 2007
Fidel Castro Ruz












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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Fidel is wrong
If we look at the evolution of biofuels in Brazil, which is the classic example of an efficient and profitable biofuel industry, we can see that Fidel Castro's opinion is way off the mark. He bases himself on flawed premises. I realize there have been arguments on the pros and cons, but the key is to understand the nature of the biofuels industries. There are two types: the heavily subsidized and inefficient industry in the USA and Europe, which are indeed of very little use and contribute to higher food prices. And the highly efficient and very profitable Brazilian model, which is highly profitable.

It is also important to point out the following: People who live in the countryside in Latin America are poorer than those who live in the urban centers. To improve their lives, it's important for private agriculture to develop so that the small producer and individual worker see their labor rewarded, and this requires competition for their labor. This implies there should be pressure in the system to increase the cultivated areas, and this is what biofuels do in Brazil - they increase demand for labor, and this increases wages, the amount of time people are employed, and therefore drives up their standard of living.

Fidel, by emphasizing a policy which drives the price of agricultural products down, is just looking out for the urban class, and for Cuba, which happens to import a lot of the food it consumes (due to the inefficiency of the nationalized agricultural sector, not because Cuba lacks land or water).

The key is to understand how market forces work: as demand for a product goes up, prices go up, and as individuals and companies see the sector become more profitable, they invest in it, and satisfy demand. This is a basic principle ignored by many, who also tend to be impatient and expect things to happen immediately. And this is what we have observed in Brazil, where the biofuels industry has really helped the national economy, led to a more environmentally sound fuels industry, and helped the individuals living in the countryside. Unlike Castro, President Lula da Silva understands very well this simple idea, and is heavily engaged trying to convince other nations to develop their biofuels industries - which of course also creates a field for Brazilians to use their expertise and invest outside Brazil.

I read the original post by Castro when it came out, and I realized he was just trying to argue so that food prices would stay low, without understanding the full cycle issues. But I was very disappointed when I saw, as a result of Castro's ideas, that PDVSA had discontinued what had been a very intelligent biofuels industrial and agricultural plan. I guess the dinosaur won, and bright young Venezuelans working in the Ministry and PDVSA lost. Like they lost in Cuba.

I am not a farmer, but the best thing that can happen to Latin America would be to see the price of food go up, which in turn will make farmers earn more. This in turn will slow down or possibly reverse the flow of people to urban centers, where they live in bad conditions in slums, with the cities choked with too many vehicles, and too many people.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Sounds like we need to make the pie higher.












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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. And control population growth
The world economy should be steered towards sustainable growth, but this is impossible with current technology unless we control population growth. Biofuels are a partial answer, but we have to factor in the exhaustion of phosphate reserves (not now, but it'll be a problem in 50 years), fresh water resources, and land availability.

Not all land can be used for agriculture. For example, one reason why there's a problem with hydropower in Venezuela is the misuse of land in the Caroni River watershed (the Caroni feeds the Guri hydropower system). Mining activities in the watershed lead to faster water runoff, which in turn means there's less water stored for the dry season. A similar problem happened in Brazil several years ago at their Itaipu dam. Thus we have to preserve the forests where this is called for.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Interesting comments. Especially so being that Cuba won top position by WWF for sustainability.
Maybe Cuba is a model to be looking at, and I know you don't support the US sanctions on Cuba. Maybe we really should take an unbiased look? Right?


WWF +sustainability +Cuba
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=WWF+%2Bsustainability+%2BCuba&btnG=Google+Search










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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. I don't think Cuba is a good model
They can't produce enough food to feed themselves, because they nationalized agriculture. China was in the same shape, then they privatized agriculture, and today they export food. Cuba in a sense is an aberration, held in a static condition by dogma. And it's fundamentally marxist dogma, which is known to be based on a flawed analysis. This flaw leads to economic failure, and it's not sustainable at all - the reason why Eastern Europeans, Russians, and other nations in the Former Union fled from communism as soon as the Soviet Union disappeared.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-04-10 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Can you point me to info on completely self sustaining E European & fmr. USSR nations?
Thanks.









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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Self sustaining in which sense?
Do you mean self sustaining in agriculture, or having a positive current account?
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Self sustaining in AG.
As you might know, China exports food, but there are millions starving there.

The US exports food also, but there are reports all over google about starving Americans, and children at great risk because of this.

Exports of food isn't an indicator of self sustainability. Find a nation that does not import food.

So, your contrarian accusation against Cuba is that they can't feed themselves - while they are an accredited global leader in sustainability by a leading and respected organization that, unlike the various anti Cuba human rights NGO and GO detractors, has done its own study with its own people on the ground.

Please point me to this knowledge base of yours on the overwhelming successes of total food self sustainability of the numerous capitalist nations.

Thanks.













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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. many nations are net exporters
In Cuba's case, it's a net importer. Being located on a warm semi tropical island, with plenty of land and water, and nothing better to do, the Cubans should be self sustaining, on a net basis, in food. They are not, because the communist system fails to deliver the right incentives. Evidently many nations are net food exporters, for example Argentina, Chile, Australia, and of course the USA and European Union.

Countries in Eastern Europe and the Former Soviet Union may or may not be net food exporters, but they are a) recovering from communism, which inflicts heavy damage on the economy, and b) tend to be industrialized, or in very cold and/or dry climates, which of course makes agriculture less attractive.

It's a very simple point, really. Cuba isn't a good example of a self sustaining agricultural model because Cuba is a communist country, run using marxist dogma, which is known to be flawed. You can tap dance around it if you want to, but this is just the way it is. Marxism doesn't work because the basic premise that value derives from the work inputs, is wrong. When communists atempt to build a society on a flawed premise, they are building on a weak foundation, and this makes whatever they are building collapse. Ergo their constructs are always flawed, and definitely not self-sustaining.

Cuba can become self sustaining in agriculture, and also have a small but viable biofuels industry. But to achieve this they would have to move away from the communist model, to one which allows private ownership of land and the means of production. This is what makes Chile so wealthy when compared to Cuba. Of course, it's important to avoid monopolies, and to keep the private sector made up of smaller businesses, rather than allow the emergence of giants, which tend to swallow the governemnt as they gain power. The ideal would be to have a government truly divided into several co-equal branches, and the private sector also divided into many smaller players. This allows the citizen to swim in a tank filled with smaller sharks.
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-05-10 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. No links to info on self sustaining E European nations, I see.
You could work for Cubanet. Ultra tap dancing (aka: fabricating BS) with their "some people say' type of "reporting"(hearsay). "Recovering from communism". :rofl:

You know near zero about Cuba, and you add proof to the heap of bullshit you've piled up here with just about every post on the topic.












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protocol rv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-10 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Wait a second
Are you telling us you really believe communism works? Why?
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