all this talk about primarying Obama

is a prime example why a lot of average lo-info swing voters do not think that Liberals can handle the responsibility of governing.

It reinforces the stereotype of Liberals as a bunch of wild-eyed idealist college students more interested in rebel-rousing and posturing than really governing.

Whether or not you want to accept it, Obama is about as Left as the country is going to go for right now. the idea that primarying him could produce a more Liberal candidate that could actually win a national election is pretty far out. I'm not trying to be a dick, but honestly the idea is naive.

If the Left tries to primary Obama, it will make us look like bafoons to the general public. It will erode public support for Progressive issues and candidates and almost certainly hand the presidency back over to the real bafoons, the GOP who will then load the Supreme Court with Neanderthals only too happy to drag us back to the stoneage with them.

Of course, the Anti-Obama crowd will get to enjoy the selfish emotional satisfaction of making their principled statement, BUT THE MILLIONS OF AMERICANS SUFFERING ECONOMIC INJUSTICE AND LOOKING FOR US FOR HELP COULD GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOUR PRINCIPLED STATEMENT. THEY WANT HELP.

I'm one of the most Lefty people around and I've come to terms with the fact that the country is not as Left as me. There will be a lot of painful compromise along the road to Liberalizing our country. There's no way around it. I've been disappointed with Obama, sometimes deeply, some things I'm not so sure about. But I do know that he is pushing a pretty Progressive agenda and if he is successful, it will strike a great blow to conservatism in general and set the stage for more and more Liberal leaders and progress in the future.

Seeing half of DU clamour for his head just one year into his presidency makes me want to puke.
Frankly I'm losing my faith in the Left's ability to be a positive force in America; most would rather posture and shit talk than help.

I don't know why some folks don't understand that you cannot start from where you want to be, you have to start from where you are. You have to work for what you want, whether that means pushing Obama, pushing Congress (both, hopefully) or some other action.

The root of "progressive" is "progress" (hat tip to grantcart). We see what we want, and we work to make progress toward that goal. It won't happen overnight, and it won't be easy, but I think it's worth it.

To just throw one's hands up and say, "Obama isn't doing what I want, or isn't doing it fast enough so I'm going to go look for someone better" is, frankly, silly and a losing proposition.

... if they want to have any chance.

The man poops gold coins.

raising pots of money to get out there and March With The Teabaggers.

.... ok, maybe that's not funny. IT'S A TRAP!!!! :wtf:

There's a reason Kucinich got pretty much nowhere in the 2008 primary. Progressives are not in the majority. Some can threaten to be spoilers in 2012 to push the President out of office, but the numbers for a majority of votes just aren't there for their assumed dream candidates. Pick your reason.

As someone said on another thread, people who don't have a good understanding of Louisiana demographics think it's just a simple matter of replacing Blue Dog Mary Landrieu with a more progressive candidate. It may be, if your constituents lean progressive, which in a state where David Duke isn't a total pariah, they definitely do not.

Kucinich got like what 5% in a primary of nothing but Democrats.
I don't think it's so much that he's Liberal as that he lacks charisma and gravitas.
I don't think there are any hard Lefty people out there with the necessary charisma and gravitas to take it all the way in a presidential race right now.
A lot of people who could get a seat in Congress, but that's about it.

ooze charisma.

against John Kerry, and neither did Howard Dean.

Look, I was one of those here at this site having to respond to Clark being
called a warmonger, a Clinton puppet, loving the SOA, a corporatist,
and that he was a closet Republican.

I know for a fact that we have convenient memories....
but I know that Wes Clark is no more progressive than Barack Obama...

and I don't think he would bother running against a sitting Democratic President.
He loves his country too much, and he doesn't want Republicans to win.
Plus he would be 68 years old in 2012.

I thought Obama was Dean 2.0. I was betrayed.

was Obama supposed to beat up LieberSatan in front of everyone or something?

Instead he shat on Dean.

a staffer ran his mouth.

there is a difference.

Obama brought a lot of Centrists in to his staff because they had a reputation for accomplishment, we are now seeing the weakspot in that strategy, but it's still a good strategy.

There may be understandable anger on here, very much misdirected in my view, but it has been the Bush wing of the Democratic Caucus in the Senate holding the Party to ransom. Emasculating every key vote not by arguing it out in the Democratic Caucus, but by threatening their own personal veto of legislation unless, like a two year old child, they get their way over everyone else.

They have had no consequence for that behavior, so I can certainly understand the anger.

the Left isn't being disloyal, just adopting shitty strategy.

where the Left get's it wrong is blaming Obama for the shitheads in the Senate.

Hell, if the Left focused hard to a while on Maine, we could have two more seats and Lieberman and Nelson could go to Hell.

why are we talking about primarying Obama, when, like you said, the problem is the Senate?

so the only conclusion I can come to is that SOME have been waiting and have an specific agenda to want to implement and it will not be good for the party..

Maine needs to wake the fuck up and realize they are Liberal state that needs to be sending Liberal fucking Democrats to the Senate for fucks sake!

we need to focus on other blue and purple states with Repug Senators. We can't do shit about Conservative Democrats in Conservative states. It's either them or Repug -not much difference, but we might as well keep them and get a few votes out of them hear and there when we can while we work on the other states.

For us to try to take her out is just stupid beyond belief.

Hekate

He's a perfect example of an irresponsible libby blowhard.

He'll never get anything done or contribute to anything getting done. He's even voting with the Republicans against HCR.

I grew up in NE Ohio and I remember well his term as Mayor of Cleveland. There's no way he's fit to be President, I wouldn't trust him to run a hot dog stand.

But libs just love him because he says all the right things and is a Noble Failure.

I write nothing on DU that I do not write in my almost daily letters to the White House.

I do not advocate any views on DU that I do not support with financial contributions to organizations to promote those views (to the tune of about $2500 in 2009).

My political views are based on principles, not party. My assessment of the President's performance is based on my reference principles, which include holding a candidate accountable for what they promise while campaigning.

The only place the President can be held accountable is during the primaries. Any sane person has no choice but to vote anti-Republican in the general election, if only as the lesser of two evils.

If I didn't support Obama, I wouldn't waste my time sending him my letters of both support and criticism, nor would I waste my mostly non-deductible donations supporting organizations that keep pressure on him to represent people's interests over others competing for his time.

It isn't as simple as just for/against.

There is nothing more simple-minded than just voting or supporting a political party and platform. You can do that without even flipping a coin.

on the issues we care about, and if Obama spent the next 2 years ignoring us, I would understand there being talk about a primary. But I don't think he's ignored us at all and he's pushed for a lo of things we believe in.

If we are on the Left, the first group of people we have the best chance of Liberalizing are the mainstream Democrats that are closer to the center by a few degrees. The Left will alienate those people if we are too quick to splinter off and start shooting our own people every time a bill gets watered down in Congress.

but I'm not certain that making deal with pharmaceutical companies was in the people's interest. And I've watched the videos and reviewed the transcripts and he clearly did campaign on a public option, and the untruth he told about that bothers more than a failure to deliver. He's disappointed me in other areas, too.

However, to we learned that he's creating an office for declassification of documents. Of course, the proof will in what is declassified.

From my perspective, it isn't the mainstream Democrats alienating the Left, it's the other way around. Trying to be objective, I guess back-and-forth charges alienate both sides.

Here's my fear: I know others like me who are saying that, if the marginalization of the Left by mainstream Democrats continues, they won't be voting for the opposition because they won't be voting at all.

If the Democratic Party loses the Left, they had better hope that the Teabaggers hurt the Republican Party just as badly.

I believe that there are a growing number of Americans who see the mainstream political parties as the problem. I'm one of them.

to stop him if he didn't cut a deal.

Like fighting two people at once is easy that fighting three. It's a questionable call, and I think it's in one of those grey areas where you can't say for sure if it was the smart thing to do or not, but he got something through when most thought it impossible so, who knows...

If the teabaggers really do break away from the GOP, then I think it represents a great chance for the Left to pull away too without fear of just handing things over to the Repugs. This would greatly undermine corporate influence in Washington and possibly push Obama to the Left a little, but we are yet to see how serious the baggers are. Time will tell.

Even then though, I wonder if we are better served focusing on Liberalizing Congress more than going after Obama. It feels like Congress is a much bigger problem then he is right now.

President Obama.

The Tea baggers, aside from their over the top rhetoric , have a valid point that the government is out of control. The left could use a wing that approaches big business and a government in its hands from another more controlled perspective. Our government needs fundamental change and change in many area, big change, or we are toast. The free market is not free now and the government is keeping it that way. That is opposite of what the government is supposed to do. Everything is too big to fail. big companies are paying off the government to avoid change and we are taking the hit. candidates getting contributions from these big concerns have to tow the line. that is perpetuation.

But be careful about saying anything about Teabaggers that sounds remotely sympathetic on DU. I believe the Teabaggers on the "Right" and the Progressives ("Fringe Left") on the "Left" are both reacting to the same basic concern--government no longer represents the people. I hope that Progressives distinguish themselves from Teabaggers in their fundamental principles, intelligence, and their lack of xenophobia.

I agree that the system of government itself has been corrupted. While I have an obligation to play the game to some degree, I do it with the belief that meaningful change cannot be achieved by playing the two-party game. The Democrat/Republican and Left/Right battles have been institutionalized and are a distraction from the real problem, which you correctly point out is the takeover of government my business interests.

Welcome to DU. I've only been posting three weeks myself.

give them info and let them know that Liberals hate big corporations just as much as they do.

Obama is very much establishment. If the left does not make itself felt and become a concern Obama will let things go. he will move right to appease independents leaning that direction. he needs pressure to cut his ties with big business. On health care he did not do that. large private concerns should not run government. Big companies now rule us.

Let the voters decide. I think we still live in a democracy. :)

but there is a difference between having a right to do something and that something actually being the smart thing to do.

as a group of people with similar goals -shouldn't we give some thought to a winning strategy to achieve those goals? And when a few people in that group want to scuttle everything one year into a four year process, is it any surprise that a lot of the people involved find the idea a little defeatist and stupid?

For a guy who bragged about how he can ignore us b/c we have no place else to go, they sure throw a fit whenever we threaten to go somewhere else.

Suggesting a primary opponent is the logical step in a political negotiation when one party brags that they can ignore you precisely because you have no one else to turn to.

Rahm is one loud mouthed asshole. Why should we turn on each other over one stupid comment from a guy that executes policy, doesn't write it?

This is one more example of how so many on the Left are just way to reactionary, way too sensitive and way too ready to scapegoat anyone or anything as the reason why they can't fight on anymore.

a lot of people are losing patience with the Left's inability to accept compromise as a major component to governing successfully, and I'm one of them. If the Left can't compromise than the Left will get nothing and the country will suffer. The GOP wont compromise and look, they are totally irrelevant -that's the last place I want the Left to be.

what good are any of our Progressive principles if we never accomplish anything?

I'll agree that he's a loud mouthed asshole, but he's also Obama's hand picked loudmouthed asshole.
When Rahm tosses out his Screw the Left statements with no correction whatsoever from Obama, it certainly seems Obama supports the attitude. If he doesn't but won't slap Rahm down, he's utterly spineless.
Either way, Rahm is costing him an awful lot of the people that worked so hard for him.

Single payer, public option, triggers, removing anti-trust exemption, medicare buy-in

Those are all compromises "the left" has had to make on this healthcare bill.

Where have the Blue Dogs budged even once? Seems like the DLC/New Democrats are the ones who have problems with the concept of compromise.

and they know it.

if we don't accept that as a basic fact on the field of battle, we cannot address it meaningfully.

for right now, compromise is the only path to get anything, not just HCR, all the other Progressive priorities too.

that's of now.

I'd like to steer the convo back to Maine though, there's where we outmanuver the Blue Dogs.

will be responsive to his supporters. If he is not, we will support someone who will. It was good enough for Kennedy v. Carter, it should be good enough for Obama.

for the next two years, sure.

But he hasn't ignored us this year, so I don't really get why people are talking about it now other than they are missing the forest for the trees -or angry that he was willing to compromise in a way that they weren't.

Cause he'd never sell em out, not ever.

Hilarious.

Even "bafoonish"....:rofl: :patriot: :hide: :nuke:

Pass the barf bags.....I need one too and I am way left of the political main-stream. I understand the frustration on the left but some of the crap thrown out here in the last few weeks is beyond unbelievable.

"Frankly I'm losing my faith in the Left's ability to be a positive force in America; most would rather posture and shit talk than help."

Most? You know this?

The left has always been the most loyal and most hardworking part of the party. you need to break out the books and read up before you
make a remark like that. This health care bill is shit. its complete corporate payola shit and people are already getting pissed in my
town about the mandate part. its even being investigated for constitutionality.

No one gets a pass. Primaries keep people honest. of course, you have the right to disagree but calling names to your opponents in this
opinion war is sad. way too sad for words.

then we can't get anything done.
If we can't get anything done, then we are no longer a force for good.
We're no longer a force at all.

That's what I mean.
the Left of the past = fucking awesome
the Left of today = heartbreakingly defeatist

The once thought of settled Party positions have not just been compromised buut destroyed by Republican voting Democratic Congress Members. Abortion and the right of a woman to choose was a settled Party position for years. Not for Nelson or Stupak though.

Universal health care was a settled Party position. Not for the Bush dog Senators that just had to remove the compromise position that was the Public option.

I have not seen Franken rushing to kill the bill through personal veto, granted by a solid GOP Congressional Caucus, I can not say the same of the Bush Dogs.

it's working to get more Liberal Democrats into Congress -specifically the Senate.

I'd rather hear about trying to pick off Repugs and Corporate Dems in blue states than anything about Obama.

There are some on this board who are following the twisted logic of PUMAs, who if they could not have Hillary wanted McCain.

More Republicans are not the answer.

Dealing with people who act like prima donnas and petulant children is. That has to mean getting Reid to punish those who flagrantly threaten the Party.

How many PUMAs and Kucinichites and Naderites are trolling this board attacking Obama?

When the Dean-bashing started and the PO was taken out of the healthcare bill.

one of his staff did. Staff occasionally go off script to the chagrin of their boss.

Obama didn't kill the PO, the Blue Dogs did.

And probably not much from that, either.

Your comment is irrelevant to anything, and means nothing.

OP talks about 'The Left' the way a pre-pubescent boy talks about women.

AT this point, you can talk to the hand!

I've always admired your contributions here.

BTW check out my reply.

the fucking epicenter of the Left.

be careful what assumptions you make in attacking the messenger as opposed the message.

It was about how much you understand.

than our head as much as we set ourselves up as logical, scientific thinkers, we think with our hearts more, we are tortured by our compassion for those around us who suffer.

as noble as that is, many times it becomes a weakness and I feel like I am watching that right now.

I think the range of negative emotions Libs are feeling from the letdown over HCR reform are pushing a lot of them to reach for a scapegoat to vent on instead of logically picking apart a strategy to change the make up of Congress so we can get more Progressive legislation on Obamas desk.

After Obama won the primary, there was a rule that said the primary is over. I think all the talk of whether he is going to have a primary challenger is premature. There will be plenty of time to talk about that the day after the midterm elections (which is essentially when the primaries will began based on how quickly people announced last time). There will be at least a two year campaign for the GOP nomination. It seems to me since Obama was elected and has four years, he is due that. If after the midterms people want to start bolviate who is going to run against him, fine. Doing it 11 months into his term you might as well cut off his hands. People give up too easily expecting things to happen overnight.

??

I'm sure whoever replaced him would fall short in your eyes too.

The Republicans are jumping all over Obama using ridiculous rhetoric right now. The response from Democrats on DU? Jump all over Obama using ridiculous rhetoric.

change is impossible to obtain through democratic process in this country. I don't think we can do it by working with the system. The system is fucked.

I'm not far from that conclusion myself.

I'm giving the enemy every chance to choose to play fair.

so that when I finally pull the gloves off, I will feel no responsibility to play fair with them.

I think that all of the topics started on the subject of primarying Obama are either hopelessly naive or just plain old flamebait, with most being the latter.

I can't predict the future but I can say with certainty that no primary challenger will arise, let alone win.

Here's a simple truth that's applied throughout history:

Alienate key constituencies in order to embrace some ephemeral "center" -deride or backhand them one too many times- and you create a political vacuum that someone- some set groups- and/or some party is going to fill.

All this shallow talk about: this is "the least crappy policy you're going to get" notwithstanding.

I missed that part.

if he was a suck up he wouldn't have tried to do HCR at all.

and the Wall Street bail out was Bush.

it's not Obama's fault that the American people have been asleep at the wheel and letting corporations take over the country for the last half century.

Face the fact that in any given group of people there are going to be people you like and agree with and there are some you won't.

No one political category is full of perfect people. No one group is full of jerks (except maybe Republicans, but even they have their exceptions.)

it's about common sense.

First of all, I actually agree with her basic point that a primary challenge to Obama is not a very good idea.

But the whining, self-righteous tone of so many who sound more like Sean Hannity in their attacks on "the left" (anyone who is not a blind loyalist) is as bad as what they claim to be against. ("Frankly I'm losing my faith in the Left's ability to be a positive force in America; most would rather posture and shit talk than help")

Ya know, there is no such things as "the left." It's a bunch of people, with all the mix of qualities that implies.

And many of us have been working in our own different ways to "help."

making an argument about what strategy will actually accomplish Progressive goals,.

> Of course, the Anti-Obama crowd will get to enjoy the selfish emotional satisfaction of making their principled statement, BUT THE MILLIONS OF AMERICANS SUFFERING ECONOMIC INJUSTICE AND LOOKING FOR US FOR HELP COULD GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOUR PRINCIPLED STATEMENT. THEY WANT HELP. <

:hi: Thanks

Hekate

I agree.

I also agree with your comments down thread about putting our considerable energy and creativity into getting Democrats elected to Congress in Blue and Purple states across the board. There's no excuse for an otherwise Blue state to hang onto Repug Senators and Representatives.

We can make a real meaningful difference in these states.

feel like real dickheads after what happened with HCR.

maybe they have learned their lesson?

that feeling gets them to the polls to toss Collins and Snowe out on their rumps. They are worse than worthless.

The first on the Maine target list is Snowe. She's up for reelection in 2012

Collins not until in 2014

not Obama.

the other task is making sure a Liberal replaces LieberSatan when he retires.

and then try to find one more seat in a blue state being represented by either a conservadem of Repug and get them too.

it will take patience to do, but it is worth it.

Well said.

There is a double standard in this country that I do not want to see DU buy into also. Ever since Ronald Reagan ran against President Ford in the 1976 Republican Primaries it has been perfectly acceptable for people on the Right of the Republican Party to make primary challenges to those in the Center of the Republican Party. McCain may have a Republican primary challenge in 2010, and one reason Arlan Specter became a Democrat was to avoid a Republican primary he was certain to lose.

It is not "crazy" or "outside of the mainstream of American politics" for a progressive to consider making a primary challenge to a Democratic Senator or even President who has disappointed that wing of the Party. In and of itself that would not make leftists look like buffoons any more so than the the typical media slander that makes it seem like only the far left wanted a Public Option as part of HCR.

Having said that I fully expect to vote for President Obama in 2012 and I think it would ultimately be counterproductive for him to be challenged in that election from the Left.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

to know what it is. Seems to me health care reform has turned out to be a sell-out to the insurance industry and big pharma. The war in Afghanistan is being ratcheted up. Gitmo is still open. There have been huge bailouts to Wall Street bankers. The credit card industry is running amok.

If I wanted all of that I'd have voted for McCain.

I am not clamoring for Obama's head. Just want to know when he's going to start using his considerable influence to advance a progressive agenda and do something to help those "millions of Americans suffering economic injustice." If he continues down the same road he's been travelling on, he is likely to face a challenge from the left in 2012. As another poster suggested, a vacuum is being created that will somehow need to be filled.

building massive solar farms around the country. for one.

some issues he is going to be more to the center, some issues he is more with us.

the insurance crooks. More war. These are Centrist ideas? Thanks, but no thanks.

Even Bush installed solar heating in his Texas "ranch" house, so that's not an entirely progressive idea either. Still waiting, somewhat hopefully, for Obama to remember who helped get him elected and start acting in the interest of the little guy. So far he hasn't.

:thumbsup:

K&R

how I need to support your (barely) lesser evilist candidate.

I'm not supporting this guy and I regret voting for him. I'm done being bullied. In the end, voting for "One step forward, twenty steps back" is not substantially different than "twenty steps back". I'm not co-signing this garbage anymore.

if that's how you feel, you are blaming him for a lot of things beyond his control.

We need to realize our electoral goal right now is a 25-year Democratic Majority.

Not trying to tick off everything on the Liberal Checklist in one year.

The lib screamers love a Noble Failure, they would rather Obama had insisted on single payer HCR and gotten nothing.

Obama doesn't do Noble Failure, and we should be glad we have a responsible adult leading the party instead of libby bomb throwers and "gadflies" like Kucinich for example.

and too slow a moving government to expect a lot of progress in one year.

add the corporate influence and we should be glad Obama got anything done at all.

it's historically amounts to a self destruct button to oppose Pres. Obama. This is our President we have to make the most of any potential progress we have for 8 years, with the always ominous potential of Republicans returning to office. Opposing Obama 2012 only amounts to voting for the opposition. Let's just work to make him and even better President with a more progressive congress.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Primaries are elections, NOT coronations. If we Democrats want a different candidate that is OUR CHOICE as voters.

Fuck the party elites and their apologists like the OP. I am part of the DEMOCRATIC WING OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY!!!

someone tried that further up thread.

there is a difference between having a right to something and whether or not that something is actually intelligent strategy for getting what you want.

of coarse we have the right to primary -but is it actually smart. My opinion is that it is not.

Primarying Obama would not help the Progressive movement at all.

If there is no threat to vote against him he has no reason to listen to us. You fail negotiation 101.

all the Progessive goodies about green energy count for nothing.

he has to listen to us, but it's not his job to cater to us, we may be right most of the time, but political reality has to weighed sometimes too, if he came out all Che Guevera on everybody, the country would freak out and primarying him would be pointless because most centrist folks would be rushing to replace him with a Repug.