FACTS MATTER: Candidate Obama DID promise a Public Option (O'Donnell).

Watch it for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96U-7lILbXc

FACTS MATTER.

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this would be hilarious if not for the tragedy the American People will be living out in years to come ... his behavior as President certainly doesn't mirror his REPEATED promises on the campaign trail.

Different person? Hell to the "yes." :blush:

to pass one.

"I supported a public option before I didn't support a public option" :rofl:

his difficulty in getting one through the Senate?

Just to satisfy people who want him to eat crow?

Don't want him to eat crow.

Just do the right thing and try to speak the truth.

He said he would like one, hell we all would like one. He did not say it was public option or nothing

do you people not understand the fucking English language?

As president.

"Must."

Which is false. That is my issue. I understand the complexity of Congress, although I didn't think very many fought hard enough for single-payer or a public option. At least go down fighting. This so-called bill is probably the best they can do right now, since they pretty much caved to the repukes. Let's hope the bill can be improved upon after final passage.

like "we need bold leadership for the 21st century, leadership that's visionary and without conflicts of interest so common in Washington's revolving door." That may be something to campaign on.

But a promise is something more. It only needs to be made publicly once for the television cameras to be a promise to the nation, in the age of TV.

on edit: I used the word "binding" but i realize promises are not legally enforceable per se. It would ill behoove someone defending president Obama on this particular point to point that out, but here's hoping we won't waste time. The non-enforceability makes it all that much more important that a political price be paid, otherwise there's no price at all for breaking campaign promises, and thus no incentive to keep them.

but the repukes won't vote for it. And we better believe they will run on that stand. Vote R cause we didn't vote for this mess! Even though this stinks of repuke policy, they will be able to say their hands are clean. Depressing.

That's adding insult to injury.

That's why I was leaning toward Clinton early on. I argued this point with many Obama supporters at the time. If they're feeling betrayed now, it's only because they expected more than Obama was ever promising. They heard what they wanted to hear.

I wasn't imagining it and it's frankly insulting for you to suggest that I did.

To be specific, the issue here is whether he "campaigned" on the PO.

As O'Donnell put it, this could all boil down to what the meaning of "Campaigned" is.

Politifacts generously (IMHO) gave the prez a "barely true" rating on the statement... which is there rating JUST ABOVE "false."

You can check that at NJMaverick's link.

Next election, get it in writing.

Oh wait.. he put it on his web site. Which also doesn't count.

Next election... um... I don't know. I guess your suggestion is that no matter what Obama says, we should assume he's bullshitting us.

You just lost the debate. It might be a better strategy to answer her question instead of quitting like Palin.

I think the denial was a very small, cheap attempt to dodge responsibility for breaking the promise, which is way less than we had been lead to expect from him.

If anything, evidence points to a willingness to drop it without a fight long before it came to that ("sliver" speech this summer).

Obama has done exactly jack-squat in regards to a public option. He lied about it as a presidential candidate, as a U.S. senator, and as a state senator just to the public to like him.

The "sliver" speech and others were designed to help Baucus with his doomed negotiations with the Pukes.

From then on, the PO's days were almost certainly numbered.

As I knew at the time, but caught a lot of shit from the usual suspects for pointing out.

But he could have threatened to veto any plan without a public option.

But I guess he forgets that now.

He supports a lot of things but unless he can get the Congress to go along, what he wants he has to keep pushing.

Why is it he's suddenly so powerful when his sweetheart deal with Billy Tauzin and Big Pharma is threatened?

To get a public option, the people ne would need to move are Republicans and Lieberman. On filibustering the reimportation, he needs to influence the people allied to him who care if the entire plan is destroyed.

to vote for him. That doesn't mean he would actually do them. Obama in case you didn't notice is a "new Democrat". Those our his own words. I guess we are old Dems because we actually believe in something-all he believes in his own goddamn political career. Stop defending this scam artist. Frankly this place is embarrassing. You guys will defend war, torture, selling out gays, women, the poor and the middle class. Just like good old Bush defenders did.

All as long as a "democrat" does it. What a fucking farce.

The president has the biggest bully pulpit in town and
I don't recall Obama using it for PO.

Hillary would have gone all out on that issue of PO and even SP.

Next.

Obama's statement that he didn't campaign on the public option was rated as "barely true," which is the a verdict closest to "false" than it is of "true." This is the chain:

1-True
2-Mostly True
3-Half True
4-Barely True
5-False
6-Pants on Fire

Besides, Politifact lists the public option as Obama's promise #518. Do you disagree with Politifact? Should they have not included this as a promise? If so, why do you link to Politifact?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/518/create-public-option-health-plan-new-national-heal/

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :patriot:

are the ones with a problem with the truth.

Not "Essentially true."

Not half true."

It's "barely true."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

And I would call their evaluation a generous one.

I think we can agree that its "truthyness" factor was not a high one.

"Barely true" at best, depending on what you think "campaigned on" means....

Read your own link.

Politi"fact", once again, proves there is no truth in domain names.

I thought it wasnt a promise.

(?)

I would just as soon him say he campaigned on it but admit he couldn't get it. But to lie about campaigning on it is a joke and makes him look like every other candidate.

Man up obama. Admit it.

If he said it two more times, a cock would crow.

What then? What's your next step?

Just to continue complaining about something that doesn't matter in the least, for the sake of complaining? Impeachment? Public flogging? Vote for Republicans instead? :eyes:

I couldn't even function day-to-day if my outrage was that focused. Look at the big picture and things will become clear.

It was never a guarantee, he's not that stupid.

and he will deliver it within the month.

You people are nuts. Seriously.

For a very good reason.

It is NOT Health Care Reform anymore.

The scene was a nice cafe in N. Dallas. I was drinking a cappuccino alone while catching up on some reading. At the table beside me sat 4 women, approximately 50ish and older. I'm not one to eavesdrop, but I caught quite a bit of the animated conversation they were having. The topic of discussion was primarily the health reform bill. These ladies seemed to know bits and pieces of the goings on, and they were not happy campers. No teabaggers, they; Each one an avowed Barack voter. Yet all shook their well coiffed heads in agreement when the eldest said, with sadness, "I just don't trust him anymore. I think he tells lies."

My Mother is convinced she's going to lose her Medicare and be put to death by a death panel.

Old =/= wise.

The DLC has been looking for ways to do away with those programs for years and once this insurance scam is passed they'll probably start working on dismantling what little remains of the New Deal and Great Society.

Remember HOPE and CHANGE? Which part of that includes lying to your constituents?

And he downplayed its importance in the campaign to save face.

I don't understand why all this outrage is directed towards Obama. Lieberman and a handful of moderates in the Senate were the ones responsible for taking it out.

Is that so much to ask?

I could understand if he really did fight for it.

(I don't think he did, there is no strong evidence that he did, and lots that he did not.)

I could even understand if he ADMITTED that he gave it up to get to a final bill faster (which I think is in fact true).

But denying he ever promised it is an insult to our intelligence, and is beneath him.

Obama wants the public to focus on his accomplishments, not what he failed to achieve. It is a politically calculated move.

We have a right to expect and demand the truth.

"Transparency," as he called it.

health care plan. Who cares if he dodged it - maybe it shows some sort of personal failing, but why would his apologizing and bowing and scraping help get a public option? Perhaps he could go on national TV and trash Lieberman and Nelson, but that would hurt him for future legislation.

No matter what. There is proof all over the DU archives. We all know who killed the PO, and it wasn't Obama.

IMO it's some form of PTSD from the primary last year, these people are unable to move on.

In a thread that claimed that FACTS MATTER.

he'd veto the bill. He used to think we should have access to care, not just be forced to pay for insurance.

Signing the Insurance Company Profit Protection Act just so he can claim he signed something when he gives the SOTU is bullshit.

I hope he still doesn't think he'll be the last president to deal with healthcare. By digging the for profit companies in deeper, he's just making it harder to achieve real reform in the future.

will vote against those that stood their class interests. That's a fact of life!

Still, the bill is significant reform.

Facts matter.

Which is what prompted my posting this thread.

PS "Significant reform" is an opinion, not a fact.

facts are facts. The President clarified his remarks:



Transcript: Obama Talks With PBS' Jim Lehrer



Fact: He campaigned on health care reform that included a public option. The House passed it, the Senate didn't.

That is another issue.

I would rate "must" as a promise myself.

But in the end, the question HERE is about the CAMPAIGN, and it rises or falls on how we define the word "campaigned"....

As O'Donnell makes very clear.. it's a squishy distinction AT BEST.

Politifacts agrees, "barely true"...

(see my OP link and NjMaverick's link)...

and say he never campaigned on the public option, when God and everybody knows he did and its on camera all over the place.

Its totally at least a Hillary in Bosnia under a hail of bullets "fuck you stupid proles, you'll eat this shit up with a spoon" douchebag whopper and you and all even moderately paying attention well know it.

If you're going to talk to and about your supporters and constituents, its best to keep it out of general earshot. It shows a high level of disrespect to me when you play the edit/delete game with reality and I didn't expect that from Obama. If you're going to be a prick at least don't be all sloppy with it.

Also, keep in mind that it tends to thin out your friends when you dump on them to worship douchebags and villains, while douchebags and villains are just waiting for their chance to pounce. He's never going to make friends with the establishment bastards no matter how sweet they talk and his cock ass is going to get lit up. Who's fault will it be? Fucking A right it'll be his fault. Obama used to reasonably honest folks and navigating a path but these sharks are out for blood not a nice cup of tea and a game of chess.

Until Obama stands up to power instead of bullying the people on his side, the motherfucker is a punk. I've seen many a punk grow up and I welcome it with open arms and the fatted calf but so far the only muscle flexed is towards those working in the interests of the people and he's a fool for it because if he stays with the people the people will hang with him generations after he is gone. However, the fucks he makes nice with and facilitates could place the order that ends his life no matter how much lapdog he plays.

Come on Barack, I'll settle for a half a loaf but that fucked up sliver of a heel can't even fold over into a little half sandwich man! What the fuck are we going to do with a sliver of a damn heel?
Send big Bubba and a couple of black suits over to explain to Liberman and friends that we got a lot of mouths to feed so they're going to have to give up a few slices and not to start nothing or so much as pout about or else, see.

;)

So I figured, well, if FACTs really do matter....right?

It's just nice to see a cliche actually have some real use. So, thanks for your factual post. :)

--As weak as it is in numerous areas, the Senate bill contains three vital reforms. First, it creates a new framework, the “exchange,” through which people who lack secure workplace coverage can obtain the same kind of group health insurance that workers in large companies take for granted. Second, it makes available hundreds of billions in federal help to allow people to buy coverage through the exchanges and through an expanded Medicaid program. Third, it places new regulations on private insurers that, if properly enforced, will reduce insurers’ ability to discriminate against the sick and to undermine the health security of Americans.

These are signal achievements, and they all would have been politically unthinkable just a few years ago.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/12/godfather_of_the_public_option.html

It's an option.

That was really all I was correcting.

We shall see what the bill ends up containing.

I wish I was more optimistic.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, freddie.

K&R

It appears the astroturfers have nothing left but desperate parsing to support their unconditional worship of everything Obama.

Does anybody have a link to where Obama even tried to make a case for a public option?
I must have missed that, because I've been under the impression that he used the term a few times, and made it seem that he was "for" one (without ever really explaining what it meant or how it could work), even "insisting" he wouldn't sign a bill without one, but then handed the job of "negotiating" healthcare "reform" to Max Baucus and walked away. He has indicated that he WILL sign a bill without a public option, that it didn't ever mean anything to him, thus proving himself to be a liar.

He promised a public option without doing jack in support of one. It "didn't have the votes"? gee, what a surprise--NOT.

for healthcare that took place in May/June. There is not a MENTION of the words "public option" in the insanely amateurish materials the White House provided for the House Parties. This is also where the White House dissipated the energies of the real reformers by making believe that they cared. What do you think happened to all those surveys and synopses that were passed back to the White House?

The House Parties were my first "uh oh" moment with healthcare reform as being packaged and marketed by the Obama White House.

I do remember DUers posting questions about what, specifically, were the ideas and terms of Obama's reform plan, because they were getting embarrassed by questions about details.
I didn't get involved in house parties because I moved to a new town at the end of June and was embroiled in settling in, as well as the fact that I didn't know anybody.
So this was an orchestrated non-effort--that is disgusting.

It isn't going to change a thing except perhaps your vote?

If you chose to vote for someone else next election thats your prerogative to be sure. I happen to think given the shitstorm he was handed Obama is doing a pretty decent job. A far cry better than I think his competition would have. I think he could do better in some areas but unless something better comes along next election and they have the support to defeat the republicans. I am pretty sure we are going to have this guy for the next 7 years. Theres a lot of time left in this presidency and I expect a lot of good stuff to come from it, and some bad.

Nothing matters at all about this particular fact it does nothing besides make an attempt to undermine the president. If thats what you are shooting for though...Grats you scored a bullseye! Yay you! :puke:

I just corrected the record that was being distorted elsewhere.

You are free to make of it what you will.

???

And I do recall posts complaining about it, and how only a few could use it.

It seems to me that at some time after that he was intimidated into keeping the process of the reversal of his decision to work for it out of the public eye (whether or not it was technically still possible to attain it).

I don't think most of the people who are saying that this was a critical betrayal and disconnection enjoy playing gotcha with this at all.

So much promise has been squandered in this HCR process.

It's been ghastly to watch.

And O'Donnell on MSNBC.

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as reality is more important that this kind of tit for tat bullshit.

Because seriously, when Obama said he did not campaign on the PO, that was "bullshit," and it is also a "reality" that he said it.

All i care about is getting some progress done. That's happening so I'm good. If your expectations of politicians where so high that you are offended, then that's your problem.

... where semantic games can be substituted for INTEGRITY...

FACTS DO INDEED MATTER.

I will remember this EVERY time I step into the voting booth and every time I get a request to "help our candidate/cause," be it by money (ain't got much anyway, been almost 2 years without a job and the prospects look really shitty) or time (got plenty of that) knocking on doors or phone banking.

YES I CAN. (and will)

grow up already.

in reality? or would that get in the way of the constant, bitter whining?

Did he lie about campaigning on the Public Option or didn't he?

... corporate apologists just answer that very straightforward question? And these _____ think we'll just give them a pass on this crap in the future elections...

..." 'cuz you got no where else ta go" ?????????????????????????????????????

Whether he fought for it is another one, related but distinct.

Indeed, his failure to even fight for it helps to explain his later attempt to deny that he campaigned on it.

If you insist that you "never campaigned" on it (even though you did), then maybe you can make the failure to fight for it a tiny bit easier to "explain."

I was hoping we could avoid the bullshit parsing this time around. :banghead:

Even ProSense agreed with me at the time that that was a promise, as I recall.

:patriot: :kick: :hi:

for some of the hilarious defenses of Obama lying.

:rofl: :popcorn: :spray: :applause:

He *mostly* lied.

;)

:evilgrin:

:hi:

Which has been my favorite so far.

Pure comedy gold.

.

i think it's disingenuous not to blame all parties involved.

you can parse words and pick nits all day, but last time i checked, congress wrote the bills. if you're going to use this as a cudgel against obama, you should use it against the entire dem caucus in the house and senate as well. several of them went on record also saying the bill MUST have a public option.

obama could have pushed a lot more for it, i won't claim otherwise, but at the end of the day, the house and senate failed to get it in the bills.

nancy's covering her own ass here, because she couldn't even get her own house dems to pass a public option.

i can't argue against the notion that obama could have been more forceful on things, but that doesn't abdicate reid and pelosi of their own responsibilities

What the heck are you talking about? The House bill DID contain a Public Option. It was the DINO "blue dog" BASTARDS in the Senate that KILLED the PO...

"could have pushed a lot more for it" my ass. Obama did jack squat to help We the People have OUR WILL done.

and yeah, you're blaming one person instead of congress.

That is why some of us are fighting for it, even though we know it is "residual" at best.

I am wiling to predict now that we will lose some Bluedog seats, as well as some progressive ones.

Alienate the unions AND the liberal base?

A prescription for disaster.

... you? Some kind of freakin' mind reader? Where do you get off telling me (or ANYONE else for that matter) what "I know" or "who I blame?" Pretty gawddamn full of yourself, aren't you?

It has federal administration of the HC exchanges (not the state-run system that will fail, which is in the Senate plan), and no tax on labor health benefits.

That said, I agree totally that there is PLENTY of blame to go around.

Obama dropped the ball, and that is when the sharks in the House and especially in the Senate moved in for the kill.

it can still come

It's clear now that he tossed out promises in the campaign and later that he never really thought out in advance, or else never had any intention of delivering on.

C-Span anyone?

It's an unfair and simplistic argument to claim "You lied!"

That might make you king of the squad.

A small consolation in my desolate life.

Years ago, I promised my then little girl that we would go to a children's show. The day that it was scheduled, there was a major ice storm and nearly everything - including this show - were cancelled. We spent the day with a very angry 3 year old saying - but you promised.

The only difference is that she grew up to understand that sometimes things said - even with the best intentions - can't be followed through on.

Don't tell obvious fibs, it makes a person look childish and petulant.

In addition, I said that I honestly thought that, no matter which Democrat won, the plan signed would be rather similar as it would be the best they could do and get 60 Senators. That would be the case if it were Clinton, Kerry, Dean, or even a faithful to his wife version of John Edwards.

Some will argue that Obama technically didn't lie or technically didn't promise, but what does this get him if people remember him saying it and perceive him as a liar? Perception is king especially when it comes to Brand. This is damaging to Obama's brand. Arguing about technically being a correct statement without understanding how it appears or is perceived by voters seems a foolish stance to take. A belief is a difficult thing to overcome at the polls.

You get Jack Cafferty and Jon stewart mocking the "C-Span" promises, O'Donnell dissecting this one, then add the mandates and the no excise tax tapes, and what the F?

It's like they are deliberately editing the attack ads in advance for the Repukes in 2012.

I don't get it.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/


Obama Demands: The Bill I Sign Must Include Public Option
By Brian Beutler - July 20, 2009, 10:16AM

While we're talking health care reform: In his weekly radio address on Saturday, President Obama did what he's refused to do all along--he said the public option isn't an option at all.

ny plan I sign must include an insurance exchange: a one-stop shopping marketplace where you can compare the benefits, cost and track records of a variety of plans - including a public option to increase competition and keep insurance companies honest - and choose what's best for your family.

That's a first. In the recent past, the White House has only demanded that health care reform expand and improve coverage while lowering costs. But Blue Dogs and conservative Senate Democrats have been raising noises about the public option, while citing concerns that the reform proposals on the table won't cut costs. And with the debate reaching its crescendo, Obama's letting them know they can't have it both ways. ......................:popcorn: