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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:39 PM
Original message
"Obama's Brilliant First Year"
Yep. Some people actually follow the facts and pay attention to history:

By January, he will have accomplished more than any first-year president since Franklin Roosevelt...

...This conventional wisdom about Obama's first year isn't just premature—it's sure to be flipped on its head by the anniversary of his inauguration on Jan. 20. If, as seems increasingly likely, Obama wins passage of a health care reform a bill by that date, he will deliver his first State of the Union address having accomplished more than any other postwar American president at a comparable point in his presidency. This isn't an ideological point or one that depends on agreement with his policies. It's a neutral assessment of his emerging record—how many big, transformational things Obama is likely to have made happen in his first 12 months in office...

...We are so submerged in the details of this debate—whether the bill will include a "public option," limit coverage for abortion, or tax Botox—that it's easy to lose sight of the magnitude of the impending change. For the federal government to take responsibility for health coverage will be a transformation of the American social contract and the single biggest change in government's role since the New Deal. If Obama governs for four or eight years and accomplishes nothing else, he may be judged the most consequential domestic president since LBJ. He will also undermine the view that Ronald Reagan permanently reversed a 50-year tide of American liberalism...

...Obama's claim to a fertile first year doesn't rest on health care alone. There's mounting evidence that the $787 billion economic stimulus he signed in February—combined with the bank bailout package—prevented an economic depression. Should the stimulus have been larger? Should it have been more weighted to short-term spending, as opposed to long-term tax cuts? Would a second round be a good idea? Pundits and policymakers will argue these questions for years to come. But few mainstream economists seriously dispute that Obama's decisive action prevented a much deeper downturn and restored economic growth in the third quarter. The New York Times recently quoted Mark Zandi, who was one of candidate John McCain's economic advisers, on this point: "The stimulus is doing what it was supposed to do—it is contributing to ending the recession," he said. "In my view, without the stimulus, G.D.P would still be negative and unemployment would be firmly over 11 percent."

When it comes to foreign policy, Obama's accomplishment has been less tangible but hardly less significant: He has put America on a new footing with the rest of the world. In a series of foreign trips and speeches, which critics deride as trips and speeches, he replaced George W. Bush's unilateral, moralistic militarism with an approach that is multilateral, pragmatic, and conciliatory. Obama has already significantly reoriented policy toward Iran, China, Russia, Iraq, Israel, and the Islamic world. Next week, after a much-disparaged period of review, he will announce a new strategy in Afghanistan. No, the results do not yet merit his Nobel Peace Prize. But not since Reagan has a new president so swiftly and determinedly remodeled America's global role.



http://www.slate.com/id/2236708/?from=rss

A-F*****-MEN!


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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. Anyone who's been paying
attention know they have been extremely diligent in their quest for a long lasting structure for our country.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yes, and also that Obama is looking at the long term. nt
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you for supplying some actual FACTS instead of rhetoric.
:kick: and rec.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. "and winning universal health insurance" . . . . hmmmmmm -- guess I slept through that victory
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. You must work for Hannity. The ENTIRE quote in the article is
Obama has wisely deferred some smaller, politically hazardous battles over issues such as closing Guantanamo, ending "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," and fighting the expansion of Israel's West Bank settlements. Instead, he has saved his fire for his most urgent priorities—preventing a depression, remaking America's global image, and winning universal health insurance.

Go back to sleep.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. so what is your concept of universal health care?
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 10:40 PM by DrDan
Did you realize it will be "universal" in that everyone will be required to purchase insurance from a private insurer? My concept is certainly different.

and I just read that sentence differently . . . I read it that he has already "prevented a depression" - which he probably has - and that he already has remade America's global image - which he is making great strides at doing - and that he won universal health insurance - which is certainly not true - yet. I see your point - I just read it differently, (I still take issue with whether or not Obama has ever set his sights on "universal" health care.)

And no - I am no hannity fan - as your juvenile comment implies.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Universal insurance is a long way from universal health care
I don't consider forced insurance coverage a victory for anyone - except maybe the CEOs and shareholders of the insurance companies.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #33
40. Hannity fan or not, you certainly know how to use his techniques.
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 12:03 AM by johnaries
Using partial quotes to completely change the meaning. and then when you are called out you try to change the subject. Hannity would be proud. Also, the way you make personal attacks. "Juvenile", indeed. You may want to check the dictionary - "juvenile" does not mean "informed".

However, I will give you credit for at least admitting that you "read it wrong" and that for admitting that Obama has made some important strides and is in the process of making more. That is a most un-Hannity-like position. Therefore, I believe that perhaps we can have a civil conversation and/or debate, which I greatly appreciate. I will also admit that I may have been hasty in my assessment because I have recently seen a number of DUer's who appear to have adopted Rove's playbook simply to make a point whether it has any validity or not.

So, lets try again on a new footing and see if we can bridge our disagreements and come to a mutual agreement of some type. I'll begin by admitting that I would prefer a single-payer system. Also, I am dismayed by the "watering-down" of the public option in the current House and Senate bills. However, I do not blame Obama for the shortfalls. He is obviously trying not to repeat the mistakes that the Clinton Administration made and trying to let "Congress do it's job" rather than trying to force something down it's throat. Despite my personal disappointments, there are a lot of great things in both of these bills. Both bills show a great deal of progress over the current status quo, and contain an unprecented amount of regulations. To wit: "No one can be denied." "Rates cannot be raised". "Policies cannot be cancelled except for non-payment." And my personal favorite, that if profits exceed 15% then rebates must be given to policy holders.

As for "universal health care", in my understanding it simply means that everyone will have access to health care - private or otherwise. There are countries who have universal health care even though it is through private providers. One thing everyone needs to understand about universal health care is that it HAS to mandated. Whether it is paid for via taxes or by requiring citizens to purchase private plans, everyone is mandated to participate.

Granted, 96% is still 4% shy of "universal". However, both plans have provisions for increased funding for "community health centers" which will help provide health care for that remaining 4%.

Again, I wish to the Great Spirits that we could have a single-payer system. But it should be pretty obvious that it ain't gonna happen anytime real soon. In the meantime, there are millions of people who need real help, ASAP. They can't wait. They need SOME kind of relief TODAY.

So, let's help them the best we can now. And continue the fight to make it even better.

Neither of these bills are "perfect". But they are Progress.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #40
48.  NO ONE will gain access to health CARE at all
The only thing that will happen is that we will be forced to purchase really shitty private insurance. In countries that get to universal health care with private insurance, the government dictates both prices and coverage for insurers, and also dictates the prices that can be charged by providers. There are NO cost controls whatever in these bills.

Mandated CARE would be fine, but we are just being forced to subsidize useless shitstains who choose our doctors and retain the power to deny any claim that they can get by with denying. And older people will be forced to pay TWICE AS MUCH for a worthless product.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #40
63. Rah Rah.......
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
52. Well, he better quit the "deferring" and get his ass to the "doing"............
.........if he doesn't want to give away the mid terms and his re-election in 2012. Take off the rose colored glasses and you will see a black Bill Clinton. Now, I WILL agree with a lot of people here that he's better than a Republican, but not by a lot. It is totally asinine to compare him to an FDR or LBJ (maybe on the Afghanistan thing). His healthcare "reform" is fast becoming a joke and may not even pass in the shit form it has become, and we don't even know what the "final" bill will look like. So, you better save the cheer leading until after next November.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
74. "Winning universal health care"?111 - I must have slept thru that one, too!!!
Contrary to the Obama cultists here - THERE IS STILL NO HEALTH CARE REFORM YET!!!

I "love" it when these idiots count WISHES as ACCOMPLISHED FACT when they're NOT...!!!
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #74
95. Let me say that again:
I "love" it when these idiots count WISHES as ACCOMPLISHED FACT when they're NOT...!!!


Thank You, TankLV

The OP reads like cut and paste propaganda from a campaign Web Site.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #23
61. It's like his Nobel Peace Prize
Two wars, against the poorest nations on earth, Wealthcare will be here soon. I voted and worked for his election, when Kucinich was forced out I should have quit too.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks.
K & R :thumbsup:
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. I'm paying attention.
"Transformational" events aren't always positive. I know Obama admired Reagan for his DESTRUCTIVE transformational achievements.

If he passes a bad health insurance bill while it is touted as "health care reform," it's not "brilliant."

His war on public education is not "brilliant."

Neither is his escalation of the war on terror.

I don't find it "brilliant" that my tax money, used to bailout banks, is now invested in outsourcing more jobs.

By January, he might have accomplished quite a bit.

Whether or not his accomplishments are worthy of praise remains to be seen.
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inna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. +1
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dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. You know, there's nothing wrong with criticizing Obama if you can be truthful
But when you say, "I know Obama admired Reagan for his DESTRUCTIVE transformational achievements," you KNOW that's a lie. President Obama admired Reagan for his ability to achieve transformation, not for those transformations per se.
As for the rest, we agree: "Whether or not his accomplishments are worthy of praise remains to be seen."
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. I could have worded that better, it's true:
I know Obama admired Reagan for his, in my judgement, DESTRUCTIVE transformational achievements.

I survived the Reagan era, and I judge his achievements to have been destructive to the nation in the extreme.



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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
90. I'm not taking sides on this issue of Obama's record, as I can see both sides:
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 03:02 PM by Joe Chi Minh
the merits and misgivings/disappointments.

However, praising Reagan 'for his ability to achieve transformation, not for those trasnformations per se', sounds very flawed to me. Vandals, such as Thatcher, Hitler, Pol Pot, Pinochet, and, indeed, Reagan, were by the very nature of their reckless wickedness able to achieve enormous transformations.

In that regard, LWolf seems very wise to draw it to your attention. I don't see it as a matter of opinion, humble or otherwise.

The Trumans and the Roosevelts who did work positive, transformational wonders, and didn't mince their words when taking on the vandals of the far right, head-on. Of course, it was before the assassinations of the progressive giants, the Kennedy brothers and Luther King, though, thanks to a still fighting, retired marine general, Smedley Butler, Roosevelt narrowly avoided a coup and possible assassination by some of the multinational CEO criminals of his day.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. .
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
29. Mr President, we the
Insurance executives and the more well off in this nation applaud the Health Care Reform.

The Military Industrial complex applauds your escalation of the Afghanistan war, as do the CIA moles that will be busy shipping the heroin from that region into our home beased narco markets.

The executives in many industries that seem to need constant outsourcing of Ameerican jobs appplaud you.

And on and on.

And thanks so much for stopping to view the bodies as they are shipped home.

When we heard the words "Change we can believe in," we didn't realize so much of it was cosmetic change.
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Myrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #29
67. Spot On!
:applause:
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #67
100. Hey Myrina,
A mid day :toast: to you!
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
53. Amen to that, brother/sister!!!!!!! It's time for the SO CALLED liberals..............
............to take off the blinders and start looking at things realistically instead of acting just like right wing cheerleaders.
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shadesofgray Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
85. +1
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azmouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. I've said it before and I'll say it again...
He's the right man at the right time.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
7. "brilliant"???? - don't you honestly believe that is a bit of a stretch. . . . .
let's get real
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Sure. Brilliant.
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 04:33 PM by jefferson_dem
Of course, that characterization conflicts with the nonsensical "debbie downer" narrative that some DUers love to parrot. :)
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. still a bit premature
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 05:02 PM by DrDan
I would like to see something close to healthcare reform, wars winding down. constitutional rights being restored, gitmo closing, more jobs, educational reform, infrastructure on the mend . . . then, perhaps the adulation can begin and words like "brilliant" can be used.
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impik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Comparing to what he inherited, it's damn close to brilliant
And in historic perspective, it's damn brilliant.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. he well may be headed to that end . . . but I find it a bit premature to attach that label now
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jamesatemple Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
68. As I do, Dr. Dan...
Perhaps we should seek some other term that, some, would feel more accurately describes the near-one-year term of the young President. What do you suggest? To my mind, there could be a multitude of descriptive terms employed by the various posters on this thread. "Brilliant" would not be my first choice but, certainly, I would not suggest "failure" as a number of the posts suggest.

"Hopeful", perhaps. "Well-intentioned", maybe. "Doomed" doesn't seem proper to me. "Useless" may reflect an opinion of the interchange between the President and the Congress, particularly the President's announced desire for meaningful dialog between the two major parties. Yet, I don't think that "battles-lost" predicts the final outcome of the struggle.

Then, as you point out, there is the matter of the timing of making any declarative statement of the success or failure of the Presidency. In fact, Republicans claim that, in the course of time, the Presidency of George W. Bush will be looked upon favorably. In my mind, it may be looked upon as "favorable" just after the Spanish Inquisition receives that same accolade; or, smallpox is lauded as a successful birth-control procedure. But, that's just me and my bias. The point is that our determination of the success or failure of the Obama administration defies definitive pronouncement at this early point. But, so do the negative claims that have been posted by our disappointed friends herein.

Don't you think that any such descriptions merely reflect "hope" on one hand or "disappointment" on the other? Yet, only in the fullness of time will we and others be able to determine the actual description of this Presidential era. Meanwhile, we can read the posts of our cyber-friends with the understanding of the actual intent of their missives without passing judgment as to their accuracy. No definitive, much less accurate, description term can be applied at this very moment. In fact, it may be years before a true assessment can be made. And even such a later assessment will only reflect the biases of historians of the present era.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #68
86. you said it well - the framework for success is being laid - only time
will let us accurately judge. Much as I hate to say it - that is the same claim junior made for years. But in this lone instance, he was probably correct. The true and full destruction of his administration will not be fully known for years.
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
31. He seems to be continuing, without interruption, an alarming amount of what he inherited:
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 08:11 PM by salguine
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. not exactly what I would call "brilliant"
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Weak.
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 04:36 PM by jefferson_dem
Your snarky fixation on a typo undercuts any legit argument you would care to make.

Major progress is being made in all of those policy areas. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention.
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. progress and results are two different things
I want to see results before I label someone "brilliant".

Of course, you were probably one of the ones that ran around the forum screaming "brilliant" a few weeks after the inauguration.

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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
56. I believe what you just described it the "change we can believe in"............
...........Not the basically useless (but brilliantly given, just like Bill) many speeches he has given in the first year. Now only if he would put the "acts" with the pretty words.
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liberal N proud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. K&R
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HopeOverFear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
14. AMEN! K & R
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Nedsdag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
16. Bravo, Mr. Weisberg, bravo!
:applause:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
22. Certainly true. Nice review, given that Weisberg was not big on Obama last year at all.
:)
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
24. wow, facts
how dare you pollute the debate here with facts, you commie.
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. Read The Audacity to Win by Plouff
it reminds you who Obama is and why we like him and why expecting him to wipe out discrimination, war, poverty, republicans, bad 80s music, and all things that go bump in the night is unrealistic.
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HopeOverFear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. EXCUSE YOU?????
there was no bad music in the 80s... :rofl:
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. seems as though ABBA was still recording in the 80's
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #35
42. Oh, I'm putting you on ignore for that one!
I can tolerate Obama bashing but I WILL NOT STAND for ABBA bashing!!!! ;)
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NBachers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #28
44. EXCUSE YOU?????
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
27. K&R
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lovelyrita Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
30. Is sending more troops to Afghanistan a new strategy?
This article seems to assume a lot.

What about HCR is a victory for anyone other than the insurance companies?

It's hard to argue that the economy is improving when there is still record unemployment and housing foreclosures. Maybe Wall Street should be the only economic indicator that matters?

I had so much hope but it seems to get squashed at every turn.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
32. Facts Matter! K & R
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
36. Nice to see a
reality based assessment. :hi:

K and R
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NJGeek Donating Member (680 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
37. yes!
give the guy a chance...
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maryf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
38. Drones
Unmanned drones in Pakistan, a nation with which we have no war, what a courageous initiative, and all to Obama's credit... :(
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
92. Yes, Drones = Summary Executions without trial. Yeah! USA! Judge and Jury!!!
:sarcasm:
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
41. I will say it again, the Man's a Badass
and all those who stand in his way are but potholes on the road to Progress
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:18 AM
Response to Original message
43. I know I've got some seriously high expectations of Obama
and there are some problems that simply can't be solved anyway, so I have been critical at times...

but thanks for the reminder and putting things in context. The jury is still out on some issues, but I think overall we are heading in a good direction, or as good a direction as can be hoped for, considering the times.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:40 AM
Response to Original message
45. Rec. Finally, a little reality in GDP.
Thanks for this post.


mark
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RonCohen Donating Member (5 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
46. If he doesnt pass healthcare reform
Obama will be a huge failure of a President. We will have no choice but to find a primary challenge to him in 2012.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #46
107. This is what you chose for your first post? Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay. nt
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Bluesbreaker Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
47. If you don't count all of the failures, sell outs, corporate suck-ups
If something called health reform passes, it won't mean much unless it has a public option and no sweetheart deals for Pharma, the health insurance industry and the medical industrial complex. And since none of the bills still alive have those provisions, let's not pop the champagne too soon. Obama and his team cut deals with the corporate medical providers before the first bill passed out of committee, and he never went to the mat for the public option.

The economic team (except Paul Volcker) the treasury department and hand-in-glove manipulation of the markets, show a complete abandonment of progressive Democratic principles. Obama has pulled the wool over a lot of people's eyes, but many here on DU have seen through the charade and started pointing out his poor record on everything from civil liberties to the war in Afghanistan.

Obama had a golden opportunity to really change things in this country, but he's letting it slip away.
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:04 AM
Response to Original message
49. Wow! I missed all the facts, but it was a lovely bunch of assertions.
The only facts I could detect are possibly that the cited quotes are accurate. But it takes well over 3,296,345,879 assertions to make a fact.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:24 AM
Response to Original message
50. Thanks! nt
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:45 AM
Response to Original message
51. Abandoning the antimissile defense in Poland will save us more than money
Star Wars was a huge problem for the Russians. Now they can cooperate with us without their public jabbing them on any issue concerning America.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
54. BRILLIANT??? Bwahahahahahahaha!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
76. Those who never liked Obama in the first place will, of course, disagree with the OP.
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 12:53 PM by ClarkUSA
But after only 10 months and one week, unbiased observers of history do agree that no president except FDR has accomplished more in his first "year" than President Obama. :)
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jlgrounds Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
55. Get off our behinds!
We don't agree with every single thing that the POTUS does but for sure we voted for Health Care, Environment, etc and these issues are being chipped away because WE progressives blog, bitch, and watch Rachel Maddow BUT we NEED to get active again. We elected a smart man who is being trashed and his ideas watered down because the right wing - our own Taliban - have been screaming us down.

We need to get off our high horse and DO something to show that the majority of Americans support the agenda we voted for a year ago.

On January 15th, 2010, Americans will gather, peacably, on the DC Mall to show our continued support for the progressive agenda our POTUS campaigned on. We voted for President Obama b/c we hoped for more from our government: more compassion, more diplomacy, more honesty, more protection, and more equality.

Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=206771574224
You tube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsyU0Rzw2LI&feature=related

On January 15th, 2010, we will stand in opposition to the voices of fear, ignorance, and hate that have, thus far, garnered virtually all the attention of the main stream media and skewed the debate over issues that are far to important to ALL Americans.

We've written and phoned our Representatives in the House and Senate.

We've remained a diligent, anonymous, but silent majority.

Now, is the time for America to see our faces and hear our voices again. We want this to be like Denver or inaugeration day. We want to show the GOP, and the pundits that we support our President AND his agenda.
Would love to have you there!

Janice Grounds

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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #55
108. Okay, now that's what I call a good first post. Welcome to DU. nt
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Jester Messiah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:47 AM
Response to Original message
57. They know it, and they are fighting tooth and nail against it.
Exercise for the reader to figure out who "they" are.
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
58. Hyperbole is stupid
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radiclib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
59. Please don't
piss down my leg and tell me it's rainin'. :eyes: Feh
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
60. "brilliant" ?
i`ll give him a 2.5 on a 5 scale.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
62. Key point: Step away from the cable news.
They would follow Senators to the bathroom, if they could, and debate whether Senator so-and-so wiping back-to-front is a career-ending scandal.
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mikekohr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
64. Facts are pesky things
and the fact is President Obama has produced tangible, positive results. The future's so bright i gotta wear shades!

mike kohr
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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. they certainly are . . . and the facts in no form support "brilliant"
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 10:50 AM by DrDan
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. You don't know that, here's why:
The assumption is that anyone would have had the same successes in preventing a depression (that is, passing a stimulus), that health care would be where it is now if any of the other top candidates had been elected and that they would have achieved the same level of international success. None of them would have likely won the Nobel Prize, and none of them would have engaged in the level of international diplomacy that Obama has.

People certainly spend a lot of time belittling the President's efforts, but who do they propose would have done more or even the same?

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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #66
87. several of those successes you cite have yet to manifest themselves into results
we have no clue as to where the actual health care reform is taking us - but we can pretty much count on a watered-down PO. International success? debatable. Sure, he is mending fences. But the last trip resulted in no advances. Nobel Prize? Debatable as to whether is was "earned" or given to anyone who successfully removed the past administration from the world stage.

I agree the groundwork for a successful administration is being laid. I just do not believe the actual results to-date have earned a label of "brilliant". Hopeful? Promising? On-track? Many labels probably apply at this point-in-time - but I just cannot buy "brilliant" yet.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #87
93. "But the last trip resulted in no advances. " Talk about seeing only what you want to see
Facts

Also, paying attention would give you a very good idea of where health reform is heading.


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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #93
98. not sure why you feel the need to resort to personal insults . . . but even Axelrod admits
the trip resulted in little more than laying a future foundation for progress.

"Obama's advisers are, for the moment, focused less on final resolutions and more on the long-term potential for renewed dialogue. "These are things that will pay off over time," said David Axelrod, one of the President's top aides who traveled to Asia. In other words, this trip was merely Obama's opening bow. Now the real show must begin."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1940558,00.html#ixzz0YHbr6pRp
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Axelrod admitted no such thing. His quote is couched in editorial
Obama's advisers are, for the moment, focused less on final resolutions and more on the long-term potential for renewed dialogue. "These are things that will pay off over time," said David Axelrod, one of the President's top aides who traveled to Asia. In other words, this trip was merely Obama's opening bow. Now the real show must begin.


That's the only part that's a direct quote, and it says nothing about "no advances" as you claim.


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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #99
101. others seem to agree that there were few if any tangible results from the trip
"Pres. Obama generated a lot of headlines in Asia, and no doubt goodwill. At some point, he must achieve concrete progress as well."

http://www.chinapost.com.tw/commentary/the-china-post/arthur-cyr/2009/11/22/233751/Obama-needs.htm

"President Barack Obama's eight-day trip to Asia produced no tangible wins for the United States, though he says talks with Asian allies could open new markets for U.S. goods and help create thousands of jobs in the future."

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/11/22/20091122Obama1128.html
and
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/dcnow/2009/11/obama-says-asia-trip-will-aid-us-economy.html
and multiple other sites
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. Oh please. Media spin aside, are you really trying to deny
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 04:33 PM by ProSense
that these are not accomplishments?

What were you expecting that makes you so determined to accept the media spin?

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DrDan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. I can't provide a cogent argument one way or t'other
I will say that any emissions reduction that targets 2020 levels seems to discount the gravity of the situation in my mind.

I think I held some expectations of some economic breakthroughs that were perhaps not the goals of the trip. Maybe had I understood what was being sought by the WH, then I may have viewed any results differently.

anyway . . .
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
69. K&R
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
70. He deserves credit for some things, but this is overselling.
The jury is still very much out on Afghanistan, climate issues, jobs, and health care, and the record on the civil/human rights agenda (gay rights, Patriot act provisions, land mines, etc) is less than we all might have hoped for.

Not time to pop the cork quite yet.
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avalonofmists Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
71. When it comes to keeping the Powers of the Executive branch,
yes, he has held Bush's grab of power close.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #71
91. Yes, I've never been more saddened or disappointed in a democratic president
in my lifetime. :(

BTW welcome to DU.
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Richd506 Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
72. K & R!
Obama might not be perfect. In fact far from it. And I agree with those who say his Nobel Prize was premature. But he has done a hell of a lot and I'm not ashamed to give him the credit he deserves. He still has my confidence...
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
73. +100
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
75. This has got to be the most inane post on DU...
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 12:26 PM by TankLV
Obama has accomplished NOTHING of IMPORTANCE so far!!!

This is VASTLY PREMATURE at best.

Sure - he's changed the curtains in the White House Bedrooms, but NOT A SINGLE ONE OF HIS BIG TICKET THINGS - YOU KNOW - THE ONES THAT HE CAMPAINED ON - IS A REALITY YET!!!

This cheerleading is fucking bullshit.

I love obama compared to any one else out there right now, but let's get REAL, OK?!!!

Both Wars going - in fact ACCELLERATING.
NO Health Care INACTED yet.
GITMO still open and doing business.
DADT & DOMA still functioning.

And don't get me started on Warrentless Wiretapping, Patriot Act, and other bush* travesties he REFUSES to eliminate!!!
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. What's truly "inane" --> "Obama has accomplished NOTHING of IMPORTANCE so far!!!"
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 12:48 PM by ClarkUSA
I disagree. Here's what he accomplished in 10 months:

Appointed a Special Envoy for Middle East peace

Order the closing of Guantanamo Bay

Prohibit use of torture

Obama Orders Secret Prisons and Detention Camps Closed

Obama Sets Bold New Principles for U.S. Energy, Climate Policies

Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009

American Recovery and Reinvestment Act

The Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act

Omnibus Public Lands Management Act

Special Inspector General for the Troubled Asset Relief Program Act of 2009

Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act of 2009 or FERA (PDF)

Helping Families Save Their Homes Act of 2009

Enhanced Partnership with Pakistan Act of 2009 (Kerry-Lugar includes funding for Obama's global poverty initiative)

Ryan White HIV/AIDS Treatment Extension Act of 2009

End of 22-Year Discriminatory Travel Ban

Veterans Health Care Budget Reform and Transparency Act

Stopping Conflict-related Sexual Violence Against Women and Children

The UN, Women & Girls

New policy steps towards Cuba

Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty with Russia

Strategy to address the international nuclear threat

For the Media: "30+ Reasons Obama deserves the Nobel Peace Prize"

Russia on Nobel Peace Prize: Obama thawing 'second cold war'

World Reaction to Obama Winning the Nobel

Turkey, Armenia sign historic accord

Why the Stimulus Worked

Green jobs for real people: The story behind the recovery numbers

Obama's Plan: Financial Regulatory Reform: A New Foundation (PDF)

Requiring Strong Supervision And Appropriate Regulation Of All Financial Firms (pdf)

Strengthening Regulation Of Core Markets And Market Infrastructure (pdf)

Strengthening Consumer Protection (pdf)

Providing The Government With Tools To Effectively Manage Failing Institutions (pdf)

Improving International Regulatory Standards And Cooperation (pdf)

House Panel Moves Derivatives Toward Obama’s Proposal

FACTBOX: Major U.S. financial regulation reform proposals

Obama says Senate bill on tax havens would stop abuses

Statement by President Barack Obama on House and Senate Introducing Legislation to Crack Down on Overseas Tax Havens

Obama to chair historic U.N. council nuclear meeting

G20 to Become Forum for Global Economic Cooperation

Next comes Obama's budget, health care reform and more.


(pdf) and more here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8730317&mesg_id=8730317

<<Both Wars going - in fact ACCELLERATING.>>

Wrong. Pres. Obama is keeping his campaign promise to wind down the Iraq war. And where was your Outrage last year when he
promised to finish the job in Afghanistan after Bush took his eye off of it to invade Iraq? Hmm? :eyes:

<<NO Health Care INACTED yet.>>

97% of all bills that reach the point the HCR bill has become law. And a signal accomplishment of Pres. Obama is getting HCR getting
farther than any president in 60 years.

<<GITMO still open and doing business.>>

See above list. It's in the process of being shut down, despite Republican obstructionism.

<<DADT & DOMA still functioning.>>

It's on the list of issues that he said he'll focus on repealing both next year.

<<And don't get me started on Warrentless Wiretapping, Patriot Act, and other bush* travesties he REFUSES to eliminate!!!>>

There's been deliberate misinformation on the Pres. Obama & the Patriot Act you mention:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=23247&mesg_id=23252
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #77
88. Man, do you sound like a propaganda machine. You would be right..........
.............at home at Newsmax or worldnut daily. What exactly is "issues that he said he'll focus on repealing both next year"? That is some real intellectual truthiness there. Even with your thousand word BS Manifesto, most of those would be considered "minor" by most citizens. Healthcare far from done, the bill we may end up with may very well be worse than worthless. Afghanistan & Iraq, need I say more? Restoration of civil rights? Joke. I won't even dignify the rest. You, my man, are definitely looking at a glass that is very, very full.
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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. It figures that a 24/7 Obama basher would think facts w/sourced links = "propaganda"
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 02:48 PM by ClarkUSA
:eyes:
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #89
104. Nice try. But if it looks like shit and smells like shit, well then.................
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Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
78. Hurray for Corporate Welfare!
By the time of his first year anniversary he will have a health care bill passed which seems to be shaping up to be welfare for insurance companies.

You add the bank bailouts and other government give aways to corporate America and you have a president who has managed to achieve so much in his first year.


After all I think insurance companies, wall street and the Banking industry really need help.

Yay for President Obama and his corporate welfare initiative where would we be without you!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. What nonsense.
BIGGEST. TAX CUT. EVER...:

Chris Hayes had a similar observation.

On the politics side of the ledger, Ben Smith notes Obama's emphasis on the tax cuts in the bill. I'm not necessarily a fan, though politically it's true that every single Republican member of congress can now be accused of "Voting against the biggest tax cut in history" come next election." Clearly, this hasn't escaped the White House's notice.


The ARRA:

The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, abbreviated ARRA (Pub.L. 111-5), is an economic stimulus package enacted by the 111th United States Congress in February 2009. The Act of Congress was based largely on proposals made by President Barack Obama and was intended to provide a stimulus to the U.S. economy in the wake of the economic downturn. The measures are nominally worth $787 billion. The Act includes federal tax cuts, expansion of unemployment benefits and other social welfare provisions, and domestic spending in education, health care, and infrastructure, including the energy sector. The Act also includes numerous non-economic recovery related items that were either part of longer-term plans (e.g. a study of the effectiveness of medical treatments) or desired by Congress (e.g. a limitation on executive compensation in federally aided banks added by Senator Dodd and Rep. Frank). The government action is much larger than the Economic Stimulus Act of 2008, which consisted primarily of tax rebate checks.


Add to that the home buyers credit, cash for clunkers and student financial aid.

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ClarkUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. Fact-free rhetoric aside, you're ignoring the 14 immediate HCR provisions that help Americans.
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 12:54 PM by ClarkUSA
Amid all the negative rumors and misleading assumptions that are floating around here about what the Affordable Health Care For America Act will or will not do for/to Americans, I thought I'd share some actual facts about what positive changes HCR will enact as of January 1, 2010 should the bill now being debated in the Senate be signed into law by President Obama by the end of the year:

1. BEGINS TO CLOSE THE MEDICARE PART D DONUT HOLE - Reduces the donut hole by $500 and institutes a 50% discount on brand-name drugs, effective January 1. 2010.

2. IMMEDIATE HELP FOR THE UNINSURED UNTIL EXCHANGE IS AVAILABLE (INTERIM HIGH-RISK POLL) - Creates a temporary insurance program until the Exchange is available for individuals who have been uninsured for several months or have been denied a policy because of pre-existing conditions.

3. BANS LIFETIME LIMITS ON COVERAGE - Prohibits health insurance companies from placing lifetime caps on coverage.

4. ENDS RESCISSIONS - Prohibits insurers from nullifying or rescinding a patient's policy when they file a claim for benefits, except in the case of fraud.

5. EXTENDS COVERAGE FOR YOUNG PEOPLE UP TO 27TH BIRTHDAY THROUGH PARENT'S INSURANCE - Requires health plans to allow young people through age 26 to remain n their parents' insurance policy, at the parents' choice.

6. ELIMINATES COST-SHARING FOR PREVENTATIVE SERVICES IN MEDICARE - Eliminates co-payments for preventative services and exempts preventative services from deductibles from the Medicare program.

7. IMPROVES HELP FOR LOW-INCOME MEDICARE BENEFICIARIES - Improves the low-income protection programs in Medicare to assure more individuals are able to access this vital help.

8. PROVIDES NEW CONSUMER PROTECTIONS IN MEDICARE ADVANTAGE - Prohibits Medicare Advantage plans from charging enrollees higher cost-sharing for services in their private plan than what is charged in traditional Medicare.

9. IMMEDIATE SUNSHINE ON PRICE GOUGING - Discourages excessive price increases by insurance companies through review and disclosure of insurance rate increases.

10. CONTINUITY FOR DISPLACED WORKERS - Allows Americans to keep their COBRA coverage until the Exchange is in place and they can access affordable coverage.

11. CREATES NEW, VOLUNTARY, PUBLIC LONG-TERM CARE INSURANCE PROGRAM - Creates a long-term care insurance program to be financed by voluntary payroll deductions to provide benefits to adults who become functionally disabled.

12. HELP FOR EARLY RETIREES - Creates a $10 billion fund to finance a temporary reinsurance program to help offset the costs of expensive health claims for employers that provide health benefits for retirees age 55-64.

13. COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTERS - Increases funding for Community Health Centers to allow for a doubling of the number of patients seen by the centers over the next 5 years.

14. INCREASING NUMBER OF PRIMARY CARE DOCTORS - Provides new investment in training programs to increase the number of primary doctors, nurses, and public health professionals.

As someone who has friends and family who will be positively affected by all of the above changes, I am pleased on their behalf that President Obama has accomplished so much so soon with regard to health care reform. 97% of all bills that reach this point in the process become law, so I'm crossing my fingers. Later on, as with Social Security and Medicare, there will plenty of opportunity to amend the law in Congress. For now, let's help Democrats get HCR passed.

"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step." ~ Lao Tse


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=11487&mesg_id=11487
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
79. Kay and Arrr
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
82. lol...oy
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Piewhacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
83. No Sale. He's fucked up almost everything. Health Care Reform is becoming a joke.
So far no repeal of the antitrust, no public option,
compel everyone to pay for health care.
This isn't reform. Its not an accomplishment. Its shit.
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Autonomy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
84. K&R
my first +1 on this site in quite a while.
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
94. +1
K&R. Great job taking on both sides Mr. President.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
96. K & R! nt
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Kermitt Gribble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:34 PM
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97. Very funny. Thanks for the laugh. n/t
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:18 PM
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105. Oh no you diin't
:yikes:
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:53 AM
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106. Kick
:kick:
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