If Obama were a conservative....

- his solution to the economic crisis would have been to cut the capital gains tax rate and to make the Bush tax cuts permanent, just like conservatives have believed for the past 30 years.

- he would be looking to invade Iran rather than getting out of Iraq, just like conservatives have been talking about for the past 5 years.

- his solution to health care would have been to do NOTHING, which has been the conservative response ever since Nixon.

- He would support the AZ law, passed by conservatives, rather than calling for immigration reform.

- He would have made sure the Times Sq. bomber was shipped off to GITMO and not read his Miranda Rights, like conservatives have been advocating for people like that since 9/11. Same with the underwear bomber.

- He would never have nominated Sonia Sotomayor to the Supreme Court, who voted AGAINST corporate "free speech". He would have nominated a 30 year old Scalia clone straight out of Regents University Law School, just as a conservative would want.

- He would not be working on nuclear nonproliferation in the world, he would be building up our nuclear arsenal, cuz "fuck what the rest of the world thinks!" as a conservative would say.

Is he a liberal, is he a moderate? That is up for legitimate debate. But he ain't a conservative.

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we haven't seen that in a long time

the Clintons are teabaggers.

:rofl:

A Rockefeller Republican also wouldn't have done many of the things you mentioned. Not in a million years.

He's an example of just how far to the right this country has gone.

Mark Hatfield and Bob Packwood of Oregon for example were an interesting mix- and in some ways. considerably more progressive than a LOT of so called "mainstream" Democrats these days- not to mention some of the egregious ones.

When was this country more left?

Give an era and a reason, and I'll be happy to point out exactly how much further to the right we were then, on everything from civil rights to education to social justice to voting rights to freedom of speech to freedom of religion (and on and on...)

So, you're talking about within, say the last 40 years?

40 years ago in the US:
-if you were gay, you couldn't get married, *ANYWHERE*.
-you couldn't even say "bitch" on the radio or television
-school districts were still being legally *forced* by the federal government to desegregate
-Almost all positions of power were held by white, protestant, men
-Women were still ostracized for having jobs, or "worse", careers
-Having sex with another consenting adult, inside your private residence, was an arrest-able crime
-Almost all campaigns were financed by business interests
-The justice system routinely turned a blind eye to police brutality
-Pot was not medically available
-Merely owning any "dirty pictures" was a crime in many states
-Sex toys could not be bought, or sold in the majority of states
-There were 3, or if you were lucky, 4 or 5 sources of daily news. That's it.
-The environmental protection agency was just getting started, and our natural reserves was chock full of pollution
-Cigarettes were marketed as harmless
-Soldiers were murdering protesters on campus
-Presidents and intelligence agencies were not only collecting data on citizens, but actively blackmailing them
-Citizens were arrested, and jailed, if they didn't want to go into the military

Shall I go on?

There's a very strange thing about nostalgia, where people look back at their life before they had jobs, mortgages, kids, car payments, health problems, and think "gee, life was so much simpler, and better, then", without realizing why their lives, and worldview, has changed.

You could also look at Norma Paulus or Dave Frohmeyer as examples, though the former would likely be considered more progressive than Obama is today.

I wasn't in Oregon back then, I was in Arizona... but look no further than Sam Adams to see how far "right" Portland is. (For those of you outside the area, we have a gay mayor whose relationships occasionally cause some local tittering in the media)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Adams_(Oregon_politician) or: http://tinyurl.com/6mv33t

As far as generalizing a few politicians to the whole country, your original assertion was:
"He's an example of just how far to the right this country has gone."

Not "Obama is to the right of *Oregon* politicians", heck, Bernie Sanders would be considered a moderate around here.... it's not for nothing we've been referred to as "The People's Republic of Portland".

You can pick from a host of Rockefeller Republicans and see much of the same mix at the time.

You can string words together and make any Democrat (Clinton, Clinton, Gore) a "Rockefeller Republican," but that doesn't make it valid.

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Many of these came to light in the six weeks or so after he secured the nomination.

My "favorite" as a law type was expanding the death penalty for crimes other than murder, though I can recount many others.

As often as not, these have been gratuitous, and made in the course of interviews or remarks to various groups. In terms of policy, we can also see many of these in decisions made at the level of the agencies (where you can take the "politics of legislating" out of the equation).

As long as we're on the legislative side, one of his first votes as a Senator (one that he raised himself during the campaign as an example of "reaching across the aisle") was his vote to deny Americans access to the civil courts through the so called 2005 Class Action Fairness Act (CAFA), a pet cause of George W. Bush.

This essentially forced most state consumer class actions into the backlogged and Republican dominated federal courts. Like the bankruptcy bill before it, class action reform was a special interest extravaganza, with the insurance, credit card, banking, pharmaceutical and auto industries hiring so many lobbyists that there was nearly one for every member of Congress.

Obama's state was also the focus of intense media campaigns surrounding the bill sponsored by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. But when the bill came up for a vote, Obama's fellow Illinois democrat, Sen. Dick Durbin, didn't cave. Potential presidential rival Hillary Clinton voted against the bill. Even John Kerry, who went on national television during the 2004 presidential debates and said, "John Edwards and I support tort reform," voted against this bill.

That's hardly a liberal position (understatement) but it comports quite well with a Rockefeller Republican.

Want to collect up the votes of John Edwards, Hillary Clinton and a host of other Democratic politicians and weigh them against your statement?

Utterly bogus. For the most part, President Obama has a more liberal voting record than Edwards or Hillary.

Is Biden a Rockefeller Republican too?

Your claim amounts to say anything.

with a poster who's unwilling and/or incapable of engaging in objective analysis on the matter.

Suffice it to say, the evidence is cumulative, and where it doesn't speak for itself, I generally take the President at his word.

claiming that Obama's luck ran out this month because of the oil spill?

That kind of "objective analysis"?

:rofl:

He's been able to "triangulate" successfully (or mostly so) without anything backfiring on him up in a major way until that point.

Once again- just goes to show that you're unwilling or incapable of viewing matters objectively.

FAIL deep.

:rofl:

One can escape adverse consequences for mistakes or policy choices for so long- and then chance has its say.

This is why Chess is a poor analogy for politics.

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realize that probability and luck are not the same thing?

Words have meaning. It's probable that some people will string words together to create nonsensical statements.

An example is claiming Obama's "luck" ran out with the oil spill to advance the bullshit notion that an accident resulting from the failure of a private company is "Obama's Katrina."

Good thing that its not up to you.

Jeff Merkley is a liberal, (actually a progressive) for example- based on public statements, issues advocated, legislation proposed and votes on the record.

:shrug:

more to the right than proffered should he disastrously move the Supreme Court further to the right. :P

and Obama legitimized conservative criticisms of the liberal Warren and Burger courts


etc......................

one "conservative" can now determine what all conservatives think?????

Want some poll numbers?

which is the new public moniker being used by DLC Dems. Are you saying that the DLC/New Dems are not "conservative"? Perhaps you should read up on their little cabal a bit mor,e and then come back and and you can relate what you learned.

Here's a link to get you started: http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=85&subid=109&contentid=894

and face the damn truth

If Obama were a progressive

He would have lived up to his promise to raise taxes on the rich as soon as he gained office. He didn't, he left the tax cuts in place.

He would have reduced the military effort in Iraq and Afghan, he did not, it's increased 4 percent

He would have closed Gitmo like he promised instead of passing new laws allowing execution by presidential decree.

He would have done REAL health care reform instead of making back door deals with big pharma and big health care and not fighting for single payer or even public option.

He would have pushed for real immigration reform instead of the business as usual corporate policy of open borders hiring illegals but no citizenship, because that keeps wages low for everyone.

He would not be working on expanding nuclear energy, offshore drilling, and "clean coal", instead he would put more money and effort into alternative clean energy

Sotomayor didn't change the balance of the court Obama's next appointment will show his true colors.

Is he a predatory corporatist, or just a corporatist? That is up for legitimate debate. But he ain't a progressive.

Obama and most Dem politicians are conservative. the GOP is Fascist.

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Anyone saying that is like a Republican saying McCain is a liberal. They just prove that they are so far out to one side, they will never be happy.

He isn't what passes for conservative these days. But he is a right leaning moderate.

Not that it matters to his detractors.

Oh wait, it is.

calling him a conservative.

The strawman comes in your extreme, insane, ahistorical and just plain wrong list of "conservative" characteristics.

- his solution to the economic crisis would have been to cut the capital gains tax rate and to make the Bush tax cuts permanent, just like conservatives have believed for the past 30 years.

This is not conservative, it is libertarian/objectivist/anarchist, following the ideologies of Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman.


- he would be looking to invade Iran rather than getting out of Iraq, just like conservatives have been talking about for the past 5 years.

Not conservative. Neoconservative. There's a difference.


- his solution to health care would have been to do NOTHING, which has been the conservative response ever since Nixon.

Again, this is objectivism, not conservatism. Nixon was in favor of universal health care.


- He would support the AZ law, passed by conservatives, rather than calling for immigration reform.

Conservatism and racism are two different, and usually incompatible, ideologies. Racism is bad for business.


- He would have made sure the Times Sq. bomber was shipped off to GITMO and not read his Miranda Rights, like conservatives have been advocating for people like that since 9/11. Same with the underwear bomber.

Nothing conservative about violating the constitution.


- He would never have nominated Sonia Sotomayor to the Supreme Court, who voted AGAINST corporate "free speech". He would have nominated a 30 year old Scalia clone straight out of Regents University Law School, just as a conservative would want.

Unknowable hypothetical. Souter, Breyer, Ginsburg and Stevens were all nominated by conservatives. Again, you seem to want to argue against an accusation that Obama is an extreme, fundamentalist right-winger.


- He would not be working on nuclear nonproliferation in the world, he would be building up our nuclear arsenal, cuz "fuck what the rest of the world thinks!" as a conservative would say.

Once again, being anti-nonproliferation is a Neocon position. Many conservatives, including Reagan, supported reducing our nuclear arsenal.


So there you have it. Strawman, QED.


You want a real debate? Convince me that Obama is not a thoughtful, pragmatic, pro-corporate, conservative Democrat.

NT

You don't get to redefine words just to win an argument. If you want to be honest about it, just say you're thankful that Obama is not a dumbass, teabagging neocon. We'll all agree.

looks like a socialist. If you are to the ultra left he looks like a fascist.
I find these arguments of where to peg politicians very silly to begin with. Are we talking only in the US? Obama is a moderate center to center-left Dem. Are we talking about the world? The US is to the right of many major industrialized countries. Does that make him a conservative then? Who the hell knows? Every country is different. We also have a two party system that clouds it all. Big Tents or coalitions? What does the US really want?

He actually believe in progress, and he despise purity.

He needs no apology, especially to people from the left who didn't support him to begin with.

...look like "progress" while maintaining the corporate status quo.

:eyes:

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What you describe are republican policies. Republicans are radical reactionary statists, not conservatives.