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DrToast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:13 PM
Original message
Calling Rand Paul racist is not a political winner
Edited on Thu May-20-10 09:14 PM by DrToast
Here's a good post over on Balloon Juice about why you shouldn't care if Rand Paul is racist:


There are those who think John and I are wrong to want to move the discussion of Rand Paul away from the topic of whether or not Rand Paul is a racist. Let me remind you: a few years ago, there was an extended back-and-forth between Bobo and Paul Krugman about the extent to which Reagan used racism to help himself politically. Republicans tried to deflect it into an argument about whether or not Reagan was racist himself and then trotted out old friends to say how much Reagan loved black people, had black best friends, didn’t see race at all, and so on.

But, you see, it doesn’t matter whether or not Reagan harbored racist feelings in his own heart, he gave his first post-convention speech in Philadelphia, Mississippi and talked about “states’ rights”. He talked about “strapping young bucks” buying T-bone steaks with food stamps. Reagan’s “actual feelings” about race matter about as much as Lindsey Graham’s “actual feelings” about health care reform.

Once things become personal, Republicans can wriggle off the hook. It’s just too easy to trot out black friends or at least stories about black friends and say “see, Rand Paul is not a racist, next question.” The last 40 years of American politics haven’t been destroyed by a bunch of dumb, racist crackers, they’ve been destroyed by cynical conservatives who were all too willing to manipulate dumb, racist crackers for political gain.

Rand Paul is a nut. But the focus has to be on his nutty political positions and the extent to which other Republicans also believe them (the denials have not been strong so far, aside from McConnell, who already hated Paul), not on his “actual feelings”. Republicans have made a lot of hay out of white fear over the past few decades. And now, to use their own words, it’s time to shove it down their throat.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/05/20/it-was-never-personal/
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zulchzulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. I say give him a nice, big, bloody, puss-oozing political black eye early and often
He's a gaffe machine that puts him front and center as the Tea Party's biggest trophy and the more he flails in the water, the better.

This is smashmouth politics. Especially this year...


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RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
2. I tend to agree ...

...but I'd highlight a different part of the post:

"The last 40 years of American politics haven’t been destroyed by a bunch of dumb, racist crackers, they’ve been destroyed by cynical conservatives who were all too willing to manipulate dumb, racist crackers for political gain."

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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. It will energize the base
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WeDidIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Hit them on the whole "no federal regulation at all" thing
That's the dirty underbelly of the beast.
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NI4NI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. That's a winner!!!!!
Edited on Thu May-20-10 11:30 PM by NI4NI
Its a fact proven by so much chaos and so many catastrophes and crimes committed by unregulated greedy business bastards who have destroyed people's lives financially; and natural wild life forever.









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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. He'll be a presidential candidate shortly at this rate a la Reagan nt
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. Wrong! That was then and this is now. "Strapping young bucks"
would have circled the globe in 10 minutes and Reagan would have been toast.

New world, new technologies, new communication, new sensibilities.

It's not your Grampa's Reagan world anymore!
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mucifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I disagree Obama had a few gaffes during his presidential campaign and look where he is now.
Edited on Thu May-20-10 09:35 PM by mucifer
the public has a very short attention span. We will see how many people remember rand paul's segregation statements in November. Of course by then he will probably have 12 more gaffes behind him.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. Calling people racists is losing its effectiveness. Rand Paul would
never have been so forth coming with his views if he did
not believe he could weather the storm from the Left
and many Americans would still be with him.

This guy is no dummy.

You can overuse "racists" and it becomes like water off
a duck's back.
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. wrong
he just got so comfortable preaching to the choir and thought he could do the oaky doke.

As far as people having short attention span, that might be true, but for black folks it isn't true. Just ask bill clinton. I know that kentucky's black population is small, but the national ramifications of this on the gop could be substantial. Notice none of the rethugs has defended him yet. They are running away from his azz.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
36. I know who I'm sending money to for the Senate race in Kentucky.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. Agreed it allows people to discount your criticism of him.
This thing is way over played IMHO. Its a huge jump to say that because he believes in the businesses right to dictate the terms of its services he is racist.
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Atticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. But, the belief that businesses have an absolute right to "dictate the terms of their service" is,
in and of itself, an un-American attitude.

First, what is this "dictate the terms of their service" BS? No one is concerned about being required to serve only whole wheat bread or to sell only clothes made of natural fiber. They are only concerned about being required to do business with people of a different race or culture or sexual preference. They claim the absolute right to discriminate against people who are inherently "different".

And, the reason that the attitude is considered un-American is that it divides us as a people. And, it smacks of that favorite Republican slogan: "Might makes right".

True, not every last person who holds Rand's avowed Libertarian position is a racist---just 99%. And, the other 1% are are either too ignorant or too insensitive to care about the effects of their "purist" philosophy.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. I disagree
I think there is an attempt to pigeonhole him as only believing in the right to discriminate based on race but I dont think thats the reality of what he believes and thats why I think this line of attack is a mistake.

I think he believes it is the right of business to conduct itself however it wants to be it not selling to a race or not selling anything with wheat in it or whatever. I think he believes the market will sort it all out including racial issues. I think theres plenty of evidence to show that doesn't work out but because I think he is wrong it doesn't mean I think its a logical jump to ignore his no government interference stance in the marketplace with racism.

In fact i think it makes the people who want to make that leap, look like they cant argue the merits of the necessity for government regulations so they fall on the race card instead.

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Atticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #19
35. "I think theres plenty of evidence to show that doesn't work out " Do ya think?
And you're saying people like me "can't argue the merits"? You apparently don't recognize "the merits".

They do not involve the parsing and sophistry which Mr. Paul seeks to hide behind and which you apparently condone.

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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Yes I do
And yes if your answer is he is a racist cause he thinks that free markets would police themselves, then I think you're as much of an idiot as he is.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. " A huge jump"?
"Because he believes in the businesses right to dictate the terms of its services he is racist"

Didn't you leave out a few words? Is it really a huge jump to say

"Because he believes in the businesses right to dictate the terms of its services BASED ON RACE he is racist"

If he believes that businesses have the right to base the terms of their service based on RACE, then YES, he and they are RACIST.

What part of that equasion do you not get?
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DrToast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. That's not true
I believe people have the legal right to publish theories that minorities are inferior. That doesn't mean I agree with them or that I would do so myself.

Rand Paul can believe restaurants have a right to discriminate. That alone doesn't make him racist.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You're conflating "speech" with action - just like he tried to do
People can theorize, promote, write, speechify about their racist theories all day long without consequence. But the second it is put into an ACTION that impacts ANOTHER PERSON - you can't eat here, you can't sit here, you can't vote here, you can't live here, BECAUSE OF YOUR RACE it becomes something entirely different.

The Civil Rights Act did not curtail ANYONEs right to free speech. It did curtail the right to discriminate based on RACE in the public marketplace.
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DrToast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. No
What I'm doing is pointing out that there's a difference between doing the act and believing that there's a right to do the act.

Remember, there are still private clubs that can discriminate on the basis of race/sex/gender/religion etc. That's allowed because those are considered private clubs. Some Libertarians believes a private business is a private business. They feel that just because you're open to the public, you still have the right to run your business how you see fit. I don't happen to agree with that, but I think it's plausible that someone can have that viewpoint without making them racist.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. And I find it entirely implausible that someone could have that viewpoint
(Rand's) without being racist themselves. Can one "understand" why some Germans felt there was a Jewish "problem" without being anti-Semitic themselves? No. If one "understands" it, or finds it "plausible", then one agrees with that viewpoint, but is just uncomfortable saying it out loud. That is what makes Rand Paul so bizarre- he went ahead and voiced the absolutely unspeakable. And now you post that calling him on it is not a "winner"? He needs to be called on it every minute, every hour, every day.

Private clubs are different from public businesses. Why try once again to conflate two entirely different topics?

If you are "open to the Public" then you are "open to the public". ALL the public. Not some of the public. Not just the public whose genetics you are "comfortable" with.

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DrToast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I said calling him on it is not a political winner
And I stand by that. I think a better political strategy is to draw attention to his nutty views on the role of government.

I don't think calling him a racist is going to help much politically, especially in Kentucky.

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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. That may be true
but Paul has said he's going to run against Pres Obama and looks forward to doing so. So, it's not only those in KY involved. I don't think we should call him a outright racist because that word is rapidly losing its sting and it gives those who are so inclined a reason to ignore our arguments. My thoughts are tying him closely with the mainstream Republican party. Make every single pub state publicly whether they agree with his views. Make him the face of the republican party which may be easy since they really have no leaders. Don't call him loony - say something like "he's a republican, what do you expect?".
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. That's a thin line. If you create conditions for disenfranchisement and segregation
you have to take responsibility for what you created.

I defend the Klan's right to state their views, not execute them.

The restaurant owner has every right to be a racist and spout anti-semitic, anti-gay, sexist rhetoric too boot but once we cross that line and allow the owner to actually engage in segregationist actions in a location for public use then a whole other line has been crossed.

There is public property for public use.
There is private property for private use.
There is private property for public use.

For some reason Randroid and similar minds only understand the first two and that results in functional racism/sexism/religious intolerance/orientation prejudice/disability status mistreatment/disenfranchisement whether it is felt in the heart or not.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. I don't get the part where you make the jump
From He believes in a businesses right to base the terms on race to him thinking that would be a good idea for the business to do. He thinks the market will push out any business that chooses to do such a thing (I think thats a pipe dream we have seen too many times how unfettered business leads to all sorts of abuse)

His libertarian ideals are in my opinion lunacy but I dont for a second think that because he believes in unfettered business that makes him racist, only dangerously stupid.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 10:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Denying Rand Paul is a racist is a lie.
:shrug:
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-20-10 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. He is a Libertarian...
...and Libertarian ideas on civil rights are dangerous.
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livetohike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. Exactly. The Libertarians use their interpretation of the Constitution
to cover up their basic racist views.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. They attempt to apply economic principles to social problems
They believe the free market will magically cure everything. Morons
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
26. Whether he is a racist or not is besides the point. He enables racists by his ideology.
But it is easier to use ad hominems than discussing the values of different ideologies.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #26
41. +1
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kwolf68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
27. I don't believe necessarily he's a racist

Keep in mind, there are black-owned business too. Based on Paul's theory, those businesses (should they choose) should be allowed to discriminate against white patron should they decide.

Just calling him a racist begs the real issue here. I hate tossing 'racist' around, because unless you've seen him at a Klan rally or something you can't prove he's racist. Just because he is in favor of legislation that would allow for 'racism' (for and against his own white race) does not necessarily make him racist.

It's just like people who don't like Obama...some actually disagree with his positions.

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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Do you deny that his positions create conditions for disenfranchisement and segregation or not?
Edited on Fri May-21-10 12:02 PM by TheKentuckian
That is the essential point.

It doesn't matter in the least that blacks would be empowered to institute racist/anti-gay/sexist/whatever practices or that people with wheelchairs could discriminate against the ambulatory. What matters is if has his way those conditions would be allowed not where his heart is.

He is not applying to my friend.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
30. I agree that calling him a racist is far too simplistic
He has convoluted, multi-detailed answers for questions that are complex. Calling him a racist does not focus on what he is saying, and the public needs to hear a clear refutation of his ideas. Don't let him have the upper hand in a battle of words by reducing rebuttals to such one dimentional characterizations.
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jonestonesusa Donating Member (630 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. If it's the truth, it should be said. Period.
Forget all the pussyfooting around to mollify a shrinking minority of fence-sitting white "independents" that couldn't save Hillary Clinton's campaign either.

It's way past time for Democrats to quit triangulating on their core values. It's really not about Rand Paul. It's about supporting the principle of civil rights for all and criticizing those who don't support civil rights, or those who play politics with civil rights, or those who think like you apparently do that political triangulation counts more than the simple principle: in America in 2010, we believe that the right of all citizens to do business together without racial barriers is the foundation of a healthy economy and human rights too.

We can banter all we want about the literal definition of "racist" and whether we apply it to Rand Paul. What it comes down to is...what does this party stand for? What do we, as individual so-called Democrats and liberals, stand for? I think the biggest problem in the Democratic party is the refusal to stand for a core value - and that's not just a political problem, that's an ethical problem. Personally, I stand wholeheartedly for racial tolerance. I give full respect and unqualified support to the hard-won legal changes that have given this country hope for ending racism, and I'm not going to water down this core belief to accommodate Rand Paul sympathizers. Political expediency only goes so far - at the other end of political expedience is moral bankruptcy.
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andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
32. Calling him a corporatist might be a winning strategy
He thinks businesses should be able to do anything they want without govt interference.
How naive is that?
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crazylikafox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I think you're right.
Saying it's unamerican to criticize BP is nuts.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
34. Just call him what he is, an idiot...
Let him speak, every time he opens his mouth, he just proves he's as stupid as a brick...:D
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
37. For some reason or other it is never a good idea to proclaim the unpleasant truth
about rightwing racist homophobic theocratic assholes. While the Rebagnut Party has amply demonstrated that name calling works quite well, even when backed by nothing resembling actual facts, over here on the alleged left, we are always admonished to hush up now, don't speak the truth about that fucking nazi over there, or this klansman sans sheet over here. No no no, not wise to note the naked truth.

Rand Paul advocated rolling back the clock to 1963. He is a racist homophobic theocratic rightwing asshole who wraps himself in phony rightwing libertarianism to provide ideological cover. Fuck not calling him out for what he is and what he advocates. No thanks.
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Kind of Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-21-10 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
38. I care. I think you're leaving out a whole bunch of
non-whites in your argument. To most of us, Rand is incredibly disconcerting - just as then-Senator Obama's association with Rev. Wright was during the campaign. We had to accept the constant media barrage as, from how I understand it, mainly white people getting to know Obama. And remember, Obama never said anything to the effect of Paul's words nor did he sit in a pew during Wright's infamous speech.

Granted, one man is running for the senate and the other the presidency, they both effect our lives.

I want the same chance to get to "know," Rand as it was so fitting for the president. Put him through the ringer and make him explain himself - if he can. I think we can understand his stance on government as well as see whether this stance enables segregation - again.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
40. If he was being consistent I would agree but he's not, he just doesn't like title 10 of the CRA but
...will accept money for medicare...you know, "government involvement" in private business.

He's full of shit and is dog wissling at the least.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
42. He may not BE a racist himself, but his views have discrimination at their core.
Edited on Sat May-22-10 10:06 PM by rocktivity
Fortunately, calling him an "underqualified, out-of-touch egomaniac" works just as well.

:headbang:
rocktivity
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
43. This Kos Diary says it all as far as I am concerned

*****************************************************************************************
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/5/22/868962/-The-World-of-Rand-PaulPals
The World of Rand Paul & Pals
by Meteor Blades
Sat May 22, 2010 at 03:54:49 PM PDT
*****************************************************************************************

The pictures alone recall when his Libertarian vision was a reality. Anyone who would espouse going back to that time is misguided and yes, ignorant, beyond belief.

The philosophy of Ayn Rand, Libertarianism, objectivism, et al sound completely moronic when voiced by anyone above the age of 19. Most people beyond that age start to develop a world view based on reality. Rand Paul is too out of touch with the real world to hold public office.



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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
44. exploit the enemy where they are vulnerable...
that's like saying calling Palin an unqualified brain-dead ditz isn't a political winner...
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Bert Donating Member (445 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-24-10 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
45. Kick him when he's down
Kick him when he's up too. In fact kick him everywhere, work him over with a bat and run over his smashed body with a truck. Metaphorically speaking of course. And yes he is a racist, and there is no other way to attack them except full frontally. Anyone who thinks playing by the 'civilized' rules of debate with this trash has obviously not paid attention to the types of lies that have been played agaisnt McCain(in the 2000 primary), Gore(he's the same as Bush), Kerry(he only got shot in the ass once while war hero Bush almost won vietnam). Not to mention the Lewinsky debacle and they wont even admit Obama is a christian or even American, they play dirty, mean and sleazy. If you are going to fight Nazis you better be prepared to fight dirty and fight hard and never forget they wouldnt give you an even break if you paid them.

Willie horton ring any bells? welfare queens in cadillacs ring any bells? Stop playing patsies and start kicking ass!
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