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So, if Obama gets the credit for "ending the war in Iraq"...

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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:17 PM
Original message
So, if Obama gets the credit for "ending the war in Iraq"...
does that mean that he will also get the blame when Iraq remains unstable, as it most likely will?

By accepting credit for Bush's withdrawal plan, we're just giving the right-wing ammo for the inevitable accusations that the troops were pulled out too soon.
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denimgirly Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Damned Either Way -- Welcome to being a Democrat.
It's all about the oil and when that is the case and money is involved a region will always be rife with corruption and instability. Nothing unexpected. Iraq is controllably unstable right now which will expectedly rise in instability over the years. But by that time Obama will be out of office and kicking back on $millions of appearance fees like Clinton.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Look, they told you NOT to take the blue pills.
Now you're gonna need a guide from New Mexico. They're the best.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
3. that's the strange part about his choice
By executing a withdrawl plan that Bush probably didn't even expect to execute, he basically accepted the plan Bush made. Okay, there's a political calculation there of CYA with the right if and when things go to hell. "I accepted the plan that Bush negotiated and didn't want to try to renegotiate". I don't like the concept, but it has its political calculation.

But he is now trying to do the whole "I got us out if Iraq". Well, yeah, I suspect he will considering that Bush/McCain never intended to get this far. But if he was going to take ownership of it, why not do something for which he could truly claim credit, such as accelerating it. He seems to lose both ways here. He had little to do with it, and it may go to shit. How's that gonna work out for him?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Reagan took credit for the Berlin Wall..
:shrug:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. "By accepting credit for Bush's withdrawal plan" It's not Bush's withdrawal plan
Edited on Thu Aug-19-10 02:28 PM by ProSense
Frankly, on the issue of Iraq, Bush deserves nothing but scorn. This is all President Obama.

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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Wrong.
U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement:

"On December 14, 2008, U.S. President George W. Bush signed the security pact with Iraq."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%93Iraq_Status_of_Forces_Agreement
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Are you saying that Obama took a Bush lie and made it happen?
Good on him, if that's the case. I'm still not convinced... and Wiki has led me down the garden path more than once.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Not wrong,
Bush resisted withdrawal with every fiber in his body. He was forced to make the agreement.

Bush signed the agreement to try to salvage his legacy

On December 14, 2008, U.S. President George W. Bush signed the security pact with Iraq. In his fourth and final trip to Iraq, the president appeared with Iraq's prime minister and said more work is to be done.<61> During the press conference discussing the signing of the pact<62> with Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki in his palace in the heavily fortified Green Zone, President Bush dodged two shoes thrown at him from the audience. The man who threw his shoes, Muntadhar al-Zaidi, an Iraqi journalist with Egypt-based al-Baghdadia television network, could be heard yelling in Arabic: "This is a farewell ... you dog!" When throwing his second shoe, al-Zaidi could be heard yelling: "This is from the widows, the orphans and those who were killed in Iraq!”<63> While pinned on the ground by security personnel, he screamed: "You killed the Iraqis!"<64> As the man’s screaming could be heard outside, Bush said “That’s what people do in a free society, draw attention to themselves."


And you can best believe if Bush or McCain had their way, the U.S. would be in Iraq for 10 more years.

A referendum on the pact between the United States and Iraq will be held in Iraq before 30 July 2009.<69> If the referendum result is against the SOFA, the Iraqi government will give notice to end the agreement and US troops will be required to leave Iraq within one year - by July 2010.<70> "If the Iraqi people reject the pact in the referendum ... the government of Iraq will be committed, according to the law, to the result of the referendum and will convey this will to the American administration. The pact will be annulled", Iraq's Sunni Vice-President Tareq al-Hashemi said. The deal can be terminated if either signatory gives the other side a year's notice.<71>

White House spokesman Dana Perino said in December 2008 that "if there is a national referendum, Iraq is a sovereign country, and they could decide to do lots of different things with it." "But I think that the fact that their representative leadership has signed this agreement today, that they recognize that they are going to continue to need our help for the next little while", she continued.<72>

"We do understand that the Iraqi military is not going to get built out in the three years. We do need many more years. It might be 10 years," Iraqi government spokesman Ali al Dabbagh said in December 2008. "We expected something odd," said Alaa Maki, a member of a Sunni Muslim political bloc that's forced Maliki to put the security agreement before voters as a referendum next year. "That is the reason we pushed for the referendum", he said. Mahmoud Othman, a Kurdish member of parliament who also voted for the pact, said "for us to think about extending the U.S. presence by planning another (security agreement) is premature."<73> "What was announced about the Iraqi forces needing 10 years in order to be ready is only his personal point of view and it doesn't represent the opinion of the Iraqi government," Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's office said in a written statement. "I think that al-Dabbagh's comments are the first sign that nobody is going to adhere to the timetables and the U.S. soldiers are staying in Iraq beyond the 2011 date," said Sadrist MP Nasir al-Saadi.<74>

Thousands of Iraqi have gathered weekly after Friday prayers and shouted anti-US and anti-Israeli slogans protesting the security pact between Baghdad and Washington. A protester said that despite the approval of the Interim Security pact, the Iraqi people would break it in a referendum next year.<75>


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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Purely speculation on your part.
The excerpts you quote do nothing to back up your assertions.

You can guess all you want about what "Bush really wanted" or what "McCain would have done". Unless you can refute the FACT that Bush signed the agreement I won't waste any more of my time on your claims.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Not speculation.
2006: Bush on Iraq: ‘We’re Not Leaving So Long As I’m The President’

2007: Bush vetoes war-funding bill with withdrawal timetable

Political expediency last year in office:

In reversal, Bush to accept Iraq withdrawal timetable

(AFP) – Aug 22, 2008

CRAWFORD, Texas (AFP) — From "surrender date" to "aspirational time horizon," US President George W. Bush seemed poised Friday to seal a reversal in Iraq policy by accepting a target withdrawal date.

But the White House poured cold water on Iraqi claims that Washington and Baghdad had reached a deal that would see all US combat troops out of Iraqi cities by next June and US forces gone from the war-torn country by late 2011.

<...>

The White House, which had in the past rejected firm withdrawal timetables as setting a "surrender date," now says that conditions on the ground allow for "aspirational time horizons" for bringing US troops home.

As recently as May 2007, Bush had defiantly declared: "It makes no sense to tell the enemy when you plan to start withdrawing. All the terrorists would have to do is mark their calendars and gather their strength."

more


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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Completely off point.
I've never said that when BUSH SIGNED THE AGREEMENT that it was sincere, or that it wasn't a flip-flop, or that it wasn't a just a political ploy to put Obama in a no-win situation. You can speculate all you want about the many possible motives but that still doesn't change the FACT that Bush signed the agreement.

Cheers.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. "I've never said that when BUSH SIGNED THE AGREEMENT that it was sincere"
If it wasn't sincere, what's your point: "the FACT that Bush signed the agreement."


The fact is that President Obama withdrew the troops.


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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-10 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
44. You've got nothing to backup your statement.
"it's not Bush's withdrawal plan".

That's what you said and I've proven you wrong.

I asked a valid question about taking credit AND accepting blame. I've made no assertions as to Bush's motives or true intentions (which none of us can know for sure) but that's all you want to talk about.

If you think that "last post wins" no matter how irrelevant it may be then go ahead and play that game.

I'm done with your bullshit.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. That's where he gets trapped
Yes, Bush negotiated this, but no way McCain executes it. So Obama gets to run around saying that he DID execute Bush's plan, and McCain wouldn't have executed Bush's plan. Either way it's Bush's plan. He should have "personalized" it and made substantive changes so he could claim the results for himself. Unfortunately, he kept Gates and Gates was committed to the plan.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Yeah, he's trapped
Everyone who isn't a political hack is sitting around thinking: Finally, Bush withdraws from Iraq.

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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Ha!
No, I know what ya mean. It's really more of a case of the body politic than any dinner table conversation. It will become a media mantra, I've heard it already, which then feeds into the public conciousness.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Screw today's BS media
Even they can't rewrite history.



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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. Why do you think Bush signed that???
You aren't dumb enough to think that Bush wanted to leave, are you?

Obama had been saying that once elected, he'd get us out in 16 months.

So Bush, as he leaves the building, signs an agreement to do exactly what Obama said he would do. Bush knows what Obama plans to do, so he does the political move to undercut Obama.

Why?? So that when Obama actually gets it done, the GOP will claim it was Bush's plan. Bush was re-writing history on his way out the door.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-10 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #28
45. Not to mention....
That a certain percentage of dimwits will assume that Obama is just "following the Bush Plan" for withdrawal.

:eyes:
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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-10 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. Not to mention...
That a certain percentage of DU will resort to personal attacks when an honest question makes them uncomfortable.

Too bad.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-10 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. It's not an honest question, and you know it...
You're here to stir up shit and cause division.
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Jokerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-10 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. You don't have a clue about my motivations.
Your insults and hollow accusations are far more divisive than anything I've posted on this board in the last nine years.
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Jeff In Milwaukee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-10 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Sure thing, ace...
At least we're all certain that you're the victim here of my hurtful and divisive posts.

Thank God you made that clear.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
5. Since MSNBC as far as I can see,
is the only Cable News reporting it, WHO WILL KNOW...
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. ...
:rofl:
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think that if the war ends during his Presidency, he should get credit
I will be waiting for it to happen, and will be very glad when it's ended.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. it ended yesterday, silly, time for a VICTORY PARADE!11
WE'RE NUMBER ONE!!!1
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. When Obama jets onto a troop ship, holds them up for a day, & struts around with a codpiece....
Let me know when that happens, willya?

Hekate
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I guess you missed the media and message board wargasm
Edited on Thu Aug-19-10 03:22 PM by LostinVA
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
36. I was busy watching Rachel report from the Green Zone and Keith give an accurate review of how we...
Edited on Thu Aug-19-10 06:47 PM by Hekate
... got there in the first place. Both were performing journalism pretty well, I thought, and no wargasms in sight.

So yeah, I guess I missed all that.

Hekate
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. OOPS! I forgot
Sorry, Jonny.

Seriously, if this was any other President dong and saying this...

My BIL, a disabled vet, injured in service for his country after 12 years in the military and who was in three "hot spots," says this is BS. He was military intel and still does the same thing as a civilian as he did in the Army. I believe him, not the Brass, not the Admin, not the Media.

You're an old salt, you know the score.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. I'm going to have to wait and see before deciding if this war is over.
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monmouth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. FReepers last night were thanking gawd for Bush and Rummy...LOL...n/t
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
23. Pathetic
Get a hold of yourself.
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BklnDem75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
25. I thought it was Obama's war now
That means he gets the credit.
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
26. BS! Even Rachel Maddow pointed out last night how this was Obama's plan
not to mention it's what he campaigned on during the election. How soon people willfully forget....or maybe they're just stupid.
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
27. Barack Obama Campaign Promise No. 126: Begin removing combat brigades from Iraq
Obama sets date for withdrawal of troops from Iraq
Updated: Friday, February 27th, 2009 | By Robert Farley

"Today, I have come to speak to you about how the war in Iraq will end," President Obama said in a formal announcement of a new Iraq strategy at Camp Lejeune, a Marine Corps base in North Carolina, on Feb. 27.

Under the new plan, Obama said, the United States will remove all combat troops by Aug. 31, 2010.

The plan came about, Obama said, after a comprehensive review of the U.S. strategy in Iraq by a national security team that included the defense secretary, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and commanders on the ground in Iraq. The plan to "transition to full Iraqi responsibility" begins, he said, with the "responsible removal of our combat brigades from Iraq."

"As a candidate for president, I made clear my support for a timeline of 16 months to carry out this drawdown, while pledging to consult closely with our military commanders upon taking office to ensure that we preserve the gains we’ve made and protect our troops," Obama said. "Those consultations are now complete, and I have chosen a timeline that will remove our combat brigades over the next 18 months.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/126/begin-removing-combat-brigades-from-iraq/

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becxx Donating Member (173 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
30. Politics and hype
Personally, I thought this was a lot of hype. We pulled out a handful of troops and 50,000 still remain. I think the war machine is spinning the situation a lot.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
31. The maniacal R's believe that Reagan destroyed the USSR...
quite the stretch there, he just happened to be warming a seat in the Oval Office when the Soviet Union went to pot. Truman, Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon and the other presidents set the stage for the demise by outspending them and sending the USSR into chaos by having little to no funds.

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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Actually, Reagan hadn't been warming a seat in the Oval Office for 2 years
when the Soviet Union "went to pot", in 1991.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. You are corrrect...my bad...
regardless, they pushed it all on Reagan as if here a saint sent from God ...;)
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. You are correct about that
Even though the Soviet Union officially fell apart more than 2 years after the Great Prevaricator left office, somehow they give him full credit for singlehandedly accomplishing that feat.

Interestingly, I had studied under two different professors at two different universities whose field of expertise was the USSR, and both of them had predicted in the early '80s that the USSR would collapse due to "irreparable domestic problems"
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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
32. Bush had a plan for Iraq?
Tell us another joke!
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4lbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
33. If Bush could run for a third term and win, or if McCain won, the RIIC (Repuke Idiot In Charge)
would find some way to back out of the August 2010 withdrawal.

So, yes, Obama withdrew the troops, like he promised during the campaign.

A Repuke would find any way to keep all 140,000 troops there.


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seattleblue Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
34. He gets credit when he pulls out all the troops including the "support" troops.
And when he ends support for the private armies running around the country. He needs to say we did all we can do and now is the time to go home.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
35. Shouldn't we wait until the remaining 50,000 tropps are pulled out before bestowing credit? nt
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MikeW Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
41. Yep ... same goes for Afg if it returns to a hell hole after we pull out
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Arkana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
42. Yeah, cause Dubya and his cronies were so committed to drawing down in Iraq.
If you don't think the Bushies would have found excuse after excuse to delay leaving, then I'd ask you what you're doing here.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-19-10 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
43. facepalm
Edited on Thu Aug-19-10 11:09 PM by AtomicKitten
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phleshdef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-10 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
50. History will report that President Barack Obama oversaw the end of the war in Iraq.
And there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-20-10 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
51. It WASN'T Bush's plan to withdraw all combat troops by 8/31/10. It was OBAMA'S. Bush's
Edited on Fri Aug-20-10 06:35 PM by jenmito
withdrawal plan was to withdraw all troops by 12/31/11.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-21-10 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
52. The Republicans can pay for any more wars out of their own pockets
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