These Are The Times

I have rarely posted here over the past four months – not due to lack of interest, but due to a desire to step back and analyze what is being posted here, and why.

I am known as a “cheerleader” for this Administration (and don’t taze me, Mod bros, for having invoked a term considered taboo). The truth is that I have chosen to opine on the positives of this president and his administration – a personal choice that in no way denotes the sense of “worship” that I, along with others, have been accused of.

I do not opine on this Administration’s position on education – because there are teachers here who are vastly more knowledgeable than I on the subject. And I defer to their better judgment on how such policies impact not only on their ability to teach, but the students they hope to educate.

I do not opine on the need for electoral reform, environmental issues, GBLT rights – and a myriad of other topics – because we have among us experts in the fields; i.e. people who have made such subjects a cause celebre, and know (far better than I) whereof they speak.

I believe we have often confused support for this Presidency as blind acquiescence – just as often as we’ve confused valid criticism of its policies as unsupported bashing. The sincere among us (on both “sides”, if you will) often raise our voices out of hot-headed passion rather than cooler heads being allowed to prevail. And vice-versa.

I have raised two children, and have supported them throughout. Although I may have disagreed (vehemently at times) with their choice of career, companions, lifestyle, education, career opportunities, etc., my support has been unwavering. Support does not always equal agreement with every choice – just as criticism does not always equal a complete withdrawal of support. It is a distinction with a difference – and I believe a lot of us (myself included) have failed miserably in discerning the difference between the two. Supporting the current Administration does not equate to agreement with its every decision; criticism of this Administration does not equate to bashing. We would all be wise to note the difference.

There are those among us (and I’m not naming names, but I think the vast majority of us know who they are) who have consistently posted only the most negative of comments, article excerpts, op-eds they can find on the internetz and the MSM, in order to quash optimism and dissuade voters from thinking that their vote matters.

There are those among us who have labelled themselves as representative of “true progressives’, “true leftists”, “true Democrats”, and have, in the doing, labelled all of those who disagree with their every agenda item as somehow being less worthy, less valid, less sincere in our efforts to see this country move forward rather than backward, as though such labels – self-proclaimed and self-affixed – are to be accepted without question, or factual support.

We are – and always have been, forever and ever, amen – the party of the Big Tent. Our strength has always been not our sameness, but our diversity; our sweeping inclusion of the centrists, the moderately-left, the extreme left, and everyone who falls within the scope of those who desire change for the better, immediate or painstakingly gradual, as the case may be.

“You’re either with us or against us.” It’s a phrase that, once uttered by one G.W. Bush, immediately fell into disrepute. Accepted as a RW talking point and nothing more, it lost its true meaning as a rallying cry for those of us who, on the left, pose it as a valid question. You are either with us or against us – you are either with the Democrats who, with all of their failings and flaws, are for progress – or you are with those who would see our nation move backwards in opposition to every step forward the Democrats have made, no matter how slight you might perceive such steps to be.

There are times when we must choose our battles – not only against the “other side”, but amongst ourselves. There are times when we must, as a widely diverse group, speak up as individuals – and there are times when we must speak with one voice.

The time to speak as one is now.

Speak up in November. Or forever hold your piece – for what it’s worth after-the-fact.

“I told you so” may warrant kudos on certain websites, populated by those who deem themselves to be (despite all numbers to the contrary), the “real voice” of the Party – as though there is some victory to be found in the defeat of those who purport to be the “base” thereof.

You’re either with the Democratic Party, or you’re against it.

Pick. A. Fuckin'. Side.

I would think that most Democrats would object to the "get in line and shut up" tone of this piece.

you have a clouded, pre-conceived view of what, or who, constitutes "most Democrats." If you perceive the OP as a get-in-line-and-shut-up message, you must be reading a different version than the one I read.

I read the version that urges Democrats to pull together for the good of our nation, and to strive to protect those gains (however small) that we have fought for -- as Democrats.

future in the US, either a Republican or a Democrat will win a vast majority of contested elections, and Third Party candidates will be either inconsequential, or act as spoilers in some races and allow Republicans to win.

That bit of real-world fact suggests that if you want to make your vote count, you will either vote Republican or Democratic: Pick. A. Fuckin'. Side.

You can criticize Democrats all you want, but on election day, a Democrat will remain the best hope for the future of this country. If you do not believe that, then as Nance suggests, you need to reassess your political stance. If you are an "Independent" who subscribes to the "best man (or woman)" school-of-thought, then "picking a side" is something that you may not understand.

I have picked a side, and I am an American Democrat.

react well to be told to "pick a Fucking side". Her insinuation as yours is that we are not all Democrats, that we havent "picked a FUCKING side." Please see http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=440840&mesg_id=442503

I have read many posts, some in this thread, indicating a disillusionment among GOOD AMERICAN DEMOCRATS with the current administration. I understand them completely. These people need to be rallied, NOT THREATENED. Is it wrong for them to want more for the people?

The only reason I can think of for people, like Rahm, to belittle and threaten the left, is that they are trying to impress the centrists to get their votes. They are taking the left for granted. And then to add insult to injury, they threaten that if the left doesnt toe the line, we will get another Bush.

I am an American Democrat party member. I participate locally and support Democrats nationally. I will fight hard for Democrats in fact that's why I am upset by this OP. I feel it hurts Democrats more than it helps.

explanation, and tend to agree with some of your points, however, we will just have to agree to disagree on the meaning and intent of this particular OP. I read it as a rallying cry to ALL Democrats to put ideological differences aside for the moment, and to support even Democrats that may not meet all of our standards. I read this OP as an honest, and needed, call to the extremely polarized Democratic factions here on DU to unify for the upcoming elections as Democrats first, and ideologues last. And, because we are having this conversation, I don't believe that the OP, or its message has "failed" at all. I am heartened by the many positive responses to this OP.

To my way of thinking, the terms "Left," "Far Left," "Progressive," and "Liberal," can, and do, mean very different things to most Middle American Democrats. The one thing that we can all agree on, however, is that the term "Neoconservative" and its proponents bodes ill for this nation. We, as American Democrats, MUST ensure a Democratic majority in Congress, and continued control of the Oval Office for as long as possible.

The call to "Pick. A. Fuckin. Side." I believe, refers to Democrats vs. Republicans, or "Independents" vs. both Democrats and Republicans, and NOT the various flavors of Democrats vs. each other.

We both want the same thing. I just disagree that OP's like this are helping. You say that there are lots of positive responses and I agree. But all of the positive responses are from those that already agreed with the OP. I doubt that anybody on the fence was swayed. In fact, I believe that the OP pissed off a lot of people. Look at all the deleted messages here. Not a very unifying OP.

Again, we need to rally together, not tell each other to "pick a fucking side".

deleted messages appear to be from one, or maybe two people at most, and is not a fair assessment of the overall response to the OP. Again, I believe that you, and others, are purposely choosing to interpret the OP as telling other Democrats ("each other") to "Pick. A. Fuckin'. Side." "Picking a side," obviously refers to those who are here to bash Democrats for the sole purpose of causing disruption.

"Picking a side" refers to those DU members who have stated that they are so "disgusted" with Democrats, they will either not vote, or vote for the "best person" regardless of political affiliation. It refers to "Independents," and Third-Party promoters who will vote for "spoilers," and justify it by claiming they are taking the "high ground."

"Picking a side" does NOT refer to Democrats who are critical of their Party, or the current administration, but are sensible enough to see that the alternatives to voting a straight Democratic ticket are not an option if we are to keep the dangerous likes of Gingrich, O'Donnell, and Palin out of office.

I agree that those who are only here to disrupt, or who are using DU to espouse an ideology which does NOT represent mainstream American Democrats (Third Party promoters) will not likely be swayed to pick the Democratic side, or to vote Democratic. In that case -- no harm, no foul -- as they were not going to vote Democratic in any event.

left. I dont know who the mysterious left is but I am sick of the continued attacks. I have asked every single poster that I can that trashes the left to tell me "On what issues do you disagree with whom ever the left is". I have never gotten a response. Why the attacks on the left?

Nance says that some proclaim themselves to be the left and trash the president. I am aware there are such people. That is no excuse to wage war.

At a time when we need to pull together, this author continues to sow dissent.

And I ask you, who i assume arent on the "left", on what issues do you disagree with who ever you thinks is the left?

Medicare for all? Single payer health insurance? The Bush Wars? Patriot Act? DADT? Military Commissions Act? Domestic spying? Prosecuting the Bush war criminals? More jobs? Corporate bailouts?

On which of these issues to you disagree with the stand of the left?????

I will not be drawn into a discussion about the expansive ideological makeup of Democrats, or their individual causes. Since I am seven decades old, my perceptions of what constitutes the political ideological spectrum have changed with almost every passing decade since I became old enough to vote. It is an ever-changing landscape. And, FWIW, it appears that you are very close to "calling out" the author of this OP. Let's just stick to the premise of the OP and leave personal animosity out of it, okay?

I am an American Democrat (as opposed to the various European versions of Social Democrats) who believes that there are two basic kinds of people: those who believe in the "survival of the fittest" societal model, and those of us who believe that we are indeed our brother's keeper. By and large Republicans fall into the former category, and Democrats into the latter.

I pay little attention to "Independents," and Third-Party proponents who are very vocal about their dissatisfaction with both Republicans AND Democrats. In reality (and for the foreseeable future) a candidate from one of the two mainstream political Parties will win the vast majority of most contested political offices. I choose to vote for Democrats since voting every two- to four-years is my only meaningful input (by Constitutional design) into our representative form of government. It is a deliberately slow process as foreseen by the Founders to be the prudent and cautious approach to societal change.

Fortunately, I have lived long enough to have witnessed Democrats lead this country out of an atmosphere of inequity, servitude, poverty, and ignorance into the light of equality, knowledge, and a chance at a decent life for all. We still have a long way to go, but our history gives us the impetus and edge to continue our successes. I am pleased that Democrats have managed to make even small changes for the better in this, and previous administrations. It is not about me you see, rather it is about laying the foundations for improvement by future generations of forward-thinking Americans.

Spewing vitriol and animosity toward fellow Democrats, be they "Left," "Far Left," "Liberal," "Centrist," or any combination of those somewhat meaningless terms, is a learned behavior born of the Ronny Raygun, Newt Gingrich, Lee Atwater hate machine of the 70s and 80s in their successful attempts to demonize Liberalism. Even Democrats began to run from the label. The most recent Democratic Primary Campaign was the worst Internet "me first" spectacle by so-called "Progressives" I have ever witnessed in my relatively long-lived political experience. The aftermath of that sad affair is being carried on to this day, and has taken on an extremely divisive, and meaningless, life of its own.

In reality, there are only two viable political Parties in the United States, and a candidate from one of those affiliations will win the vast majority of the political seats available. The winners, in turn, will "appoint" others of their Party to positions of power. Voting anything but a straight Democratic ticket (including voting for a "spoiler" candidate) will only result in opening the door for Republicans to promote their ideas for social regression, and a worsening American economy.

There are only two sides: Republican, or Democratic. Pick the one which will provide the most good for the most people -- however long that takes.

you are. I am not sure what your motivation could be. I think we agree on the issues but you wont say. You will not tell me how you feel about the same issues the left is fighting for. What is your motive?

your question, but you may have missed it. From my previous post:

"Spewing vitriol and animosity toward fellow Democrats, be they "Left," "Far Left," "Liberal," "Centrist," or any combination of those somewhat meaningless terms, is a learned behavior born of the Ronny Raygun, Newt Gingrich, Lee Atwater hate machine of the 70s and 80s in their successful attempts to demonize Liberalism. Even Democrats began to run from the label. The most recent Democratic Primary Campaign was the worst Internet "me first" spectacle by so-called "Progressives" I have ever witnessed in my relatively long-lived political experience. The aftermath of that sad affair is being carried on to this day, and has taken on an extremely divisive, and meaningless, life of its own."

If you believe that calling yourself "Left" somehow sets you apart from mainstream Democrats, and gives you some sort of moral superiority, then please re-read the paragraph above. The vitriol and divisiveness begun during the 2008 Primary Campaign is alive and well at DU, while the vast majority of non-vocal Democrats have moved on.

There is no viable Left Party, Centrist Party, or Independent Party -- only a viable Democratic Party whose candidates will either win, or lose, seats. Who then, is driving a wedge into the heart of the Democratic Party at DU? Hint: it is not mainstream, Middle American Democrats.

as left. I dont feel "some sort of moral superiority" and I am sickened that you and who ever your side is keep saying that. You, yes you and Nance and Rambo are the ones driving a wedge between who ever you think you are and who ever YOU think is the left.

I have asked repeatedly for YOU to explain who the left is and how they differ from you and Nance and Rambo. But you wont say.

Funny how you will allow Arlen Specter in "your" tent but not the "left" (your definition).

If you want a united party, you are not doing a very good job.

You, my friend, are the one who defined the Left as a DU group a few posts up: "You will not tell me how you feel about the same issues the left is fighting for. What is your motive?" Your words -- not mine. I don't define ANYONE as being anything other than a Republican or a Democrat.

I have repeatedly attempted to tell you that those labels are meaningless to me, and to most Democrats I know. I would never attempt to define anyone as anything other than a Democrat, or a Republican. The only "side" I am on is being an American first, and a Democrat next. If you feel a need to define yourself as something other than a Democrat, then you are having the identity crisis and not me. The last time I checked, there are only two major "sides": Republicans and Democrats. Those who self-identify as "Independents," or subscribe to Third-Party ideologies do not have any meaningful representation at ANY level of government, and are no better than the Tea Baggers.

I will say it one last time: I am an American Democrat. If someone registers in their voting district as a Democrat, and votes Democratic, then I suspect they are Democrats as well. I have never seen a ballot, or a voter registration form that asks if the voter is "Left," "Right," or "Centrist." I have nothing but contempt for those who pretend to be "Independent" and refuse to pick a side, and waste their votes on spoiler candidates, or threaten to withhold their vote if their "demands" are not met.

You are free to call yourself anything you like. My only hope is that you vote Democratic. You may now have the last word, as it is evident that you only want to pick a fight with someone you perceive to be your opponent. Nothing could be further from the truth bubba...;-)

I know where I am...

I plan to vote Democratic this fall...because the other side is just plain unacceptable.


Recommended.

We all want to move this country forward but the administration has gone out of their way to try to alienate the liberal wing and the Progressives in the Democratic Party. We will not be taking that out on good Democratic members of congress. But we will remember it in the 2012 primary season.

Democrats just remember this - they are and always will be 1000% better than any republican. So vote Democratic and show the republicans we CAN.

Word.

I'm hoping Howard Dean could be the FDR we so desperately need.

That is why we need to keep a Democratic majority in both the House and the Senate.

:crazy:

:rofl:

I just LOVE non sequitars that make absolutely no sense whatsoever!!!

medal without even seeing the posts that will appear in the p.m.

Can't believe that one will be topped.

It'll be a new experience.

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"Speak up in November".. There's a big primary going on here tomorrow, too.:hi:

the only poll that means anything is the one we go to, (or not), on election day.

Like most people, I am not 100% happy with what the administration has not done, I think there is always room for other things that need to to be addressed. But I know that this administration. The thought, regardless of how remote that Boehner might become Speaker should be enough to move every D and I to the polls to ensure this has no chance of becoming a reality.

Beyond that though, I am often amazed that individuals don't vote as much as they should. So many local things are on ballots that the motivation to get to the polls should be incredible. There are always those, in both parties that will sit out an election because they have a one issue point of view. Getting a look at the bigger picture would help immensely, for if D's stay home, there is a possibility that people will find themselves in a true world of despair. If single issue voters thisk they have it hard now...if the GOP gets in power, not only will their issue never be addressed, (regardless of what issue it may be), but we will turn back and look like the 19th century. The neo-cons need to stomped out of existence...and only voters can do that.

Yes, it's time to come together for the good of the country.

:hi:

:thumbsup:

There is also the "I am getting too fucking old to go with the lesser of two evils" group.

I tell you what, I am getting too fucking old not to compromise.

It is debatable if this County could survive any more Republican rule. There are a boat load of issues that I want handled, and strongly believe need to be addressed immediately. But my personal requirements and requests do not outweigh what is good for all and what can reasonably be accomplished.

... do not outweigh what is good for all and what can reasonably be accomplished."

Amen.

What is good for all should outweigh what is good for the individual. That's what this party should be all about.

in the original post and in this post.

I would add to "What is good for all should outweigh what is good for the individual" the simple line of: "And when what has been attempted and/or accomplished for the good of all still leaves you wanting ... consider the known alternative."

That is what this party should be all about.

I plan to vote for democrats this fall, no matter how many times they disappoint me, because the alternative would not only disappoint me, it terrifies me.

That is exactly how I feel. Oh, and also the "I am getting too fucking old not to compromise" - yes on that as well.

And I am so glad Nance G. wrote the OP - it says what has been in my mind and heart on this issue. And it is a thought that needed to be expressed forcefully here. I had about given up hope that anyone had such clarity on the core issue, or the courage to give it voice, considering what I've been reading here at DU.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

... especially DEM Rockettes!!!

Thanks!

I was wondering when you'd post this

... and I was wondering how long it would take you (or one of your compatriots) to post an LOL response.

Some here take the upcoming elections seriously. Others think it is a matter of on-line LOL!!!

Thanks for weighing in on where you stand.

:hi:

which is why I PAID ATTENTION LAST TIME

That goes for all those independent "vote for the man not the party" people too.

K&R great thoughts Nance!

That doesn't mean I'm against it, it means I'm for traditional Democratic values. If the current so-called "Democratic Party" is no longer upholding those values, then under the current system I have nowhere to turn. Sure, I'll vote Dem this November since that is my only viable option under the current corrupt system which will continue its downward spiral into complete chaos or fascism. But that doesn't mean I support what the so-called "Democratic Party" has become. I am sad to see you posting this black-and-white choice, though I understand the fear which led to the post - the fear of the greater evil winning. Ultimately it won't matter, the system will come crashing down - it will just happen sooner with Republicans in charge.

... are only as strong as the Democratic voters who uphold them, and fight for them.

No personal offense meant, but when you view the Party as something outside yourself, you may be part of the problems within it.

Think about it.

(but first, I must analyze the entire supposition)

If in fact I am viewing the Democratic Party as something outside myself,

then by definition I must BE something outside the Democratic Party

since how I view myself defines myself, at least as far as politics goes.

Therefore, if I view myself as something outside the Democratic Party, then I AM something outside the Democratic Party, and therefore I cannot be a part of the problem within it.

----------------

However, let's assume that there's some kind of fallacy in my argument, or that I'm somehow twisting your words to mean something they don't mean.

In that case, I may be a part of the problem within the Democratic Party.

If that is true, then I am not alone. How did I and other Democrats, who truly believe in the ideals of the Democratic Party, get to become part of the problem? It's called learned helplessness. We fight for what we believe in, and then discover that we've been lied to, and that the politicians we believed in were not really willing to fight for what they SAID they believed in. Or worse, perhaps they never really believed in what they claimed to believe in. Or, perhaps they really did believe what they said, but then discovered that the reality of the political system left them little choice but to do what was necessary to keep their cushy job regardless of their actual beliefs; since if they didn't, someone else would be happy to take their seat and all the nice money and benefits that came with it. And so they became corrupted by the system.

Then we become demoralized, and we stay home. Or we go vote because we know that staying home is even worse - but we no longer make campaign contributions in the form of money or time and effort, because first of all we don't HAVE the money since the people we voted for didn't produce for us, and second of all we don't have the motivation because we feel that we've been played for fools.

It's just human nature. Can you really put the blame on people like me for having been demoralized? I don't suggest that people stay home, or that they vote third party when a race is close enough that it could cause the Democrat to lose. I don't suggest that people not campaign for or donate to Democrats. It's my own personal decision which I usually keep to myself.

So, if I'm part of the problem, I'm truly sorry but I cannot find it within myself to be any better, having been treated the way I have by the vast majority of those I have voted for. I still vote, and I still vote Democratic.

This site is for Democrats "AND OTHER PROGRESSIVES". As long as I am generally supportive of progressive ideals - which I am - and support Democratic candidates for political office - which I grudgingly do since there is no viable alternative in most cases - I'm still supposedly welcome here, notwithstanding any posts that say I'm either "with the Democratic Party or against it."

The only issue I may have is with the phrase 'learned helplessness'. Feeling helpless often leads to giving up, not caring. I'm sure there are those who have withdrawn from the whole process; but despite a feeling of hopelessness, and newly reinforced cynicism, there are many who will work reestablish what were once the core values of a great, and dynamic, Democratic Party.

That thougt - "traditional Democratic values are only as strong as the Democratic voters who uphold and fight for them"

should be it's own OP.


Maybe a group tattoo, or something....

The people in this country who are disappointed, disillusioned, etc, that their favorite issue or cause is not #1 are understandably feeling that way, but they need to look at the larger picture. I know that what may be an important thing for me may not be important to my neighbor next door; they may have something else that means more to them. But I am a Democrat, and if they are a Democrat, then we both need to look beyond what we find most important to ourselves, and see the larger picture, and realize that just as there are many people in the Democratic party, there are also many issues that are important to those people. If power falls back into Republican hands, I cannot tell you how totally fucked this country will be. The Republicans have been systematically fucking us over since Reagan was elected. I don't know about others, but I've had my fill.

I have always been a Democrat, and even though I sometimes get frustrated with the leaders of the party, I know they are the far better choice than the Republicans are.

Excellent rant, Nance! :fistbump:

However we can certainly agree that electing a Republican majority would be a horrible fuck up.

That was a biological affair. But I assume you have taught them to stand up for their beliefs.

... and they are both liberal, pro-choice, pro-GBLT rights, pro-marijuana legalization, anti-war advocates.

Guess I did something right along the way ...

believe, you have a different opinion on how it could be achieved.

So far in your writing above, you espouse a big tent, then continue on to make asides that shut the tent.

I guess it is just puzzling for someone to be so....defiantly moderate. But I guess you have the same puzzlement over the close to far left types.

I keep forgetting that the left, the far left, and the in-between left are determined by people such as yourself.

Perhaps you could post a graph, so we all know exactly where we stand in your estimation - which, of course, is the last word on the subject.

“I told you so” may warrant kudos on certain websites, populated by those who deem themselves to be (despite all numbers to the contrary), the “real voice” of the Party – as though there is some victory to be found in the defeat of those who purport to be the “base” thereof.

You sound like you don't like the "I/we told you so stories" so that will maybe will be addressed after the elections.

But so you really know, we are at war for this country. We trusted the first strategy although mystifying, and went along with the others, but now, at this specific time, you seem to forget that the strategy is basically armoring kittens with litter launchers against a Halo Reach army.

So, no apology needed. You can revisit this though to strategize with "us" after the results and ask for our patented crazy, shithouse rat ideas.

... I am fascinated by "I told you so" stories - along with Vicsims tales and the like.

Fascinated.

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I just can't stand any more rehashing of old events... how already-settled legislation hasn't lived up to all the expectations (etc etc).

We don't have time for that... the next election is happening NOW, with or without the full participation of Liberals. We need everyone to be present, and concentrating on what's up next, not looking backwards and bemoaning the water that's already under the bridge.

I'd like to see people pledge that they will stop bringing up old business, until this election is over in November. I don't care how disappointed you are now, NOTHING you've seen under Obama has been as bad as it might get, with Republicans controlling the Congress next year.

WE DONT HAVE THE LUXURY OF BEING ABLE TO WALLOW IN NEGATIVITY NOW.

... I assume this is sarcasm, no?

And not just because "left fucking on" sounds like my realization about the iron when I'm two hours from home.


Terrific to see you back. You have been missed!

K&R


-

Under the guise of being "fair and balanced" to both the pro-Obama and (let's face it) anti-Obama sides of this battle, she actually dismisses many issues where "the left" disagrees with the direction Obama is moving - she does not "opine" (using O'reilly phrasing, really?) on "education..., ...the need for electoral reform, environmental issues, GBLT rights – and a myriad of other topics." Very convenient.

She uses language cleverly. "Supporting the current Administration (never knew the word required capitalization, guess I am disloyal) does not equate to agreement with its every decision." Those evil leftists have "labelled (sic) all of those who disagree with their every agenda item" as not wanting progress. We don't actually think that. We think the anti-lefties are being wrong-headed in too many/most of their positions and disastrously wrong in their tactics.

Maybe she just has different definitions of "the centrists, the moderately-left, the extreme left" than those who are critical of this administration. Some would hold that the party is made up of moderates, centrists, corporatists, and conservatives of varying degrees - the leftists (moderate and extreme) have been told to donate, vote, work and STFU.

After confessing to being guilty of failing "miserably in discerning the difference" between support/worship and criticism/bashing, she then proceeds to attack the more-leftish for their perceived/expressed greater cred as liberals.

After citing the bush "with us or against us" meme as the negative it was, she ends up by calling out people to "Pick. A. Fuckin'. Side." because "You’re either with the Democratic Party, or you’re against it."

There may be some validity in what she says, in some instances. But this administration, at this time in history is not the correct time to be satisfied or (damn me) even supportive of this compromising administration and Congress. By being so timid and, in far too many cases, actually regressive, the best, last opportunity for significant progress

Has. Been. Wasted.

That offense cannot be ignored, rationalized away, or condoned.


I realize that criticizing an esteemed presence here will further isolate me from most DUers (assuming anyone does not have me on ignore). I have come to recognize that this site has changed from primarily a lib/progressive site to something less position and more party-oriented.

DU - or rather, the people who are this place, provide a great source for news and leads to news. Just not so much for pushing a leftish agenda. Much like the party itself, most of us have become more interested in maintaining what position we think we have.

Well said, T Wolf.

... has, I believe, been succinct in her own personal views. You are free to agree or disagree, accordingly.

But the fact remains that you're either with the Democrats or you're not.

If you honestly feel (and I do not dispute the validity thereof) that this site has become something not to your liking, or one that fails to represent your personal political views, there are many websites/message boards that may be more in sync with your opinions.

I would suggest that you seek them out and post there.

This is not a STFU reply - merely a suggestion that you might find more like-minded, sympathetic ears elsewhere.

You are following up your "You're either with us or you're against us" with a "If you don't like it, leave" (aka "Love it or leave it")

I wish you could hear yourself.

You are not the poster I once looked up to so much. Or you are having a bad day/month/year.

I think you should listen to yourself.

Simply saying "This is not a STFU reply" does not make it true.

In fact, it rather reminds me of a boxer who waves off a good punch when he is hurt or a person that says "Want me to be honest?" right before lying.

Saying things on a message board don't make them true.

And I DO hear myself - and I never said "Love it or leave it." (But I repeat myself - saying things on a message board don't make them true.)

Nice try, though ...

I have very good reading comprehension. I earn my living that way. I've been reading since "forever and forever, amen."

As I read this response, you are suggesting that this person leave DU and go elsewhere, to "websites/messageboards that may be more in sync" with his/her opinions.

Who are you, Nance Greggs, to invite others who do not agree with you to leave DU?

A mark of intelligence is to be able to hold two conflicting thoughts in your mind at the same time, and not feel forced to choose one or the other, but to honestly reflect on both, and stay neutral, rather than picking a "fucking side," until an honest decision is made without pressure from outside forces.

Fanaticism has many faces.

... that if one finds this website contrary to one's core beliefs, one might feel more welcome elsewhere - as I have.

... where you have felt more comfortable. Inquiring minds want to know.

I would feel uncomfortable with any web site that did not invite and encourage open discussion. "Of one mind" on a web site or in any sitution smacks of right-wing intolerance.

Get over yourself, lady. Really.

And I think you should reread that post... really. Then get yourself a dictionary and look up "suggestion" and then think about how that differs from telling someone what to do. Then reread that post yet again. Learning is a good thing.

O8)

Now you understand.

... might be more comfortable on other websites that are more in keeping with their own positions/beliefs is "telling" them what to do?

Alrighty, then ... :eyes:

You don't determine what this website stands for. Just because you support the party at all costs doesn't mean that your methods in any way define the entire membership of this community.

The arrogance is astounding.

... on a website for Democrats, and others who are supportive of the Party and its candidates.

And you're right - I don't determine what this website stands for. The owners of this website do - and their posted mission statement is readily available, should you care to read it.

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... involved in the political discourse of my country, contributing to Democratic causes, and voting in US elections, as is my right and my civic duty.

Jesus, this "but, but, but, but you live in Canada" meme is incredibly tiresome. Never hid the fact that I do - it's been right there in my DU profile since day one. But there's always someone who thinks they're "outing me" ... tiresome.

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There are no Democratic organizations in Canada for ex-pats (even though there are tens of thousands of us living here). Organizations like Democrats Abroad try to hold meetings, but no one ever shows up. US citizens who live out-of-country never vote, or encourage other ex-pats to do so.

Yep, just doesn't happen.

:sarcasm:

Many of us don't have good health care and we are fighting for it.

I honestly don't think you're helping.

Especially on the internet. It's pretty funny actually.

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that there is an entrenched group here who lust after a DU that is little more than an echo chamber of kudos and banners pronouncing, 'My President, Right or Wrong!', but I believe (hope) they are still a small minority.

I, for one, welcome our new politruk overlords.

devotion. I'm sure you'll look splendid in brown. :patriot:

:hi:

I'd love to chat more, but these boots won't polish themselves!

:hi:

I missed a couple of corners with the iron the other day and I did not hear the end of it...

I look forward to the next time I'm called horrible names by some of DU's Most Upstanding Citizens! They only do it because they care!

:grouphug:

...And because they can get away with it.

Fascinating hearing someone residing in Canada telling other people that if they don't like a place to leave it.

BTW, the whole "you are either with us or against us" besides it being a false dichotomy, it is also woefully undemocratic. So if you have to recourse to use GOP-like fallacious memes to make your point, I would advise you need to take a honest stock of where you stand before you start giving advise to others.

Cheers.

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Ms. Gregg, you do realise you just instructed a member who doesn't agree with you to leave this website/message board. That takes a lot of chutzpah.

I agree with every fucking word.

you would not be one of them. You put into words my thoughts better than I.
Thank You.

I was looking for that phrase...thanks.

I think I'll add this op to Wikipedia as an example. Perfect! :applause:

"After citing the bush "with us or against us" meme as the negative it was, she ends up by calling out people to "Pick. A. Fuckin'. Side." because "You’re either with the Democratic Party, or you’re against it."

Well Done!
:patriot:

Thank you. :thumbsup:

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IIRC, Nance is an American citizen living abroad in Canada. As such, she likely votes via absentee ballot.

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I agree completely.

over the Constitution, it's just WHO does it? We only didn't like it when Bush did it?

This "timidity" theme is for people who can't accept the fact that we can't get everything we want by pushing other people around.

:thumbsup:

...But of course I'm not saying I disagree with the OP! No! NO! I agree with every single word of this OP, and any others that have been declared infallible and imprimatur at DU! In fact, I agree completely with some OPs that haven't even been written yet! Now that's loyalty!

You have put into words the things I have been thinking and feeling these past many months.

And the "with us or against us" argument the OP makes is tedious.

not for.or.in principle!

Those who believe that directly or indirectly giving the Republicans back the keys
no matter their "rationale" are not rational, no matter how well they might type!


Thank you Nance! :hi:

Used to be that wasn't even a question. The past few years, well, that has become the question.

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My home website? What are you trying to imply here? I've noticed that seems to be your tendency, somebody posts something you don't like you go into some sort of message control mode. You denounce, you use innuendo, you imply all sorts of conspiratorial nonsense in order to try to drown out what you don't want to hear. You seem to think that people with legitimate complaints and questions are part of some great conspiracy taking over the intertubes.

Now then, on my original question it is a question of whether or not the party is with me. We laugh and mock those on the conservative side of the fence for voting against their own interests, but that has become a problem with the Democratic party as well. When you are a teacher who is being dramatically effected, in a very negative way, by the policies of this administration, why should you vote against your own interests?

All politics is, ultimately, about the individual. Are you better now that you were four years ago, has your live improved or not under this administration. It foolish to think that many voters put the good of the whole ahead of the good for themselves. All politics is not only local, but ultimately it is individual. That is why questions like mine are both valid and critical. The fact that you try to cavalierly dismiss them with insults and innuendo simply proves that you are incapable or unwilling to deal in real life and realpolitik in an intelligent and logical manner.

... it has a very familiar ring to it.

I wonder where I've seen that very phrase before ...

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:sarcasm:

They are very into 'message control' which is the reason Rahm calls 'liberal bloggers' and tells them that to go after Blue Dogs in primaries is 'fucking retarded'. Yep, I think 'message control' emanates from the rightwing of the Democratic Party.

When the very people we elect move away from the core values and polices of out party, putting us in a position of voting against out best interest is exactly the time to ask that question.

Even if you don't acknowledge that? Those who are the leaders are to read your mind? And ignore everyone else, of course.

Most folks don't vote out altruistic motivations about some party or another. They vote based upon what a politician or party has done for them lately. Has the party helped them with some piece of legislation that improves their lives? Has the party taken some action that prevents a person from suffering a perceived harm? These are the judgments all voters makes. So again, the question become whether or not the Democratic party has stood with me.

Many people feel that the Democratic party has not only failed to stand with them, but actively worked against them. Teachers, anti-war folks, the LGBT community, those concerned about civil rights. With that many votes at stake, well, somebody in the party needs to be working on that question right quick if they don't want to lose a lot of state elections:shrug:

:eyes:

That it is completely devoid of reference to issues.

In fact, you take pains to avoid issues by saying that you are "not an expert" enough to discuss them.

In the end, your OP would still be true no matter what positions the Democrats took and that is where it falls through the hole for me.

Your unstated position is that you have to be on the side of the "Democratic Party" no matter where they actually stand with regard to policies.

This is a glaring flaw in your OP and what I found so disappointing.

It is also a recipe for disaster.

Uncritical support of this type can only lead to the inevitable -being taken for granted -and it is clear where that leads.

Sorry, but I will hold on to my memory of what the Democratic Party means and I will wait until they come back to the correct side of the fence.

If they lose in the short term, it is perhaps for the best even, if it results in them ultimately returning to the light side of the Force.

I'm sure you were aware of the bitter irony of closing with the inimitable words of GWB: "You're either with us or you're against us."

Perhaps you thought the irony was cute. Perhaps you thought it could be forgiven since you are on the "right side".

It can't.

... is people who think that voting for Republicans - or not voting at all, which is the same thing - think they are accomplishing anything.

"If they lose in the short term, it is perhaps for the best even, if it results in them ultimately returning to the light side of the Force."

This is the fate of the country at stake - not a video game. Do you know the difference?

May The Force be with you.

As for the adults, we'll vote accordingly - in real elections.

People here might complain, but come November, I'm pretty sure most of them (other than the trolls, and non-US citizens lke myself who don't have a vote) will vote Dem. Unfortunately, this administration was elected largely due to the efforts of people who are not necessarily rock-ribbed Democrats, and who have repeatedly been thrown under the bus in order to court the votes of people who wouldn't vote for a Democrat if their lives depended on it. If there is an enthusiasm gap between Republican and Democratic voters, it's not because the "professional left" is sulking because they didn't get a pony. It's because the WH spends more time attacking its own base than the opposition. Why not try telling them to "pick a fucking side"?

I still find your OP nauseating.

For some people, it's about power, authority, and control rather than actually winning elections to push forward progressive policy.

I have to ask everyone here what their solution will be come November, and in 2012? If you don't like what you are getting or not getting from the Democrats, what is your solution? Are you going to sit home and give this country back to the Republicans? Will you vote Independent or Tea-Party? What choices do you think we have that will help solve the current situation? When I read so many comments from people who say the Dems are not giving us what we want, that may be true, but at this point, there is a major decision we have to make in just a couple of months - Times-a-wastin'. What candidate have you decided is the best, or what party is the best. When it comes to voting, you DO have to pick a side.

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And it is totally :wtf:

I would have loved to have seen this posted in GD instead of GDPEC.

You think way too short term. It's not as if Obama and his Corporate Buddies aren't fucking things up too.

Purging the DLC/Corporatists in the party hurts us short term for sure but it's probably better for the future of the country because it will force the Democratic Party to either recalibrate or permanently splinter. Not unlike what the Tea Partiers are doing to Republicans.

Having four parties, one liberal/progressive, one Corporate Democrat, one Conservative Republican and one Tea Party Right Wing Whack Job is almost a good thing. It labels people correctly. Ends a lot of the muddled confusion that voters have when supporting someone. More issues would get serious discussion during a campaign and more candidates would get legitimate air time during it.

You can see the purging of the Republicans-in-disguise as a bad thing, but it's only bad short term. The forced change that would result in the Democratic Party would be the best thing for everyone long term.

In fact I argue that it is more definitively picking a fucking side, as you like to put it, then picking a muddled mess of lies and pretending that that person is a Democrat.

The country will not end after one or two election cycles. It's already been on a sad downward spiral and the corporate Dems have been more than enablers in this.

Just wait until Obama goes after Social Security... or wait, is that okay as long as a Democrat is behind the dismantling of it?

Rp

:patriot:

Let's vote for what matters: Values and policies, rather than labels and personalities.

to teach them a lesson, then you should be actively working for the R's

Or the teabaggers.

what complete fucking idiotic drivel.

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Great strategy. :thumbsup:

nuts have to say. :shrug: As a lifelong, third generation, union family, diehard Democrat...I would rather lose the upcoming election, and every election in the future, than allow this party to be taken over by the left's version of the "teabaggers", but that's just me.

The downright childlike naievete, sometimes displayed by "the left", is nothing short of breathtaking. The people I referred to in my post aren't Democrats, and for better or worse, it's high time that the Democratic Party made a very public split from these fractious elements (IMHO).

:shrug:

Your willingness to have the Democratic party lose big this year in order to stick it to the DFHs remains duly noted.

So you are willing to sacrifice the whole party if it does not do exactly what you want it to do, and yet us lefties are the intransigent childish ones who should be blamed. Ain't that a bitch?

Your post is rather enlightening and at least shows where all these shenanigans regarding us "evil" lefties are being projected from. Amusing to say the least...

Some "lefties" have been working against the Democratic Party for decades. They can't really convince anyone that their ideas are better, so they pout and try to take down what they see as the "establishment" Dem party. I've seen posts here, from so-called "lefties" that are downright anarchist in nature. As a Democrat, this is not the "left" I want to be associated with. I stand by my original assertion.

If Naderites, Paultards, and Socialist Independents think they have a shot, they should go for it, and quit trying to destroy the Democratic Party. They should build their own, just as the two "establishment" parties have done, but that would actually take work.
Third partiers should know that you can't pop up every election cycle with a list of demands, and expect to be taken seriously. Take Nader for instance...what the hell does he do to build a dream party for disaffected "lefties"? Does he actually do anything between elections to build the grassroots, besides taking constant potshots at Dems, and enabling Repukes?

As well as people telling the Left, including the OP in posts in this thread, that they might vote Republican or Teabagger.

:rofl:

Those posts wouldn't happen to be deleted, would they?

... in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” ~~Marcus Tullius Cicero

Before I go on, I'm not voting for any Republicans, period!

But I find a lot of extremism in this new OP (which does not speak to individual liberty but calls for group think again)and I hear, again, the old refrain which you've been singing for as long as *I've* been reading your posts at DU. "With us or against us" (the Dems)? How about less moderation in the pursuit of justice for the Bush era crimes? I know, that's old stuff, and we should just march on, over the graves, metaphorically speaking, of the little guys who got in the way and were trampled. We need to point our noses to the future, like some of those Marxist sculptures that extoll the virtues of the common man in service to the state! We can take up thinking again after we've won this next election, after which we'll finally get down to change we can all believe in. We've been too busy kowtowing to corporate interests, but everybody takes on too much at times, so let's forget the "mistakes" of the past and just move on.

One voice? That reference sends me hurtling back to the past again: Nuremberg rallies; French and Boshevik Revolutions, The Inquisition, etc. There is never one voice; there is only tyrannical control that is made to look like total acquisence on the part of the people.

You tell me exactly what high principles the Democratic party of today represents, and I will use my functioning brain to decide which ones (if any) are worthy of my support.

We are all over a barrel, and I, for one, will vote for some Democrats again out of a sense of ironic inevitability, not with any feeling that it is likely to make a damn bit of difference -- even if they happen to count my vote. But I'm sounding negative here, aren't I? There's a new religion abroad in the land and it's called "Positivity." Its evil opposite is thinking for oneself, and those who engage in such heresy are highly suspect.

"We are – and always have been, forever and ever, amen – the party of the Big Tent." Is this one of Aesop's fables? "Forever and forever????" Is this where we cross ourselves with holy water, and genuflect before the cross? I don't think the Democratic Party is that old, is it? Democratic ideas, yes, from ancient Greece, but even the Greeks have been around for less than "forever."

Sorry, I am not required, under the Constitution of the United States of America, to hold my "piece"(sic). (It's "peace," Nance!)
I'm not interested in marrying the Democratic Party, but I can imagine that someone reading this may be inclined to shout the reasons I should not be so joined, anyway, and if they don't do it, they'll need to forever hold their peace. I'd rather live in sin with the Democrats, taking what is good (there is a lot of good), and shutting the door to that which does not meet my standards.

You mean well, but you're preaching and finger-wagging again. And, as usual, you have the ardent support of a group of passionate lane-pickers! In my opinion, of course.

... between peace and piece, and chose my words accordingly. I have no issue with those who promote the former, but with those who use the latter to be divisive on this website.

There is much to be said for those who feel this party does not live up to its individual standards. That doesn't change the fact that we are (like it or not) a two party system.

Picking a side between the two options is a reality.

... the lesser of two evils anymore, because their conscience, and a knowledge of history, forbids them to do it.

You have me flummoxed with your "peace and piece" comment. What would be meant in this context by "forever hold their piece?"

... as in a piece of writing, a news article, an op-ed, etc.

There are some here who consistently post "pieces" that are negative and derogatory, or imply that voting is a waste of time.

I think those same people should "hold their piece" after the elections , i.e. "pieces" decrying the state of things because certain people were elected, and certain others were defeated.

No doubt we'll be seeing a lot of "if only so-and-so had been elected, things would have been much better" pieces - posted by those who didn't bother to vote to get anyone elected at all.

I've been a wordsmith for many years, and have never seen that usage. But we live and we learn.

I'm glad you explained that because the lower angels of my nature were conjuring up some pretty interesting images of what it could mean to hold one's piece. I thought of everything from the great unwashed packing heat to some more ribald possibilities which delicacy (and probably the rules of DU) prevent me from elaborating on here.

Ain't open dialogue a hoot!?!

... recently.

Many years ago, a friend sent out emails about an upcoming wedding he was attending. He said he hoped the priest would remind everyone to "hold their piece".

A few of us wrote back and said, "Don't you mean hold your peace"?

He said, "If you saw the names on the guest list (quite a few 'made' guys with familiar names from newspaper headlines), you'd realize that I actually DO mean 'hold your piece'."

As for the other possible connotation of holding one's "piece", I hadn't thought of that. But you're right - it does conjure up some rather, uh, interesting visions - not to be discussed on DU, nor indulged in while in the voting booth!

:rofl:

But I knew you were not making an allusion, you were making a mistake. It might be the most common pun in the works of Will.

... not a Shakespeare fan. And having been educated in a Catholic school that never taught the classics (unless you consider "Lives of the Saints" a classic), I wasn't even exposed to Shakespeare until later than most students.

Admittedly, I am often left with that "duh!" look on my face when people quote a Shakespeare line (often the only person in the room who doesn't get the reference).

So I'll take your word for it that it is a common pun in his works (just please don't make me read them!)

There! You an thank me properly when you can find the time.

... I once posted "hare's breath" here on DU when I meant "hair's breadth," and was appropriately corrected.

... that doesn't have the "edited by poster" label attached after-the-fact. :blush:

My glaring mistakes often don't "register" (duh!) until the post is up - and I scurry to correct them.

My husband, JeffR, pointed out my "mistake" in using piece rather than peace within minutes of my post. But I explained why I used that word - it has a particular meaning here, and I knew most people would get it. And they did.

You would love a trip to Stratford, Ontario. I sincerly recommend it. Opinions aside, you do love words, and I'm saying, pick a play or two, read the Cliff Notes-really- and then go see them. You will be glad that you did. So will whoever you take with you.http://www.stratfordfestival.ca/default.aspx

Someone may have been skipping English classes. *rolls eyes*

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And you know what, I don't think thats unreasonable. President Obama was given a lot of support, and so were our fellow Democratic candidates, that we worked hard for and voted for. And in doing so, we the people, gave them the Majority. And with this power, they still can't get it together. So to chastise people if they have complaints, well I think they have every right to vent.

I use to love being a Democrat, but now I feel somewhat like an abused wife. You give your time, your money & your vote and they turn around and vote the opposite way. And sometimes its like, here's a few crumbs, now shut up and go away. But you keep right on supporting them because...I don't know anymore. What I hear is "they are better than the other guy" and yet, many, many times they vote the exact same way.

Unconditional love for politicians is getting old, might be great for your kids, and your loved ones, but lets get real. I wanted to see this President & this Democratic Majority succeed, not just for themselves but for the millions of people out there that desperately need their help. It isn't about them or their careers, or their egos, politicians will always survive, make a ton of cash in the process, re-elected or not.

But what about the little guy or gal? They are hanging on by a thread. And what this party truly stands for, I'm not really sure of anymore. It's confusing. Unions, teachers, gays, seniors, young people, the "progressive left", beat us up and you can be sure we will come back for more.

I am truly bummed tonite, I have a friend who is dying of cancer. And while we spend billions on another war, and send more young soldiers off to God knows what, I can't help but wonder if these politicians ever stop and think of better ways to spend our money.

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be nice, if politicians felt like they had to earn our vote, instead of expecting it. That they would go the extra mile instead of caving in. That if voters are unhappy & they voice an opinion, maybe they will stop and listen. Maybe change course.

Well, time will tell. I'm not interested in voting for Republicans, it's just that I'm not that enthused about voting, period. Hope that feeling wears off soon.

That's all I'll add to this. You said it well enough.

Look like it or not Democrats, especially DLCers don't give a rats ass about the party base with the rare exception of needing our votes in November. The entire mantra of these rich corporate Dems is to basically be Republicans with a slightly more moderate social agenda (even that isn't certain with the recruitment of pro-lifers, anti-GLBT rights, anti-Social Security, anti-Health Care Dems).

They care about networking with the corporate elite, using and abusing their power to fatten their wallets with our tax money and in turn get a ton of corporate donations back for election time. They railroad progressives out of primaries and openly have recruited Republicans to run as Dems.

Unions have been destroyed yet are expected to turn out and spend millions of dollars to defend the very people that have not fought for them.

Gay rights activists are supposed to turn the other cheek as they see their rights ignored and dismissed readily.

Non-Christians get to see Obama go to Rick Warren's church and salivate all over being declared the right wing definition of Christian.

Civil Rights activists get to see Obama expand beyond what Bush wanted to do in terms of illegal wiretaps and secrecy.

Anti-War advocates get to see a phony draw down in Iraq (50,000 troops remaining does not = pull out) while Afghanistan, a place where al-Qaeda does NOT reside, sees an escalation of forces.

Health Care advocates get to see the President and his Chief of Staff purposely fuck them over by not allowing Single Payer advocates to the table at all. He begins negotiations right where Republicans would have gone for a compromise and negotiates rightward until HMOs and Pharmaceuticals, the ones who fucked the whole system up, get an even bigger gift by getting an increased piece of the pie... hell now they get the whole fucking pie.

Sure, there are a lot of issues in which the Left gathers round to work for but continuously the DLCers, and this dates back to Clinton (who cut welfare, signed NAFTA, DOMA, DADT, etc) want us ALL cut out of the equation. They truly view us as the "fucking retards" that Rahm so famously proclaimed us.

Obama has shown his second face as well. Going to Netroots conventions and asking us to keep fighting for what we want while purposely dismissing us at every turn and having Rahm and Gibbs insult us (the Gibbs one is clearly something the White House was pleased to let out there) only makes this worse.

We were promised change. Change from the most power grabbing, corrupt Administration ever is drastic. Not slight. Not following the same path as the guy you said you were changing us from. Change is fucking change.

So when we're insulted, ignored, treated as bastard children and then told, "Well Republicans are worse, so vote for us no matter how much we fuck you over because they'll be worse than us" isn't exactly the rallying cry that is going to get us to go along.

And they don't deserve our votes quite frankly. Most of them have been there too long and have very little in terms of values or principles aside from their value of the almighty dollar.

We SHOULD be forcing them to earn our vote. Voting for them now is equal to agreeing to how they treat us. And then the next two years will be even more of the same. And then we'll get "Well if it's not Obama, it's Palin and who is worse?"

That's not a legitimate argument. Choosing between two groups of people that seem to despise you is not something that motivates people to go to the polls.

And at this point, yes, we deserve something better.

If we have to throw a bunch of the bums out to reshape the party, maybe that's the way the cookie crumbles...

and to the DLCers or those who believe what this Administration has done is perfectly fine, this might be your "With us or Against us" moment to ponder for the future.

Rp

Thank you for expressing my feelings. It is a matter of principle...nothing more, nothing less. If the "other side" cannot understand that, then there is no use trying to explain it to them. They will never understand.

-P

In 2008 we proved that progressives were a powerful force. We need to keep up that momentum. Continue to demonstrate to the New-Democrats that we wont give up. We will fight for progressive legislation and not let the corporatists discourage us.

Today we need to concentrate on getting progressive candidates elected in local and state offices. Fight to oust the Blue Damn Dogs.

The reason that there is so much crap being dumped on progressives is that some people are worried that we will be a force.

NGU

Well said.
Thanks for bringing a breath of common sense and eloquence to the discussion.

does not make my heart sing with joyful gladness to do the Party's bidding.

From where I stand, one party is doing its damnedest to keep us down, while the other isn't breaking a sweat to help us up. The difference is there, but not that discernible to someone who's laid out on the ground.

"With us or against us" is *always* used by authoritarians and as a way to usurp power from the people. It is not a statement for anyone who believes in democracy to be proud of nor try and use to intimidate others.

Having said that, the vast majority here are democrats and will vote in the booth for democrats. Post like this that want to call our and label others are not helpful. And in fact it's a red herring to keep bringing this up.

... the same approach as Republicans.

Good thing you were there to catch me doing so, and to call me out.

:sarcasm: for those that (not sayin' who) need it.

How is this poster guilty of a "call-out" by responding to your OP? :shrug:

That si exactly what your OP is.

Wow. This si as bad as when you refused to admit you got the definition of "apologist" wrong, and called everyone out who corrected you. YOU wrote the OP, WE didn't. And, that is what your OP, and many of your posts are through this thread. It is a despicable thing to do, to call out a group on DU who is THE most loyal to the Democratic party.

Bullying is bad enough, but an environment in which bullying is allowed (or even condoned, when it's deemed to be done for a "good cause") is toxic to real discussion.

Like this post, "These Are the Times," for example.

Elections are serious business.

Nice one, ma'am.

Recommended.

K&R

Thanks for putting this together so succinctly, Ms. Greggs. Your writing is still awesome; I've missed it and you. Oh, and please don't let the naysayers get you down. They obviously didn't take to heart a word you said. But you knew they wouldn't.

Though there are several issues I disagree with concerning this admin, I'm convinced some people thrive on continual disappointment and negativity. I cannot be like that; you can't, either, and I'm glad.

:pals:

K&R!

I was going to op on something similar when I got up this morning.. and you have done a much better job than I could ever do of putting it all into words.

Those who say they will skip this election are enabling the GOP. This is as simple as that. And nobody who is a progressive can think that a GOP congress will be better for the smallest among us than a Democratic Congress. Nobody in their right mind, at least. Being for the people is making sure the best team comes to power. Not the ideal team (there is none), but the best. So, the choice should be clear for a progressive. Do you think that the GOP is really the same as the Democratic Party. If you do, please stay home, but dont consider you care about people.

This is not the worst of two evils. This is basic compassion for those who will suffer more. So: Say NO to Republicans. This should be as simple as that, and, even if I wished there was a more inspiring line, this should be enough to get any progressive out to vote.

:hi: :bounce:


:yourock: Nance Greggs!

YAAAAAAAY! :applause:





Now I will read the post.

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run up the white flag of surrender and see if anybody salutes.

Not voting and encouraging others not to vote is the same as surrender. You are guaranteeing that a government is elected that is not to your liking.

IF you want a government that is more progressive then the day to start is the day after election day with an eye towards the next one.

If you want a government that is more progressive the place to start is not a message board, it is at meetings with your local party leaders and making sure that those elected locally will reflect your views and that will eventually filter up as those views and politicians gain influence inside the party.

IF you want more progressives in government running up the white flag of surrender to the right will only drive the party more to the right and further marginalize the left.

to vote for a Democratic candidate -

I'm on the LEFT SIDE OF ISSUES. It's not a partisan thing. It's not a team sport.

Sure sounds like "Love it or Leave it" or "You're either with us, or against us", to me.

Those last two lines are the ultimate in reducing a complex situation to a simplistic and inappropriate demand. I expect rhetoric like that from Beck or Limbaugh, but not from you, Nance.

There is no "well, I support the Democrats in principle, but I'm not going to vote for them."

I see the usual suspects show up to piss into the tent. lol Could they be more predictable?

I enjoyed the post and agree with you. Thanks for taking the time!

Julie

Got your back...and dem candidates too.

until some people drew lines in the sand -- and it wasn't like minded people like NanceGraggs, that is for damn sure.

I have been liberal at least since I was in the 5th grade -- I know this because I pleaded with my parents to vote for Jimmy Carter. (they didn't). Looking back -- being a liberal is in my dna, and being a proud member of the Democratic Party is a choice.

If people don't like the party, they can work to change it -- or can leave. It is a choice, and one that I happily make -- to STAY. We are A big tent, and being part of a big tent requires Tolerance. There is a small but very vocal group in this tent that in very intolerant.

NOW it's general election season. As Bill Clinton once said, "In primaries you fall in love; in general elections, you fall in line". We cannot survive another Republican majority.

hearty K&R

and thank you.

K&R.

Recommended.

Awesome OP! Glad to see you posting again. :hug:

I will likely continue to be disappointed by some Ds - but definitely not by all. And even those who do disappoint me do not always disappoint me in everything they do.

But I know that I will ALWAYS be disappointed by Rs. Worse, I will literally abhor everything they do. They have no vision, only buzzwords, divisiveness and concern with themselves and their own interests - never those of a nation or the complex groups of citizens that make up a nation. And therein lies all the difference.

***********
By the way, it's primary day in Maryland (my voting residence). Any Marylanders who haven't yet voted, please do get out there and do so! I voted there last week by provisional ballot because my absentee ballot had already been sent to me where I live abroad. I fortuitously happened to be present in the state at a time when I could vote in person. Upon my return to the East Side of The Pond, I found my absentee ballot in my mail when I picked up an impressive accumulation from the post office. Maryland is a good state about such things. But now, of course, the absentee ballot will not be sent.

***********
Nance, I personally have missed your rants! For every one of your detractors, you have hundreds of admirers, so please don't let the detractors EVER get you down! Thank you! :loveya:

:yourock:

And happy to see your post.
We can disagree on the trivia, but on election day it's incumbent on us to ensure the lunatics don't get the keys to the asylum.

Thank you for posting this. Good strategy involves picking your battles in ways that do not lose the war.

:dem: :dem: :dem:

how soon they forget the previous hell we are trying to pull the country out of. Our President deserves our support even though we may not always agree with his decision. And as I have said before, our President makes his decisions based on the information he is presented that we may not be privy to.Such as statistics,intel reports,briefings,and heads of department concerns,and America as a whole.It is easy to be an armchair President sitting at home or on the computer.

I wish I could say it as well as you.

:patriot: