I simply don't understand the logic of some of the complaints about this administration.

The political conversation seems to go like this:

"We want more beans!"

"But I gave you more beans."

"Give us more beans!"

:banghead:

Or this:

"Why haven't you given us a new house?"

"I'm building your new house right now."

"But why don't I have a new house yet?"

"Because I'm building it right now, and that takes time."

"But we want our new house!"

:banghead:


The metadiscussions in American politics today seem so much like a spoiled child. I don't understand why so many intelligent, reasonable people are missing the answers that are right in front of their noses.

we want more beans!
but i gave you more asparagus.

You're allergic to beans... beans are bad for you... asparagus is what you need instead of what you think you want. We can give beans to a few, but if we give asparagus, all will get fed and all will prosper. If I give just a few people beans, then most of the rest of us starve, and we'll be subjected to your horrid farts.

Or just this strawman metaphor?

In so many different legislation Obama increased funding for AIDS and yet they say Obama didn't increase funding for AIDS which is false...it was part of the Health Care Reform bill and several other bills. He's trying to repeal DADT. He's right..why aren't these protesters heckling the GOP. The GOP gets heckled by the extreme right for not being extreme right enough and the Dems who are trying to get stuff done and all voted together are now being heckled when the people holding us back are the Republicans. Things are upside down here.

I saw that too. What I didn't hear, was what their specific complaints were. You'd think at least one of the news outlets would walk over and ask for some details beyond "protesting a lack of funding for AIDS".

"those" protesters have been heckling Republicans hard core for decades now. Constantly and without respite. Just this week, John McCain was a target of a multi level protest, some of which hit TV. Snowe and Collins had "those" people live outside their home offices, with full media attention and a Superstar drawing even more of it. The first time I protested a Republican event because of AIDS policy, Reagan was President. And it never stopped. Those who think it did, or that the Republicans do not get huge actions aimed at them simply have not been paying attention, for more than 20 years.
There are two communities in the US that are at the center of the AIDS crisis, gay people and black people, from day one. The first fundraiser I ever attended in public was produced by gospel stars and ministers in the African American community. Obama was at Oxy then, he did not attend to my knowledge.
The list of locations and events at which I have personally taken this issue to GOP faces could fill a page. And I hardly did a thing. Others did so much more. Rev Carl Bean, Larry Kramer, many others.
So telling 'those people' who have been the very vanguard of protest against the Republicans to go protest the Republicans is an absurdity, a convoluted bit of logic. Especially coming from a man who calls Republicans 'honest brokers' and praises Reagan as transformational. We took the AIDS protests to Transformational Ronnie. We did. Obama did not. "Those people" dug in and never let up, and millions have had better lives and full lives because of that.
But hey, we are pushing a million dead in the AA community alone at this point, and that is a tragedy in and of itself. A tragedy that some of us have been shouting about for decades now. Long ago we realized that some will always take issue. We don't care, it is about those in need, not about Ronnie, George, Bill or Barack. It is about the least among us.

:thumbsup:

Every single person who has a friend or family member with HIV owes an extraordinary, historical debt to ACT UP.

and I absolutely guarentee the very same poster, will post the very same ill informed post within a week, and be shocked we call them the ill informed person they are.

:applause:

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Or are you parrotting from some rwing site?

"We want more beans"

"Here's a coupon that's good for 10 cents off if you buy 2 cases of beans at Piggly-Wiggly next week."

"The closest Piggly-Wiggly is 3 states away."

"Yes, and while you are driving there, do notice all the stimulus money being spent on highways!"

:banghead:

Compared to what was promised in the election, what we have seen is too little, with implementation delayed until it won't matter.

to Candidate Obama.

"we want more beans"

(returns with bruises and tattered clothes) "here are some beans, I tried to bring more, but Ernie the Elephant and his band of thugs attacked me, with the help of a few of my own men (!), and stole a lot of them. I managed to get away with these, fewer in number as they are though."

"I refuse to acknowledge that you brought me any beans whatsoever because I am a petulant child with no understanding of the difficulty of obtaining beans.

I will instead complain loudly that you did not immediately bring me ALL the beans I asked for.

And not only will I refuse to hold Ernie the Elephant accountable, I will consider firing you and hiring him to serve me because at least HE knows how to get a hold of beans!

and it will not make a difference to me that Ernie just keeps any beans he finds for himself while you at are at least trying to bring them for me. regardless, at the end of the day, I don't get ALL the beans I want, so it makes no difference.

and then I will go sulk at the lake of fire dogs and curse your name."

Exactly

:applause: K&R

RL

Poet-boy

metal-head.

:hi:

RL

I love the serious-minded political discussion here on DU.

:rofl:

:rofl:

GO Bears!

:hi:

RL

(p.s. Sky and I are buddies just razzing each other...)

Who are you? e. fucking e. cummings?

Somewhere I have never traveled, oh, fuck it....

:rofl:

RL

Was pure political stupidity, no?

Including 'every republican idea' in the health care bill, for nothing in return. Legislation rendered impotent via compromise with republicans who wouldnt vote for it to save their own children.

He did run as a Democrat, no?

My paraphrase.

Never were and never will be a supporter of this president. It really is just that simple.

I am here to read post, obtain information and news. I have always supported this President.

I was still seething at another post!

:spank:

Liberals constitute a huge chunk of the Democratic base, always have, always will. Alienate your base at your own peril.

The republicans are NOT impressed by it and WONT vote for Obama because of it, ever.

Do or have you seen/acknowledged some of the good Obama has done?

If yes, then he wasn't referring to you

If no, then I'd agree that you likely are not a part of his base

Also, note that he said 'incessant complainers' he didn't mention liberals with a single word so why exactly did you automatically assume it was liberals?

My beef with Obama is very specific and I have outlined it above. I question his political calculations, which have left many Democrats feeling betrayed right before an important election. He was elected to fix things, not to seek 'common ground' and play footsies with a bunch of sociopaths. He needs to stop the political games (trying to impress the GOP, attacking his own supporters, reacting to every stupid thing said on FOX news, etc) and do what is right for the country.

Policy wise I am largely OK with Obama.

You actually believe this? Wow, stunning arrogance.

If the left and liberals are not the CORE of the Democratic base, please enlighten us as to who is?

--at least not in significant numbers. But luckily HCR is just a political liability, not a political disaster.

I worried about the former last year, but it looks like jobs and taxes are forcing HCR out of the headlines, thank heavens. That it would at least be a political liability was 100% predictable. Obama and the Dems KNEW that insurance companies would jack up their rates the way they always have in the past, but blame it on HCR this time. They knew that Repukes would lie about it and call it communism and every other nasty snarl word under the sun. They effing well SHOULD have known that the only practical way to counter this would have been to frontload the plan with benefits for a significant number of people who could not be ignored this year—really big facts on the ground to counter the inevitable really big lies. They seem to have belatedly caught on to this, because not a single representative who voted for it is running on that vote.

In contrast, an initiative on the fall ballot in WA State to put an income tax on individuals earning more than $200K ($400K for couples) was crafted intelligently. To help the lowest income people, the thing to do would have been to cut our very high sales taxes. Unfortunately, many surveys have shown that the low income people who would benefit most from a taxation plan that included a graduated income tax are the very people who are the most strongly opposed to any income tax. Furthermore, the political problem with a sales tax reduction would have been that not a single one of the beneficiaries would have noticed it. Take a bottle of Suave conditioner on sale for $1.29. A 9.8% sales tax would result in a total price of $1.42. A 5.8% sales tax would result in a total price of $1.36. Big whoop. In other words, this is a price difference that no one would notice or care about. Sure these pinpricks add up over time to result in one of the most regressive state tax schemes in the country, but low income people certainly don’t have the time to save up a year’s worth of sales slips and calculate their total tax and compare it to their incomes.

The taxes that the initiative if passed will reduce are state property taxes and the Business and Occupation tax, which is probably the single most idiotic way ever invented to tax businesses—on their gross, not their net incomes. 80% of businesses will have that tax eliminated. You’d better believe that THAT will be noticeable. Also, property tax bills are paid once or twice a year, and a 20% cut in a big lump sum is also quite noticeable. These cuts don’t benefit lower income people nearly as much, but they are sure the hell much harder to ignore.

The analogy to HCR is clear, I hope. Sure, some people are benefiting now, but they are nowhere near as noticeable as the outrageous premium increases that have been inflicted on large numbers of people. Following is a list of the mostly invisible people who have benefited

• Sick rich people. Only 2000 out of 4 million have bothered to sign up for the high risk pool. Yes, Virginia, 10-20% less outrageously expensive is STILL outrageously expensive.
• 23-26 year olds whose parents can afford to insure them. A larger group, to be sure, but plenty of people in that age group are left out. Still, there are enough to help downgrade HCR from disaster to mere liability, which is a helpful political effect of this provision.
• Children with pre-existing conditions. This s a very small group, as kids are the healthiest demographic of all—the vast majority are never going to be seriously sick. Not to mention which, insurance companies are now refusing to issue child-only policies.
• The people on Medicaid whose situation will not deteriorate because states are getting chunks of change that will keep their health care budgets from crashing. But they aren’t going to notice anything because they aren’t the ones who get the money—state governments are.

Now, assuming that congress had been as politically aware as the authors of Initiative 1098, and that we were not going to end up with single payer this time around, what might they have done instead? The simplest possible thing to have done would have been to expand Medicare, either by dropping the eligibility age to 60 or 55, or by taking a smaller slice of older people and adding a slice of the youngest adults. The administrative apparatus is already in place—no waiting until 2014. Lieberman was actually for this before he was against it. Charge 4% of income for voluntary enrollment, and tell the teabag whackjobs to STFU and just not enroll if they don’t want to. This would have created a huge group of beneficiaries that would have been absolutely impossible to ignore. Enrolling older people only would have the political advantage of directing major benefits to a demographic slice that has seen its unemployment rate go up by more than 300%, and which tends to supply much more reliable voters in off-year elections. This would have been by far the smartest thing to do if we couldn’t get single payer. So why didn’t they?

Enrolling older people only would have the political advantage of directing major benefits to a demographic slice that has seen its unemployment rate go up by more than 300%, and which tends to supply much more reliable voters in off-year elections. This would have been by far the smartest thing to do if we couldn’t get single payer. So why didn’t they?

Because in the end, HCR reform wasn't about anything more than saving the federal government money. All the other features, the pre-existing and the cap eliminations, was about dressing this up as reform so that they could restructure medicare and medicaid in a way to reduce the cost to the federal government. It's not that they didn't find ways to attach nice shiney objects to this bill, they did. They added the CHC's, elimated caps, and allowed children on parents policies for a few more years. But what this did was distract from the fact that they were changing medicare and medicaid. You can't JUST change medicare without a large hue and cry. So they put alot of bright shiney objects in there.

But anything such as you suggest wasn't going to make it in. It wasn't going to make it in because in the end it was primarily about saving the federal government money. Because only the democrats actually have to "pay" for their social/health care programs. The GOP can pass Medicare Part D and not worry about how to pay for it.

using deficit spending. wake up fools.

No, he was attacking a bunch of jack asses who wouldn't be happy with a free gold bar for life. I didn't see any 'base' there.

Nice try though

It's a perfectly valid argument that I actually believe would bear out in real life based on the 'never happy' that many represent as the 'base'. That's an insult to my intelligence.

There is no 'the' base. The Democratic base is not made up of one particular group with one particular set of beliefs. The 'base' is an umbrella of various constituencies, and none of them are disposable.

Which proves out my post pointing out the absurdity of the so-called "base".

Right?

Well, here are the numbers for my state:

In New Hampshire, the preponderance of undeclared or independent voters offers another reason for candidates to play down their party affiliation, Hodes said. Undeclared voters number 388,220, compared with 267,725 Democrats and 266,077.

Got that? Fully 42% of voters in my state don't belong to either party.

Base? A meaningless term used by angry people to make it sound like they are more important than they are. As pointed out elsewhere, the 'base', if it is to be defined, is a conglomeration of many different interest groups - especially in the more Diverse Democratic Party. Anybody who claims to speak for the 'base' is delusional.

President Obama and Dems in Congress should have made a plurality of those different interest groups happy enough to at least stave off massive Dem losses in the 2010 elections.

Got it :thumbsup:

You're the one making the argument. So back it up. What interest groups within the Dem party tent are going to save the party in November?

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We were driving home and he kept saying when will we be home?

and can barely keep food on the table.

its emotion.

Or emotional?

...just wondering

WTP(We the People): "We want more hope!"

POTUS: "But I gave you a few beans."

WTP: "But you promised us HOPE!"

POTUS: "Oh Wake Up!"


Or this:


WTP: "Why haven't you leveraged our majorities in Congress and given us a real health care reform?"

POTUS: "I'm building HCR right now."

WTP: "Actually, you're building INSURANCE reform. Without the Public Option, HC stays in the hands of Corporate America!"

POTUS: "You don't understand bipartisanship and real world politics."

WTP: "FUCK bipartisanship, we want REAL HEALTH CARE REFORM!"

POTUS: "Jeez, Professional Lefties are such a pain."

And when we order something...we damn well expect to get it pronto,
delivery free and with no added tax.:shrug:

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/aa/
Educate yourself. Learn the history in which you are living your life. Read that link and tell me if you are comfortable sitting on your butt doing zip about it. Let me know if you think this 20 years of death really is like wanting a new house, right now. 20 plus years of dead Americans. Beans. Gotcha.

If I remember correctly during the primaries you were a Hillary supporter. I tell you one thing had Hillary won the primaries I would of quickly licked my wounds and backed her like no tomorrow. IMO, the GOP is not an option.

I'll get back to you when I figure out how Im going to squeeze in yet another bill ... my 24% increase in health insurance.

What the fuck is so hard about that? Some things were/are beyond his control. Some are not, and those should be dealt with.

1. Pardon siegelman
2. Fire EVERY US Attorney who came on board while Smirk was in office. These people are by definition corrupt. Every one of them who WASN'T corrupt was fired by Rove.
3. Order the military to end DADT. Right now.
4. Go on TV 3 times per week and call Boner and McConnell out by name.

Obama doesn't want to offend his pal Simpson I guess.

:thumbsup:

:puke:

:eyes:

RL

Unfortunately, this administration has been politics as usual, with no actual change or plans for actual change.

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No Beans: There has been no CHANGE. Business is done in washington exactly the way it was done before. Meetings held behind closed doors, lobbyists running the show, legislation drafted under the guise of being for the public good, spun and served to the public in a way that is far less than honest.

No plans to build a house: There are no plans for change. It's the same people doing the same subpar job as before.

Yes, a few pieces of crappy legislation have been passed, which, overall have no significant impact, since the lobbyiests were so involved in the process they made sure there were plenty of loopholes for the real problems to slip through.

When you run on a platform that involves changing the way things are done and NOTHING CHANGES... don't be surprised when people aren't impressed with the BS you try to pass off as CHANGE.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=433&topic_id=375811

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=433&topic_id=260364

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=433&topic_id=222416

That's for starters, and if you're really interested in furthering your education, you might even read them.

And most of the things that have been done are more spin than reality or fall in the category of "so what".



Let's take one of your links... since the first one is from the most debunked poster on DU, i will look at the second.

"Passing the "largest" economic stimulus bill in American history. "
Here is a classic "so what". Because of their own spin, the stimulus is deemed a failure and is being used against them, since they failed to face the reality of the economic downturn. They told us if they DIDN'T pass the stimulus unemployment would get near 10%... well.. guess what? Why? Becuase instead of CHANGE, they went with the same on economists who got us into the mess in the first place.

"Ordering the closing of Guantanamo Bay military detention facility and abolishing "enhanced interrogation techniques." "

Neither of which actually happened.

"Setting a fixed timetable for withdrawing U.S. combat forces from Iraq."

Yeah, we just reclassified 50,000 of them and called it a day. Whooopie. Same old song and dance as past administrations.. no CHANGE.

"Ordering 21,000 additional troops to Afghanistan and enlisting, with modest new assistance, European allies in a new multi-layered strategy there and in Pakistan. "

More war... great change you got going there!


It's all the same thing. Nothing has CHANGED. If just getting a few things passed is the measure of an administration than bush was as accomplished as Obama.. he gots lots of things through congress.. huge idiotic tax cuts... a war with Iraq... stem cell restrictions... all things his supporters were quite happy about.

None of that is CHANGE. It's business as usual. The party in power gets to do some stuff. Unfortunately the stuff we have done didn't wind up coming close to meeting the promises made... The spin certainly does.. but the reality is far different.

Nothing has been done or attempted to address the REAL PROBLEMS. In fact, they have just gotten worse. Corporations are more in control than ever.. Lobbyiests have more influence than ever and the voice of the people has gotten smaller and smaller and in fact, that voice is now ridiculed when it dares to speak up.

So again.. there ain't no beans, there ain't no plans to build a house.

I've seen what Obama can do and you know what.. he ain't got no pankake mix!
We've gone from YES WE CAN to THIS SHIT IS TOO HARD.

because none of your ridiculous spiel even remotely resembles the legitimate complaints people have against this administration.

Almost as much as I love blue links.

"Here's some more beans."

"I put them in the ground, came back the next day, and there wasn't a giant beanstalk!"

"..."

yep:applause:

so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Just keep doing your best.

Surely you can do better than throwing out a ridiculous allusion rather than responding to this person's post.

Unless the two of you were in French Lit class together, your little barb is nothing but insult and invective. Tant pis.

I feel it, too. No, we weren't in the same class, but the OP has posted openly about those struggles. She admits she's confused here, which accounts for the lack of content and name-calling in the original post. It's frustrated name-calling, not malicious.

When a post is this lacking in actual substance and yet so clearly emotional for the poster, it's hard not to respond with a maternal feeling.

Sometimes the kindest and most helpful response is a supportive arm around the shoulder and reassurance that it's okay to be confused.

Actually, you need to go back and review Austin or other speech-act philosophers of language. The OP expresses no confusion. The "I don't understand" locution is not literal. It represents what we might call a perlocutionary act.

You must be new in graduate school, too! :rofl:

Just meting out a dose of your own medicine in a snarky, satiric way.

on Mount Wilson there is a telescope that can magnify the most distant stars up to twenty-four times the magnification of any telescope. This remarkable instrument was unsurpassed in the world of astronomy until the construction of the Mount Palomar telescope, an even more remarkable instrument of magnification. Owing to advances and improvements in optical technology, it is capable of magnifying the stars to four times the magnification of the Mount Wilson telescope. I can see that you have a problem when particularly vapid and juvenile posts on DU elicit a justified response. But if you could somehow put the Mount Wilson telescope inside the Mount Palomar telescope, you still wouldn't be able to detect my interest in your problem. :hi:

Can you give us a real post where you actually show what some of us have been upset about and explain why we shouldn't be upset about that thing. You are buying into this administration's bullshit talking point that all criticism from the left towards this president is illegitimate and childish.

So please tell me what things liberals have been upset about and tell me why we shouldn't be upset about those things.

Nothing surprising here. Nothing informative. Nothing useful. Only a bit of divisiveness aimed right at democratic voters.

Like health insurance "reform". Yay, we all get health insurance!

Uhm, care? That's something else. If you can afford it, hey, it'll be awesome.

Great.

So what shall I do with this bean can in the interim? They make lovely book ends, but even so.

Oh, and the can of beans are costing people money when they can't even eat them.

Hooray for beans!

A pony made out of beans? Dare to dream.

"The other guys are worse, just fucking vote for me whiner."

Like that?

...Democrats with legitimate grievances.

This should be locked.

---bvar22
A Proud, Loyal, FDR Democrat
with legitimate grievances

Support? Never witnessed it.

and trashing people with legitimate complaints and concerns? Actual support of the Party (and therfore to the the President we assume) is something people do in the "real world" where folks are really suffering and not here online where a contingent act in rapid response mode whenever required. And I assume many of the folks expressing the concerns you and yours are always putting down
are basing their concerns, again, onwhat they see the failings of the Party and the Presdient are meaning to more real people.

How the hell could you witness that from your computer screen unless you ahve really powerful magic glasses?

Good, I hope. :hi:

I don't have smilees, too difficult for me to figure out.

displaced

This about a "Messiah" not delivering the miracles people fantasized on during the campaign.

I assume you are litterally equating those who are trying to stop the needless death from AIDS as wanting 'beans'. As whining children. I wonder, is it easier for you to dismiss the African American death stats, or the gay stats? Which groups wants 'beans' and which wants an new house, right now? The African American women 24-35 for whom AIDS is the number 3 cause of death? Are they the bean wanters or the house demanders, those dead women? You tell me.

The angry left is a propaganda machine created by the right.

ARE WE THERE YETTTTTTTTTTTTTTT?

~No, chillen, we arent' there yet. I am just driving a car, I don't have a time machine.~

BUT WHAAAAAAAAA! why can't you make us be there yet!

keep heading toward John Wayne Gacy's house.

and when the White House says, ''Be patient, I'm not through yet!'' we can't help but notice that in other remarks he says, ''We are almost out of beans and have to start putting the people that get one bean at a time on a diet,'' then he goes back to ladling out nine beans at a time to the rich.

Who doesn't know or sympathize with anyone who has to work for a living and can't coast on their inheritance or undeserved bonuses for the rest of their lives and five or six generations after that?

But the same could be said about the Hillary, Edwards, and Richardson campaigns back in 2008. The sad truth is that Democratic politics has become dominated by wealthy kids from connected families who went to brand-name colleges. The days when an average person could work their way up the Democratic ranks without a Cornell degree are gone.

Person do messaging, not a trust fund baby or corporate toady.

The position of president deserves the respect of the best education. Whether that is Harvard, Cornell or Princeton I don't know. Ivy league schools are overrated, but they are considered to be among the top schools in the country. I'd rather see MIT, Cal Tech or GA Tech but they don't produce law and business graduates which seems to be where politicians come from.

His degrees from Delaware and Syracuse wouldn't fit your criteria, but he's probably the brightest voice on foreign policy in my adult lifetime.

After 30 years of doing nothing but dissenting against conservative Presidents, and being betrayed by Clinton, the left doesn't know how to react when we have an ally in the White House.

The administration doesn't know how to react when they have an ally in the left.

That's what people do when they're criticized. They sometimes respond. And the original critic should understand that rather than crying about what a poor oppressed victim they are that someone they were shooting at fought back.

People are saying give us a solution to the problems and the answer comes, "well we'll solve a piece of the problem and you can STFU!"

given their often ham handed remarks (even at this late date when they ought to tossing out the red meat).

Hence- the enthusiasm gap and what's been an astonishing turnaround for what has to be the sorriest bunch of Republicans to ever "grace" the national stage.

Here's a clue: scolding, admonishing and insulting constituencies, issue oriented groups or progressives in general doesn't work- and serves only to compound the problem.

already. It's clear that the health insurance industry are being ****es and that leads to a public option. Then once in practice that will prove government works single payer here we come but how folks can't wait when it took thirty years to break everything is silly, I mean 2 years come on unreasonable. Abadoning all hope after 2 years is just a bit odd to say the least, I agree.

If they do, you still think single payer has chance?

that he never pushed for single payer using his bully pulpit.
At least he could have campaigned strongly for public option.
He did not even do that.

SO we end up with a HCR bill full of mandates, no public competition
to private insurers, no restrictions on rate hikes, no shopping for insurance
outside of state lines, no curbs on frivolous law suits, and 30-40 million
guaranteed more customers for private insurers.

Seriously, sounds like a list of republican complaints about the bill. Frivolous lawsuits are like 1/10 of 1% of medical costs.

I have not seen a single democratic ad by candidates touting HCR bill
for which they voted.

are reality - the things that HAVE been done. My God - what the Hell??????? If we don't stand behind President Obama and the Democrats, where will we be? I mean seriously. Yea, let's have the Teabaggers run the country :sarcasm:

Teabaggers who don't believe in evolution, don't believe in the voting rights act, trading chickens for surgical procedures. My God - WTF???????????????????