Mr. President , even a TEMPORARY extension of Tax Cuts for the rich will cost you a lot of your base

On the Bill Press show this morning people were IRATE that a temporary extension is even being considered!

And any extension for the rich is a HUGE victory for the GOP and it looks like they kicked you ass already after just winning the election.

Do not give them a win on this!!!! It makes you look weak to the voters and especially your base!

If President Obama has a bill on his desk that extends tax cuts for the wealthy for even 6 more months and doesn't veto it then I don't know what in the world the man will stand up and fight for.

from both the right AND left ...

I understood and tried to explain how HCR went down ... I am a MODERATE democrat ...

But, this is asy ou noted the line in the sand ...

This shiite is THE difference between us and them ...

this should be THE issue we don't bend over on and I want to see our President leading the charge!

Ever

Well if everyone sacrifices their tax cut then we are good to go.

They were ill-advised to take when they were first enacted.

The Bush tax cuts are what has been destroying the economy over the last decade, why on earth would we want to extend them any longer? If the tax cuts are extended, the economy will just continue to rapidly decline, and if they make cuts to SS, UI, and social programs for the poor to pay for the tax cuts for the wealthy ... we'll probably be in a full blown Great Depression by 2012. IMO we would be in a Great Depression right now if not for the safety nets FDR implemented.

He has already stated that he wants the middle class cuts made permanent. The only thing left to compromise on is the taxcuts for the millionaires. He gave away his negotiating position again. Before it even started.

Just bring the bill with the middle class cuts up for a vote in the lame duck. They'll easily pass the house. And if the Republicans filibuster it in the Senate, that's absolutely fantastic. We'd get to spend the next two years reminding the public that they are paying more in taxes because Republicans demanded more money for Wall Street.

Which is precisely why the Republicans won't filibuster it.

No matter how strong our argument. They will destroy us. Didn't you know that? :sarcasm:

in the Senate who don't want the tax cuts to expire, they may not have enough votes on the dem side.

The only one I can think of who might join a filibuster would be Nelson. At the same time, I can think of quite a few Republicans who would have a very hard time maintaining a filibuster.

The conservadems that lost their seats don't have a reason to oppose it. They won't get any ego-stroking out of their opposition, and their future careers as lobbyists would benefit from being 'good soldiers' now.

the top 2%. They do get a tax cut under the last plan I saw--just not the huge whopping one they had before. Vigorous application of talking points about "how much do the rich need?" and "demanding more than their share" could go a long way towards getting some Dems into line.

Even a temporary extension would be the full-on admission: "Yes, Virginia, it IS a 'Plutocracy'". Give these mothershitters an inch and they'll take 15 miles. We would never see the concessions end. We will never be wrested from the toxic grip of "Trickle Down" and the all-encompassing damage it has caused to the working/middle/poor classes.

they won't really love him and he can't tell the difference lol

he's like a guy desperately wanting to be loved by the country club crowd

There's a great big Democrat base outside of DU that includes alot more than far lefties.

:eyes:

or how you try to spin it.

The base are the people that believe in the Democratic platform, and no, such people are not the extreme left, that is a Republican talking point.

They like to say they are, but they've made it abundantly clear over the past two years that they barely even like him. The President would be a idiot to alienate the rest of the Demoratic party and independents in order to please a very small group that is never happy and doesn't like him anyway.

It is not about personality or hating or loving someone, I leave that in the realm of friendships and dates with lovely women.

You have to understand, it is the platform that made me a Democrat, not love or hate of a politician.
You really don't understand people like me at all.

I am a little concerned that you talk as if it is about love or hate of some guy that you are very fond of.
Please by all means, love the guy, just keep politics and political goals within the realm of policy decisions.

I will say I like him less every time he does the opposite of what I supported him for, I voted for him based on what he said he was running on.
No one likes being mislead even if one tries to separate the personal from the policy.

I like him, supported him, and continue to support him.

But he has to brawl on this issue, no compromise on the over 250k.

I would like to be sure however, so please explain.

Wall St and K Street control over the federal government and our tax dollars is a good thing to these ilk.

Lefty as in the people who think that McGovern, Carter, Dukakis, Che and Rev. Wright are the voices of the DEM party.

They are not, thank God.

In fact I have never even seen one thread myself personally, where a poster claiming to be the base was spouting Che or Wright as authoritative of the party and yet so many of us are described as extreme lefty, yes extreme, I thought that was more accurately a description of Stalinists, not Democrats that actually believe in the platform.

I am a huge fan of FDR, do you consider such Dems part of the base or the Che crowd?
Because in reality even FDR's second bill of rights had nothing to do with communism.

Personally I find most of what you support to be moderate Republicanism and I do so based on historical comparisons.
You are free to register however you like tho, and I do understand that moderates are no longer allowed in that party so I can see why you find yourself stuck with us extreme leftists known as traditional Democrats and why you would prefer to change the party to mirror your more natural home.
I just find it disingenuous and a little sneaky.

...it's a right wing talking point,it has nothing to do with reality.

by the Right wing if the Repig party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_critics_of_the_New_Deal

Thank God FDR was able to go around his DEM base and get support for his centrist new deal from moderate & centrist voters.

Just like now, the DEM base opposes Obama, and Obama will have to go around them if he is going to be as popular and successful as FDR's far centrist presidency.

Petition to protect SS.

"President Obama's "bipartisan" deficit reduction commission just proposed slashing Social Security. Over 100 bold House progressives are saying this proposal is dead on arrival."
http://act.boldprogressives.org/survey/ssletter_main/

From your link...

"Howard Zinn, historian at Columbia University whose book A People's History of the United States criticizes Franklin Roosevelt and the New Deal for not going far enough to redistribute wealth in the U.S. during the Great Depression. Zinn argues that the New Deal was primarily concerned with saving American capitalism, and that it should have been more radical in nationalizing American industry and promoting economic socialism. Other radical-left historians such as Eric Foner and Alan Brinkley have made similar criticisms of the New Deal."

I'll take one Howard Zinn over 1000 Obama the appeasers any day of the week...

*lol*

I was wondering the same thing?

Even a large group of Republicans don't want the tax cuts for the rich.
BTW the base is the group that actually votes for the dems and works on the ground for them. Without the base they got nothing. The mushy middle doesn't knock on doors and phone bank.

Get a grip.

didn't show up or knock on enough doors to tell people what they were getting into. This isn't a far center right country at all. You get to know the facts.

Alerted

other than the Republican Party's ability to GOTV more effectively than the Democratic Party. And that based on one mid-term election they will repeat the meme, "The election proves America is a far-center country" as if it were true. (Why weren't they saying "The 2008 elections prove America is a far-left country? The Democrats won both houses of Congress and the presidency, after all.)

The GOP uses fear -- abject, mindless fear of "those not like us" (i.e., other races, religions, sexual orientations, scientists, academics -- did I mention race?) -- to get their people to the polls. Fear has been shown to be a much stronger motivator than reason.

When polled on individual issues -- health care, reasonable regulation of industries which have shown themselves to be irresponsible, public education, the environment, national and state parks, clean/renewable energy, job security, social security and medicare, even the use of the military -- the large majority of citizens (70%) favor the traditional values of the Democratic Party, or at least the pre-DLC Democratic Party. A recent poll found that when asked similar questions the country which most resembled the answers is -- Norway.

"America is a center-right country" has been proven to be false, yet is repeated again and again by the Republicans, along with "tax breaks for the rich create jobs," and "the liberal media is keeping conservatives from getting their message out."

For that matter, the meme, "tax-and-spend Democrats" is a misnomer. The Republicans are more than willing to run up the deficit by increasing the size of the federal government and spend unnecessarily on weapons systems we will never use. And their solution to everything -- tax breaks. The Republican motto should mirror Wimpy's: "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today."

"Tax and spend" is a debit card. "Borrow and spend" is a credit card -- the "debt tax," if you will.

Our country is center-left in its social orientation. Spending no more you can bring in via taxes or tariffs is true financial conservatism.

The last "election" proved that money talks and bullshit walks...

Where the fuck were you?

Here we ago again- the far left is going to punish the countrty unless they get a pony.

'Real' Democrats voted for Reagan? How many Bushes did you vote for?

There has been so many times, since Obama took office, that I thought I would see the change I was promised. Time and time again I have been let down with a harder thump than the last. The Cave-In Corporate Democratic Party is doing just what they were told to do since taking office. When you surround yourself with the same old players that have created this fiasco how could the results be anything but the same. I suspect Obama will again cave in by extending the tax cuts for the super rich, followed by cuts to social security and medicare. I just wonder how much we can take of these right wing policies before we all cry "ENOUGH"!

..whether Obama gives in to the Republicans on these tax cuts or not.

When push comes to shove in this 2 party system, the "base" understands that Obama is vastly preferable to any GOP/Tea Party.

All this blather about the base abandoning Obama is just silly talk. The President and his advisers know this perfectly well.

A lot of Democrats are feeling betrayed. That is not a good sign for getting votes.

...and vote.

If the base isn't fired up we will lose some energy and excitement. That much is true. But honestly, considering how bad the other side is, Obama knows full well when election time rolls around it won't be hard to motivate people to the polls if for no other reason than to stop the Republicans/Tea Party.

It really isn't the base we have to worry about. They may get angry, but they will vote.

Just my opinion anyway.

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Three months into his presidency we wouldn't be in this situation.

try and keep up.

If the Far lefts could have sat down and followed instructions for five freaking minutes, we would not have all these messaging problems, and we could have passed a more centrist, more mainstream HCR plan too.

We should not expect the majority of DUers to understand adult, reality based politics.

One year with a presidential kill-off in 2012 will make him a hero.

THIS is the shiite that seperates us from them ...

I will vote him, I will put my yard signs up ...

But, I won't die for him if he extends them ...

PASSION drove the last two elections - we won big two years ago and got our butt kicked this time ...

He extends these tax cuts, people won't die for him, and that will be his end - and I NEVER said he would not win a second term until the last day ...

It was very hard to get volunteers this time around and next time if there is no improvement he won't get it. He has alienated a good portion of his base particularly newer voters. Change had better come quick because no one will trust a damned thing he says campaigning.

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At some point there will be a third party, the DLC dems had better wake up to that fact unless they want a permanent minority which maybe they in fact do.

we're the ones whose views used to considered mainstream Democratic positions.

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...on something as clear as this.

Extending the tax-cuts would be his "Waterloo". That seems to get him fired up.

The term was idiotic the first time.

... sure, the plurality of voters would like to see the elimination of the upper level tax cuts, but they are NOT willing to give up their own tax cut to see that happen.

If you've got any polling that supports this, I'd love to see it.

I would like to see a poll as well.

.... all anyone needs to do is ask a friend, family member, coworker, stranger on the street, "would you rather have lower taxes? Or would you rather Obama and the Dems not look like wusses?"

The President needs to extend the middle class tax cuts and he needs to do whatever he needs to do to make that happen. Two years from now, no one will remember who "caved" to whom, but they WILL remember less $$ in their bank accounts.

At least in my neck of the woods, Washington state. Initiative 1098, which was an income tax for incomes above $200,000 ($400,000 for couples. That initiative went down and it went down hard. Even though I do not think the state did a good job of promoting it. The state had Gates Sr. promote it and it was a lackluster attempt. However, the ads against 1098 were effective. They were clever, making it seem that the state could somehow tax the middle class.

I honestly believe that if this was a different economy that the state would of been more proactive in promoting the tax. Perhaps during a friendly economy more people would be willing to give the tax a chance. It is the economy and I am sure the folks of Washington state are not the only ones worried about tax increases. No matter how small that increase might seem to those on the radio talk shows and DU.

Edited to add- Only one county out of the entire state voted yes on iniative 1098. San Juan county by something like a percentage point.

http://vote.wa.gov/elections/WEI/ResultsByCounty.aspx?ElectionID=37&RaceID=103953&CountyCode=%20&JurisdictionTypeID=-2&RaceTypeCode=M&ViewMode=Results

;)

Make the Republicans stand there and defend why they want the rich to get MORE tax cuts while they fight against middle class cuts.

Fucking make them filibuster!!!!

They refuse for some reason to make them do it, it is a lot harder to do than it is to merely threaten, that is why so much was blocked without even making them earn the block.

I don't know why that is the policy in the Senate, I can only guess.

IS the actual policy

moderates, centrists, far-centrists and center rights.

The far left fringe is just a teeny, tiny sliver of malcontents who pretend to be the whole base.

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Did you type that with a straight face? Oh, wait. ;-)

The "moderates, centrists, far-centrists" are part of that malleable middle that can't make up its damn mind election to election, and the rest of us are at their wishy-washy mercy. Fuck 'em.

Why did the Democratic candidates aligned with your
positions get ABSOLUTELY MASSACRED whereas the
Progressive Caucus fared pretty well?

Quite honestly, you're full of it.

Tesha

In case you forgot

n/t

....never had any core beliefs to begin with.

n/t

:spray:

:yourock: :rofl:

OK, that one made me laugh...

Why... just look at the last election...


...oh... wait.

Never mind.

LOL!

n/t

n/t

...means you don't even know when you've been defeated.

...Yesterday he claimed he was 'center right' which is another term for republican; I am sure the mods forced him to stop.

Alert is your friend

We cant work with the far right unless we can let some center right values creep in under the tarp of the Big Tent.

Most political strategists will acknowledge that America is a center right country.

Dont you watch TV?

Next you will tell us that people who support Max Baccus, Joe Lieberman and Rahm Emmanuel (Democrats who agree with me on this) should be banned from DU too.

If so, we deserve it.

If I was Obama, I would be triangulating the crap out of the Tea Party Newbies with the RNC GOP regarding putting more into the deficit.

In fact, one way to insure the base is to make the extension one or two years. Two years would mean that this issue - just for the wealthy - returns right before the 2012 election.

I would bet that this would force the House to try to pass the extension before the election. In the Senate, the Republicans will need to write the bill - and I hope they get NO Democratic sponsor. But even with one, the good Democrats can filibuster it. What is good is that the Republican base will push their Congress people to pass something - and they will fail. Better yet it is an issue where we have public support. This will be a good vote for us.

(That logic is why some Republicans are against the idea of permanent for us, temporary for them. )

1. One year would put the extention at the end of 2011, which means Republicans would have to fight for it during the campaign season.
   
   
2. "In the Senate, the Republicans will need to write the bill - and I hope they get NO Democratic sponsor. But even with one, the good Democrats can filibuster it."
   
   If they compromise on a one-year extenstion, it should come with no strings. Democrats do not have to allow such a bill to come to the floor for a vote.
   
   Let them fight it out and make it an issue of Democrats not wanting to bring a bill offering tax cuts for the rich to the floor.

Still, I think allowing the tax cuts for the rich to expire would be a disaster for Republicans. Dems would fall out of favor with some in the top 2 percent, but most likely those who vote Republican already.

vote in 2011 (or 2012) that extends the tax cut to the wealthy - just as the Republicans allowed Kerry/Feingold to get a vote in 2006. They gambled then that the vote would hurt the Democrats and they were very wrong. Here, I think we would be right to think the Republicans spending time arguing for extended tax cuts for the super wealthy will make them look bad.

The GOP has a certain ideology - they believe in cutting taxes, especially on the upper income brackets. They stick to that come hell or high water. What do the Dems really believe in anymore? What's the ideology that they will fight tooth and nail for? More and more, it seems nonexistentt.

As part of the base I volunteered 4 hours a day after work for three months straight, and contributed about half the limit (I woud have in fact donated more but I already had gotten myself in real trouble with my bills giving that much).

I no longer have a job, health care that I can afford, and I am too sick with lymphoma to be able to spend time like that for any candidate.

Your meme is wrong "Only the agitators on this board that never supported him to begin with."

I have seen him go against many of the things he ran on, I have seen him favor the right and not those like me that worked so hard for him - and now that he is planning on abandoning his claim that he would not continue the tax cuts for the wealthy along with his choice of panel members that are making recommendations to dismantle much of the safety net while lowering taxes on the rich and corporations, I will not be able to support him as he is causing damage to me and so many of the poor and working poor, just like the Republicans.

There is a reason I do not vote for Republicans and the same reasons have begun to apply to him as well.

I was misled (I believe), or he is to weak to fight for anything he said he believed in.

If he enables cuts to Social Security in the name of a balanced budget then he will not only be lying (SS in not even part of that budget), but will be doing damage that even a Republican could not do to me, as they say, it took Nixon for China and will take a "democrat" to gut SS.

How can I support him then without being a hypocrite that enables hardship for all the others that work for a living and are falling by the wayside?

It is unfortunate, I had such high hopes based on his campaign rhetoric and I feel quite naive to have believed him and convinced others to do the same.

I will not enable my own downfall or the downfall of all the other 98 per centers. It would make me culpible and unlike a Republican, I will not vote against my own interests nor against the interests of the majority of citizens.

Put away the "you never loved him anyway meme" it is simply a false assumption based on your own narrow view clouded by love for a politician.

I will vote for any that fight for me and the other non-corporate citizens of this country, but he is no longer on the list any more than any Republicans running.

I hope we have another choice or he changes direction towards the people that need him, else I will have to leave one spot blank on my ballot.

He has done this to himself, against all odds, it takes a whole hell of allot for a Democrat to lose my support, hell I even vote for Shumer even tho I think he is too friendly to banks.

He has done this to himself and I supported him very strongly when he was saying very different things than what he has actually done.
If you want me and others to support him, try to convince him to stop turning right, I really want him to change and allow me to support him again.

Your claim is simply incorrect, at least as far as I am concerned, I suspect there are many others like me as well.

I am pragmatic and realize what the President has had to deal with when he took over. I don't throw a tantrum because he hasn't done every single thing on my wish list. I know what the other side has
to offer and it is absolutely nothing. In fact, the other side wants to overturn Roe vs. Wade ( my particular pony) and this is terrifying.

I clearly do not understand disallusioned voters that expected President Obama to turn Washington into Utopia. I am with Van Jones " It is Yes We Can" not Yes He Can.
Asking for a challenger will result in a Republican as Pres., we only have history to show us the folly of this idea. Not voting, or voting Republican is the other option which is voting against everyone's
best interest.

I will stick with the pragmatic, left of center President I voted for, not the deity some thought they were voting for. It is exhausting reading all of the he's not left enough, doesn't stand for us enough
posts, as if he had a magic wand or tyrannic control over this country. We can continue to cut off our nose to spite our face and allow the republicans to take over Congress ( the legislative branch
that creates the laws) We are the ones we have been waiting for, except we choose to watch tv and do nothing.

Instant gratification country deserves everything it's going to get by sitting on their collective hands.

or politifat to see all of his kept promises. Of course, facts are not high on some people's list. These have been posted many times, either you don't want to read them or these kept promises don't
mean anything to you.

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/rulings/promise-kept/

So you may be right, but not so much from the actual citizens.

Does anyone know how complicated/expensive/rip-your-hair-out that would make filing a 2011 tax return?

He just never appears to want to.
He is the party leader you know.

There is no way to justify the extension.

Meshuga? :D But really, the result of them exposing themselves would still be a failure to extend tax cuts for the middle class.

I am going Meshuga! :-)

it's written all over your "name." :)

n/t

The compromise, in order to get the Conservadems and Repubs. on board, seems to be to temporarily extend the cuts for the rich as long as those for the middle class would be extended permanently.

It is also a considerable compromise to keep the "middle class" cuts (other than the bottom bracket which would see a 50% increase) at all in the face of 10% unemployment, at least a 2 trillion dollar infrastructure deficit, the low stimulative impact of a gigantic expenditure with ZERO structural return, and the general fiscal insanity of borrowing trillions of dollars so people have extra Starbucks money that they don't even notice till someone mentions taking back what they didn't notice.

The tax cuts are largely counter-productive or impotent and straight out of the "starve the pig and drown it in the bathtub" handbook.

I wonder if the stimulative impact exceeds the fucking interest. This is bad overall policy.

.

in the meantime with this temporary extension..I don't trust them and any of the new bluedogs something is cooking for Jan but the media wants to keep our eyes on so called republicons infighting,they always come together we need to be keeping our eyes on the Dems and remind them who they are suppose to be working for...

The talking heads like David Gergen throw out this shit like he is setting up the terms for what we need and will accept. Watch the repugs they are coming on singing the same song AGAIN!The bluedogs have been all over tv today especially Andrea Mitch and they are telling us we have to accept the republicon plans..

Let your voices be heard. I am pretty sure Pres. Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid are on the same page, but it can't hurt to support their resolve.

It is not hard to email your representatives and also discuss the issues with other Democrats, why do you just assume no one is trying to be heard by this administration just because they also like to discuss Party issues with other Democrats? Really, what made you even type that?

And no, you can't speak for others.

Neither can I, but I sure type anything I damn well want in order to encourage people to do something other than worry about what might happen despite denials by the President, the WH and Speaker Pelosi.

He needs a 2 year extension for many reasons

• it will be the ONLY WAY to keep middle class tax cuts, the GOP do not care about anything but winning, It they can not have the rich tax cut they will not allow the middle class tax cut. If you think they can get it done before the next congress comes in you are crazy
  
• "read my lips", if he does not extend them for 2 years that will be the only thing the GOP runs on in 2012 "OBAMA RAISED TAXES" True or not (expiring is not raising, plus only 2% will be effected) that will be what the run with. How did it work out for Bush #1 again?
  
• He/Dems need trading blocks to get stuff they wants like extended unemployment and others. Dems govern for the people which means THEY WILL compromise if it helps the people. Repugs just govern for the next political win and do not give a shit about us
  
• this issue is a win win for repugs, they get the tax beaks or the can blame Obama for raising taxes. But the repugs want it permanent, you give then two years. After you win a 2nd term you can do anything you want. That includes wearing a white hat and saying "excuse me while I whip this out"
  

Obama need to make a full press attack stating that now is not the time for taxes to be raised on anyone, we are just now recovering from the Bush hole and in 2 years we will be out of it and the tax breaks will no longer be needed. He needs to continue the attack for TWO YEARS. You need to condition the lemmings that the expiring tax cut are needed. That is something they did not do over the last 2 years and that is why many people wrongly believe the expiring tax cut will hurt them They let the repugs spin the tax cuts as a good thing. Spend the next years and educate them correctly

I sucks but is need for the people and for the Dems in the future

As a pragmatic, far-centrist, I could have not have said this better myself.

would have had a better claim to their threat had they did something over the election that actually would strengthen the President's hand rather than weaken it. My preference is not just for the tax breaks for the rich to expire but for all the Bush tax cuts to expire and use the money to do something far more stimulative than tax cuts. But for everyone who is now screaming about this, they should look in the mirror and ask what they did to keep this from happening.

The elecion results are quite clear-loyal moderates & centrists stood fast by our side, while Liberals, well, they just did what Liberlas always do.

The few moderates & centrists who voted for Republicans did so b/c Liberals did not work hard enough for Obama.

Sorry to throw cold water on your liberal bashing.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/07/weekinreview/07marsh.html?ref=weekinreview

There is no reason for (and no one can fiscally justify) extension for the tax cuts for the wealthy even if temporary. If Republicans don't want to give the middle class a tax break then it is beyond our control. Let them take the political risk of denying tax cuts for the middle class.

the real problem is that most people can't even consider that proposition seriously.

In congress wanted an extension. Too many conservative Democrats continues to be a problem. Been that way for20 yrs now

come out against it bringing his base back.

Thrown under the bus...