This is very hard for me but Obama is now dead to me (metaphorically)

The torture that the bush 6 allowed ... that the Spanish Govt. wanted to look into
was done in large part for 2 reasons:

1) To force people to give up a link between Iraq and 9/11 that was never there
2) To force people to give up the bogus locations in Iraq for WMDs that never existed
and tell of the people who were behind making WMDs that were never made.

And now it turns out that the Obama Administration blocked the Spanish Government's
efforts to look into those crimes.

The Obama administration also has allowed Karl Rove to walk after he rigged the system to
put Governor Don Siegleman in jail for protesting a dirty election in Alabama in 2002 ...
and Karl showed his thanx by running an anti Obama campaign in 2010 w/ unlimited
money from businesses & other countries

In 2008 in Ohio I got up @ 4:30 AM and worked until 10:00 PM to make sure that everybody who was
legal to vote and lived in the precinct I was working @ could vote and that their vote would be
counted because I believed Obama's crap about change and now it turns out that he was and still is
actively protecting the thugs from bush/Cheney ...... :grr: :cry:

Obama should remember the thanx that Bill Clinton got for letting the Reagan / Bush
people go on Iran/Contra ... an impeachment over a blow job.

I hope he proves me wrong but right now I have a very sick feeling in my stomach.

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willful neglect when it came to BushCo, but to find out he has actively worked to keep war criminals protected from prosecution moves it all to a whole new level of disgusting.

It is indefensible.

.... sleep w/ rattlesnakes and they will be thankful for keeping them
comfortable they will not bite him when he rolls over in the middle
of the night.

that the vast majority of GOPers want nothing but to sink a knife in his back every chance they get then he has become a danger to himself and his country.

supporters been utterly clueless and naive?

One thing I've been thinking about is "coolness", how cool has always been associated with the rebel and how Obama's cool endeared him to the Left. After seeing Obama's lack of fighting spirit, I think we all need to rethink the value of cool. Does Obama cave simply to preserve his cool?

way style, whether "cool" or "anger" have often led people to support a leader and then assume that his (her) goals are the same as our own. With Obama, assuming that he was a "rebel" is not something that one would get from his books or his career. I would argue that we saw what we wanted and ignored that Obama was swept in because we (and a large number of our leaders) were looking for someone who could be a break from a dysfunctional period. He was given the 2004 speech and used it exceedingly well to set a perfect tone consistent with John Kerry's message, but his own. Later, because of that and the demeanor he had in the Senate, he was pushed to run as an alternative by many of his then peers. Nothing in that suggests a rebel - it does suggest someone seen by his peers as having incredible talent and the strength of character to be a President.

Although his was the insurgent campaign to the "establishment" alternative, what is clear is that it was the establishment that not only approved his run, but pushed him to do it. By 2007, there was no viable insurgent candidate who the establishment did not want. (I will explicitly include John "chameleon" Edwards in that statement. From 2002 onward, the media gave him credence as a candidate, well beyond what his resume would dictate.) Even the second tier contained no rebels.

kr

We are all tainted by the actions of these thugs.

Sid

That's the funniest thing I've read all day!

So many worked so hard. I had my hands full (job, child with serious issues) so I was not able to give time, but I did give money and my endorsement to friends.

More important, Obama embodied hope and change. Hell, he picked up the mantle of hope and change and waived it proudly.

Now is the death of hope and change for so many. The wind is knocked from our sails.

We can come back - but it will take some serious fortitude.

We'll just work for it elsewhere.

"He picked up the mantle of hope and change and waived it proudly."

:banghead:

Thanks.

:P

Good catch!

I figured I'd screwed up on the version of "mantle", but I was pretty sure that was correct.

D'oh!

Wouldn't surprise me, actually.

metaphorically

thanx

will probably ease his passage.

I fucking hate George Bush and Dick Cheney more than anyone can imagine and would love to see them in a perp walk, but to be honest, I think there are more important things we need to be worrying about right now. And if your support for Obama hinges on this, I think your priorities are pretty screwed up.

I mean, hell, FDR locked up thousands of innocent American citizens and took away their homes and land by Executive Order, but nobody was ever too concerned about that. Truman needlessly dropped nuclear bombs and nobody seems to care about that.

Let's concentrate on healing the country's economic woes. Then we can go after the assholes.

And there can be no healing of a nation who has done great wrongs without accoutability. This President, he claims to be such a huge, devout Christian that he feels he has to not just oppose equal rights for some minorities, he also feels compelled to announce that God agrees with him. Yet when confronted with torture and illegal war, fraud aginst the people of the world, he shrugs and wishes to gloss over it, and in fact, lies about it to help cover these crimes. Abu Garhib I say when he says "Well, I'm Christian McHolypants and 'those people' are not sanctified by God like my kind."
He is at best a raging sanctimonious self righteous hypocrite. His posturing against GLBT people on the basis of his fucking faith, when contrasted to his actual actions make him an example of the worst traits in politicians.

I completely agree with the OP. The active involvement in protecting six torturers by a Democratic president is simply stunning. There is no defense for it. None.

Just 'moving on' to the economy, let's not think about those tortured souls, over 100 of whom were tortured to death, in U.S. custody, is simply not an option. This problem will never go away. There are millions of victims created by these criminals and they want and deserve justice.

Sweeping a massive abuse of human rights under the rug? I thought this was on of the main reasons for electing Democrats. At least it was for me and many, many other people.

This was a major issue during the Bush administration. How many times were we told to just be patient regarding holding the criminals responsible.

How many threads reporting on the Spanish Court were there on Democratic forums, greeted with applause, because finally someone was stepping to do something about these egregious crimes against humanity.

Little did we know that the man we helped win the WH was secretly putting pressure on that courageous judge to protect those monsters from prosecution.

Many lines have been crossed by this WH. But this is simply unforgivable. I will not ever support anyone who supports torturers. This action on Obama's part, he knows that children and women were brutally tortured at the direction of these evil men, reveals far more about him than anything else we've seen so far, and it is shocking and should be to any decent human being.

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It's only protecting war crimes. Not like Obama would try to slash Social Security or engage in ludicrous war-making.

Buck up son. ;)

I dunno?

He is leader of the Executive Branch of the United States of America (federal government only).

He is not the leader of any other country in the "free world."

Neither does he "run" the U.S.

Leave this type of idiocy to the freepers.

... I TRIED to convince them they should make it so the Executive branch had more power when Dems were in control, but they wouldn't list to me.

that congress has anything to do with telling the military to stop electrocuting peoples' testicles?

I'm pretty sure that's the president's job.

We also need people to campaign for politicians to win back seats in Congress so we can have a true majority again. Why doesn't anyone care about this? Does no one care having blue districts across the country and fighting Republican gerrymandering?

Is beating up on Mr. Obama the only thing some folks care about?

Yes.

Hardcore haters on the left and the right. They live to lambaste the guy.

You gotta give it that.

Waterboarding pales in comparison. You may be right.

on a Democratic board, we'd better have a good reason.

We ought to be direct. :)

When there is a thread when a person can solely focus on policy without the bashing, RW talking points or disrespect, perhaps. Other than that, it is clearly political theater used to distract and divide.

We all agree that:

1) Torture is still taking place in our name in dozens of places around the globe.
2) We have prevented the prosecution of the perpetrators of torture here and abroad.
3) Both these things have happened either because they were ordered by the President or because he has chosen to do nothing to stop it, though he has the power.

To support the President, we must determine that a certain amount of torture is acceptable due to political realities. How much is acceptable in this ugly calculus of realpolitik?

I say none.

How about yourself? I believe that you are a good person, and that you and most everyone here want the best for the US and the world. However, I think we all need to examine our assumptions of what is acceptable in a leader to permit in our country and in our name.

Personally, I voted explicitly against torture. I got very excited about the prospect of it ending. Even till recently, I figured that maybe the President was struggling mightily against the torturers left from the previous regime. The news lately has proven otherwise. If the President will change his course, which he can do at any time without appeal via his power as Commander-in-Chief, I will return to the fold. But till then, what can I do that isn't in some way craven and wrong?

1. I hate torture. I dislike the fact that the Bush Administration will not face charges for his countless violations and wrongdoing from the top all the way to the bottom. So we agree there.

2. I also accept that this world has grown very complicated due to the mess W., the RW and PNAC has made. It was all about money for them. The wars helped put money in the coffers of the Bush family and their allies. Yet their avarice caused so much drastic hardship at home. But the RW doesn't give a damn. They only set their sights on getting Mr. Obama out without caring about the lives of the American people or the fate of this country. Their agenda and issues trumps anything else. Who does that sound that sound like?

3. Mr. Obama has to deal with the political realities of this country by intricately dealing with his enemies and his allies alike. The issues are many and they aren't itemized like a shopping list. The POTUS has to juggle the different issues affecting this nation all the while facing the hostility and demands of both parties. Within that maelstrom of anger and hate, he has to use his skills as a legislator, Constitutional lawyer and a negotiator so that the changes that will help this country in the long run will happen. However, there are people very invested in making him fail. These factions very much love disaster politics because in chaos, they profit--either politically or financially.

They profit when the court of public opinion and people of both parties stir up trouble and hate against the President. Therefore, constant chaos hides the accomplishments that are being made by this Administration due to the difficult and often caustic dealmaking process that has to be done to help ordinary citizens.

That's why you can't just scream about how ineffectual Mr. Obama is. Idealism is being politically naive and never gets the job done. He is trying to work daily in not only a hostile environment; he has to deal with people who often second guess his abilities, who see him as beneath them, and those who openly insult him with no remorse. And that's no different than the ugliness amongst everyday people too. He's working with a large cast of antagonists on both sides of the political spectrum and still gets things done by working with the system handed to him. He should be lauded.

Instead, people like the simple fix and get mad when political realities block their way. Yet, they keep the blinders on and continue to thrive on the chaos. Unfortunately, their behavior makes it harder on everyone else--including the President.

I'm all for idealism, and am known for it at times myself, but I'm so tempted to fall into the "it has its place" trap.

More to the point is the moral compass that guides us. It's an old Quaker tradition to torture ourselves with hypothetical paradoxes and conundrums-- like what would you do if you found someone twice your size raping your wife and there was a gun handy... The point isn't to find an answer, but to prepare oneself should one meet such a Hobson's choice.

I don't know what I would do as President with so many options and perils in the choices, made all the more complicated by the political pressures and ramifications. I do, however, know what I would like to see done, but I have rarely seen what I would like to see from any President or politician. What I end up doing is not looking for the results I desire, but the qualities of the people who will ultimately make the decisions. Where is their moral compass pointing?

I still believe Obama understands what the right thing to do is, but I don't believe he has the political chops to make much of it happen. Truth to tell, I'm not if anyone has the chops right now, so this isn't a strong criticism of Obama. There is an old argument about whether one prefers a strong leader you disagree with or a weak one you agree with. Right now I see gridlock and stalemate in Washington, but I'll still take Obama and his attempts to change direction over the likes of Shrub and Reagan who changed us in the wrong direction.

The kibitzers can moan, groan, and whine all they want, but they merely confuse the issues and acoid some real questions.

I'm not 100% happy with Obama 100% of the time, and I don't like what he did with the Spanish government. But to say he is dead to me? No, won't go there.

No band wagon here because the facts are the facts and they say he is protecting the people
who took us to war on lies so as to make money and gain oil.

W's war in Iraq is a stain on our country's honor which can not be swept under the rug. We tortured
people (had children raped in front of their parents in some cases) in order to find some sort of
justification for that awful war and protecting the people who ordered such crimes has no place
in my country. Obama was a professor of Constitutional law and knows the difference of right and
wrong.

Although I do not like Obama for many reasons (and I DID vote for him & will do so again if necessary), what I find the MOST reprehensible, even more so than his lack of support of his base, is his willingness to go along with secret detentions and claiming the authority to assassinate American citizens just based on his fucking say so. What's REALLY repugnant is that he's a constitutional scholar, and he fucking knows better. He's cynical and disingenous, and I really loathe him. Nonetheless, I'll vote for him again if I have to, becuase the alternative is so unthinkably awful.

as if it's relevent to the OPs argument anyway.

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You're so disillusioned, you must have a clue.

what's next?...The title alone is disturbing

:rofl:

DU is the new DUmp. This place has become a landfill for shit like this. Just go look at the front page and top tens. I have to post from several hundred miles away because I can't stand the stench of this place.

That poster should go look at some of the locked threads. That will give you a good perspective of where some of these folks are coming from. I saw Skinner in here locking threads yesterday. Oh and the tombstones seem to growing in numbers as well.

I think at this point it has become a pissing contest. Who can write the most outrageous thread and get the most recs because essentially they are all saying the same thing, all from the same folks. I can see them at their keyboards now "Hey I can do better than that, watch me wax poetic to get me some rec's and +1. Oh I got to be outrageous the last poster just say F the president, what can I do to top that?" Yup, someone out there is hoping to reach the magical 1000 recs but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I say 500 recs is the most they will probably get.

Yes it is actually quite funny. This place is going the way of DK and FDL. Not because the disgruntle are growing in numbers. Hell I see some of the most off the wall ones getting the hammer all the time. It is because folks are just quietly leaving and do not care to post anymore. Pretty soon they will be talking to themselves, +1 and giving high fives, talking about the lockstep crowd lol. I think that GD has been like that for quite some time. Now it is time to take over GDP. Too much competition for the most outrageous disappointed threads over in GD, you know.

.... my post was poorly written those were my honest thoughts and I got no pleasure in posting them.
My post was based on what I thought was real world facts and if I got any of those facts wrong I am sorry.


BTW I have not gotten a new cell phone because I treasure the following text message:

"We just made history. All of this happened because you gave your time talent and
passion to this campaign. All of this happened because of you. Thanks, Barack"

that didn't really unite us all that well. Now that we're allegedly running the show, it's become a free-for-all around here. Gotta argue and whine about something, so find something-- and the President is the likely target.

I've noticed the inmates taking over the asylum, too, like many other sites, froups, and organizations. Many of the best people here just wandered off because the noise is just too much to deal with. Time is precious, after all, and why not use it more productively than wading through hundreds of ignorant and nasty posts...

Even if it does not net a single rec, you will know that everything you've typed is the truth.

Particularly the points about content-free bitching getting the most recs and folks getting more and more ridiculous in order to outdo the previous fool whose OP was all the rage. Yes, GD has been like that for ever a year and with that area rotten and soiled, now the sights are set on the rest of DU. And they'll win too because as you also noted, sane folks with legitimate life and work experience who aren't interested in anarchy are leaving and/or posting alot less. Why devote time, and more importantly money, to such a thing as this?

Japanese prison camps...or LBJ's accomplishments for Vietnam. Not that I think that discouraging Spain from pursuing charges against Bush rises to the level of either of those historic lapses in judgment and ethics, mind you.

so it's ok.

...and over again.

Obama isn't a dictator

But he doesn't have to keep torturing people, or protect those who do. He has the power to stop it this minute.

Not one person has to be tortured in our name. He could end it at this very moment. No man can force him to do so. That it continues in secret prisons, at Bagram AFB, at Guantanamo, and even on our own soil is a god damn inexplicable tragedy. Our generation will be remembered for it.

Now, all illusion that they are even working to stop this evil is removed.

It is not O K. :(

And I'm pointing to history as proof that other Dem presidents have done some downright tragic and awful things, along with some very good things. Trying to maintain some perspective here.

He swore he would stop it in his campaign. It was a promise. What changed?

whatever charges they're going to pursue? I don't think it was the most ethical course of action, since I do believe the Bush administration committed crimes in the matter of waterboarding, etc. That said, I'm assuming the investigation was discouraged to keep Obama's first two years from being totally consumed with what would be portrayed as a politically-motivated witch-hunt-by-proxy. ("Why won't Obama tell Spain to leave our former President alone??") Politically understandable, but not "OK". But, as I've pointed out, some bad shit has come out of otherwise good people--they can't ALL be dead to us (figuratively speaking, since some are literally dead). Everyone's a mixed bag.

Where do we draw the line if not torture and the protection of it's perpetrators?

I appreciate that you're trying to be evenhanded, which is a rare quality these days, but how much torture is acceptable due to politics?

There was also the case of the journalist that was killed in the shelling of the Palestine Hotel. And there was the case of a Spanish man kidnapped and tortured, I don't remember where or if by us or by some other agent.

That't not a mixed bag, it's a pattern of behavior.

And recently I saw someone ask "What kind of leader would say 'Make Me Do It'".

DU would have HATED FDR.

:rofl:

You're saying the things I'm thinking.

http://bsalert.com/artsearch.php?fn=2&as=2315&dt=1

Noam Chomsky, 1990. And never a truer sentence uttered.

This was NEVER going to happen. It would open the biggest can of worms in history, it would effectively - for better or for worse, depending on your viewpoint - destroy the American government and lead to every living President on trial somewhere or other. It was a pie in the sky, head in the clouds, preposterous fantasy to allow yourself to believe Obama would march Bush and Cheney, shackled physically and destroyed mentally, into a courtroom. It was never going to happen. They took illegal activity to great extremes, in a just world they WOULD be liable, but you can blame Obama no more than you can blame Kennedy for massively escalating Vietnam, Johnson for doing the same, Nixon for failing to put numerous culprits on trial and so on and so forth.

The best I can hope for of Obama in this respect is that by the time his tenure ends, the government and its offshoots has been operating a bit more humanely. That the extremes the deplorable Bush administration went to are toned down, and the seeds for a safer, less bloodthirsty future are sewn. I don't think anyone, not even the President, would be allowed to escape unscathed by trying a previous administration and exposing the country's actions in such a visceral manner. The only thing I can apply to Obama here is....well, he's doing what they all do. Sweep it under the carpet, and I think they probably have to. I'll make my judgment when the dust settles on his reign, hopefully one which will not be cut short by a Republican Presidential victory in 2012.

had to watch it in the morning. I am just tired and cold now.

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:shrug:

:mad:

rec'd

:thumbsup:

at least that will save me from believing in "hope" any longer. :-(

The bottom line is, This is about Human Rights! Bush and Cheney crushed human rights issue with a premise of 'let's do it to them before they do it to us...' Obama's actions put U.S. politicians above the law with a hand of force and continues to do so.

To further the point Bush and Cheney also crushed an elected government in Latin America and left the Obama Administration to finish the job (which they gladly did). Not only did the Obama Administration put a progressive administration out of business, but made sure the present administration was good and conservative.

Something most people knew before going to war in Afghanistan, that the area was a hot-bed of corruption. Now the facts come out big time that corruption in Afghanistan is accepted by the U.S. Government. This corruption is accepted so the U.S. Government can claim that progress is being made in this international effort, facts and people's lives be dammed.

The United States of America use to be able to use the leverage of, 'Fix your human rights issues, and we will work with you with our publics acceptance!' Of course, Bush and Cheney did away with that psychology and used the bully technique Hollywood line, "Go ahead, make my day!" Obama had the perfect chance to change that. Obama did not do that, and with the above alone he fucked-it-up-beyond-redemption for generations to come. It is gone, destroyed and its not coming back anytime soon!

As for the people who say, 'Obama did not have a choice', of course he had a choice, try again...

but Obama and the others' neglect should not make you feel your effort was worthless - or diminished. Imagine McCain/Palin. I suppose the Bush family has so much power - it's been decided George W. and the crooks would get away with it... It seems like everyone folds in the end, when faced with the Bush.

Working for Obama notwithstanding. So much cowering during *dauphin's reign and now so much rage against this n***** who has not fufilled all of your projected fantasies. So many undereducated people looking to vent their rage... We've seen what has happened in your own state. Voices of reason and solidarity relegated to the dust bin. I do feel for you.